StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Basketball Shoe Technology, with Julius “Dr. J” Erving, Ray Allen, and Rasheed Wallace

Episode Date: May 11, 2018

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…Lace ‘em up! Explore the past, present, and future of basketball shoe technology with hosts Chuck Nice, Gary O’Reilly, NBA legends Julius “Dr. J.” Erving, Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, and Converse’s Jon Garon.Photo Courtesy of Nike.com. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly and I'm Chuck Knight and this is Playing With Science. Welcome to part two of our basketball mini-series where today we focus on basketball shoe technology. Yes. Part one was an old school Philly loving for which we make no apologies. And as a spoiler, part two has Dr. J and Rasheed Wallace front and center and have some pretty cool stories to tell us about shoe design and how and why

some shoes made it on court. Absolutely. And to keep it fresh, we're going to add another NBA star, Ray Allen, who's going to tell us what's going on with the new Nike Jordans. And his shoes are, God, they are just out of this world. Yeah, they're fantastic. Yeah, they're super, super cool. And to make sure that we know our A to Zs,

we have Converse's Global Product Line Manager and F and fountain of shoe knowledge, John Garron. Yes, and with that, we must thank the good people of both Nike and Converse for allowing us unique access to their athletes during the Nike Art of Champions launch in April 2018. Although we are not sponsored by either, we have a due duty to pay our respects and thanks. What better way to start than to revisit the point at which basketball shoe technology really got off the ground? And with that, it's John Garron of Converse talking about the man some of you may not even have heard of, Chuck Taylor. Yes!

Here we are at Nike's Art of Champions. Yes, basketball, NBA. We've got stars coming up. But first, we have John from Converse. You're part of the technical team, John? Yeah, so I work on product marketing. So I'm a senior product line manager for Converse. I got fortunate enough to partake in this cross-brand collaboration with Nike. So for us in our authenticity in basketball, particularly on court, if you look at the first playable basketball shoe, the Converse Chuck Taylor All-Star, right? Yes, sir. And by the way, Chuck Taylor was a real ball player.

He was one of the best players, one of the best coaches, and really helped evolve basketball into the modern day game. So Chuck Taylor became a salesman for Converse and what he identified was he wanted to enhance the product for the basketball player. So looking at rubber compounds, which back in the 30s, traction and durability. Canvas upper, which at the time was a very technical performance upper, versus today where you have fly in it. So he must have been probably one of the first mainstream athletes to come in and get involved

in shoe design, equipment design. Absolutely, just like Phil Bowerman and Phil Knight from a running aspect, you look at Chuck Taylor in basketball, right? The medial Chuck Taylor patch, which is iconic today with youth culture from a style perspective, was actually a performance feature which gave you more durability and support as you were cutting back in the 30s. So, you know, you look at where Chuck Taylor was then to where we are today,

where you have Flyknit, you have VaporMax, AirMax, DualStackMax. I mean, the performance features now for that athlete really have moved and progressed and are so innovative. I mean look at the athletes. What's changed the game? What's been the one thing between Chuck and now, not this Chuck. Yes, this Chuck. That Chuck. Because this Chuck has changed the game.

Has it again? It's made it so much worse. In my opinion, I would say the cushioning platforms, right? So, you know, you look at Zoom to Air, it's all about the player and how they want to perform, right? They want to be fast, they want to perform right they want to be fast they want to come you know if they're going to grab a rebound what are the features and benefits to give that the player the maximum performance features to really excel and be top athletes in the sport of the game and take it to a new space see that's what's interesting when you go into

whichever sporting goods store you frequent and you walk out with your basketball shoes, whether they be high tops or not, you are going out with the intelligence of an NBA superstar having gone into the making of those shoes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what's always been popular. You're kind of like getting an NBA experience on your feet as you walk around town. It's interesting to think, going back to what John was saying there, canvas was once cutting edge. I love it.

It's rubber and canvas, the two together. Oh, my God, we are so technologically advanced. We put canvas on rubber. That's amazing. And I love the fact that he said the patch for ankle support. That's amazing. And I love the fact that he said the patch for ankle support. So you take that, you being any of us, take that ankle patch for granted.

Yeah. But then realize that it's actually there for a solidity to stabilize. To stabilize the high top part of the shoe. Yes. And then we get into that classic function and form. The reason why it is the way it is is like a high top with the ankle patch and this it's to perform a certain function and i think the way it goes through that and then the point where you always imagine the big sports brands just churn out stuff and you know what this is what you're gonna get this year this is what i'm going to get this year. This is what you're going to get the next year.

But this sort of shoe technology is driven by the athletes themselves. This is what I need. And then they work towards that and bring that into mainstream. So you're always benefiting from the input of not just the really smart design engineers, but the athletes themselves, because they work in a very good tandem. Well, the one thing I have to say about the Chuck Taylors is the fact that from a style standpoint,

they hold up today. So, I mean, look how long we're talking that these shoes have been, or sneakers have been on the market, and still people, I mean, I have... Getting up in 90 years. I easily have three pair at home. Yeah still people, I mean, I have. Getting up in 90 years. I easily have three pair at home. Yeah.

Easily. So, I mean. Who hasn't worn their Converse to pieces and loved them even more? So, I mean, they're durable as a style, but they're built to have been functional. You could hear what John was saying there. The rubberized soul. The whole way the things were structured. They were built to endure games of basketball,

not just one and done. And I think we're going to hear that phrase coming up. So let's get to our next clip. This time, John from Converse talking about one of their greatest ever ambassadors of course it's that man again Dr. J. So we've got Dr. J and I mean he's a brand icon for Converse how much influence has he had himself on shoe design? Yeah you know he's he's actually a lot of hands-on you know I was talking to a

former developer who actually used to work with him back you know know, when he was developing product in the 70s. And he was saying that he had a lot of insights just to really make sure that he was maximizing design and performance back in the 70s into the 80s to really excel and take him to that next level. Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. You're using, I mean, Chuck Taylor was there founding this process, but you've got someone like Dr. J who is now, and in John's words, taking it to the next level. So, right, talking of which, let's speak to the man himself and hear exactly what Dr. J thought about the footwear that he was involved with at Converse. Let's get to the shoes.

These are very much in the old school style, but you've had such an involvement with this brand over the years. Did you have any sort of input into design? Well, you know, back in the 70s when I signed with Converse, that was like 1972, 73 or whatever. Yeah, they did have a biotechnical lab development person, and I actually ran into him last year, the guy who used to sit in there, he used to make my shoes, and they used to have a last of my foot, and they'd do trial and error, and then I'd have to go in and, you know,

make adjustments so that, you know, my shoes would fit just right. So you had custom-made shoes, especially for you? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had bad toes. They couldn't have been that bad. Bunions, corns, all that kind of stuff. I've been wearing sneakers all my life. So they have a department for it.

All the companies do. Commerce still has one. And they don't make my shoes custom anymore because I'm not competing. But that last one was very important. They actually presented it to me as a present. They did? That's a nice touch. So the mold of all the molds.

It's interesting. So what you're hearing there is they don't just give you a box with shoes in it and say, you wear those now. Once you get to the level that Dr. J was at, they now take plaster casts of your feet, they make a last of your foot. And as he said, you know,

I had one or two things that weren't perfect on my feet, so I needed certain requirements. That now, if you wanted to do that for an athlete, I know from my experience in soccer, that's probably close to about $100,000. Wow. To now start to customize and bespoke footwear for an athlete. Wow. And so you are investing an awful lot in this one person because this person is the on-court ambassador.

This guy is going to make your footwear look like it's off the chart. Fantastic. Now, you idolize Dr. J, and we've heard you say, as far as you're concerned, he was godlike. If that god is wearing Converse, what are you going to be rocking around in? You know, I have to admit, he might be the only pair of sneakers that I ever purchased. be the only pair of sneakers that I ever purchased. Like, that, because of it. Like, Chuck Taylor, though, is a, oh, God, I'm such a narcissist. I still wear Chuck Taylors.

Why not? Why not be proud of that? Because it had my name. There you go. That's what it is. I mean, to be honest, that's it. But I think the only, like, athlete influence footwear that I ever bought was when the Dr. J Converse came out. They had like a star on them and a little arrow.

And I think I did have a pair of those. And see, that's what it's about. You see, you are using, utilizing that athlete's persona, the athletic ability, the whole traction that an athlete has in terms of a fan base and cynically monetizing it for your brand, which is understandable and acceptable in modern society. Then it was quite, you know, you were only the very, very, very, very best that that would happen to. Now it's a lot. There's a lot more goes on because sport now is so much bigger globally. And these players are now,

and these companies are making shoes to enhance the performance of the players. So you're, when you, there is something to having a pair of Jordans or having a pair of, you know, oh, I forget the guy's name that my son wears. But there's something to it because these players are giving their input to a company and that company is taking that input and then designing a shoe

that hopefully will respond to the player's request in terms of performance enhancement. And so, you know, maybe it can help your game. So in the mind of a fan, you are getting a piece of that superstar when you purchase the footwear. I'd rather just go through the garbage. Not again. Yeah, that's kind of how I do it. Right, that's for you.

So in a sense, you are because you're getting the intelligence of the athlete, their experience of what they require on court. And as such, you really are getting a piece of what helps make them the person that they idolize so much. Right, we're going to take our first break. More from Dr. J, more from Rashid Wallace. And we'll introduce a new band member. Oh, yeah, Ray Allen. Yes.

Yes, we will. All coming up after the break. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Knight. And this is Playing With Science. And we're talking about basketball shoe design and technology. Chuck and I went to Nike's Art of Champion launch early in April. And we had a fine old time. We got to meet some incredible NBA superstars.

And the wonderful John Garron from Converse, who gave us an awful lot of inside information about shoe technology. But Chuck's new best friend, NBA icon and legend Rashid Wallace. Rashid! There you go. Who, it's fair to say, is a unique character. And when we asked him about why he was rocking the Nike Air Force Ones on court during a career, I think this answer is going to be everything a young fan wants to hear. In fact, I love this answer. So play the clip and

then I can get my loving back on. All right, let's look at these Air Force One. Now your favorites, your shoe. I'm told this was an off court shoe. How come you brought it back on? Well, it was originally an off court basketball shoe made for the schoolyards. Right. When I was growing up in Philly, this is what we wore. Everybody wore them, low tops, high tops. And so what I tried to do when I got to the NBA was keep the tradition going. It was something that I was used to.

It protected my ankles, which I needed. You wanted that connect. Oh, yeah, definitely. It's where I'm from. Yeah. I got to put that Philly stamp on the league or on wherever I'm at. And that was my stamp. Got to have the strap in the back like that.

Absolutely. Everything. High top because of support for the ankle or because that was fashion? For me, it was high top for support of the ankle. Got to protect your money makers. There you go. How many games a season for you on a regular basis? Oh wow, it was a lot. I made the playoffs every year of my career except for my rookie season.

That's why you're at the high tops. That's why. Function. Function over form. For sure. This is what I love about the answer. He wanted to make sure that where he came from growing up playing ball in the streets was represented on court he hadn't forgotten where he was from and i think that that's that's a just a genuine heartfelt answer and and it speaks volumes to the man but that's exactly why i wear wingtips on the court because it represents where i'm from. What, flying school? What? Did I miss something?

So the thing is, but then he says, right, the high top was because I needed to protect my moneymakers. I needed that. It goes back to the ankle patch with Chuck Taylor. So now we have the evolution. So we now have a more obvious ankle support because the guys will definitely be strapping their ankles. Yeah, well, they're definitely going to tape up no matter what. So the thing is that when you say just tape up, anybody can tape an ankle up. But if you tape it in a right degree, a 90-degree angle, you're not going to be able to run.

So when you tape an athlete's foot, you've got to follow the certain muscle and ligamenture of the foot itself cool so as you replicate the way that those move and you're giving it support in the places you need to and so and that adds to it so that's yeah it's all about i'm from philly i grew up on the streets this is me but i'm sensible enough to know how to know how to do it so he's got the right medical people around him to give him what he needs. I also love the fact that he threw in a little stat that I was unaware of that I thought was extremely cool, and that is he said, I made the playoffs every single

year of my career. Ball one. That's amazing. That's like, God, no wonder he's going to the Hall of Fame. Point one, to take a slightly contrarian stance, he was on a good team. Okay, so point one, to take a slightly contrarian stance, he was on a good team. Well, you could say that.

Or he made whatever team he was on good enough to make the playoffs. It depends which side of this coin you're on. But I think if you kind of get there once or twice, you may have got lucky. But when you did it it every year but one and he's got a championship ring to to show for all those endeavors that's pretty cool right okay next clip um right now on court footwear is almost unrecognizable from the kicks from say 15 20 years

ago you think back to the chuck taylor's you think back to dr jay's footwear from the 70s so the only person we could ask about the now was a guy in the room who was rocking the brand new nike jordans nba all-star ray allen yeah sneaker heads will love this here another n another NBA superstar, Ray Allen. Now, Ray, you've got to talk us through this shoe because we've got Dr. Joe over there, which is really good old-school stuff, but these... Yeah, this is beyond futuristic.

This is different, so you've got to talk me through what's happening here. Well, I mean, when I first got the shoe, it was interesting because one thing we always say about the shoe industry is, where do we go from here? Right. And the people don't know what they like until we show them. So when this shoe came to the market, it was like, it's a boot.

Right. You know, we're wearing a boot. That's something that's never been done because we went, the high top was something, you know, when we were growing up and then we went to three quarters, a lot of people didn't want the bulky shoe. Right. So this gave the semblance of a high top shoe, but also to be dressed down into a low top. So for me it gave me great comfortability. Almost as if it's like a heavyweight sock. Yeah. You're able to bring through.

Well this is very like very soft. I mean it's very rigid too so it doesn't lose its... Does it give you the support around the ankle joint that you need? Because we spoke to Rashid and he said I needed that high top, I needed that point where I could anchor and protect. Well the one thing about when you're playing on that level, like nothing really gives you the support that you need, so you have to tape your ankles anyway. Gotcha.

Yeah, so we don't just solely rely on the ability to shoe to keep your ankle locked in, we're taped and we have ankle braces on. So who knew that NBA ankles were very much like my family? Nobody will give you the support that you need. Oh, hug that man. Come on, man. You know that was funny.

Thank you. It was funny. You know that was funny. Come on. You twisted his arm. You went up and twisted his arm behind his back so you know that was funny. But no, because I could see he was just like,

hey, what kind of interview is this? This guy is making jokes about his family, not loving them. And I don't think he realized that. He needs to tune into more Playing With Science. Yeah, exactly. He does. I mean, we love it, right? Because he wanted to laugh,

but I get it. Listen, I get it. These guys are high-profile people. You laugh at the wrong thing, all of a sudden, all the angry heads on Twitter are just like, I can't believe you laughed at the joke about people. There are a lot of people who don't have families and you know what they're just not laughing shut up so you know uh it's a joke and you know but i saw him smiling

but he didn't want to laugh and that's why i was like but you know that's funny he was like it was funny it was but no he's i mean he's you can see can see he's a modern guy with a modern mindset. But I mean, talking about his shoes, for those people who haven't had a chance to see these things, they are something else. I mean, you've got an almost articulated sole with a heel pad that gets a bridge across to the front of the foot where you've got a sort of rounded gel. So there's mobility and flexibility but support and comfort.

And it's wrapped. It's like a shoe wrapped in a shoe. Now we sound like a couple of shoe fetishes. Yeah. So now you zip it down the front

and then the high top bit that you've always laced up and there's a strap around the back for Rashid, that's all gone. This stuff folds back. It opens up.

Right. And it slops down like a sock and and then you just bring it back up. Yeah. And you're thinking, oh, man, these are too good to wear. I'm not going to wear anything like this. No, I don't think people are going to wear it. You know, there's these sneakerheads now that you have these kids that actually go and they collect shoes.

They never wear them. Oh, yeah. They use them as commodities. They keep them. They trade them. It's like anything. Yeah. They're collectibles. They never wear them. Oh, yeah. They use them as commodities. They keep them. They trade them. It's like anything. Yeah, they're collectibles. They increase in value.

These shoes, I can tell you right now, are going to be on that par. There's no way. Like, I don't see anybody wearing those shoes. I would buy those shoes and not wear them. They're probably not out yet. No, they're not out yet. That's why. I mean, they were something else.

And Ray had a pair on, and it was like all eyes on those bad boys. I've got to look this up. I wonder if his shoes are out. You know, we saw this at the beginning of April. So, you know, by now they might be out. Maybe. I wonder. I'm going to actually look this up right now.

Okay, so now we've got shoes where there's a separate heel, a separate front for support and obviously comfort and just springiness and you know all those things and just i mean oh hang on a minute what am i what's the word i'm looking for oh wait okay yeah they're out okay they're not out there they are oh my god this is amazing so they're not out but i mean listen we're not even doing a commercial for nike but i got to tell you if you're if you're a sneakerhead and you're in, oh, my God. You're going to want these.

There's gold. Look how, I don't want to say on the air, but look how much they are. Oh, my goodness. Where's the decimal point? Look at that. Oh, wow. Dude, that's insane. All right, so, yeah, you don't wear these, okay?

I just made up my mind. No, you buy these and you look. And you put them in a safety deposit box. And you look at them. That's what you do with these sneaks, man. These shoes, insane. And you look at them. That's what you do with these sneaks, man. These shoes. Insane. Whoa.

Wow. Okay. Anyway, I have to tell you. Now I know how much they cost. I'm sure, thinking about it just for a millisecond, I should have asked for a pair. Yeah, I should have, too. Or two. These are instant collectibles.

That's all I can tell you. If you're a sneakerhead, you're going to love these Ray Allen Nike. The brand new Nike Jordans. They're absolutely anglicized. They're Nike instead of Nike. But anyway, okay. They're super gorgeous and they're functional. They've got all that support. They've got all

that compression. I mean, they've got such a function, but they look off the chart gorgeous. Which makes me think about, I mean, how much is now the shoe advancing the player? Does the player make the shoes this? And do you now get into shoe doping? How close do we get to, and can you dope a shoe, apart from obviously in sort of putting springs in it or maybe some type of…

Yeah, it's like Bugs Bunny just going to tie springs to his feet and jump in the air. Well, no, there was a company, and they're called APL. I think it's Athletic Propulsion Labs. So I met the two guys. I think it's… You met them? Yeah, Adam and Ryan. I'm not sure.

All right. But I met them at a function. Is it Adam and Ryan? Adam and Ryan Gold function. Is it Adam and Ryan? Yeah, Adam and Ryan Goldstein. They created a shoe that was banned from the NBA because it added like an inch or so

more. What were they, platform heels? No, because they had some, whatever materials they use actually added like an inch and a half to your vertical. So the NBA was just like, no, you're basically doping. It's like flubber. Yeah, exactly. You're like doping.

It's basically shoe doping. Wow. Like you said, it's shoe doping. So it goes back to the point where the shoe has to complement the athlete. Right. And not give the athlete any unfair advantage. And in the case of the new Nike Jordans, look unbelievably good. Right, we're just jealous we don't have the money to buy them.

We'll take a break and just tool around in our crummy little sneakers that aren't worth $500, not at all, even if we've worn them, when we come back, more on the future technology in basketball shoes, plus Rasheed Wallace's thoughts on being a cyborg. Yeah, playing with science. We'll be back shortly. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Knight. And this, of course, is still Playing With Science.

And we are drilling down and mining basketball shoe technology and we are coming up with some real nuggets we are still unbelievably envious of Ray Allen's new basketball shoes yeah and we won't mention the price again because it's really really expensive uh and I guess not to these well you know what here's what's funny as I. They get given them. Yeah, I saw this article. There's a guy here in New York City. He owns a consignment shop for sneakerheads where they take these shoes like we're talking about.

Yeah. And, you know, they use them like an exchange. It's a part of his thing. Yeah, like a commodity. exchange. It's a part of the system. Yeah, like a commodity. And there's a pair of sneakers right now that are $27,000 per pair.

Wow. And I don't know, I'm not a sneakerhead, so I don't know. I'm just, you know, I was just online and doing some research for the show, and it's really not what we're talking about, but I had to stop and read the article. $27,000. You wouldn't even wear them at home no yeah i wouldn't even are you kidding me i wouldn't even take them i wouldn't even take them home kidding me twenty seven thousand dollars straight to the bank vault yeah exactly i'm hiring an armed guard to stand by him all day long you know you put your feet near those shoes. Wow. Okay. So if we think Ray Allen's footwear is trending right now, but what, what will be on your feet maybe five, 10 years time? Um, only person to speak to about this is Converse's global line production manager,

John Garon. He opens the box. Yes, that shoe box and,, and gives us a little sneak peek inside. So finally, what are we looking forward to when you look at the industry as a whole? What is the future tech coming forward that you think is really going to revolutionize things? So I think it's minimal design that is just ultimate performance. So you look at, you know, one piece uppers that are just constructed with super durability, lightweight, and definitely give you that support for the athlete to really take it to the next space. So the hockey guys heat mold the upper of the skate to the foot.

Are we going to see that kind of technology coming in? Is it going to be worth it? Because if it's minimal, do you have the support around the ankle joints or are you coming into more of that, as you say, the one piece and maybe molding? So yeah, I think definitely if you look at a lot of the 3D printing and you know the scanning of the feet absolutely I think that will be something that you know ultimately we get to but for now I think you know you can get full support if the shoe is designed properly and it just kind of cradles and hugs your foot. The molding is definitely something that people have looked into and will evolve.

I mean, you look at Foamposite and that technology, but I think lightweight and durable are the things that this athlete really wants to take them into the next phase. So if I buy a new pair of basketball shoes, I will be an NBA player? I can't speak for you, but... Just say yes. Just say yes. I'm sensing no. I think you should try. There you go.

That's the right answer. I've been patted on the head, aren't I? Hey, John, thanks so much, man. We really appreciate you talking to us. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, yeah. So what we're seeing now,

and we are freaked out by Ray Allen's super cool kicks, but John's telling us there, that's not it. Yeah, that's not even it. This thing's got so much more left in it. I mean, when we spoke to, was it Craig Desjardins from Bauer? Right. About heat molding.

Heat molding. The boot for skates. Yeah. Already doing that. So they're working on that and then you've got the 3D printing. I can see that happening. Memory phone.

Memory phone. For the, just, oh. Which makes sense when you think about it, because, like, all right, you ever go to a pharmacy or, like, whatever type of store, and they have, like, the thing you step your feet on there, and then it gives you kind of a semi-bespoke orthotic that you can slip into your shoe. So your sublimation, your pronate, where your pressure is, your pressure points. Yeah, and then you can, you know, it tells you which one. It's already manufactured, but now we're talking about getting to a place where, you know, you get that scan done, and then you go not to the store, but to your printer and print out that for yourself.

Like I said, this, pun intended here, this is going to run and run. Thank you. We got there. Got a giggle. So you can see about lightweight, but not compromising the function. It's got to perform.

And these guys aren't going to be walking around in shoes that do not give them exactly what they want on court. And so lightweight, lightweight. I mean, so now talk from a professional soccer standpoint, does it make that much of a difference after a couple hours on your feet? Do you feel the difference? Psychologically? Yeah. Because I don't want to be out there in diver's boots. I don't want to be having to drag myself. By the way, you just gave me a great idea for a new sport, flipper soccer, where you play soccer wearing flippers. Oh, so cool.

Okay, I'm sorry. I digress. Get back to your point. You're happy now? You got that off your chest? Yeah? Feel better? So the thing is, psychologically, if you pick these shoes up and you think, wow, they're so much lighter than what I'm wearing, I can run so much faster.

I'll have less fatigue. Wow. Because psychologically, everything comes out of there. Because if you tell yourself you're tired or if your coach says, oh, my team are tired, they've been playing a lot of games, you'll be like, yeah, I'm tired. Oh, man, yeah, now the coach mentions it. I'm tired. No, you're not. Coach, don't be saying that stuff.

They're superhuman. They're incredible. And they're saying, yeah, I am superhuman. I am incredible. These shoes are super lightweight. Therefore, I'll run further. I'll run faster. I won't have fatigue.

I'm cool with this. And it goes off inside here. And that dictates everything that goes on below the head. And that lightweight and molded combination, that's the holy grail of the running shoe too because everybody's trying to make the shoe where it mimics you running barefoot, which apparently is something that we did for millions of years.

We ran barefoot and it kind of takes us back there. But it's pretty exciting and interesting to think about that there's so much technology that goes into what goes on your feet when it comes to sports. How interesting. We are now talking about going back to the future. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

We're going to reinvent the barefoot. Exactly. In a shoe. It's like, okay. But then again, we revert to nature in so many different things in design quite often. And I'm not surprised we're going to end up going back to a minimalistic type of footwear, but with all of the functionality required for each sport. All right.

You and your best bud, Rashid, you got together again. And now your sort of techie mind got carried away. And as soon as everything about today's show is shoe tech uh you couldn't let Rashid go without uh getting his thoughts on something else which is what piece of tech would you really like from today and take it back to you as a player so let's hear what uh Rashid had to say. So let's move away from sneakers for a minute. Let's talk about Rasheed, all right? Now, we do a lot of interviews with guys about tech and basketball because, you know, there's a lot of things happening right now in the sport

where they're working with guys using VR, they're working with guys using tracking devices and things like that. Is there any technology that you see these young guys have today that you would have liked to have when you were playing? Oh, definitely the tech and the shoes and some of the gear. When you have some of the undergear, the Under Armour, or the Nike gear, and it has the little slots in it where it keeps your heart rate and beats per minute and all that stuff.

All the GPS telemetrics. If I would have had that, definitely. It would have been It would have been all in there for a whole different game for you. She'd Wallace plus That could have been it That's funny that he went with the tracking data. Yeah, because obviously He's a man that needs to know How is his body performing? How is he?

Physically, how is he because I might feel like I'm on top of my game, but my bio data says, guy, you're burnt out. Right. Now, the other thing is there, when you get to that stage where you're basically red flagged, as they would call it now, your body doesn't come up with, hey, buddy, your red flag. Right. No, this data has to be available to your coaching staff for them to tell you. And then what they do is they withdraw you from training. They might have to withdraw you from a game or two. Your body then naturally heals itself.

You are then in. Because if you go through that initial red flag, you just keep going. So now you're on basic reserves and you've burnt yourself out. And you don't even realize it. No, you don't realize it until ping, the sound of a muscle tearing. That's, if you're lucky, two or three games. If not, that's two or three months. Now that's just season wiped out because there was not the ability to identify you entering into that zone before. This is why

for Rashid, in my mind, that feedback of information would be so vital for him. See, and I thought that's what they made steroids for. Maybe they do. I couldn't say. Not qualified to comment on that at all. How fastly can I skip on from there? Oh, gosh. That's a good answer by him, though, man. I really, the data tracking is really a big deal, you know. It is for everybody. And it's what you, the other interesting thing that, of what you were talking about, I forget who it was. I forget which.

It was either a nutritionist or somebody from the Zebra Company, and we were talking about one of the things that they found most integral in proper training, sleep. And that goes back to what you were saying. Oh, that was the nutritionist. Who was that, yeah. Who works with the Jets and the Red Sox. Yes, I forget his name. And basically, they learned that through this data tracking that, hey, man,

you know what? You need a rest. And you know what else? You need to get some sleep. And it's quality of sleep. Right. So there are certain elite sports clubs, some of the big clubs I know in Europe in terms of football, and I'm sure NBA and NFL clubs are equally as prepared. They monitor each player's, each athlete's sleep patterns. Wow. So as they know exactly how much they've got, because if they're not getting the required sleep, they know the performance levels are going to be compromised.

So they are now micromanaged. But then again, they're expected to perform at a very, very high level. What you do is you give your players every single piece of support you can to achieve high-level performance. achieve high level performance. Right. And therefore give yourself the W every single time or give yourself the opportunity to be better placed to get the W every time. Well, I'd be great at that because sleep, that's where I'm a Viking. Yeah.

There you go. Right. While Chuck hopefully doesn't burn his boat and fire arrows into the night sky. Oh gosh. And because it's our way i think really uh while i think about chuck being a viking no it doesn't work um seriously it doesn't work but it's our way here on playing with science to tinker with and straight up change stuff particularly chuck and as far as chuckingston said, NBA superstars are fair game and are no different. And we will try to change them, too. So Chuck put Rasheed Wallace in his sights about being a cyborg.

Let's hear what the big man had to say about that. All right. Let me ask you this. This is this is a psychological question. We're going to get into the head of Rasheed Wallace right now. Cool. If I could put a chip in your brain that would make you never miss a shot, would you rather have that or would you decline it to just play under your own influence? I would have to decline that. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. It's more fun to play under your own influence. It's more fun to challenge yourself with some internal things. If I know that whatever, and it's good, and it's good. It's not really. That doesn't do it for you. Nah, nah.

There's no thrill there. No thrill. Real Rasheed, gotta be real. Yeah, you know, sometimes that miss you gotta do. It gotta be a hard miss or a soft miss or maybe even an air ball. Make it work harder. You see, not for me.

No, no, no, but that was. I'm gonna light it up, baby. Put that tip in my head and watch me make every single shot. What people can't see is what happened when we asked Rashid that question. He started to throw imaginary basketballs over his shoulder into an imaginary basketball. That's true. And then he was just like, nah, that's no fun.

There's no fun in that. There are guys that will go, oh, yeah, stick that chip in there. Let's see what I can really do. And then Rasheed went, no, it's got to be me. I want to have full control. And if I don't make it, I'm going to get angry, another word, about it. But I'm going to come back. I'm going to be the man that makes the change.

I'm going to be the guy that puts it through the hoop the next time. I'm going to be the guy that does that dribble. I'm going to be the, and he uses all the reality, which is why they're keeping it real. And that's what I think fans get to. This guy, this athlete, this player,

if they show that they're real, if they show that they're connected to where they came from and how, and they're show that they're real, if they show that they're connected to where they came from and how, and they're living and they're thinking, they'll love that player forever. Absolutely. And he was an intense player, and that's the difference between Rasheed Wallace and Chuck Nice.

See, I know for a fact that I'm not making the shot, so I'm taking the chip. Right. Misuse of technology flag on the play. Hopefully you've enjoyed today's show. It's a slightly different take on technology. But with the athletes, these NBA superstars themselves, giving a little insight into what goes on.

And of course, Converse's John Garron opening up the history, which I think is vital to understand, but also what we will be seeing. Not might be, will be seeing in the future. And it could be absolutely amazing. Fascinating stuff and a fun show, man. Yeah, I've been Gary O'Reilly. And I've been Chuck Nice. And this has been Basketball Shoe Technology from Playing With Science.