StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - A Conversation with Mario Andretti and Neil deGrasse Tyson

Episode Date: August 1, 2019

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. “If everything seems under control then you’re just not going fast enough.” Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice hit the fast lane with legendary driver Mario Andretti and our resident astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson to explore Mario’s extraordinary career. Photo Credit: StarTalk© Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

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slash StarTalk. This is StarTalk. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal natural physicist, and this is a special sports edition. We have with us, as my co-host, the dynamic duo from Playing With Science, Harry O'Reilly. Hey.

Chuck Nice. Hey, hey. The two co-hosts of that esteemed show. Thank you. And who did you bring into my office today? Well, it's quite simple, hey. The two co-hosts of that esteemed show. Thank you. And who did you bring into my office today? Well, it's quite simple, really. Today, our guest joins us from Mount Olympus. Yep, he is a god.

Some say that he refused the lead in the Fast and the Furious movie franchise because they were too damn slow. And when posing for his portrait in the National Portrait Gallery, all they got was a blur. Nice. I see what you did there. Exactly. He's actually the only man in history

to win a Formula One championship, an Indy championship, NASCAR at Daytona championship, and he is voted Indy Championship. NASCAR at Daytona Championship. And he is voted Driver of the 20th Century. Okay, so

there you go, man. I don't think it gets much better than that. I don't think it does. He is a national treasure both here in the US and in Italy. He is the man, the living legend. He is Mario Andretti. There he is. Thank, the living legend. He is Mario Andretti. He is.

Give him an applause. All right. Yeah. For sure. How do we live up to that? You already have. We're done. Okay.

Thank you very much. You're welcome. All right. Let's step back and explore some of your early life. If I'm not mistaken, as an eight-year-old, you find yourself in a refugee camp in Italy? Unbelievable. Well, yes, indeed, unbelievable to some degree

because we were refugees in our own country. Wow. Because actually the territory where I was born, which is the peninsula of Istria, on the eastern side and the northern side of the Adriatic, was occupied by Yugoslavia after the war. Oh. Italy obviously lost the war. And so that became a communist occupied country under hardline communism. And there was a choice for all the inhabitants of the area

to remain and succumb to communism or leave to maintain the Italian citizenship and leave everything behind, everything that you own. You were allowed or given a lorry, a truck, you know, to put whatever belongings you could just transport with that and then leave. And then, so we were transported to what they call a displacement camp in Udine, which is on the other side of Trieste. That's all it is.

How nice. It wasn't a concentration camp. No. It was a displacement camp. That's all it is. How nice. It wasn't a concentration camp. No. It was a displacement camp.

Which after there, you were displaced to another area in Italy, wherever, a city where they would absorb, say, 1,200, 1,500, because there were, I think it was estimated somewhere around close to 190,000 inhabitants of that area that wanted to leave, that left, actually. This is part of the fallout of the Second World War that I don't think they teach us in our school room. No. No. All the edge work, what's going on from the Soviet Union, what did they get, what did the winners and losers get?

Right. Yeah, the only thing you learn in American schools about World War II is it ended with USA. USA. Yeah, that's basic. Well, not only talk about teaching, actually the government was not really learning or, you know, exactly telling anyone that we are refugees, we're Italians, you know, from a land that was lost. They were actually ashamed of the fact that they lost that territory. So we arrived in the city, we spent, where we wound up was in Lucca in Tuscany, beautiful city.

And so basically we were like, there was somewhere like 1200 people in one building that used to be an old monastery and all of that. And again, you know, under basic, fairly primitive conditions. But nevertheless, you know, no one knew in the area what we were. What are we, gypsies? What are we, what? You know, so it took a long time for people, you know, to realize.

What age are you at this point? Eight. Eight. But to realize, you know. What age are you at this point? Eight. Eight. Eight years old. Where did you know you had a passion for racing, for driving, for motorsport?

About eight and a half. There's a story that you used to run around the kitchen with a frying pan acting as a steering wheel. Is that true? Indeed. Exactly. And in fact, I have a twin brother, Aldo. All right. Yeah. And he and I I have a twin brother, Aldo. All right.

Yeah, and he and I obviously had the same passion. And one day, one will be the driver and the other will be the car. The guy that was the car was holding the lid on the knob and the other guy was steering. So you're backing up. So the way you're steering, you're just actually learning how to drive, right? You know, and you hope you don't run into furniture, you know. But, you know, there was something, I don't know why, still to this day, what really drew me into that, you know, to motor racing and to be fascinated with something like that that was the furthest thing from the makeup of our family, quite honestly.

You find yourself in the USA in 1955. Your twin brother Aldo and you sneak out, you rebuild cars and go dirt racing. Yes. What did your mother and father think? That's the point. You know, we obviously, when we arrived to America, we found out there's a racetrack right in the town

where I still live today. What town is that? In Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Yes. And anyway, and so two years after we arrived, we started building a car that we planned to race there by the time we were 21.

So we had plenty of time, but the car was finished when we were 19, two years later. And so we're ready to race, but there's no way we could ask or even talk about it to my dad because my dad all he knew about racing at the time was uh what was you know pretty much uh publicized such as uh you know and then they were too often you know and too popular and uh so basically he thought there was something crazy he basically he did not understand or care about the sport but we already had the burning passion you know that was inside of us

and um and we were going to do this regardless so the bottom line is uh we did the whole first season without my dad knowing now my mother who, who was a kick in the... I mean, she was really... She was much different. She was basically... But she was caught in the middle. So she didn't know directly, but you know, mothers, they sense things. They knew something was going on. So she sort of stayed quiet behind. But we were winning some races actually my brother won the very first race and so did i that we competed in on a local level and um and and so my dad at work you know the boss go hey gg man you did a great job you know so my dad had no idea language barrier you know that was a salvation thank god and he yeah thank god so he

thought that they were just uh praising him for his work and he go yeah yeah yeah good good so the bottom line is uh you know we we escaped all that until the very last race of the season where it was an invitational you had to be 13 points within tracks of 150 mile radius to be invited to hatfield pennsylvania for the last races so we both actually uh were eligible for that and so i got a ride with somebody else and aldo drove our car which was uh that was a modified race our car was a sportsman so it was as powerful, but it was still a fast one. And he was doing a qualifying heat. He was trying to beat the track champion at that place,

which was Freddie Adams. And somehow he got into the guardrail, and he had a terrible end-over-end accident. And they gave him his last rites that night. And he had a skull fracture, the base of a skull fracture. He was in a coma for weeks. But anyway, and so obviously I had to call my mom. I would think.

My mom. So I said, Mom. Only a race car driver could speak like that. We got his fractured skull, he's in a coma. But anyway, let me get to the real part. It's just like another day at the track. I'm just telling you how my dad...

Occupational hazard. I'm telling you how my dad found out. But let me continue with the story. Okay, go on. I want to be brief because I can go on and on. But I said, that's how my dad found out. And obviously he felt vindicated. You know, I figured, see, I told you.

You know, they're going to bring you home with a body bag and all that. But the bottom line is that a whole hell let loose when he found out that even while Aldo was recovering, I was building a new car. I was building a new car for the following season. And when we started racing the following season, it was very, very, very quiet at home. So you're your own engineer, mechanic, and driver.

Well, I don't think that... That means yes. So actually, you're getting science education on the job. That was more like it. But, you know, we assembled four other buddies and there's always the geek in the crowd, right? One guy that actually steered us in the right direction, his name was Charlie Mitch, he's no longer with us.

But he sort of, he knew what we needed to do. And we, as driver, I learned how to weld and all that sort of thing. But as far as mechanics, we just improvised the best possible way. But somehow we did a pretty good job because here's the idea. We built something that was different from what they were running at the local racetrack.

And the idea was if you build something, it has to qualify within rules, you know, but it said we have to do something like NASCAR. He said, we have to do something like NASCAR. NASCAR had, at the time, the Hudson cars were very popular on the short tracks. So that's what we built. So when we showed up, we showed up with something very different. And then we had, oh yeah, in those days, you know, the race drivers didn't have proper driving suits or anything. We showed up, we bought two driving suits from Italy, Salasport, you know, with all the zippers and everything.

Italians. Yeah, we showed up. Got to do it in style. Yeah, yeah. And also, we said that we used to race in Italy in a Formula Junior, you know, which didn't exist. And so to be accepted, because they said, why should we let you race?

That sort of thing. So we said, oh, you're the Italian kids and so forth. So we played the part, if you will. And that's how it all got started. That's pretty great, though. It's just like, why should we let you race? You don't know these guys? They're the Formula Junior champions.

Oh, oh, oh. Oh, yeah. Then they must be good. I'm so sorry. We didn't know. By the way, that one haunted us for a while. So let's jump forward a little bit. You've got your smarts in engineering now.

You're learning how to handle a car. You end up moving into a bigger deal. And Holman Moody, which is NASCAR. That must have been a whole new ballgame for you. Well, indeed. I mean, at the top level of our sport, obviously we have several disciplines. And my objective was always to be in single-seaters, open-wheel cars, which is usually, to me, that's a thoroughbred of the racing cars.

But as you go on, by the time I pretty much was able to express my desire to do some NASCAR, something else. I was already established in the circuit, you know, in national. I was already national champion, you know, in 65, my very first year actually at the top level of IndyCars. And I had a great relationship with Ford. We were, you know, Ford engines and so forth, and I was winning some races. And then, and of course, Ford, you know, was very involved in

NASCAR, you know, as one of the manufacturers, which they still are today. And so I expressed a desire to do some NASCAR races, go to the actually to the race, which is the Daytona 500.

And they accommodated me, and they put me with the top team, with the official team, the home of the Moody, which fielded, actually, my teammate was what they called, it was Freddy Lorenzen. He was called at the time the golden boy of NASCAR. So I. So I was with, you know, the right team at the right time, I suppose. What do you think he was learning from a point of view, physics, to be able to succeed in NASCAR? Well, of course they're different.

I mean, they're different shaped vehicles, right? I mean, everything is different. So did you feel that, obviously they are different. What does it feel like as a driver to drive such a different vehicle? Between NASCAR and Indy. Or open wheel and NASCAR. Yeah, that actually, that's the trick and that's the challenge.

You know, because it's like an animal trainer. You know, you got a tiger, you got something, a cheetah here. And they're both what they are. And they're both what they are, but you know, there's some similarity how Cheetah here. And they're both what they are. And they're both what they are. But, you know, there's some similarity how you approach it, but they're different, different guys. So a racing car is something like that.

Each racing car has its own personality. And if you're curious, like I always was, you know, even early on in my career, I was specializing. My specialty was and still is, you know, open wheel single seaters. But I loved to see what was going on at the top level on the other side, you know, which is the stock cars. But here's the other thing that I think I realized early on, too, that in order to be able to migrate to the other side. The other side. Yeah, the other side. He crossed over. The other side. He crossed over.

I am your father. You better be looking for to be with the top team because you can be the best shoe in the world, the best driver in the world unless you have a car that's capable with a team that's got a car

that's obviously equipment that's capable of bringing team that's got a car that's obviously equipment, that's capable of bringing results, you're not going to get results. So what little tricks did you learn in NASCAR that enabled you to be so successful in other areas of racing? Because we wouldn't expect that, necessarily. Well, that's a good question, actually, because, as I said... He's capable of a good question every now and again. Every now and again. Yeah, yeah. Well, actually what makes sense is the fact that, as I said, each side has a different characteristic, but there's similarities as well, you know. So,

you always learn. I learned something in one area that applies. And I said, oh, you know, and I always felt that I learned something, you know, to just expand my knowledge, you know, as far as understanding the dynamics of the car, such as whether it's aerodynamics or mechanical, on the mechanical side of the car. Car-carrying geek from way back. You had to take him into Geek Club. If he's thinking about that, and applying and corresponding, what's the same

and what's different? The difference is, you know, geeks who are just like science for the sake of liking science, the worst that can happen to them is they might miss a fact. The difference from Mario is if he... He could be jettisoned into Earth orbit.

He misses a bend, yeah. Yeah, he misses a bend. Right. And so I think his love of science is a little more intense and necessary. There's stories about drivers who can sit in a car, take it a lap around the track, and they'll come back and tell you exactly where is and isn't tire pressure. Some things are missed at the back. There's something not quite.

How soon, I'm guessing you had it at quite an early age, how soon were you able to apply that to cars? Well, it's about experience, though. You know, so you have to have, I mean, it doesn't just come out of the air you know you just have to have that practical experience to be able to identify what's going on and then as you make the changes ah this works this doesn't work and so on and so but it's it's a work one with the car but it's a work yes indeed very zen and it's a work in yes, indeed. Very zen. And it's a work in progress. But, you know, a race car, the other thing is an animal that has so many,

a thousand adjustments, if you will. And the closer, the more you understand about what really works, the dynamics, what suits your style even, the better off you are. I always said it's the same thing as a patient going to a doctor. You go to a doctor and you say, Doc, I'm really sick. Okay, what's wrong? I don't know.

So what's the doctor going to do? Take him forever to test or whatever. If you go in there and explain to the doctor this, this, and that, you know what, there's something here, you know, in my head, then they go right to the thing. So it's the same thing with the driver and the engineer, to have that relationship because you can't do it alone. You have to have a relationship with your engineer,

the one that actually can fix the car. Yes. And the more, the closest he understands the way you're expressing yourself, the better off you're going to be. You are the engineer's access to the performance of the car. Exactly. And now I know why my medical care is lousy. Because I keep calling my mechanic and asking him what's wrong with me.

Just sends you for an oil change. All right, on that note, let us take a break. We'll be coming back with the fabulous Mario Andretti. Don't forget, this is racing legend that we've got an opportunity to talk to, a unique heritage. We're going to take that break. More from the driver of the century. Yes, he will be with us still when we get back.

Over 300 people have been guests on StarTalk. Find your faves or discover new comedians and experts at StarTalkRadio.net. Search for a person and find every episode they've ever been on. Again, that's every comic co-host, science expert, and celebrity guest. Search them all at StarTalkRadio.net. We're back. StarTalk Sports Edition. This one from a special part of the Sportiverse. Brought to you by my special co-hosts

from Playing With Science. Gary O'Reilly. Chuck Nice. That's right, sir. And look what you found walking around outside in the street. I know. Aimlessly. Aimlessly.

Aimlessly. We snatched him from the street. I know. Aimlessly. Aimlessly. Aimlessly. We snatched him from the street. Yeah. Pulled him in. Mario Andretti. Only in New York. Exactly.

Only in New York. So before the break, we were speaking about... Driver of the Century. Driver of the Century. I didn't know that was a thing. And now, of course, it's him. Who else would that be? But we've only got so far. You've emerged

out of dirt track racing into indie into the nazcar scene you're beginning to establish yourself but as you said already this is the 60s and 70s no we're always we're still in the 60s oh yeah and so the open-wheeled racing you said your passion and if you want so the open-wheeled racing, you said, your passion. And if you want to race open-wheeled, there's only one place to go. You come back to Europe. Not an easy place to come to because there's only so many rides. There's only so many teams. You find yourself at Lotus.

Colin Chapman is the guy in charge. We've had world champions before you in the likes of Jim Clark. But at this time in 1968, there's a special thing happening at Lotus. Would you please explain to us what that exactly is? Well, here's, 1968 is when, I go back. In 1968 is when, I go back. In 1965, when Jim Clark won Indianapolis, I finished third, and I was a Rookie of the Year, which is actually something that, it's a title that you can only achieve once, you know, the first time.

But it's got some, you know, some importance to it. Anyway, at the banquet, after everything, and we're saying our goodbyes, I said to Colin, I said, Colin, someday I would like to do Formula One. And Colin says, Mario, whenever you think you're ready, you call me. Ooh, wow. And that's when the call came in 1968, three years later. And he said, right. We all should have someone like that in our lives.

When you're ready, call me. Yeah. Or even just call me. Anybody. I'll take that. I'll just take somebody saying, hey, man, call me. But he took the call. He accepted the call. Three years later, man. But he took the call. He accepted the call.

Three years later, 1968. Now, can you imagine actually, you know, as a kid, dreaming? Because my ultimate dream was also, you know, to devote part of my career to Formula. I had a great career going here in the United States. You had it made in the shade here. But I, you know, Formula One was was always in back of my mind and all of that so i says at a certain time uh when i feel that i'm ready uh okay and colin was there you know and uh and it was amazing because um you know obviously here again one of the top teams you

know you know that you would have equipment uh so they can slot you. Yeah, he said, I will enter the third car, which he did, of course. And, you know, Graham Hill was one of the drivers. Another world champion. Yeah, but anyway, and so my debut at the U.S. Grand Prix at Watkins Glen, I was on pole. You took pole in your first race? I took pole in your first race? Wow.

I'm interested to know what made you know you were ready because that is something that people can benefit from. You know, you never want to go too early. Chuck, that's actually another good question here because the reason I said I like to do it, and when you said when you're ready, because in IndyCars at the time, the primary action was basically on oval tracks, so there wasn't a lot of road racing, and so, and little by little in that series, they started introducing some road races. But here again, with the relationship I have with Ford, Ford was embarking in the new Le Mans program. Actually, they're doing a film about that.

It's coming on, you know, I think right now. Ford wants to beat Ferrari at Le Mans. Everybody wants to beat Ferrari. Yes, indeed. And there was a gigantic program that offered a lot of seat time. And I offered my services, I said, I want to be at every test. And we did, we should do some 24 hour tests, you know, like actually straight 24 hours, you know, with the two drivers alternating back and forth. The line is a 24-hour race. Yeah, exactly. So this is part of it.

And that was golden for me. And I befriended, especially, you know, Bruce McLaren. And I became really friendly friends. Who is part of McLaren race team right now? McLaren racing team, of course. And he was very... Expensive McLaren car. There's like six of them in the world or something.

And a billionaire owns one. Is that the one? Yeah. Okay, just checking. That's the heritage. That's where they go back to. Just millionaire. That's all.

Don't tell me you have one. I don't even know if Jay Leno has one of those. Does he? I'm pretty sure Jay Leno has a McLaren. You've got a McLaren, okay. If he doesn't, he knows where you have one. I don't even know if Jay Leno has one of those. Does he? I'm pretty sure Jay Leno has one. If he doesn't, he knows where to get one. I just drove a couple of them at the Autobahn in Chicago just last week. I drove a bunch of those, all those McLarens.

So when we come back to Formula One, and because we probably touched on the endurance side of it, there's a thing that no one had really gotten to grips with that Lotus had in this 78-79 season called ground effect. Now that's going to have a massive, massive impact on the championship. Yes, indeed. And actually, all of this came about just at the end of the 76 season, which obviously I was part of. And the best part is also we won the last race in Japan, you know, that season,

which is nothing better than winning the last race of the season, you know, to give everybody vitality, you know, and just that. And can't wait to see what we're going to do the following year. So every year, obviously, there's a new car that's going to be born, you know, from what you learn because you progress. And so we were all having a meeting, H a driver, I said that you're dreaming about aerodynamic downforce, which obviously plants the car to the road and increases cornering speeds. But there's a penalty. The penalty is drag, straight line.

So the more downforce you put on with the surface wings, the more resistance you have against the wind. So I says, I'm dreaming of downforce without penalty. So here we go. How do you achieve that? And so you go underneath the car to create a low pressure. A low pressure that can speed up the air underneath the car to create a low pressure, a low pressure that could speed up the air underneath the car, but has to be directed, directed by body design, just like an airplane. An airplane is designed both top and bottom surface to fly.

So you're turning the airplane upside down. Because you want it to push down instead of lift. So this was the concept that was born by the racing car. But the fact that the air comes free underneath the car, there's no drag penalty. And so that was a breakthrough like no other in our sport. Were Lotus the only team to have this? Well, we were the first ones, yes. And we didn't come out and all of a sudden we had all the answers.

It was little by little, just hint here, hint there. I was testing in Germany at the Hockenheim, and there was one real, at the end of both straight, a real long right-hander. And all of a sudden, I'm arriving in the middle of the corner, and I'm feeling the car suck down. Why? Because we needed to close the sides to the road so the air would not escape off the side. So, you know, we're just learning something.

It was a little apron. Yeah, like an apron, yeah. We were just learning something. It was a little apron. Yeah, like an apron. So we were learning things and then learning how to change the diffuser angles in the back, to change the center of pressure to give it balance. You can't have all the pressure in the front or the back.

So there were a lot of things, but we were on to something. And that's how the ground effects started, you know. I was all ready to add to this, but I have nothing to add because you said everything perfectly. So this is, I'm a scientist. That's why we love to add that to the resume. Certified. So just to be clear, when we see cars that have spoilers in the back, if you pitch the spoiler to be at a very high angle, that can put a lot of down pressure on the car, giving it stability, but just like you were saying, that impedes your forward motion.

So you win in one place and lose in another. And so this is a complete act of brilliance to say airplanes get lift without disrupting their forward motion. Let's turn that lift into a downforce. That increases the friction between your cars and the tire, gives you more grip. Especially what you need, what you want, what you need on the turn. And it serves at every point in your race. It's amazing the cornering speed that the cars are capable of today.

As a matter of fact, a lot of the design is restricted to the point that you could make it so the car will just be right, you know, just like on a track, you know what I mean, without any slippage or anything else.

But they restrict it? It's by rule. Why? Why not go all out? Because it's Formula One and it's rules for rules. No, no. I mean, no.

You have to do that because, number one, I think a lot of it has to be the onus is on the driver also to do, you know, to understand

if the car moves around. The other thing is if the cornering speed is such, and you have a suspension break or something else, you're going to have a fatality immediately. So there's a balance to everything. So that's why you have...

And the rules are actually very well studied, and there's no magic wand to have it everything perfect but as much as we know today you're still chipping on it here and there and try to find compromises of sort how did you find chipping?

just one thing a page that you're done with this one here? you're done with that one? let me just show you something here. I'm going to take that. With pleasure. For everyone listening,

Neil has just ripped a strip of paper. He's just ripped everything up. I forgot. Many will hear us only on audio. On audio. Yeah, I just ripped a sheet of paper, and now I'm holding the paper up from one edge, and it's drooping over the side of my thing.

It's drooping on the other side. So I'm going to blow over the top of it. Okay. And I'm going to have fast- one edge, and it's drooping over the side. It's drooping on the other side. So I'm going to blow over the top of it. Okay. And I'm going to have fast-moving air above. Over the top. And you would think it would keep the paper pressed down. Right. But in fact...

It lifts the paper up. It lifts the paper up. To the point where so much... So that if I invert that... Right. And put it down, it'll put pressure. Right. It adds to the pressure.

So this is just a little strip of paper way to demonstrate a Bernoulli principle. I just learned something. You didn't know about that? I just learned something. Good. They can do this with your grandkids. Now you're an even better scientist. Kids, this is what I've been doing my whole life. You just blow across the top of the page

and it lifts itself up. That has lower pressure, higher pressure on the other side. There you go. So when you're racing go. That's it. There you go. So when you're racing, that's the point. That's exactly it. I wish I would have known that at the time. Well, this is the value of the cross-pollination of science,

of engineering, of fields. Because aerodynamics, fluid dynamics is all the same thing. Exactly. So your racing style obviously suited this ground effect development because this is the season you go on to win the Formula One World Championship. Was it a case of... Wait a minute. Was it you that won it or was it the ground effect? Both.

There you go. Which brings me to another question. Here's another question. Here's another question. Here's another question. What is the most important element for a win? Is it the machine? Is it the maintenance, meaning the team? Or is it the driver?

Well, I think the percentage varies depending on the track, where the demands are. But number one, I mean, it's team effort, team, team with a capital T, number one. Okay. Number two is obviously the preparation because you have to finish the race to be able to win it. Okay. And then number three is the nature of the track. is the nature of the track. If the track, the layout, the course,

demands more of the car, in other words, the car contributes 70%, and the driver contributes 30% as far as the performance, that means that there's a lot of high speed. The car better be quick, give you all the legs that you need to be competitive. And then you get a lot. The car's just going all out. Yeah.

You get to a course where you have a lot of straightaways. Say you go to Monza, for instance, and then you go to Monte Carlo. Monte Carlo, it's 80% driver, 20% car. Monza, it's 70% driver, 20% car. Monza, it's 70% car, 30% driver. Wow. And those percentages just vary everywhere you go, every track. But, you know, bottom line is, will it, at the end of the season, will it be 50-50 perhaps?

You know, but so, you know, everybody has to contribute. But I would say the best driver in the world cannot win unless the car is capable. Wow. You know, so it's that simple. I loved your metaphor where you said each year a new car is born, a new kind of advance. a new kind of advance. And I don't think most of us are aware that these advances, many of them trickle down into just regular old cars

that make us safer or faster or more aerodynamic. So it's not just crazy people racing fast. It's a frontier of experimental research. No question. This is why you have the major manufacturers involved in the sport. Because there's a sense... It helps them.

They're R&D. It does. You know why? Because there's a sense of urgency in the sport when you have direct competition like right now.

Things have to happen today. Well, GM beat me today. I better up my game tomorrow. Not, okay, manana, okay, we'll get things done, okay. You know, push the can on the road and all that. We'll be fine. No, okay, manana, okay, we'll get things done, okay, you know, push the can on the road and all that. We'll be fine.

No, no, you're not fine. You lose the race. It's now, you know. So, and actually many manufacturers, they bring in engineers that are proper, you know, production engineers

sometimes even too frequent some of the, you know, some of the races to see how the urgency factor plays. Yeah. You know, and so I think the sport, when you look at the developments over the years, the safety aspect of it, how so many things, you know, are just drawn from that. I mean, features such as the disc brakes

well this brakes were first you know actually employed in a racing car they were born there yeah you know so many other things disco brakes yeah Chuck no one was confusing them with the disco brakes. Maybe they have some disco brakes. I have to look at that. I have to look underneath. All right. While you two hit the dance floor, we'll hit a break. We're going to have more. And if you didn't realize that what you're driving today and for maybe the last 20, 30 years owes a lot of its origins

to great racers like Mario Andretti. Don't put it that way. Oh, yeah. I'm putting all the burden on you. We're going to take that break. a lot of its origins to great racers like Mario Andretti. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm putting all the burden on you. We're going to take that break. When we come back, more from the great man and, of course, Neil and Chuck and myself. So stick around.

We're back. Star Talk Sports Edition. We're talking about race car driving, the sportiverse, with my guest co-host, Gary, Chuck, Barber. That's the Jetsons.

Come on now. Close enough-ish. I got you on loan temporarily from playing with science. Thanks for joining StarTalk flagship. And, of course, we have one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest driver of all time, Mario Andretti. Racing royalty. Absolutely.

The Viceroy of velocity. I have to ask him. Yes. When did you first learn, because I was embarrassingly old, when I first learned that race car spells race car in both directions. Oh, I just learned something today. Are you serious? I didn't know that.

Race car is a palindrome? Yes, it is. Oh, yes. Race car, race car. Amy, why didn't you tell me? Look at that. Nobody knew that? I didn't know that.

I was like 80 years old before I found that out. You know what? You've got to come more often. You're never too old to learn. You that out. You know what? You've got to come more often. Never too old to learn. You've got to come more often. I've got to come more often. We can teach each other. So the great thing is you return to the USA.

You are racing for Newman Haas. And the Newman part of that is the Oscar winning actor, Paul Newman. Paul Newman. Now that for me isn't a big deal. God, I love this spaghetti sauce. Isn't it great? I just had his lemonade the other day. Did you really?

We're back to food. It takes you a millisecond to get onto the subject of food. Sorry, but he also liked car racing. He did. But your son Michael joins you as a teammate and this is the first time in history there's a father and

son partnership in IndyCarRacing. Just for the 24-hour Le Mans because you switch off drivers? Is that right? No, no, this is just an engine. Just two cars. Two cars, just two. So not everyone likes their son to follow in their footsteps, but you obviously didn't have a problem.

Well, no, because he was racing regardless with another team. Sounds like someone else we know. Yeah, yes, indeed. In fact, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, to me, it was obviously the sense of pride to have Michael to be so competitive. We've had also the other son, Jeff, you know, that was also a racing driver. But, you know, he was not as fortunate as we were.

You know, he had a terrible accident in Indianapolis in 92, and so that pretty much ended his career. But with Michael, for him to become my teammate, he was at the very peak of his career, of course. And we had some really great successes as teammates because I'll give you the statistics. We were on podium, top three, as long as he was racing 15 times. The two of you?

In the top level. Wow. And we started on the front row 10 times together. Wow. And we finished first and second five times. Wow. So did son let and second five times. Wow. So did son let father win? You know what?

He didn't once. That's amazing. No, he didn't let me win, but he should have won and he had a fuel pickup problem and this was in Portland in 1986. And actually, I nipped him right at the start-finish line

by like two inches. Yeah, seven one-hundredths of a second. But that was a great drive home. It was very quiet. But I'll tell you what. You can't have road rage against your dad. Wait, it was Father's Day. It was Father's Day.

And Michael, I mean, he was not happy on the podium. And then somebody said, Michael, lighten up. He said, it's Father's Day. Okay, happy Father's Day. Happy Father's Day, dad. All right, let's fast forward. Not to dismiss what you achieved, All right, let's fast forward. Not to dismiss what you achieved,

because Michael actually went to Formula One as well, didn't he? Yes. He did. But you now have a two-seated racing car? Well, yeah. Right now in the present day? I drive for a team that actually feels these cars, which give rights to fans uh and and journalists and uh you know just uh celebrities if you will oh so this is just one car it's not

like a circuit where there's two one car with two seats right but yeah but it's a racing car a racing car of no no no it's uh we give you give rides you know rides on a weekend when there is an activity. You're going to race. This past weekend, I was at Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin. It's called Road America. Fabulous four-mile road course. So I give rides there. Usually, like I said, a lot of press.

They love to have it. But what's cool about this is really, I don't know, a better way to showcase our sport because it's a very non-participant sport, if you will. What's cool about this is really, I don't know, a better way to showcase our sport. Because it's a very non-participant sport, if you will. It's not that you can pick up a tennis racket. Good point. I can't do it in my backyard.

In the playground. You can only do it on Super Mario. Right. But not Super Mario Kart. Super Mario Kart. Super Mario Kart. And it's hard to explain. That's the same thing, isn't it? It's the same thing.

Okay, so we have this racing car with an extra seat. And Donkey Kong somehow fits in the car like everybody else. So if you show up to the next race, I'll give you a ride. Oh, if I ever have a space capsule that I take a long time, I'll give you a seat in the space capsule. Mario, what speeds are we talking about going here? Well, it depends on the track. I mean, any road course,

like where I was this past weekend, you know, about maybe 175, 180 on a straightaway. But in India, I could give laps, like lap times of over 200. Oh, yeah. I love it. So let me interject here. Go on.

Because I don't know how much more time we have, but I have to ask. I got to interject here. Go on. I don't know how much more time we have, but I have to ask. Cars today are really different from yesterday. I mean, from decades ago, right? In terms of technology, in terms of the engineering.

Everything. Is there a point where you said, you know, we're losing the driver here because the technology has taken everything over. Is there an old fogey moment? Where you said, you know, in my day, it was all about what we could bring to the car, and now it's what the car is bringing to me. Well, that's another darn good question, actually, because the technology is the way, as much as we know, you could have a car

that would be so much easier to drive. And many of the cynics today will say, oh, yeah, these boys, you know, man, you know, the drivers of yesteryear, those were the champions. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Those were the gladiators. That's the get off my lawn argument. Well, the only thing is that I think the drivers of yesteryear, they didn't have the safety aspect, the safety features that the drivers are enjoying today. That's one thing for sure.

But as far as what's the onus on the driver, that's why you have rules in place. Because you drive your car, you know, your present pleasure car. You have all this, you know, traction control. You have all the power steering. You have all this, you know, traction control. You have all the power steering. You have all this. In the race car, you don't have all those beauties.

You know, you don't have a lot of that assist. So you still, that's what they wanted. You know, the rules are to keep it still a sport. Make the driver, yes. Otherwise, it runs away with itself. Yeah, exactly. You're just an occupant in a seat. You could have it, yeah.

Just another quick example is, you know, to balance the car, you have wings that you can change. Yeah, you can alternate the time. And they have it so, you know, the mechanics have to do it, like during a pit stop. And then we got, I get emails, I get something from engineers, and they send you a design, a schema, that, oh, you could do it with a button inside. Of course you could, but you're not allowed, you know what I mean?

There's so many things that have to be done manually. To keep it real. To keep it real. So, again, it's still, you know, it's still a sport, you know. Because if it runs away with itself, then you just have AI competing against AI. Right, exactly.

AI drivers, right? You just sit in the car and listen to the radio. Which brings me to this thought. What is your opinion on driverless cars and would you ever get in one? I knew you were going to bring that up. The driver of the century. Driver of the century.

How do you feel about driverless cars? What kind of stupid question is that? What's that big gray thing in the corner? No. It's an elephant.

Right? It has to be addressed. The elephant is here. Okay. Elephant in the room. But don't talk to me about it. No, I mean,

it's out there, you know, of course. And can you imagine that's probably the end of our sport as we know it. No, I mean, it's out there, you know, of course. And can you imagine, that's probably the end of our sport, as we know it. No, no, I don't agree. I think it's actually going to increase the popularity of your sport, because people will be so curious about what it is to drive a car, that people who actually drive and drive on the level that you drive will be like gods among us. My kids have no interest in ever driving cars.

They're 18 and 22. They can't wait for self-driving cars. And they don't want to drive a car. They don't care. But they grew up in New York. That's true. That's a different story. But here's my thing.

Here's where I agree with you, sort of. Okay? 1905 sort of. Okay? 1905 to 1920. Okay. The civilized world transitioned from horses to cars. Very quickly. Quicker than anyone would have... We had horses for thousands of years.

That's right. And by 1920, you couldn't give away a horse. But we still love horses. Hang on. But that's my point. So as cars replaced horses on the road, the people who still loved horses would go to horse stables

to still ride their horses and go over the jumps. And so it became a place where you would take your hobby. So I'm suggesting that in the future that Chuck is commenting on, the roads will just be driverless cars, but there'll be these tracks that you go to.

Car farms. You park your car, you park your race car at that track, and it lives there. Right. And then you take a self-driving car to your race car. So you can drive.

And then you can drive 200 miles an hour. And then that's your Saturday afternoon outing. You know what? What? Those country clubs of driving already exist. Oh, really? I wouldn't know. I'm black.

Not all country. And you're more than welcome there, by the way. More than welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Not all country clubs. Oh, okay. All right.

No, they're everywhere. Everywhere. Actually, more Mark. It's not all country clubs. Oh, okay. All right. No, they're everywhere. Everywhere, actually. What's a country club? Like a car club? Yeah, it's actually a facility where you have the beautiful layout of a racetrack. And with all the amenities and the safety features and all of that. And it's organized. You know, you have the corner workers and all the things that are at the professional race tracks.

But you can go there. You have, you can become a member. You have a Lamborghini. You have a Ferrari. You have, you know. So you can bring your own personal vehicle. Bring your own personal car. And drive it in a professional track setting.

Exactly. Awesome. Exactly. I was just there. Now how do they feel about me bringing my Toyota Highlander? You can bring anything you like. Actually, you can bring a Yugo, if you like. Oh, they don't have Yugos here.

We used to have Yugos. Oh, you used to have, yeah. They put you on the Yugo track. That's a different track. Oh, right. It's a slower track. It's a slower track. Oh, no, no, no.

It's all Yugo. No, it's a communist track. The wall at the end. All right, let's look at what you've done after racing. You know, Manhattan has a classic car club. There's not a racetrack, but you can go

rent a Lamborghini. So it's just rented for the weekend. For your date. On the West Side Highway? Yeah, right there. I just looked for the weekend, for your date. On the West Side Highway? Yeah, right there. I've been there. I just looked in the window. And I drove a Lamborghini right into where everything was happening.

Yeah, it's there. It's very cool. Yeah, everybody was having some drinks at the tables and everything else. It's a tremendous waste of horsepower driving into Manhattan. But nonetheless, it looks good. However, I've got to tell you this. I would certainly think that I drank too much if I'm sitting having a drink and I see Mario Andretti fly in.

Like, did that just happen? No, no, I didn't. All right, we got to stop. We've had enough. Put down the drink. Okay, so let's relate the wine to the cars. Mario, there is a winery in Napa, Andretti Winery, that you are vice chairman of.

How on earth do you get involved in the wine business? And how on earth do I get involved with you getting involved in the wine business? Well, if you have a weak moment in your life, talk to me. Because that's how I got involved, during a weak moment in my life. And that's why I brought in a chairman because I didn't want to be the chairman. I didn't want to run. I just wanted to drink the stuff.

All right, there you go. Is it good? We're very proud. Indeed, actually, we were just, we have several varieties, all the major varieties. Red, white, and rosé. We've got both kinds, red and white.

Yeah, we do. And We've got both kinds. Red and white. Yeah, we do. And we have the usual varietals. We have Italian varietals and so on and so forth. And just as recent as last week, this week we were actually considered one of the top, top five wineries in Upper Valley. Really?

Well done, you. I'm going to go look this up again. It's really, actually, I'm so proud. Your phone might ring shortly. It's a nice, it's a quaint, you think it's a quaint, it's a modest little winery, but it's very quaint and very relaxing. You don't need an appointment. You arrive there at the tasting room and so on.

It's called a boutique winery. It is a boutique winery. It is a boutique winery, yeah. I'm very proud of that, actually. Very good. They have a great winemaker, and our wines have meddled. And again, I'm very proud. That's fantastic. It's very important, actually.

Are we surprised? Neil's going to have to buy a case so that we can check it out. Are we surprised that Mario, former world champion in the NASCAR, his wine's meddled? I heard that. Are we surprised? I did hear that. Well, look, that's it.

We are out of time. We are up. We've reached the checkered flag. I have to ask one last question. Okay. It is rumored, I want to confirm it since you're sitting next to me, that you once said, if you are in control of your car, you're not in the race.

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. Wow. That there is no greater wisdom in life than that. Take that to the bank. Our version of that in science is the day you stop making errors is the day you are no longer on the frontier

of discovery. That's our version of that quote. Makes sense. Mario, fist bump on... Oh, man. Let the record show

I just fist bumped Mario Andretti. Right, which counts as a car crash. A nice one. We got to bring this to close. We have. Do it. All right. Mario, thank counts as a car crash. A nice one. We've got to bring this to close.

We've got to bring this to close. Do it. All right. Mario, thank you. You've been a charming, wonderful host. My pleasure.

And we should do this every week. We should. I'll be here. I'll be here. Chuck and Gary, thanks for coming on loan from playing with science.

You're welcome. We've had the honor of being with Mario and your good self. And to StarTalk's flagship. And I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. You're a personal ast've had the honor of being with Mario and your good self. And to StarTalk's flagship. And I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. You're a personal astrophysicist. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.