StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Extended Classic: The Art of the Hail Mary

Episode Date: November 23, 2017

Hosts Gary O’Reilly & Chuck Nice dissect the famous “Miracle at Michigan” Hail Mary pass with the man who threw it, Kordell Stewart, and physicist John Eric Goff. Now extended with Chuck, Gary and John answering your Cosmic Queries about physics and football.Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:TuneIn: tunein.com/playingwithscienceApple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceStitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/extended-classic-the-art-of-the-hail-mary/?safari_redirect Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly and I'm Chuck Nice and this is Playing With Science. Yes today my friends we are about to take you to the point of no return, the moment when all else seems lost and your last hope is but a prayer. But if your quarterback has a cannon for an arm and that prayer happens to be a Hail Mary, the outcome can sometimes be really quite miraculous. Yes, bless me, Father, for I have sinned. Today we're looking at the art of the Hail Mary, the long football pass thrown in desperation for touchdown glory.

And to help us unpack the science behind the miracles, we'll be joined by our friend Eric Goff, physics professor at Lynchburg College, Virginia, and the author of Gold Medal Physics. But first, we have a little something special for you. Yes. As you know, yes, we begin the show, and we like to begin the show with a play that demonstrates the topic of the day.

And for today, we've chosen one of the most iconic Hail Mary passes in college football history the miracle at Michigan all the way back in 1994 but before we go to that clip let's welcome our first guest who is calling in today a man who owns 38 rushing NFL touchdown and whose arm gave us the miracle of Michigan. Yes. Go on, Chuck. Do it. None other than the one, the only, Cordell Stewart, former Pittsburgh Steelers and Chicago Bears quarterback.

And, of course, the star of the mystical at Michigan and a guy known as Slash without the big top hat and all the crazy hair. Cordell, what's up? What's going on, Jens? How we doing? We're good. How are you, sir? I'm just out here getting a little exercise in as I talk to you great young men on this beautiful Saturday morning.

Just trying to keep it nice and loose so that as we talk about this great play in Michigan. There you go, my friend. I have enough energy to give it to you. Yes. All right. It's good to see that you're still excited about it because it's funny, a lot of people can say like, oh, that's one of the greatest plays of all time or oh, that was really one of the most exciting plays. You actually

can say that and it's true. Yeah, I agree with you 110%. There's many Hail Mary passes that we've watched. LSU, Kentucky, tip ball, kid catches it and runs it for about 20 yards or so in the end zone. Doug Flutie, his against Boston College, his against the Miami Hurricanes. I think it was the Hurricanes were number one in the country. They knocked them off off of that one play. Okay, I acknowledge Cordell.

Yeah, you see, you're a historian too. And truthfully, that play was only, the ball was only thrown like maybe, let's say, what, 55 to 60 yards. Mine was actually

74 yards in the air. They like to go from the line of scrimmage. I go from the place in which the ball was released. And it was done in the big house. What other place

can you do it? There you go. And quite that many people in one place. It was pretty done in a big house. What other place can you do it? There you go. And quite that many people in one place. It was pretty remarkable, I must say. Well, we have talked about it. So why don't we go ahead and take a listen. And for those of us with us via video, watch the actual play. Here it is via Cordell Stewart, the miracle at Michigan. One more. Six seconds. I think he just went over and said, just throw it up.

The last pass is complete to Michael Witt. So who we got here? So right now what we're doing is looking at the pre-play. Big and strong and can run. A lot of tension building on the sidelines.

Probably Blake Anderson. A lot of tension building on the sidelines. So we have four wide receivers on the field. Three wide receivers set. Six seconds on the clock. Fourth quarter. Here it is. Cordell's back to pass. Scrambles a little bit. Launches the ball.

He's got three people down there. The ball's up in the air. Caught. Touchdown. Wow. Caught by Westbrook. Caught. Touchdown.

And then Cordell breaks about a 70-meter sprint record to get into the end zone. Look at him, man. Wow. And I love the camera work here. There is the juxtaposition of Cordell running down the field with great joy, like you say, just sprinting. And every one of the Buffaloes just jumping on top of each other.

And then they keep cutting back to Michigan. And the look on the players' faces. Amazing blues being cut down. Yes. Oh, baby. There were some disconsolate faces. Okay, Cordell, quite simply, you and Colorado tried that same play at the end of the first half.

Am I right? Yes, you are. We tried to... I mean, this was a game that was... We had tons of evidence flows, and statistically, our numbers were great. But on the board, we wasn't really doing much, especially in the first half. Everything we were doing, we were pretty much stepping ourselves in the foot.

And, you know, it came down to a play that we needed to try. And I ended up throwing an exception off of that one play. But we tried to give a valid effort to get us in position to have some good energy going in the half. Okay, so if we go back to that team, it's not just a future Pro Bowl quarterback. You have a future Heisman Trophy winning running back blocking for you, and the guy who eventually catches it in the end zone, Michael Westbrook, is going on to be an NFL wide receiver and actually becomes a world champion mixed martial arts.

By the way, is it no wonder you won? Yeah. If you want to throw all that inside of it, I promise you, you can. I mean, we had Ray Caruth on the field. That's right, Ray Caruth. We had Brian Stoltenberg on the field, who was my center, who ended up, I think, going into England. We had Chris Neoli, who went to Jacksonville.

We had a multitude. We had Heath Irwin, who was my right guard, Tony Birdie, and Derek West. And as you mentioned, Rashawn Salam. I mean, it was a tremendous play for Rashawn on my left and also Tony Birdie to make that magnificent block. I mean, they just mauled the guy. If you could have gone to jail for doing some double-team, double-team with the guy, that was the play that you can actually go

to jail. And the best thing Michigan did, let's be realistic, the best thing they did was rush only three rushers. That was the best. That was the play of the day. Not so much what we did, because that's why you draw it up. That's why you practice it to complete that play.

But the most important part of it was they only brushed three guys. And so when I had an opportunity to get to the outside, and we would practice it maybe once a week in Colorado. And in Boulder, we're in higher altitude, so the ball actually travels maybe five to ten yards further. And so once we got in the game and it was all on the line, the referees couldn't call a flag. We could go back and look at it.

They could have called a flag a couple times up front, but they didn't call a flag. There's no flags. It's funny that you mention that because, you know, when you look at the YouTube video, you can tell who the Michigan fans are because they all say the same thing. Holding call, not called. Holding call, not called. Clearly holding, not called.

It's not called, dude. So now here's the thing, though. Here's the thing. And you being not only a part of that play but playing in the NFL, is it not true on a play like this at the end of any game, whether you're in college or the pros the ref the refs are going to let you guys play it like you like every every player on the field knows if i get held i'm not going to get a call so what i got to do is make sure that i am like i'm not

i'm going to like this guy's going down i'm going to bull rush the hell out of this guy because there's no way i'm going to get called for uh someone's going down. I'm going to bull rush the hell out of this guy because there's no way I'm going to get called for, someone's going to get called for holding. Is that true? Well, let's have a little transparency. Who in the heck thinks that someone would be able to throw the ball 70-plus yards to win the game? I mean, you see why 100-plus thousand people were in awe the entire time? Because they never thought it could happen.

I mean, we were the only people. You know what's the traditional way of thinking when on the road? Us against the world, right? Right. Yeah, of course. By the way, Cordell, by the way, that's my way of thinking for everything. Sorry. Go ahead.

That's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because that's the only way you succeed and be special. But we were special that day because of that mentality we had. But no one expected that play to be completed. No. Only we did. Only we did. And it's funny, but no one expected that play to be completed. No. Only we did. Only we did. And it's funny you say that you expected the play to be completed because when I look at

the fact that, so you would like, what, 74 yards, right? Because I've heard 60, I've heard 65, 70, and 73, and 74. Count it from where the pass started, not from the line of scrimmage. Okay. Exactly. So anytime you have, all right, there's unofficial and there are official numbers. Right. To me, because of the act, you have to go that that was the official

because the ball can't get completed from the line of scrimmage. It can't get completed from where the ball was released. So if it's released from the minus 26 yard line, my math teacher told me 74 plus 26 is 100. So it ends up landing, literally, if it lands on the ground, probably what? Inside the end zone? It is. It's just in the end zone.

So it's just inside the end zone. Rocket Left is the name of the play, correct? Yes, sir. Rocket Left. This is what's crazy. Hold up real quick. Left is the name of the play, correct? Yes, sir. Rocket Left. This is what's crazy. Hold up real quick. This is what's crazy. Tell me.

Before that play, we threw an in cut to Michael Westbrook. Right. Same formation, Rocket Left, Michael in cut. So we come up, throw the ball, I spike it. We only have, what, five, six seconds left on the clock? Yeah. I walk to the sideline like we're about to run another play like that. Ready to ask the coach, Coach, what are you thinking now?

He's like, what are you coming over here for? I can laugh. And that's when you see me walking to the sideline and walking back on the field like a big kid, like I was just, you know. So you're already playing mind games. You're already playing mind games at college. Yeah. Yeah, I was already doing it.

So every time I see Coach Neuheiser, we always start the conversation off, you know, that I told you we were going to win the game. And then we start talking about normal stuff and the kids and everything. Okay, let's go back to Rocket Left. It's a design play for a tip-off to be caught in the end zone, correct? It's a Hail Mary, yes. Rocket left is a Hail Mary play.

Rocket left or rocket right, depending on where the ball is on the hatch. I'm with you. So what kind of percentage of success are you thinking you have with a tip-off, knowing that basically everybody but three players for Michigan are back in the end zone waiting for you and your pass?

50-50 chance. It's 50-50. That good. Yeah, so all you do is have a chance, right? Right. And when you practice that, you practice the actual tip itself? Because every team practices tip drills all the time. So when you practice the Hail Mary, do you practice the actual tip itself as well?

No, we actually practice positioning of the players. Positioning. I got you. So if we go down, you notice Blake Anderson was in the front. Yes. We end up having Mike coming around the back side. Right. We had James Kidd and then Ray Caruth

came last minute. So we had everybody in somewhat of a circle once the ball was tipped. But this was crazy. The ball hit Ty Law first. Right, yep. When it comes down, it looked like Blake Anderson was there. He's a distraction.

But it hit Ty Law. Mike comes around as big as he is. Yes. He's on top of Ty Law. He catches the football. He scoops it up. All I see is an arm. All I see is an arm in the air from where I was.

Wow. And I saw Coach Mack and everybody on the sideline run on the field. I'm like, whoa. He caught it. Oh, my goodness. I couldn't get down there quick enough. So let me ask you. So here's two things.

One, you threw the ball accurately 74 yards. You didn't just throw a ball up. Okay. yards you didn't just throw a ball up okay so uh anderson's right there and the ball is coming down to hit your your receiver um yeah targeted pass it's a targeted pass at 74 does that when a scout is watching that on television or and he sees that does that up your stock when it comes time to like, hey, let's take a look at this guy? Yeah, yeah. I mean, most definitely. Here's the thing about the Hail Mary pass.

What's tough is, one, you hope the quarterback has the arm. One. Right. In our case, it was almost, for most, slim to none to get this ball down the field, right? Right. So what do you have? You have the LSU-Kentucky game where you just throw it up in the air. Guy catches, he runs the 20 yards in.

Right. You get the Doug Flutie where he's what? On a plus 45, maybe 50-yard line. Right. You can throw a 50-yard pass, right? But you're talking now from the minus 30-yard line? You maxed it out. Let's be fair, Cordell.

You've maxed this pass out. Yeah, exactly. And so in my case, my margin of error was much greater than the other guys because the other guys, they can throw it up as high as they want to give guys time because he's not really that far of a throw. Well, yeah. But I have to hold it a minute. Right.

And once I hold it, I literally have to throw it all I have. Cordell, you've just explained why we're talking to you, because this for us is the definitive. It comes up at number one from your point of view. Seriously, I mean, that's one of the reasons why we asked for you specifically, because this is without a doubt. You want to look at all the Hail Mary plays, this is the best for all these reasons that you just mentioned. One, the amount of field that you had to cover in the air with the ball and the fact that you accurately delivered a 74-yard pass, period. So let's just say, for instance, that Anderson, his defender, had tripped.

Like, this wasn't a Hail Mary, right? And he was just alone. But he would have caught that ball for a touchdown. But no, the ball, isn't the ball, the first contact on the ball is actually outside the end zone first? Yes, but what I'm saying is... Yeah, I mean, whoever hits the ball first,

wherever it hits high loft, if he catches the ball right there with his momentum moving forward, it would be a touchdown. It would have been a touchdown. That's what momentum moving forward, it would have been a touchdown. It would have been a touchdown. The only thing I knew how to do was throw it to a spot. Honestly, I was off

to the inside. That's why you see Michael coming in so hard because it was off a little bit to the inside to where it forced the momentum of the crowd to kind of fall inward a little bit so everyone was somewhat off balance okay cordell once you're sat there and not much of a pocket when there's only three guys rushing you um you've got to have something going tick tock tick tock upstairs and

you must know i have got x amount of fractions of seconds left. You've got this internal clock. You've got peripheral vision. You've got your pass rushes. You've got everything going on. You must know my arm's got to be back and ball gone in X amount of seconds. Do you actually have that internally? Is it something you naturally have or is it something that you can practice? Well, this is not a timing route right because

you're not you're not working off of a five-step drop hit and throw pop up hit the check down or if it's not their run this is a play where you need time so yeah you actually made that time you actually made that time because you got outside to make this throw yeah yeah what you what you guys what you guys are prefacing is basically pre-snap read to indicate how much time I have. My pre-snap read was they only had three rushers. We had six blockers. Okay. What you've done, you stretch time because you know that you've got to get outside

to give your receivers enough time to get far enough down the field. So what you do is you must already know. You must be already subconsciously programming your extra bit of space. You're dragging that space out. Is that the case when you're pre-snap and you see three rushers? What Gary's saying is, do you then change in your mind the internal clock? Like, you know what? If I get outside or if I move around or if I move the pocket,

I can actually stretch this play. Well, what you guys saw was I knew Rashawn was going to my left because of the tip left play. I knew he was going to my left. So I knew I had maybe the center, the left guard, left tackle, and Rashawn there to help protect me. So all I had to be aware of is the pressure coming from my right because I knew I was protected from my left.

So if my tackle on my right side was beat, that meant I would have to find more time. But I didn't want to go away from where the tip was going to be. I wanted to go to the side where the tip was. That's why Rashan

went that way because I needed maximum protection. So they slid everything over. Once they slid everything over... See, this is part

of the miracle. Every compartment, every bit of player mentality comes together to make it work. You know Rashan Salam is going to block left, so therefore you move with the protection. And then you get a guy at the other end who's going to maul anybody to get to the ball. And that's why we break these plays down like this, because, you know, there's so much more going on than what just appears to be happening on the field.

And so that's why we wanted to have you here and talk about the nuances of this. But I got to ask you a question. It's just from me personally. I just want to know. You know, when you sit there and you look like this past season and you see Aaron Rodgers throw a Hail Mary, and you know that he threw a Hail Mary for about 40 yards, or he threw a Hail Mary for about 47 yards.

Does your chest just swell up a little bit like, yeah, okay, good for you? You got your Packers height on again, haven't you? Yeah, you know, I mean, one, he did it twice in a season. Yes. Let's make sure. We did it twice in a season. He did it against Detroit, and he also did it against the Arizona Cardinals. Cardinals.

Right. Yep. And so when you see a guy do it twice, you know, it's like, wow. Okay. And the one he did in Detroit was almost touching the rafters and coming back down. So that was pretty good. Miracle of Motel. Yeah.

And so, you know, I was like, wonderful, but you know me, I'm being arrogant and a little pompous about it. I'm like, it wasn't as far as mine in Michigan.

Exactly. I'm like, yeah, good for you, Aaron, but that's no 74 yards. I'm just saying. Yeah,

that's no 74 yards. I'm just saying, bro. I love you, man, but great job. I mean, everybody loves it,

but mine was a little bit further. Thank you. Hey, Cordell, here's a question for you. If you were on the Michigan team, would you have allowed you to make that play? Well, I mean, again, I don't think anyone thought the ball can get that far other than our guys on our side wishing and praying. I mean, be realistic here. You've got three rushers.

You have Ty Law and all the other players, which is a total of eight players, technically, all the way on the other end of the field. I mean, if those other eight players outside of the three guys rushing wasn't all the way down on the other end, as if I was going to scramble or as if I was going to throw an in-cut, shame on them. I mean, that's horrible coaching.

Right. You tried to play at the end of the first half, so they must have known you had the arm. Well, the win at the first half wasn't as far. Right. It was nowhere near. I think the win at the first half was maybe 60 yards. Yeah, exactly.

Maybe 60. Right. It almost threw out of the back of the end zone. So it goes to show you I was a little too. You were a little hyped up. You were a little hyped up. Yeah. Hey, man, listen.

I was a little ticked off, too. I were a little hyped up. You were a little hyped up. Yeah. Hey, man, listen. I was a little ticked off, too. I know you have a son, right? Yep. Yeah, and are we going to see another NFL quarterback coming out of Cordell land? Or are you encouraging him to play? I'm just curious. Well, considering what he plays, he plays corner, tailback, and safety. Ah.

Ooh. You know what's funny? Go ahead. Yeah. I was saying it's funny. Sometimes you see, like, the children of or the sons of NFL players actually gravitate towards a different position than their dad. Is that because they don't want to be compared to their dad?

No. No, for me, that's how I started off. Technically, Little League, I started off playing nose guard and tailback. Oh, okay. Then when I got to middle school, I played cornerback, safety, and quarterback. Ah, okay. And then once I got to high school, I was a free safety, and I was the quarterback. Gotcha.

And then I got on the basketball team, and my football head coach gave me an ultimatum of, do you want to play basketball or do you want to play football? He saw I had the strongest arm amongst all the guys on the field. Just by messing around, before you know it, I became a quarterback on the football team, and boom, here we are. But my son, you know, with the game changing the way it has now, quarterbacks, whether it be because of their mobility, because of their speed or what have you, and their strong arms, are allowed to play the game today. It's not all the, you know, we need to change their positions thing anymore. I mean, Terrell Pryor may be the only quarterback, the guy that came in the league as a quarterback that changed his position and fully is playing wide receiver now with the Washington Redskins.

playing wide receiver now with the Washington Redskins. But if my son wants to play quarterback with how I think now the coaches are having a chance to coach this style and he's starting to understand it a little bit more, you know, if he wants to play it, I'm all in. I mean, that's even better for his resume because daddy get it. But he's natural at corner, at right corner. He's natural at free safety. He has good speed. And at tailback, he's just a natural athlete.

And he does have good hands, too. So he's just a natural at free safety. He has good speed. And at tailback, he's just a natural athlete. And he does have good hands, too. So he's just a natural athlete. Okay, so there's no surprise Cordell Stewart's son is a multitasking football player. Oh, yeah. Just like Dad was. I mean, you were known as one of the best utilitarian quarterbacks in the game. I mean. Slash 2.0.

Slash 2.0. Yeah, slash 2.0. Whoa, whoa, hey, hey, hey, step up. You quarterback, wide receiver, and were you not emergency punt on special teams? in the game. I mean... Slash 2.0. Slash 2.0. Yeah, slash 2.0. Whoa, whoa, hey, hey, hey, step up. You quarterback, wide receiver, and were you not emergency punt on special teams?

I even had a chance to go to Baltimore and play against the Jets and end up having AFC Player of the Week. There you go. Because our punter got hurt and I ended up, you know,

did a good job against the Jets punting the football and did it once in Pittsburgh. So, yeah. All right. Hey, man, that's all good stuff. Cordell, were you the future

back in 1994? Were you the vision of things to come? Oh, yeah. I won't let you, listen, Cordell, I'm not going to let you answer that because here's the deal. I know right now you're struggling with how do I say yes to this question. No, no, no, no.

In terms of being able to do so many different things. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. But the fact is, that's undoubtedly, undoubtedly, no. I'll say this. You were one of the first quarterbacks. All right, let's let Kodak say go. Go ahead. I'll say this.

I'll say this. Go ahead. This was in this fashion, probably the first time from playing quarterback and playing wide receiver, the first time it was quarterback and playing wide receiver, the first time it was introduced to the National Football League on this level. I'll say that. All right, that was very humble. Thank you.

Like I said, Cordell, I'm going to answer it for you. The answer is yes. Yes, I was the future. And if you want to know I was the future, all you got to do is look at the way quarterbacks are now, and I'm talking everybody who comes into the game. The first thing they look at, it used to be they thought that mobility was some kind of detriment. You know, Cordell opened the door.

Yeah, they used to look at mobility as a detriment. Like, oh, well, you know, this guy, you know, he's got happy feet, they used to say. And, oh, you know, this guy's always moving the pocket. Now you listen to these same analysts. You listen to the same coaches. The smart guys. Exactly. They're so smart right now.

Oh, my God. They're geniuses, aren't they? Right. Geez, Louise. Exactly. So that's fantastic. Hey, man. Yeah.

Thanks so much. Guys, it was awesome. Oh, man. Pleasure was ours. Talking about that place. Thank you for sharing. Talking about that place. Good time. No problem. Hey, man. Please come back and. Always happy to talk about that place. Thank you for sharing. Always happy to talk about that place. Good time.

No problem. Hey, man, please come back and talk to us about more things football. Okay, my friend? Yep. Will do. Will do. Thank you all. All right, buddy.

Take care. Pleasure was ours. Thank you, Cordell. Right. That's Cordell Stewart. What a great bit of insight into the miracle of Michigan. We're going to take a break. Oh, yes.

About time for that. We'll come back and we will break down the physics behind the miracle of Michigan. We're going to take a break. Oh yes, about time for that. We'll come back and we will break down the physics behind the Miracle of Michigan and to find out what it takes to get your Hail Marys answered here on Playing With Science. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. And today we're looking into the art and science of the Hail Mary Pass in football. And joining us now by video call is Eric Goff, Professor of Physics at Lynchburg College, author of Gold Medal Physics, The Science of Sports, and a whole lot of other things. Eric, welcome to the show. How are you, sir? I'm doing great. How are you? We're fabulous. So, Eric, Cordell says, and you know what, I'm not in a place to argue with him,

that that pass is 70 yards plus because from his point of view, he's thinking it's from where the ball is released, not from the line of scrimmage. So how far do you calculate, as a physicist, this actually is in terms of a pass? He's absolutely correct. He let go of the ball at about his own 27-yard line, and it probably got to about the two-yard line of Michigan. So we're looking at about 71 yards. Wow. That's amazing.

How fast do we anticipate that is traveling? So he's going to let go of it at close to 60 miles an hour wow speeding fine at 60 miles an hour that's pretty impressive that's very impressive it's uh if you're going to throw a ball about 80 yards is a pretty long throw in practice you're going to get up to about 65, 66 miles an hour. So he's getting near the max of what he could do. So as he said, rather than aim at one individual, he's aiming for an area. It's a small area. So how, in terms of forces and what's in play from the physics, how does he manage to be able to be that accurate over that distance? Yeah, because the ball lands exactly where it's supposed to, you know, it's like really a

tremendously accurate pass. So what has to happen in order to get that type of accuracy? Well, he's probably at the limit of what he could throw. So he was probably just heaving it as hard as he could. And he's going to hit, I mean, he was still a yard or two short of the goal line, which is still optimized for that play because he got a nice tip to Westbrook. But the thing is, he's got to put a great spiral on it. So we're looking at about a 600 RPM spiral coming out of his hand. And that's going to help the stability of the ball. And I'm sure he's practiced that throw many, many times before that game. So obviously, that's going to play a large role in the accuracy of the throw. It's the last six seconds of the game. They don't get a touchdown. They go home with the tail between their legs. If Cordell Stewart just says,

I've got, I've had my tin of spinach, I'm going to bring it all to bear, he loses control. So you said he's probably given it everything, but he still has to have an element of control. Have we got a Hail Mary equation of some kind, an algorithm, an equation that we can bring to bear on a situation in terms of distance and time, et cetera? Well, once he lets go of the ball, the only thing acting on the ball is the earth's gravity and air resistance. So that's unlike any, you know, it's just like every other pass that's thrown in football. So once the ball's out of his hand, it's just up to the air and the earth to figure out where it's going to go.

If the ball gets thrown high enough, do we have any other effects in terms of the rotation of the earth and we get carried away with ourselves here? Is that going to impact upon a pass? It will by a couple of inches, but the main thing is going to be the air. Flutie's famous Hail Mary had a pretty strong headwind I don't know quite what the weather conditions were like for that pass in the big house but if you've got a swirling wind as you get these passes typically go about 20 yards off the turf as their maximum height so once you get up to that height if you get any little swirling wind then that's going to affect the path of the ball as well. And so when you look at trajectory, if you throw the ball higher, doesn't it go a shorter distance or wouldn't you have to put more force behind it in order to get it to go the same distance? Well, that's right. And it's the same strategy for a punter. I mean, if you kick it too low,

too low an angle, then you're going to outkick your coverage. So you want to get a lot of hang time, you kick it straight up or at a very large angle, but then you don't get a lot of distance. So you have to kind of optimize between those two effects. So Stewart's throwing that ball close to 45 degrees. It's a little bit higher angle than that, but it's somewhere around you know 45 degrees and that's that's the optimum angle right isn't 45 degrees like the optimum angle for a distance uh it would be without air resistance but with air resistance it's actually a little bit bigger than that okay okay and again it depends on the wind as well. Okay. Cordell was talking about the probability being around about, in his

mind, actually 50-50 of success and failure. Would you say a play like the Miracle of Michigan actually had a greater possibility of failing? Or is he about right? Well, when he's scrambling, I mean, he's almost caught at one point, isn't he? Yes. Yeah. So he's got to use a lot of athleticism just to get free to throw the ball. He's got to allow enough time to pass for his receivers just to get close to the goal line. And then he's got to be able to make that throw and it's going to be in a crowd. So once it's tipped up in the air, I mean, it's anybody's guess who's going to catch it. I'll tell you what, that means a lot of confidence in your blocking and a lot of confidence in your own athletic ability, let alone your arm.

The cool thing is he said, I saw they had three blockers. I knew we had six. I think six beats three pretty much every time. 50-50 became 100, didn't it? Very, very quickly. All right. 100, didn't he? Very, very quickly. All right. There's another real college icon when it comes to Hail Marys and something that you've written about yourself, Professor. The Miracle in Miami, Doug Flutie. The Hail Flutie. Yeah. The Hail Flutie. Let's go with that. So he's someone who bounced in and out of NFL, but really came to the fore.

Boston College, is that correct? That's right. So this is the day after Thanksgiving in 1984. Wow. It was a rescheduled game. So CBS really had this one pegged as far as immortality goes. And, you know, they're behind uh defending national champs miami they're in the orange bowl uh you got swirling winds storms brewing uh headwind before the throw

he's going to launch that thing a little bit over 60 miles an hour a little less angle than cordell stewart he got some help from the headwind, kind of like a sail going up, but it was quite a, just an amazing pass to Phelan. All right. Now that you've set that up. Oh, by the way, Eric, you could be sat here. Let's do it. Yeah. We might as well take a look at it. Three wide receivers out to the right. Flutie's back. He's scrambling around. Flutie's back. He's scrambling around.

She's marching. Caught by Boston College. I don't believe it. It's a touchdown. The Eagles win it. Unbelievable. I don't believe it. Phelan is at the bottom of that pile. Here comes the Boston College team.

He threw it into the end zone. Wow, that's unbridled joy. That's a dog pile in the end zone. It's a bench clearer. Everybody's in there. That's amazing. I have to tell you, there's nothing better than seeing

the joy of a game-winning play like that. And, you know, I guess you do it because you expect, look, this is where it is. And so you never do anything expecting to lose. But I would assume that the Hail Mary is an extremely, I would say, improbable play. If you were to look at everyone that's ever been done over the history of the sport of football, what would you say the percentage of success would be?

Oh, I don't know what the percentage is. I haven't looked at all the failed and made Hail Marys, but you got to also imagine that you're even going to have a Hail Mary in the first place. I mean, you have to be somewhere around midfield. You got to have, you know, be within a touchdown of either tying or going ahead. So, I mean, you have to have the optimization right at the end of a half or end of the game for even a Hail Mary to take place. I mean, Eli Manning had one back in 2012 that ended the first half of a division game against the Packers. So you just have to be at the right place at the right time in the game

for that to even take place. Gotcha. You wrote about this particular play and the Hail Flutey and everything that surrounded it. Why did it stand out for you with such importance? For me, so I'm 14 years old watching this. Like I said, it's the day after Thanksgiving. And, you know, we're talking about 1984, so we don't have cell phones. We can't have access to every single game that's on in the college football lineup.

We had these things that people don't understand called Game of the Week. So you get this one game perhaps on one network that you can watch. And that was it. You know, we're all sitting around watching this thing on television and, you know, jumping up and down when it happened. It was an exciting play. What's interesting for me

is if you look at Doug Flutie's 5'10". That's right. Which is, in the politest way, if you're a quarterback now, that's vertically challenged. Short little man. No, we'll go with vertically challenged. It's a short little man.

He's 5'10", if he's worrying, please. I was going to say a short little man he's 5'10 if he's worrying please i was going to say and he's not even 5'10 the fact that that's that's got to change the angle at which he throws surely to get because he's he's in the land of giants he's got a whole lot of pass rushes he's got an offensive line in front of him i mean if he's just pitching it out like that he's going to hit someone in the back of the helmet. It's not going to change his angle too much, but keep in mind the opposing quarterback that day was six foot five, Bernie Kosar. Wow.

I mean, this, this really is a David Goliath moment. I mean, you got this diminutive quarterback, maybe five, nine, uh,

uh, with cleats and, uh, yeah, he's, he's hauling this thing from a much shorter distance, uh, above the ground.

Uh, it's just going to have to throw it a little bit harder than Cozart would have, although Cozart was slightly sidearm, so that would have dropped his release height as well. Known for basically being kind of like a sidearm passer, Bernie was. That's right. Okay, Eric, I don't know, maybe I've got this wrong, but at Boston College, just prior to this particular game,

was his quarterback coach not Tom Coughlin? That I don't know. And don't they have a tie-in with the Chargers in San Diego where Flutie ends up later on in his career? That would make sense. This whole thing seems, this is what I find with these Hail Mary plays. They all weave themselves together. You look at the miracle in Michigan where- Harry has just created a Hail Mary conspiracy. I love it. That's why I'm here, just stirring it around, just stirring it around.

You've got a Heisman winning running back blocking for a future pro bowl. You've got another guy and this whole stellar team. And then all of a sudden you've got this little quarterback, turns out his quarterback coach in the previous couple of years was his future coach. So this whole stuff is intertwined. I'm going to be quiet now. It makes sense. No, no, man. That makes sense.

I mean, but, you know, when you coach a player and you like what he does, you know, you're more inclined to have that player on your roster once you become a head coach in the NFL. You're more inclined to have that player on your roster once you become a head coach in the NFL. But I really think that Doug Flutie's – the only problem with Doug Flutie was the fact that he was very short, to be honest. It's hard to survey the field when you're that short. Yeah, I think that was his biggest problem. He went on to be a proud bowler. He went to be a – yeah, but the fact is I don't think he ever lived up to the potential that he could have had in the NFL. And I really do think it's a matter of size. And when you think about quarterbacks today, they're all six feet something.

You know, think about all the guys that are coming out of drafts right now. You don't have any small. Right now, I think the smallest guy is what, Drew Brees? Like, how many guys are smaller than Drew Brees? Aaron Rodgers is six foot two. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, yeah. All right, cool.

Don't forget that Flutie was the first quarterback to go over 10,000 yards in college, and he picked up a little trophy a few weeks after that play called the Heisman. He did, the Heisman, yeah. Okay, so did this miracle in Miami, do you think, affect, or was the voting already done for the Heisman? From what I've read, the voting had already taken place.

He beat Keith Byers by a pretty good margin anyway from what he'd already done. I remember Keith Byers because he ended up going to the Philadelphia Eagles. Oh, yeah. That looks like a good move from your point of view. Well, no, I would have rather had Doug Flutie. Believe

you me. All right. We got to take a break. We are going to take a break. Eric, please stay with us. When we come back, we'll put a few more Hail Marys under the microscope with our good Professor Eric Goff. So please do not go away.

Okay, we're back here on Playing With Science. And we are looking still at the science of the Hail Mary pass in football. And joining us via video call, we have Professor Eric Goff of Lynchburg College and author of Gold Medal Physics, a book we highly recommend that you go and check it out. Okay, Eric, your best ever Hail Mary. Okay, we're going to do this.

All right, I'll reinvent this. The Holy Trinity of Hail Marys. Give us your're going to do this. All right. I'll reinvent this. The Holy Trinity of Hail Mary's. Give us your one, two, and three, please. Well, Flutie's probably my favorite just because of, you know, my age when it happened, but I got to say the, the Aaron Rodgers throw, um, back in January of 2016 against Arizona, that was, uh, that was one for the ages. Um, I mean, he gets the ball out of the shotgun. He's going to be releasing this ball. I think it was about a 61 yard, uh, horizontal travel for that ball. And I had done a calculation. I mean, he he's releasing

this thing about 56, 57 miles an hour, um, about 47 degrees above the horizontal. And it did go about 20 yards up in the air at its maximum height. So, I mean, it was a nice, beautiful pass. Air drags about 22% of the weight of the ball when he lets go of it. I mean, this was just a perfect spiral, perfect pass. I mean, this was just a perfect spiral, perfect pass. Yeah, man. Some Motown. Yeah, I got to tell you, man, that the way you just described it, I think we should just actually take a listen. Aaron Rodgers has played with science.

Yeah, Aaron Rodgers right now just called in and said, hey, thanks, Eric. That was great. Why don't we take a listen and a look? Some Motown in the show. That's right. Can the receivers get far enough down the field? Rodgers.

Whoa, scrambling like crazy. He's buying time. Look at him. Look at him. Whoa! The ball's gone out of shot. In the end zone. It is caught for the win.

It's Richard Rodgers, right? Aaron Rodgers. Because I remember Aaron Rodgers and Richard Rodgers. Rodgers throws to Rodgers. Rodgers throws. Rodgers, right? Aaron Rodgers, because I remember Aaron Rodgers and Richard Rodgers. Rodgers throws to Rodgers, Rodgers throws, Rodgers catch. Yo, that is amazing. That's awesome. Now, here's what I love. The ball, now you know the NFL.

We're talking the NFL. These are the best cameramen in the game, period. The ball goes out of frame. It goes out of shot because he's pitched it. He's thrown it so high as he possibly thrown it right up into the rafters to give him eric yes to give his receivers time he's he's playing with enough time he's bought enough time in the pocket and coming out and scrambling and then you see him slow down and slow down because he can see his receivers

aren't in position yet and he buys him even more time with the arc of his part amazing amazing how intuitive and to throw it that far he's going to need to throw it a little bit more than 45 degrees so anyway so uh the flight time of these things might be three or four seconds so he's definitely going to have to give his players you know maybe five seconds to get down the down the field yeah and the thing about this is he did this twice in the same season. Just showing off. Yeah. So he actually did it with the Arizona Cardinals as well, or against the Arizona Cardinals as well. So just, you know,

and, and on top of that, you know, I believe at the time he was still dating Olivia Nunn. So Munn. So, okay. So your jealousy has just kicked in again. Right now, here's what I've just discovered. I hate Aaron Rodgers. Okay, there you have it. I'd like to think, because I'm obviously in a mindset where I like a conspiracy theory,

but he's actually picked out Richard Rodgers because he just wants the record books to say, and Rodgers throws, Rodgers catches. Yeah, which makes it look like record books to say, and Rogers throws, Rogers catches. Yeah, which makes it look like he threw the ball, ran downfield, got into the end zone, and caught his own touchdown. I'm that good. I'm that good. First base, Bucks Bunny.

Second base, Bucks Bunny. Third base, Bucks Bunny. So, yeah, that's very cool, man. And those dreaded laws of physics are keeping him from doing that. Hey, any parting thoughts for us, Eric, when it comes to the Hail Mary, what it is from a physics standpoint that makes it such a great play in football for you? Well, to me, the athleticism of the quarterback to be able to give the receivers enough time to get down the field. I mean, that play with Rodgers when he was throwing the Hail Mary against Arizona,

he took just over four seconds to release his pass after the snap. He's got to be able to survive in that pocket and scramble out of the pocket for about four seconds just to give his receivers time to get down the field. So there's a lot going on in that quarterback's mind before that ball even leaves the hand. How many calculations do you think a quarterback is making from snap to release? Well, I've heard quarterbacks have an internal clock and, you know, for normal type plays, they know they have to get the ball out at a certain amount of time before they get blindsided by the rush. It's a little under three seconds.

Yeah, and they have to have been able to practice these Hail Mary throws. So they're going to have to recalibrate their internal clock for a longer throw like that. So they've got to be able to both visualize where the receivers are and then have a sense of what's uh rushing up behind them right that's incredible answer that's that's amazing that's amazing hey uh eric once again man thanks so much for uh being with us you're always such a wonderful addition to the show thanks so much you shed a lot of light onto that thank you but you're welcome so chuck yeah man i mean we've talked about the the athleticism of of NFL players and college players, but then you're looking at the mental aptitude of a quarterback,

not just to have the arm to throw, but to have the all-round composure, the presence of mind, the athleticism to be able to just stretch time. And this is why I think once, as the professor did, sort of opens up the book and shows you exactly what goes on behind it and the mechanics, it makes it even more miraculous. And you know what I love most about the Hail Mary is like Eric just said, the athleticism of the quarterback. What I love most about it is the fact that it is equal parts execution of a practice play and improvisation because no Hail Mary play is going to be executed the way you practiced it because there's always got to be

some scrambling. There's another team on the field. Right. There's another team on the field. Right. And these guys are trying to kill you. And so they don't do that in practice. Right. So I love the fact that in order for it to happen, it's all these things have to come together. But it's this play that you've definitely practiced, but you never know how it's going to go. And you can actually see the guys creating the play on the field as it's going down. So it's just it's one of the most exciting plays that you'll ever see in any sport. So I'm really happy that we took the time to talk about it.

Yeah, we are. All right, that's it for today. Yeah. I'm Gary O'Reilly. I'm Chuck Nice. And this most certainly has been Playing With Science. See you all soon. Welcome back.

Yes, and thank you for sticking with us. This is our extended version of the Art of the Hail Mary, where we answer some of your questions about physics and football with the help of our good friend, physics professor Eric Goff, author of Gold Medal Physics, which I must say is a must-buy these holiday seasons. So please go out and get your stockings stuffed. There you are. I said it. That's great. And of course, helping us,

none other than Eric or Professor Eric Goff himself. Eric, how are you? I love it. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you for the Holiday Book Club and good to see you, Chuck and Gary. Yeah, man. It's always good to see you. That's amazing. Go out and get your stockings stuffed. That is my new way of wishing people a Merry Christmas, a Happy Holidays. From now on, that is how I'm doing it. Hey, hey, go out and get your stockings stuffed, okay? You go ahead and do that. Let's jump into the questions, shall we?

Yeah, we've got people who want to know some things about this play. Feed their inquiring minds. Yeah, so this is James Thompson. Thompson. Oh, that Thompson? That would be a Thompson. That's an English Thompson, huh? Yeah, I know. It's our language. We play with it as we wish. Yeah, that's a weird thing. James Thompson.

And James wants to know this from Twitter. Doesn't a football's laces impede its aerodynamic integrity? Can't science create a laceless ball for better distance and accuracy? Over to you, Professor. And you would also have to change the way every kid learns to throw a football because that's integral to throwing the ball. But maybe that'll change too. So, Professor?

Yeah, I was just getting ready to say the grip is important with the laces. So if you take away the laces, you're going to have to learn to hold the ball in a new way. It turns out the laces actually do play a slight aerodynamic effect that people don't really think about too much. If you throw a nice tight spiral, there's really no reason for the nose of the ball to actually dip and follow the trajectory that it's following. If it doesn't actually have any torque on it, it should just maintain that nose all the way through its trajectory. But the laces actually help provide a little bit of a torque to bring the nose down on its flight. Sometimes this has been ascribed to the center pressure and the center gravity not being quite at the same spot, but the laces actually play a

significant role in getting the nose to turn. So that helps reduce the drag. That's fantastic. I mean, that's really fascinating. So what you're saying is when you launch the ball, that upward trajectory, the ball would just stay in that position. The ball itself would travel along the same arc, still spinning. It would just never, like a rocket ship, point downward like it's coming back to earth. Yeah. And if it's not maintaining a tight spiral nose forward position, then it's going to have even more air drag than what the laces removal would do. Absolutely.

So therefore, it wouldn't travel as far because you'd be meeting that much more resistance. So it's really counterintuitive. The laces actually help with the integrity of the aerodynamics. It also helps with distance and accuracy because of the way that the ball points. And gripping, yeah. I mean, I don't know how you play the game without the laces. Let me ask you this.

Let me ask you this. Afterwards, I'm going to play to one of your favorite themes, but go ahead. So what if you were to, instead of having laces, if you took the ball and you made little indentations where you could grip the ball now of course everybody's hand is different but let's say for all intents and purposes and suspending disbelief every single quarterback's hand is the exact same size how about that okay and uh you you you you slip them inside uh yes, my hands are very, very large.

And they slip. Donald Trump can't use this ball, right? All right. So you can fit the fingers in the indentation. What would those indentations do to the flight of the ball, if anything? Well, they're certainly going to add a little bit of mass asymmetry, but the thing is the laces actually add a little bit of mass on the side of the ball, which is what's helping provide that little bit of torque to turn the nose. So if you take away

the mass, it's a different aerodynamic problem then. So it's really about the laces themselves, the fact that they are, you know. That's right. they're impending on the wind as well so the you don't get the same effect with having little dimples on the ball like that okay cool all right so because we like to reinvent everything we touch yes all right a a laceless ball but we wait one side where the laces would have been to an equal value so as we still have the ability for torque right we're trying we're doing this as we go along by the way what would happen apart from the fact you've had so so much difficulty gripping the ball how how would it act how how if you could throw it what would be the outcome if you had nothing

whatsoever so if you waited at the same would you get the same outcome as a you could um you just want to make sure that when you're throwing it, your fingers are on that weighted side every time, or it's going to feel very different to you when you go to throw it. You've got to have something to distinguish where those weights are. You're right. It's like throwing a football on the smooth side instead of gripping the laces. If you've ever done that, you'll never want to do it again because it makes you look like the worst quarterback in history. You know what I mean? The ball doesn't go as history. You can't, you know what I mean?

The ball doesn't go as far. You can't throw it as well. So that's what you're saying. Okay. Okay. So James, quite simply, James, we are putting it this way. It's laces out and laces are in. Stay.

Let's move on. Go on. You're up. All right. So Matthew S. Michael at Mattsgiam says this, can you please describe the force and arc of a long pass, then compare with the receiver's ability to run under the pass? Okay.

Okay. So to go to this, I would go to page 44 of this great stocking stuffer right here. Oh, you mean that book that says gold medal physics? That's right. World famous stocking stuffer. Yes. And it would tell me that a good Hail Mary pass might be thrown at about 60 miles an hour. And if you convert that to feet per second, that's about 88 feet per second.

So what we can do is imagine the distance that you're going to hold the ball back and then how far forward you're going to need to throw before you release it. In other words, what distance you have to accelerate the ball. And on a really long pass like that, where the receiver is reaching way far back and coming forward, you can almost get a full two arm span. So let's say you accelerate that through six feet. So you're going to have to have about 20 times the weight of the ball to get that thing accelerated up to 60 miles an hour. The ball's about nine-tenths of a pound or something. So you're getting about 18 pounds of force you're going to have to put on that ball to launch it at about 60 miles an hour. And if you're shorter, like Doug Flutie, and you're not going to be able to go through that much distance, you're going to need something like

20 to 30 pounds almost to get that ball to 60 miles an hour. Okay. How about altitude? What if we can't, we have to take a big seven foot defensive lineman come straight into your line of fire you're going to have to launch it up up and over will that have another effect on this particular pass sure and the long passes you're going to want to throw somewhere close to 45 degrees anyway so you're going to have a pretty good uh angle on it when you let go of it so even a tall defensive lineman's going to have to get pretty close to to really get his good angle on it when you let go of it. So even a tall defensive lineman is going to have to get pretty close to really get his big paw on it. But the receivers are going to be running underneath of the pass. So they're going to try to time where that ball is going to come down with

when they reach the goal line or just inside the goal line for the reception. Imagine you're the quarterback and you're safe in your pocket. You're not under any pressure. And you know which wide receiver you want to hit. You will have to know if you're going to go for, say, a 60, 70-yard pass, when in his running, he is going to reach maximum speed. Because some get it in the first 20 yards. Some will then pick up over the course of 40, 50. You would have to know intimately each wide receiver's ability to hit maximum speed. Am I right?

Am I wrong here? Well, I think they're going to be throwing to a spot. So whenever they're practicing this in the pregame efforts, they're not going to be so precise on knowing each receiver's specific acceleration and top speed and all this. So they're going to throw to a spot and see if they can get the receiver to time his run to that spot. So the flood drill that was practiced for the Boston College, whenever they did this against Miami in the 84 Orange Bowl, I mean, they had three receivers back to try to get the ball tipped. And when Phelan caught the ball, he actually caught it behind the Miami secondary. So, you know, sometimes you can get the ball to the receiver in the air.

Sometimes you're just trying to put it up and get it tipped to a receiver who's nearby. Wow. There you go. Well, this was fun, man. We are actually out of time. I mean, what a great little extension. I'm glad we did this. And I'm glad we've got so many fabulous listeners who are prepared to engage with us and tease the brilliant answers out of the good professor. That's right. And I'm so glad we have the professor here because quite frankly, those guys would be SOL if we had to answer these questions. Oh, yes. Wouldn't they just? Right. Well, that's it. Science out of luck, right? Science out of luck. There you go.

Exactly. You are SOL, baby. Science out of luck. Hey, Professor, thanks for joining us. Yes, thank you so much. And thank you to everybody for listening. This has been Playing With Science. That's Chuck Nice. I'm Gary O'Reilly. We look forward to your company very, very soon.