StarTalk Radio - From Puppets to Performance Capture, with Frank Oz and Andy Serkis

Episode Date: November 2, 2018

Yoda, Miss Piggy, Cookie Monster, King Kong, Gollum, and more – Neil deGrasse Tyson, comic co-host Adam Conover, astrophysicist Charles Liu, and Bill Nye explore the world of puppeteering and performance capture with Frank Oz and Andy Serkis. Listen you will.NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/from-puppets-to-performance-capture-with-frank-oz-and-andy-serkis/Photo Credit: muppet.wikia.com [CC BY-SA 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0) Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to the Hall of the Universe. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And tonight, we're featuring my interview with filmmaker and puppeteer Frank Oz. Now, if you don't know who he is, he's the man behind some of pop culture's most iconic characters. Like Miss Piggy, Cookie Monster, Yoda. like Miss Piggy, Cookie Monster, Yoda.

And joining us in studio just a little later is actor and motion capture pioneer Andy Serkis. So let's do this. So my co-host tonight, comedian Adam Conover. Adam. Hello, everybody. Hi. Thank you for having me. You are creator and host Of the TV show

Adam Ruins Everything Exactly And you're just proud of that Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah Well, we try to, you know Break down common misconceptions Tell people the hidden truth

About, you know, everything That they thought they loved It's just temporarily It ruins it for a second But then hopefully We hope that by learning more You know, you enjoy that At the end of the day

So you're the geek That people don't want to bring To something that they're Trying to enjoy Yeah, yeah I'm the jerk at the cocktail party Who day. So you're the geek that people don't want to bring to something that they're trying to enjoy. Yeah, yeah. I'm the jerk at the cocktail party who just read an article about that. Not exactly. And also joining me, friend and colleague, astrophysicist Charles Liu.

The City University of New York, Staten Island. You are our resident geek-spert. Geeks, did we just invent that word? I love it. You are a fountain of knowledge of all things pop culture, and that's why we have you on this show. So, and we're featuring my interview tonight with puppeteer Frank Oz. Many people probably know the characters he's created better than they know him, if they know him at all. So I just had to ask him about this

sort of semi-anonymity that he might either enjoy or resent. Let's find out. So, Frank, how many people know who you are? Because when I looked at your resume, it was like, this guy's everything I ever cared about in life, from childhood up through adulthood. You know, that's a real joy for me because I'm a private person. I'm not looking for stuff. And so I can walk down the street. So you just said you're a private person in front of three cameras in national television.

Just in case you weren't thinking this through. In past tense, I was a private person. Thank you. But I love the fact that I can just, I have friends, celebrity friends who can't go outside. I love going outside on my bike in the city and I love just buying my beans and doing my laundry. You know, all the mundane things in life I like to do. The people that buy yachts and stuff like that, I hate that stuff. I love the normal stuff and I love the fact that nobody recognizes me.

Well, I think being a normal guy manifests in your work because your stuff touches normal people in fundamental ways. Actually, okay, I'll get serious for a second, but that's one of the reasons why I do it, also to stay part of the human race. But the other reason is if you get in too many limousines, if you get too many assistants to help you, then you totally lose touch of the people you want to touch. So, Charles, you knew who Frank Oz was? Knew who Frank Oz was, I did. She was also Bert of Bert and Ernie on Sesame Street,

as well as Grover and Cookie Monster. And he performed Miss Piggy for nearly 30 years on the Muppets. So when did you first know who he was? I mean, I would just hear his name in connection with these characters. You'd hear the name. Yeah. I saw his name at the end of two movies, and I realized in each of those movies he played exactly the same character, essentially the same character.

He was in Trading Places and in the Blues Brothers movie. Wait, who was, I don't know, who was he in those movies? He was at the boundary between people who were free and people who were in jail or in prison. So when the Blues Brothers got out of prison,

he's there giving them back their supplies. Including, I think, a used condom was one of the, that's what they were arrested with. And in trading places, he was there. He told Winthrop to, you know, take off his clothes and give up his stuff. So it was like the same role.

And it's like Frank Oz at the end. A small role, but it was like, that's the same guy who has all these voices. That's when it hit me. The name is so funny because he really is the guy pulling the strings. It works too well. It's almost too on the nose. If someone pitched that in a writer's room, how about the guy who's pulling the strings is literally named Oz?

That's right. It's crazy. Come on. So you might know that the legendary puppeteer Jim Henson, who goes back to 1955, creating the Muppets, that Frank Oz is like early in that universe. All right. And out of that, you get eventually Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy and Beaker. That was it. That was that was one. There was a scientist. Yeah. Yeah. And Fozzie Bear, I think, is that I say that right, Charles? Fozzie. I think Fozzie must be a F-Oz-E. In other words, do you think Fozzie was named after Frank himself as Fozzie?

That's a really good theory. I find that very believable. Yeah. I call it a hypothesis. There's a theory of evolution, and then Charles' hypothesis. It's a hypothesis. Okay. Yes, a hypothesis.

Yes, yes, yes. In the Museum of Natural History, it's a hypothesis. Just keep it. Yes, yes, yes. The Museum of Natural History is a hypothesis. So I had to ask Frank just how he got involved early on in this pop culture phenomenon. So let's check it out. Your history with the Muppets, I mean, you go back basically to the beginning, right? Is that right? Where? Jim and Jane started it in Washington, D.C.

Excuse me, Jim. Jim. Jim Henson. Not all of us. Jim, yeah, let me tell you. Jim. Jim. Excuse me. Okay.

Jim Henson, yes. I worked with my friend. Okay, okay. Geez, you're tough. I know. I'm scared to say his name now. I'll say it for you. Jim Henson.

Jim Henson and Jane started in Washington, D.C. in a local show for eight years. They moved to New York in 1963, and I was 19 years old, and that's when I joined them. So when were the Muppets picked up by Sesame Street? About 1969, 68. And you were there before or after that? Yeah, before. Before that? And after.

Okay. Yeah. And you were there before or after that? Yeah, before. Before that? And after. Okay. Yeah.

So this is puppeteering, but a different kind of puppet than we think of, you know, the marionette. Yeah, you know, I started... Somebody had to... Was that Jim? That was totally Jim. Totally Jim. Because who would have thought that would have worked with like a stick hand... Well, here's the thing. You know, before Jim, there was a proscenium with puppets and the curtain and you sit in front of it and the tv

shot that well he took away the proscenium and made the tv screen the proscenium okay that's one thing he did then he worked with a tight shot when you work with a tight shot. And when you work with a tight shot, that forces you to do it pretty succinct, you know, and all that. Usually most publishers kind of do that stuff. So, but, and he also had characters that were not traditional, like, you know, there's the usual dragon and there's a princess and all that stuff. He just made characters, period. So he just blew everything apart. He was amazing. So we lost Jim Henson in 1990. But of course, he left behind his legacy that Frank Oz kept going. So Charles, puppeteering, what do you know about it? Puppeteering has been going on for at least 4,000 years.

Ancient Egyptians did it. Herodotus spoke of it in the 5th century BC for the ancient Greeks. So it's a puppet. Yeah, puppets specifically. Finger puppets, hand puppets, glove puppets. And other around the world? Yeah, marionettes, little dolls that could move. Then followed by all the kinds of developments up to today,

including the very complicated handspring puppets you can see, where there's a person standing next to them and they show very lifelike behaviors of animals and other creatures. Such as the kind of thing employed in The Lion King, I guess. Yes, right. Right. There are many different sort of parts that capture an exact, or at least the spirit, of the animal that they are trying to show. That's right. Even though you know it's not the real animal, the movement evokes it. It is so good that you are able to appreciate that puppet for its own life and existence without having to think about the puppeteer. Well, he's had decades to hone it from the Muppets and Sesame Street. And it leads me to wonder whether is there any place else it can go next.

Well, I don't know we thought maybe Here look we put together What? There's a meal called The Hitman Yes! Okay We got one for everybody Look at that, there's a Charlie's Publix

Oh, I like that I got the Gannet puppet Wow How do you do this? What do I do? I think you put your hand in here. This is pretty close to what my hair looks like. Oh, yeah. Oh, very good. Very good.

Very good. Very good. Thank you. Very good. Very good. So how much of an impact on the landscape of education do you think Sesame Street had? Well, I, when I was a child, watched Sesame Street, and I was like, what? Oh.

Eventually, though, I realized that the puppets themselves were being controlled by people. Oh. And that was actually quite a realization for me in education. Cool. How are you so good at that? Have you been practicing? I'm sorry, I was just baffled. How are you so good at that?

Wait, wait, so you're younger than I think both you're younger than I think both me and Charles. I certainly hope so. Did you learn how to count with the count on Sesame Street? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, I did.

Yes. I mean, as a kid, it's interesting how much children relate to puppets because so much of kids' television is puppets, puppets, puppets, puppets everywhere. Okay. So how about... I'll help you there. Oh, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Neil. Okay. So, it's not just the math, it's not just the math, but there's also life lessons from Big Bird and it was a happy character. And it was bilingual as well. Eventually. Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco.

Right, right. But there's also Oscar the Grouch. Yeah. And I kept thinking, as a kid, I'm happier than this character. This character has like issues. Yeah. So. Well, he doesn't live in the best situation.

Like it's not. No, it does not. It teaches you to have empathy for folks who have it rougher than you, I think. So, Adam, who's your favorite character? Oh, on Sesame Street? Yes. Overall? Oh, my.

I have to think about that. You have to think about things. I do. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was like the telly monster. You got any telly fans? Telly fans? Got any telly fans? Because he fans? Got any telly fans?

Because he really, because he had, he went through some real problems, man. He had issues. He was anxious. That's more relatable to me. Charles, how about you? Hang on a sec. Okay. Who did I show off?

I would have to say Grover. Yes, Grover. Grover. Yes, Grover. Grover. Yes. Okay. Well, I asked Frank Oz if he had a favorite character that he performed on Sesame Street. So check it out. You know, one has to love one's characters or else you'll never do a good job.

So I love every character I do for some unknown reason. Even Piggy, who is neurotic and animal in all those characters, and Cookie Monster and everything. You invested in their personality profile. Absolutely. But you never do it alone. One doesn't work in a vacuum. I did it with the writers, with the fellow performers, and with Jim.

Just because I'm sitting here, it should also be a writer here, Jim here, and the other performers here. Because one doesn't work that alone. You have to create a character with other people. But I guess the answer would be the character that is easiest for me, is more organic, is Grover. Grover. Most likely.

Okay. Yeah. And you did Miss Piggy. I did. And so did anyone have concern for you psychologically, given how many different personalities manifested in these fictional monsters? It's not just me, but it's also the other performers who do so many other characters. But we're lucky.

We work our problems out, and you have to see it. Okay. So we're the victims of these social, these personality disorders. We get paid for therapy. You don't get paid to watch it at all, no. Wow. Coming up, I ask puppeteer Frank Oz about his most iconic character of them all, the Jedi Master Yoda, when StarTalk returns.

Welcome back to StarTalk from the American Museum of Natural History. We're featuring my interview with puppeteer Frank Oz, and he is, we think, best known as the voice of Yoda from Star Wars. Check it out. I remembered seeing Star Wars in real time. I mean, you know, first run, real time.

And there's this Yoda there. That's a weird kind of character. I kept thinking, no one will ever remember that character. This is Yoda. It's nice. What? It's just weird and kind of character. I kept thinking, no one will ever remember that character. This is Yoda. It's nice. It's just weird and kind of hairy and you don't want to pet it. If you can have a character that doesn't exist,

make it something you might want to cuddle with. I was sure nothing would come of Yoda. Here's Yoda, the wise... Who's to say? Who gave you that call? Actually, George. George.

George. George. And the Pope. George Lucas, through his producer, asked Jim. We were doing the Muppet movie in Los Angeles. Jim was obviously too busy. He couldn't quite do that. He has incredible talents, but this one he couldn't quite handle as much as I could,

he felt. And that's how it happened. It was through support of Jim. And then I started doing it. So you invented the voice? Yeah. Did anyone tell you, speak this way? In fact, how could anyone possibly tell you to speak that way? Because no one ever spoke that way before. Right.

You know why he says that? Why he talks that way? I have no idea. There's always a reason for something. I come to learn that as a scientist. Yeah? You know, my view of it is, first of all, it was Larry and Georgia wrote it. And I said, hey, you know, this is nice.

They use it halfway. And I said, can I do it all the time? They said, yeah. The way I view it is Yoda is... This is where adjectives and nouns are switched in place. I'm not smart enough to know what an adjective or a noun is. Okay. The sentence is fully understandable, but clearly from another syntax.

It's because that's the way the original Jedi spoke. It was a very formal and elegant language. He is now 700, 800 years old at that time. And not unlike the Native Americans trying to keep their language alive, he also is trying to keep the formal Jedi language alive while these surf kids are talking their language. And so he feels a tremendous responsibility to talk that way, even though nobody else talks that way. Even though he could probably speak the way everyone else speaks. Right. But he has the integrity and he feels the responsibility.

A cultural imperative. Yeah. That's what I believe. Well, you don't have to believe it because you did it, so therefore it is. Yeah, yeah. It is. And it gives him a dignity and an integrity that's important to his gravitas. So Adam, why is Yoda so beloved? I mean, I think first of all, the performance that Frank gives is incredible.

And it's got, you know, because he's right there actually puppeting the character. You know, there's a real, you know, humanity to the performance. You really connect with it. And then, you know, he starts out as this small little creature living in the bog, you know. And he turns out to be this wise, you know, incredibly powerful teacher. That contrast is so interesting and funny and stays with you. Charles, where do you come in? I think we all want to be Yoda.

We all somehow feel we're inadequate, perhaps a little ugly, a little short. But within us, we have the power to move mountains with just our mind. Or we want a Yoda in our lives, you know, someone where you're at your, you know, Luke's at his worst period. He's crash landed into this planet. You know, he's weak. He can't do anything. And then there's this guy who says to him like, no, you contain, you know,

the seeds of power and greatness and let me help you bring it out. So Charles, give me some of the backstory on Yoda. Well, George Lucas made sure that the backstory stayed very mysterious overall. But we do know that he spent his last years of his life in exile on Dagobah, which was the swampy planet, probably his planet of origin. We also know that...

And what species is he? We don't know. It's something weird in between. They've never specified. No. The idea is that he might be the last of his kind. George Lucas once joked that he's the illegitimate child of Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy.

Yeah, that kind of adds up, actually. If you picture it, it does kind of add up. So, Charles, Yoda is like the master of the force. Yes. A physicist's force is a push or a pull, and it's calculable by using mass times acceleration. The force that was described in the Star Wars movies is more like some sort of vague thing

that knits the universe together and flows all around us. It's more like an energy rather than a force, but it is tappable by certain people with enough training to allow you to manipulate space and time as if you had an unlimited force generator inside your pocket. So that would be what an actual force would actually do? Right. Okay, so there's some overlap between the two.

Right. Alright, there's one more thing about Yoda that I had to get off my chest with the voice of Yoda himself. Frank Oz, let's check it out. Okay, now can I give you my biggest gripe about Yoda man sure like unforgivable sure okay? There's Yoda old and wise Walking around with a cane mm-hmm then which episode was it where he pulls out the lightsaber and does triple Kung-Fu flips through the air the dude was walking around in a cane for the whole all this He can't he's old tired in a cane You can't take this so personally

You don't walk around with a cane okay settle down Get this I gotta release this he's in a cane and then it's time to fight he's flipping this. He's in a cane, and then it's time to fight. He's flipping, doing Matrix-like moves off the walls. Right, right. You okay? And then he's done, and then he goes back to the cane. You finished? I don't know.

So I don't know if I have room for that. Okay, fair enough. Well, that was, what happened was George had a story he had to tell, and I was doing a puppet, and in the story, he had a fight. So he had a choice. Do I stay the puppet and not tell the story he wants to tell and I was doing a puppet and in the story he had a fight. So he had a choice. Do I stay the puppet and not tell the story he wants to tell or do you change the puppet and make it the CGI and to jump around? Now, one could explain it by saying not unlike a mother can lift a car of a child, he, in this extreme case, uses that adrenaline to fight, and then he gets back because he can't be an old man.

One can use that. I'm not saying I'm using it. I'm saying that's the only explanation I can think of. Okay. I'm not saying it is right. I'm just saying that's an explanation. Okay. All right.

Let's just give you a pass on that one. Charles, are you buying that explanation? No. Superhuman adrenaline strength? No, no, no. Hysterical strength? Although it is true that adrenaline running can increase your strength by several times, it's not going to turn someone who can't walk into someone who can do that with a lightsaber. Okay. It is much more likely that

the cane was just an affectation, something that he used to show how old he was and keep all his people off guard. There was also the idea where say Donald Blake, who became Thor, he walked with a limp until he smacked a cane on the ground and then he became thor and he could fly around and call it down thunderbolts right jane foster who played thor more recently in the in the more recent comic books has cancer and actually is physically decrepit and in deep trouble until she strikes the mallet down and then becomes thor yeah i'm still not i'm still not buying. Adam, you got a better explanation for me. I like the affectation explanation, but I have an alternative explanation.

I am not an astrophysicist, unlike the two of you, but perhaps because Yoda is so tiny, he is more dense with force power that explodes out of him. Does that track for you guys? I don't like his expression. I don't like his expression. I don't like his expression. I think it's nice. I don't know about you.

Dance with force power. Neil, I have a bachelor's degree, so I think I know what I'm talking about. He's dance with force power. He should go on the TV show so you think you can force. Well, you have a long history of ruining movies like this for people, don't you? No.

Yes, you do. No. I just offer. No. No. Every time a movie comes out, man. No. I'm just helping people appreciate.

I just print. So one time I just, you know, put up some tweets about Star Wars, and I thought I was helping people. But no, they didn't think I was helping them. And like, Time Magazine came out. Do we have that headline? Yeah, look at that. They tried to completely ruin Star Wars. No!

Well, we're kindred spirits then. That's what I ruin things. You ruin things. Oh, okay. Oh, that I ruin things. You ruin things. Oh, okay. Oh, that is a thing. Yeah, absolutely. We would think with the noble goal of getting people closer to what is real.

Yeah, except that we have a specific tweet up. Don't we have an image of it? Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, all right. Would you read this aloud in the original? Star Wars The Force Awakens. BB-8, a smooth rolling metal spherical ball would have skidded uncontrollably on sand. Now, Neil. That is for sure.

Let me ask you. I'm just trying to keep it 100. That is your problem with Star Wars, is that the ball is slippery. That's the only critique you have. No, I had other issues. I put up with this about a dozen of them. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, I didn't just stop there.

But that was a practical effect, though. BB-8 was one of my favorite things about the movie. But half the movie was on sand. The thing couldn't have done anything. But they literally built the prop. BB-8 was a real prop that they had rolling around. It was a physical object. Yes, it was.

So it really did it. Unless that particularly seemed like it. Park that sand. It's going to be concrete half an inch below it. You can do that. I see. I see. Yeah. Try driving on sand with treaded tires. Just try it. Okay? Well, maybe he's got magnets.

Maybe he's got magnets. Well, coming up, actor and Hollywood motion capture pioneer Andy Serkis joins us when StarTalk returns. Welcome back to StarTalk. We're featuring my interview with puppeteer and filmmaker Frank Oz. And I asked him his opinion about the transition from puppets like his original Yoda to the computer animated characters we see in movies today. Check it out.

CG, it all depends on the use of it, right? If it enhances the story invisibly, that's great. If it shows off, then all we know, it's all just money and time. So it depends on the manner in which it's used, you know? I mean, I... So you don't lament the puppeteering trade aspect of it? I don't lament anything... The craft?

No, I'm not a big puppet craft guy. Okay. That's really what I was asking. I'm a performer, basically. And now I've been a director. I mean, when I directed Little Shop of Horrors, everything in that movie was real, except there were two CG shots at that time. They didn't call them CG.

And those shots were just a subway going by and something else. The plant itself was all live with about up to 30 people working it. These days, you couldn't afford that. You have no choice but to go CG on something. Nobody could possibly shoot that now. So therefore, in that situation, CG may be appropriate if you have to have a talking plant that weighs a ton, right?

And it's the manner in which you do it. If it's invisible, I'm all for it. And it supports the story. It's clear that some movies today didn't get the invisible memo. No, I get so tired. I mean, I personally get tired of swirling fire and things like that that are CG.

If it helps me to be compelled and touched by the story and it's invisible, I'm all for it. Cool. Well, joining me now to discuss computer technology in film is actor and performance capture pioneer Andy Serkis. Andy, welcome to Start Talk. Thank you. Thanks very much. Tell me, what is performance capture acting?

It's this incredible 21st century tool for enabling an actor to transport or transform into any avatar. So, you know, another way of putting it for the layperson would be, instead of putting on a costume and makeup and going on set and being directed by the director and working with other actors, you are going on set, working with the director and other actors, and then having digital makeup applied to your performance. Gotcha. Now, you are the undisputed king of this art form, in part because, in fact, you were King Kong in the 2005 remake, right? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, no one... people didn't draw that on top of you.

You were King Kong. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's the thing that people misunderstand, you know, and the difference between animation is, for instance, an actor would go into a voice booth and do two hours of recording, and then a whole team of animators would spend months and months and months, each individually, working on a shot, and they become the actor. This is why your body still matters.

So the difference between that and performance capture is that you are the author of the role from page 1 to 120 of the script. You're on set every day working with the director in exactly the same way as you would in a live-action performance. And you were also Caesar, the lead chimpanzee in the revival of the Planet of the Apes franchise. And I thought maybe, okay, he's only going to be playing,

he's only going to be doing apes. That's his, let me typecast him as an ape. He's the ape guy. But no, you end up playing, like, creepy Gollum in Lord of the Rings, and you were, like, the supreme leader Snoke in the latest Star Wars films. So we will not typecast you as an ape.

Thank you. Just as an evil villain of the Overlord of the Force. But those ape roles are incredible, especially because you were talking about voice actors. So much of the time when people are working digitally, it's just the voice. The first half of the first ape movie, you don't even speak,

and you convey so much emotion. It's one of my favorite performances I've ever seen. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's the great thing. Look, here's a case in point. Over the course of three movies, I get to play a character which, from birth all the way through his entire life. Not only that, it's not a human being.

It's an ape. Not only that, he's evolving. So you get to see a trans. This is what the technology can do. You know, it allows you to see the evolution of Caesar into this ape that is a chimpanzee at the beginning but is almost human-like towards the end. I can see a future category in the Academy Awards, best leading ape. Because that's what you were. So how do you prepare to be an ape? I mean, humans are a branch of apes, but it's not the kind of ape you're portraying. So do you go around dragging your

knuckles for a few weeks to get in the part? How do you do this? Yeah. I mean, the great thing is it's all acting. It's about acting. And when you're creating a character, you are building the psychology of the role, the emotional drive of the role, the physicality. It's all, you know, a backstory. You imagine who this character is.

And you've got to connect with people. Absolutely. So you start off by, of course, if you're playing an ape, then you observe apes. And I spend a lot of time observing apes, both for King Kong and for, you know, I went to Rwanda and studied mountain gorillas. I looked at gorillas in captivity, observed the difference between the two. But one thing with Caesar was he is not just an ape. This is an ape that has a drug that's coursing through his veins which which uh which enables him to rapidly evolve and so it's like well it's about character ultimately so so the the learning how to be an ape is that like one percent of the of the journey of building the character it's it's who is this guy and the way i chose to play caesar was that he was an outsider that he is

almost like i approached him like he was a human in an ape's skin until there's a certain part in the story. He's brought up with human beings, so he reflects human behavior. It's then when he's thrown into an ape sanctuary at his teenage years that he begins to see himself for what he is and becomes a revolutionary leader and leads his apes to freedom. So it's not a stretch to imagine a human playing an ape, because they're our closest relatives, but if I'm imagining the future of this

craft, this art, how might one go about playing animals that don't have four limbs, like insects or something? Or a lizard, it's got four limbs, but it's not, the limbs are not proportioned the way apes are. That happens using

a process called retargeting. So for instance, I'm working on a production of not Animal Animal Farm, that's to come, actually, but Jungle Book. And we have great actors playing all the characters, all the animals of the jungle. We've got Christian Bale playing Bagheera. We've got Cate Blanchett playing a snake. We have Benedict Cumberbatch playing Shere Khan, the tiger. We think he can play anything he wants. He can play anything.

Benedict Cumberbatch, yeah, yeah. One day they'll say, could you please play yourself? I have no idea what that is. There are various different ways of retargeting the actor's performance so that they literally are driving the character. So, for instance, Cate Blanchett, we designed the snake and digitally attached the snake to the back of her head. So by moving her head like this, the ripples went through the entire body of the snake and Digitally attached the snake to the back of her head so by moving her head like this The ripples went through the entire body of the snake and that's how it's puppeteer. So it's a digital form of puppeteering

So you so there are you know, really interesting ways and of course you're capturing all the facial expressions using well We've got a picture of you playing Caesar and we get to compare one right next to another Look at that. So the dots on your face. That's me on the right-hand side. So the dots, tell me about the dots on your face. So the dots are assigned to muscle, you know, muscles in your face picked up by this. This boom that's in front is a head-mounted camera, which picks up all very subtle information of every single expression you're making. And it also tracks your eye movements and so on so so the animators then take that information it's it's uh the the information

it goes through a computer but is then taken by the animators and they have to retarget it onto the face right because there's a hundred computer engineers between the left picture and the right picture yeah well there's there's there are cg artists and also animators too. So it's the skill of honoring the actor's performance is what they do. So they are duty-bound to take all of the emotion that is performed by the actor on the day on set and translate it by texture, by fur, and by literally retargeting that performance. And a shot like that will take maybe 120 iterations before it actually nails the does what it's got to do yeah being performed by the actor so Adam do you is there a role for CGI in comedy oh yeah absolutely I mean CGI you know TV comedy

is much lower budgets than movies right it's starting to get so available and accessible we are able to use CGI yeah I wouldn't want to say inexpensive yeah exactly true tv it's inexpensive it's not cheap uh we uh we are able to use it on our show to punch jokes or to make moments work better or now if you know i flub a line or if i don't sell a joke we can make it work on the show with vfx and make it work in post like watch if you know we could just like add an explosion right here. Like, watch, let's add an explosion. See, that wouldn't work for anyone at home,

but on TV it's pretty hilarious. Yeah, there's still nothing here right now. Yeah, for you folks that was nothing, but they'll love it at home. Okay. So, Charles, can you think of roles of CGI in education? Absolutely. Right now, NASA is already working on opportunities to use CGI to show people going into the International Space Station,

walking around, seeing things happening, as if you were there. Now, I'm just hoping that... But can you also, like, turn knobs and things? So you are what it makes you think you are. That's right. In situ. That's right. Okay.

And I'm waiting for astronauts to put on this capture technology so that they can look like apes in space. That would be a time. Yeah, you don't have to send real chimps up anymore. You can just send out astronauts with a motion capture. There you go. Yeah. All right. up anymore. You can just send out astronauts with a motion capture.

There you go. Yeah. All right. So, Andy, Frank Oz noted that the CGI needs to enhance the storytelling and not become the storytelling. I assume you agree with that. I mean, honestly, they should be invisible. They should be totally invisible.

I mean, that's the great thing. I mean, most people think when they watch the Apes movies that it's like they're not quite sure because it's so believable they're not entirely sure how it's done but they are totally transported into that world i remember in the first three minutes i'm saying gee i wonder how they did this and then in the next three minutes was like i'm totally in this and i don't care right exactly yeah yeah we're going to take a quick break and when we come back more on the art and science of character creation when StarTalk returns. Welcome back to StarTalk from the American Museum of Natural History. We're featuring

my interview with puppeteer Frank Oz, And I asked him how he creates characters, both as a performer and as a director. Let's check it out. We would always play around. It was always about play, just like you. It's about play. And that's how to get the best work is just to play. And then we will say, OK, let's play around with this,

like improv this, because the script doesn't quite work there. And then they'll say, you know what? That around with this, like improv this, because the script doesn't quite work there. And then they'll say, you know what, that script works. You should do that word for word. But how about this over here? And we would just play until it cooked. Even though we all liked polished finished product, what I think we like even more is behind the scenes.

Yeah. Particularly of a product we love. You want to know as much as you can about the creative process. I also think it has to do with imperfection. I think we like imperfection and not perfection. I think the problem with technology, in my opinion sometimes, is it's used for perfection. And we're not perfect, and so we can't relate to it.

So we like to relate to imperfection, and that's backstage too. That's where you get the fits and starts. That's where you get the humanity. We're all flawed. And every director should be on camera and they'll have real empathy for an actor and they won't treat the actors badly. Or take them for granted for what they're trying to invest. Absolutely. And they're precious, vulnerable people.

And when you're on, well, you're on camera all the time, you know. I mean, you give yourself. Yeah. You're naked. You're bare- all the time, you know. I mean, you give yourself. Yeah. You're naked. You're bare-assed. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, Andy, do you feel bare-assed when you're acting?

Just all vulnerable? I always feel bare-assed in a Lycra suit. So, to a point that Frank was mentioning, how important is the sort of play in acting? Well, look, it's all about imagination. I mean, that's the thing. Whether we're on stage and we're acting in front of creating a fourth wall, whether we're pretending to be apes in motion capture suits, whether we are pretending to be kings or queens dressed with a crown and a robe,

it is play. It's it's all about imagination But the thing is it has to be grounded in In emotional truth and so so what you're doing as an actor is you're always finding a relationship between you and the character Regardless of how extreme might be you know playing King Kong playing Gollum, you know, these are the fantasy creatures, but they don't just exist out there. You have, because you're embodying them, you're using a huge part of your you as a person. How many people get to say, playing King Kong

and Gollum? That sentence isn't utterable by anyone else who ever lived. I just want to bask in that sentence just for a moment. So you've been in front of the camera, behind the camera, actor, director, and you're a pioneer in this medium. Can you think of what the future of this medium will bring?

The great thing about performance capture is it's now used in big budget movies, but it's also used in television. It's used in video games. It's going to be used more in virtual reality and in augmented reality. Augmented reality. So I think we all want a shared experience. We all crave the shared experience, even though we all binge-watch on our iPhones and our computers. I still think that human nature desires the shared experience.

So what's going to lead? Is it you're an actor and you say, I want to portray this in the future. Engineers help me do this. Or will the engineers invent something new? And then you'll say, oh, I know how I can now use that in my future project. It's a combination of things. It is a marriage, but it's got to be creatively led. I mean, projects never happen.

I mean, films never come about. Toy Story would never have happened had it not been for a script and a story and great characters. And then it's like, how do we make this happen? Do you agree with Frank that the behind the scenes can help someone appreciate what the product will be? I think that's a really good question, actually. Well, certainly it's helped explain the process, the acting process of performance capture to the world. Otherwise, you know, it really would be a mystery to a lot of people.

But Charles, do you think if you see how something is done, does that subtract from the magic of it? If you see it after, then it doesn't. Oh, after. It has to. Oh, okay. If you see it before, it might subtract. But this is something that's very true, the imperfection of performance.

Some studies have been done to try to figure out why some songs cause you to cry, like tear-jerking songs, and why some don't. And the answer lies in the imperfection. If you hear a person's voice break or go a little bit off because it seems more emotional, you are more likely to cry. To pick up on the imperfection thing, just if I may, I think that's the thing about performance capture is because you're seeing actor decisions, because you see maybe someone, you know,

the physicality is so the capture is so, the fidelity of it is so truthful. If you see an actor trip or stumble or, you know, do something that they're feeling in the moment, like an animator would never think to do that. So, Andy, before we let you go,

what should we look for? Where are you going to take us? Well, I really do hope that we are on the verge of creating really engaging storytelling. And again, it's all about immersion and emotional connection. Well, Andy, thank you for joining us tonight on StarTalk with Andy Serkis. Coming up next, my good buddy Bill Nye,

the science guy, will share his thoughts on the art and science of character creation when StarTalk returns. Welcome back to StarTalk from the Rose Center for Earth and Space right here in New York City. And we've been talking about the art and science of character creation. And right now, I've got a dispatch on this topic from my friend, good buddy, Bill Nye the Science Guy. Check it out. Hey, Neil. I'm at the Jim Henson Exhib exhibition at the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens saying hi to some of my old friends like Kermit the Frog.

Hi Kermit. Hello Bill. Since ancient times, people have used dolls and puppets to tell human stories. The appeal of these pint-sized personas runs deep. I mean, how many of you have played with dollhouses? How many of you talk to the miniature figures on your toy train layout? We love these little creatures telling human stories. It's how we learn.

Frank Oz's fabulous fictional characters taught many of us the alphabet and how to be nice to each other, and that fear is the path to the dark side. But for the performers behind the curtain, or below the frame, it's how we inform, inspire, or make you laugh. That's art! aren't. But the appeal of the miniature worlds that these characters inhabit runs

deep to our ancestral past. And that's science. Back to you, Neil. I am. So, Charles Adam, in what ways have puppets touched your life just growing up? I really enjoyed puppets when I was a kid.

We played with them. But really, I enjoy even more watching true quality puppeteers make amazing things happen with these simple constructions. It's really quite amazing. But up to what level? At some point, you've got to say, no, we're grown-ups now. No. Any level. Any level.

I used it in graduate classes. No. Yes. Black holes, you know, um that kind of thing Yeah, it works really well with kids, but even graduate students appreciate it too you You get graduate classes. Oh, yeah, especially magneto hydrodynamics. Oh, yeah No puppets any kind of three-dimensional manipulative activity is fundamentally something that adds to the educational experience. I totally use them whenever I get the chance,

and I'm always happy to promote the use of puppets and other kinds of manipulative things in education. Whatever it takes. When you give people that visual, that helps them remember. And the three-dimensionality of it. Three-dimensionality and a voice character. Yes. Why not?

That's right. Since ancient times, puppetry has been a way where people have used science and technology to convey stories and bring us beyond what is just real. And that's just extended forward to the Muppets of Frank Oz, to Yoda, and now CGI. It's just another tool that science and technology can bring to the Muppets of Frank Oz, to Yoda, and now CGI. It's just another tool that science and technology can bring to the table when transporting us somewhere beyond our regular daily lives. Oh, that's beautiful.

Because in this final clip with Frank, I asked him about a related, very curious phenomenon in his craft. I asked him, check it out. You must know this, but I have to share it to you just as a first-hand experience. I've had a couple of experiences in one-on-one conversations with Muppets. And even though I see the Muppeteer just standing there, either just behind a barrier or maybe not behind a barrier at all. They're just standing there.

I'm talking to the Muppet. And the human being just dissolves away. And I'm saying that as an adult. What is that? Why do we all just play along with that and can smile and joke? And we will say I met miss piggy today We're not gonna say I met the puppeteer of miss piggy We full-grown mature adults and especially kids will say we met the monster the character

What is what is that? It's gotta be something psychological going on in there Yeah, I mean, you know using Yoda or any characters, you characters, if somebody said to me, geez, you did a great job with that, I lost. Immediately, I lost. My job is not to do a good job. My job is not to do a great job. My job is to have it transcend. It should be transcendent. So that which I'm working transcends that which it is. So you don't want someone to say, you did a good job at what you did. That would be the worst thing. So you don't want someone to say you did a good job. That would be the worst thing in the world. You want someone to say. No, I don't want somebody to say, I want someone to believe.

I thought deeply about that last clip and I realized there's something in my life that resonates with that. He doesn't want you to know that he's even in that equation. He just wants you to believe what he has created, and that should be your takeaway from what he has created for you. And I, as an educator, when I try to bring the universe down to earth for whoever will listen, I don't ever want the result of that to be you in some other situation saying, this is true because Tyson said so. If that is your answer to someone's comment, I have failed as an educator. My task is to empower you to think for yourself so that you will walk away and I am not in the equation at all.

You don't even remember that I share that information with you because that information became a part of you. And once you walk away from that conversation, you're in charge of your information. And it doesn't reference anything else in the world. And that is the power of knowledge, the power of insight, and ultimately, the source of all wisdom.

And that is a cosmic perspective. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. You've been watching StarTalk. Charles Liu. Adam Conover. Thank you. Until next time, as always, I bid you to keep looking up.