StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI: Football: Crushing the Combine

Episode Date: May 18, 2017

Get the inside scoop on the NFL Scouting Combine! Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice learn what it takes to turn a hard-up college student into a multi-millionaire in 6 weeks. Guests: Trainer Pete Bommarito and NFL Media Analytics Expert Cynthia Frelund.Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:TuneIn: http://www.tunein.com/playingwithscienceApple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceGooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/ Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Dye. And this is Playing With Science. Today we take a long, hard look at what it takes to turn a hard-up college student into a multi-millionaire in the space of a few hours. Well, maybe a little longer than a few hours, but they do get to keep the money. And all they have to do is be really, really, really good at football. Oh, yeah, that's all. And they'll also have to be superhuman, strong,

ridiculously fast, super smart, and be able to cope with anything while beating the pass rush and ripping holes in an offensive line. And if they want to get the big bucks, which means that they're going to be drafted in the first couple of rounds, and they're rich, their family is rich, and they have more friends than they could ever remember. Well, to get combine ready, these college athletes are going to have to learn a whole new way of fit. And that means bringing in the science. From biomechanics to nutrition,

from physiology to psychology, and from explosive power to calmness under pressure. Yes, to be a would-be NFL pro bowler, it takes a whole lot of know-how and some serious, serious science. And to guide us through what it takes to crush the combine, we'll be bringing on the trainer extraordinaire Pete Barmerito, a man with AAA client list and the first round draft picks and NFL pro bowlers. To help us plot our course through the jungle of the NFL draft, we'll be joined by NFL analyst Cynthia Freeland. But that's for later.

So stick around. It's going to be well worth listening to them. All right, for now, let's bring in our first guest trainer, Pete Bommarito. Welcome to the show, Pete. Hey, thanks. Glad to be here, guys. And we're happy to have you. Yes, for sure. You're the founder of Bomarito Performance Systems, the top training company for all NFL veterans, rookies, and draft preparation process. Is that right? I'd like to think so, yes. All right, so we've got the right men. And man, you have worked with everybody. Your alumni includes

hundreds of draft picks, numerous number one rounders, number one overall picks, NFL Combine fastest man, Senior Bowl MVPs, All-Star Game MVPs, numerous Combine professional testing leaders. I mean, you've worked with everybody from Le'Veon Bell

to Jordan Reed, Elon Manning, Matt Stafford, Tony Romo, Odell Beckham Jr., Santonio Holmes. Our friend Santonio. Yes, our friend Santonio, who's been on this show and was extremely entertaining. The Gronk, Ezekiel Elliott. I mean, God, let me ask you this, and then we're going to get into just a couple clips from the combines and get your get your feedback but right do you know an elite athlete when you're working them out like can you look at it and go this guy has the special sauce yeah there's no question i mean obviously i think there's a fine line between a performance coach and a football skills coach uh position coach so i never try to map that

out and talk about you know this guy can play because it's not my thing my thing is not to analyze film and and talk about football intelligence football skills but in terms of pure athleticism there's no question and obviously you know uh when you see a really really elite athlete like an ezekiel elliott that you I mean, you just know he's going to be special. When enough people talk about the fact that he's intelligent enough, he can play and he's got multiple skills. And then I look at his athleticism, which it's just rare that with that combination of size, strength, power and speed, it's just very, very rare. You can identify something like that. You could tell he was special from day one. Let's get to some clips of what it takes.

Just to give people an example of the combines and want to get your feedback on some of this stuff. We took a couple of examples from the combines this year, the 2017. And then we could talk about with you like what it is that these guys are looking for, because the combines, in addition to the interviews where they talk to these guys and figure out what their temperament is, they're talking to these guys to figure out, to see, can this guy cut it in terms of being a premium athlete in one of the toughest games there is to play? So take a look. This is first Alvin Kamara and boosting his stock at the combines. Take a look here. at the Combines. Take a look here. One guy that gets lost, I guess,

in the Fournette-McCaffrey-Cook shuffle is Alvin Kamara. That's all lower body strength there. That's awesome. It's a vertical jump that he just did, 39 1⁄2 inches, his broad jump. And now here's his 40. He's taking off downs. Four and a half.

Four, five, 40. Four, five, three, 40. So when you look at a guy like this, what are you looking for? And how do you get a player who comes to you and wants to boost like what we just saw? He wants to increase explosiveness, wants to increase his speed, and I've seen a lot of guys talk about you and what you do to increase speed. So give us an idea of what happens when you look at somebody. How do you make a plan for them?

The most underrated and often overlooked aspect is the medical. I mean, I think people get the fact that they come out of a season that's brutal. It's very, very long. We're getting them the day after their last game sometimes. I mean, these guys are used to taking three, four weeks off and letting the body heal naturally, just getting the deep roots out, the blood flow back. We have to accelerate that. I mean, not only do we have the combine coming up, a lot of times we have the all-star game

that might be in two, three weeks after the day after we get them. Wow. So main thing we have to do is not do this groundbreaking speed program. is not do this groundbreaking speed program. We have to get them into our medical center, inside of our facility, and analyze every joint and every muscle that crosses each joint and look for joint integrity issues,

look at muscle asymmetries, look at instability, look at inflammation, look at scar tissue. There's a number of things that we have to look at. And that's the most important thing is get the joint integrity back, get the muscles contracting well, so we can even do what we do in terms of implementing a proper speed. That's a total engine dismantling. You've got it laid out in front of you. You know exactly how you want to rebuild it and you want to tune it and make it better. Can you?

Is it possible? Or sometimes you look at the guys and go, it ain't going to happen. Obviously, the biggest question is not if, it's when. I mean, the challenge we have is can we get it done by the combine, not their pro day. Is their pro day early? Is it a specialty case? We had five this year that were coming off surgeries they had in november surgeries i had in december before i even met them so we're known medically

we've got a great medical staff my uh my therapists are outstanding they're very very well known and respected throughout this league so they do a good job and we are definitely going to attract anybody that had an unfortunate injury came off a surgery and they have to get ready to go and we had a guy that came off a major knee injury that's the rehabilitation time assigned was seven months it promised he just doesn't have seven months right now we're never going to get him to run 100 but the fact that we got him to run 75 before the draft was huge because now the nfl just knows that he's on track it didn't't affect him. The surgery wasn't held. He's getting his speed back and he's had a schedule.

And even though that's not going to be everything that's publicized highly on the NFL combine on TV and everything, that type of thing to erase a medical red flag is a huge win. It's just not highly publicized. Okay, so if I bring you, there's no such thing as a 100% fit athlete. I understand that. If I bring you a fit athlete, but he's off the pace in terms of combine ready, how long would you expect him to be ready under your tutelage, under your guidance? I mean, our standard answer is always going to be six weeks,

but it's hard to make that determination. Wow, that quick, huh? We might get him for eight, but they's hard to make that determination. Wow. That quick, huh? We might get them for eight, but they're going to leave in week number eight to go to the combine. And they, a lot of times have the all-star game. So legitimately we have six full weeks that we have them. So we have tried to accelerate the process by adding more medical entities to accelerate the healing from the season and make the joint specific. So the main thing is that there's got to be overlap. Like I'm a performance coach, but I'm also a certified neuromuscular therapist.

And so a lot of my performance coaches, my physical therapist, my massage therapist, my chiropractors are trained in performance. There is a significant overlap where if I have a speed session planned, I don't just walk on the field. Each athlete has to go in the medical center, get assigned a therapist or multiple therapists, get joints aligned the way that I need. So my preparation and my speed and my plyometric program actually has some substance. That's true individualization. And then after the session, go back to the medical center and see if anything changed, reset the joint and then go to the weight room. Then go back and then reset the joint, go back out to the field, do your position work. I mean, we might have them trained three times a day. We might have them in the medical center six to eight times a day. If you have a true individualized program, it can't be this body type or this

position. It has to be, well, this joint is compromised. Let's identify how much we can change that compromise of that joint give it performance coach performance coach has to be trained medically to read the report and implement the proper program uh and changes how big is recovery how big is recovery for your athletes in this six week to maybe eight week process and what sort of techniques are you using found to be really, really effective? Well, recovery, I mean, the best thing I think of recovery is getting a therapist and knows what

they're doing at a table. It might not be the coolest sell in terms of a table and a person, but that is the best thing. I mean, if you have a muscle contraction issue, you go to an MAT therapist. If you have significant scar tissue, you have to go to an ART therapist. If you have... Pete, excuse me. Just can you tell me what an MRT and an ART therapist might be? Because I don't know. Okay. MAT therapist is muscle activation techniques. Yep. In simple terms, their job is to get muscles to contract well neurologically. If you can contract a muscle well, then you can load that

muscle with a speed drill or in the weight room. But if you just load the muscle and it's not contracting neurologically, you're never going to get the maximum benefit. So they identify what's not contracting well and reset that muscle neurologically. Then they get a report of what they treated. I alter the speed drill to directly attack the tissue that they treated. That is truly how you individualize a plyometric, a speed, or a weighting program. Wow. I got to tell you, Pete. That's incredible. You seem like a really intense guy, man.

I'm serious. You're like really into this stuff. What could you do for a guy like me? Wish you good luck. By the way, I just did a thing where I found out that for a guy my age, I'm a superior athlete. How would you increase my performance, Pete? The exact same way. You know, what I look at a person that's not going to the NFL, their sport might be playing recreational basketball. Their sport might be, well, I enjoy running. Their sport might be, I want to walk up and down stairs without pain.

We have a significant business for people that are not playing competitive sports that just want to do an activity, but they no longer can because they're in pain. Suppose that activity is lying in a hammock and drinking alcohol. I'm not sure if I have a program for that. Cool. So the thing is, we've talked about the physical aspect of development of an athlete to get them into the peak condition. But to take a college athlete to a combine, you're going to need mental strength. You're going to need the psychology. You're going to need to be able to cope with a whole lot of different things that are going on.

Are you able to prepare athletes in those areas as well? There's no question. I mean, to do some type of the advanced neuromuscular therapy that I'm talking about, that in itself takes a lot of mental discipline. More than anything, doing all of these advanced techniques they've never been exposed to before is going to reset the joint fast. But there's an entire teaching phase and a mental preparation of how to isolate a joint motion, how to have a test be true by not cheating the test and compensating for the test. That takes a lot of the most mental training we do is within the neuromuscular therapy sessions. It's very, very difficult. I'd say that's the one thing that we do that sets us apart is

we understand that there's a learning curve to that and there's a very short amount of time. I'm not going to shy away from it, though. It's medically appropriate. We're going to do it. So that's the biggest thing. The other thing is just changing the mentality. They're used to playing in front of 50, 60,000 people with 10 of the guys in the field. Now they're going to go on onto a platform where you can hear a pin drop and they're by themselves. Right. Even if they have a track background, it's just been a while since they've done stuff like that. Yeah.

And believe it or not, we have to run mock combines to simulate that exactly because we see well-prepared athletes crash at these mock combines because they just mentally blow it. Wow. All these elite athletes who just love working with you. I mean, they love it. I mean, they love it. What are you doing to these guys when you get them inside of your facility where they're just like, yeah, man, this is it. Like, if you don't know, you better get the video.

Like, that's how these guys talk about you. I mean, that's the end product. It's not as easy as that as we're going through it. Believe me, there's a lot of arguing and fighting and yelling. And this is a strength coaching facility. So it's not as pretty as it looks on the video. Unfortunately, there's a lot of building blocks and there's a lot of back and forth. The bottom line is this. You know, we do have a good reputation.

We have a lot of people that swear by some success in these. We're very blessed. We're very fortunate. So when we get these younger guys coming out, we do hear that a lot. Like you mentioned Le'Veon Bell. I can't tell you how many times I've heard me put me on the levy on bell program whatever he does i want to do i mean it's it definitely kind of sells itself but at the same time i think when people stop feeling pain that they felt for years because we're making the training appropriate that is

the biggest sell and that's why i can say hey can you do me a favor then? Could you make one of those programs for emotional pain? Because I'm... I got to tell you, man. No, I'm joking. Pete, can you stick around? Because we got to take a little break. We have. But we want to get back and we want to talk about nutrition and some other things and get your insight on some other issues as well. Is that okay? Yeah, no problem. All right.

All right. We'll take that short break. Pete Bomarito, the man who gets results, will be with us still. Stick around. This is Playing With Science, and we'll be back shortly. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice.

This is Playing With Science. And today we're talking about the NFL Scouting Combine. And with us via video call, we have trainer extraordinaire Pete Bomarito, creator of Bomarito Performance Systems, the top training company for all NFL veterans, rookies, and drafts. And basically guys like Chuck and us as well, if you want to roll up. Absolutely. And speaking of which, and I know you work with Major League Baseball players, basketball players.

Are there any other sports where guys come to you and you work with? I mean, every sport. Our main business model is for middle school. And obviously, yeah, I mean, we get the publicity from the pro athletes. But if you look at the demographics, you know, 50% of all middle school kids play sports. So there's just a lot more. And we're in a very good demographic area and we get volleyball, lacrosse, swimming. We do it all.

You know, we're very proud of that. Yeah. Good for you. Focus as kids. That's fantastic. Let's take it to, I want to call it game day, but it's not. Combined day. Fantastic.

Let's take it to, I want to call it game day, but it's not. Combined day, over a period of four days, you will have position specific days. But rolling up to that, do you just let the athlete go out and do their thing? Or is there a whole sort of backup process around Combined Institute that you provide? Or is it something different? Yeah, how would you help me get to not me? Because we know we're not talking about me. I am a top level college prospect, okay? I'm going to the combines.

I come to Pete and I say, look, I want to increase some speed. I want to increase my performance. And I got to tell you, I got some problems when it comes to, I don't know, being tested. I really don't like it. It kind of screws with my head, man.

So, Pete, what do you do for me? As I said, it's just practice. I think we have got the technique down in terms of the position of the 40-yard start, the acceleration transition, the absolute speed zone, all that stuff. I mean mean we definitely have the mechanisms to train it and when they're in a controlled environment and they're being coached that is easy for us to get somebody to do what we want now the key is is strategically placing these mock combines where you are going to pretend you are the nfl when we're on a mock combine we put it on a different field. Nobody's allowed to speak.

Our staff's not allowed to coach them. We take them through a brief form-up. We basically pretend we're the NFL, get them out of their comfort zone. And believe me, the more you practice stuff like that, the better off they are on game day because psychologically you're right. It's easy to get somebody to do it if I'm sitting right there and putting their joints in the position. It's easy to get somebody to do it if I'm sitting right there and putting their joints in the position. But can they go through the mental imagery to replicate that when I'm not standing there, especially in a quiet environment? And I know it's a simple answer.

You just have to practice it. No, man, that's a great answer. I mean, to be honest. And I actually like that answer because that's the answer for so many things that a lot of people don't understand is it's actually being in the situation, placing yourself in the situation and being so comfortable with it. It becomes second nature. So it's difficult because I know a lot of trainers, what they want to do is make the athlete feel good and be confident. So they're going to do everything they can when they do a test to make sure that they're running good times. And unfortunately, that's easier to do from a psychological standpoint, but you're putting the athlete at a disservice. You've got to make them uncomfortable. Sometimes they are going to run a poor time. It's up to you just

to make sure you have a good relationship with that athlete so he doesn't jump off a cliff and quit and complain to his agent. And you get that a lot, unfortunately. So sometimes you've got to put them in an adverse situation. And if they don't explain to them why videotape it and reset it again the unfortunate part is you have such a short amount of time it's hard to develop a trusting relationship with these guys so god forbid they run a poor time in week four they might jump off a cliff and want to quit and change programs you see see that all the time. Hey, Pete, I wonder, have you had, I'm sure you have, had athletes turn up and think, you know what, I am so first or second round pick, and you know full well

that they'll be lucky if they see fifth or sixth. How do you manage that kind of expectation within an athlete? We give speeches up front. We give it on a daily basis. We don't look at draft rankings. We don't care. It's all a smokescreen show anyway. Nothing online means anything. And even the information it the clean slate we don't care what their perceived rack ranking is because whatever the rack ranking doesn't matter gotcha and reinforce that it keeps them off the internet which is great no offense is there a position in terms of football that you find most challenging

to get to a point where you're satisfied? Definitely running back. Um, cause you know, running back is the one where they have to run fast. I mean, you could also say lemon, but if an offensive lineman runs a five, two or a five, one, I mean, a lot of people don't see a big difference in that, but if a running back runs a four or five or a four, three or a four, six or a 4-5 that's pretty significant so you're gonna see a lot running backs and linemen definitely come and beat up the most i'd say moreover with running backs because they're bigger and when they get hit they get hit full speed yeah they hit the second level it's not like with linemen hit every play but they're not running it you know 18 miles an hour and then taking a hit running backs just come in with so much wear and tear. You know, if they don't feel pain, even if they don't have an

injury, just the bruising itself from the wear and tear of football is excessive. And you have to, and running backs honestly like to train. They want to be fast. So the biggest challenge with that is getting them to commit to the alignment protocol the regeneration the recovery the medical side and back off on the training initially but it's hard because again you're trying to build a trusting relationship they want to see what this great speed program is all about and you're making them lay on a medical table for eight hours a day it's very very difficult and challenging but luckily i've had enough running backs that have bought in had success that it's still challenging it's just less because I've had so much success with that particular position and they've already got trust in you from results that you've had previously

has has a player ever turned up what you would call combine ready and just gone you know what I don't have to do anything with you you You're ready. You are already there. Anyone ever done that? Not, not ever. They think that, but once you put them on the clock, I think it's shell shocks. Like when you're playing football,

it's all relative. Let's just say that the entire realm of college football is only at 75% in December because they played a season. But if you're playing with and against everybody that's beat up like you are, it's all relative. But when you put yourself on a clock and then compare it to what you had with your strength coach in July, there's going to be a difference. I think people that are used to running four fours and four threes are shocked when they're running four sevens and four eights.

So it definitely makes them understand they didn't really get slower. Their muscles are just not contracting because of all the deep bruising. Let us reset those joints and then the natural athleticism will just take place naturally. And then when you train, you add an addition to that. So speaking of that, when you're talking about these guys that come in and they're so beat up and injuries, basically, like you say, even if it's just the wear and tear of bruising, they don't even know how beat up they are. We have a clip of John Ross at the Combines this year, 2017 Combines. He actually breaks the record for the 40 at the Combine, the Combine record. And what they don't show in the clips is that afterwards, he starts limping. Like he runs through and it's great, but then he comes up kind of gimpy at the end. So I want you

to take a look at the clip and then let's talk about injury and how you prevent it and what you do and why this may not have happened under you go ahead take a look so here's John Ross he's about to take off on the 40 here he goes he's running he just ran through 422 no way the official time for John Ross according to the electronic timers here at the combine, is 422. Okay, if you're looking at that, Pete, do you see anything in the biomechanics that gives you an idea of why maybe he was limping afterwards? Yeah, at the very end, he starts out. Now, there's an extended clip here where you can see, actually, the little stutter he takes when he's already run through the 40.

You know, as he's slowing down, he takes a little stutter he takes when he's already run through the 40, you know, as he's slowing down, he takes a little stutter step, but then there's another clip that goes on for another minute and a half and they show him and he is, he's treating his leg very, very gingerly. Like he might've pulled something. So, um, what do you do to work with the players so that that kind of stuff doesn't happen? I mean, first off, we have to be fair to John Ross. I don't know him. I didn't train him. We've got to be fair to the trainer.

No, fair enough. That's a good point to make. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know exactly. It could have been a guarding pattern. When your muscle reaches its threshold of power and you try to exceed that threshold, which will happen when you get into that cycle

of the 20 to 40 zone sometimes it'll just guard you feel a tightness you'll feel like grab it's not pull damage it's literally just your body telling you to exceed the threshold which definitely happens in training it happened in running you know so because I don't know him and don't know exactly what happened, it probably was just a guarding pattern. And intelligently, he just shut it down at that point, which I've seen athletes do. The only thing that I can speak of is what happened with guys that I've trained. And a great example is Keith Marshall last year. He doesn't have the household name.

He's not a first-round pick, but he was the fastest guy in the 2016 combine when we got him the biggest with him is the fact he had multiple knee surgeries and he had the hamstrings coming out of college he didn't really uh you know he kind of played behind Todd Gurley and all that so he just got was in a very very unlucky unfortunate situation so and he even told me though I can obviously play football fast, but when I do 40 yard dash training, sometimes, um, I have a hamstring issues. So with him, he was fast. It was just for our ability to have him control his stride. And that is a trainable effect. So when we train somebody like that, of course, after he ran his two forties of the combine, even though he ran a four-2 whatever um so he was not necessarily limping but he definitely said yeah i can feel that guarding pattern coming back

on so he went and did the exercise i taught him to do reset it and he finished and did his position work you know so really it's about when you're that fast but you have a football body and football injuries the easiest explanation is you got to teach them how to control their stride. And we, and all the guys we've ever trained that ran that four, two range, those types of things happen, you know, and even with the Marcus Van Dyke was the fastest guy we trained in 2011. He ran a four, two, five, um, same kind of thing. But once we taught him how to control the stride, it was better. But again, it always goes back to what the deficiencies are. And Keith's issue, it was in his trunk, it was spine.

The more we trained and aligned his spine, the more he was able to control his stride. So it's completely on an individual basis. Wow, that's pretty cool. So it doesn't seem that there are too many things that you cannot overcome in terms of athlete development in terms of all areas of performance i mean you've got a very holistic program anyway yeah definitely we like to think ourselves as a one-stop shop we've been called that before i'm very proud of that um i mean i think the main obstacle that we're ever going to face is time we had a couple athletes this year and i hate it but it does happen that just

unfortunately could not run by Indianapolis. They came in with significant injuries and we got them better. They passed the physical, they weren't medically replied, but they weren't close to being a hundred percent. So they had to wait till their pro day, you know? So, so it's not like it's a perfect program. I mean, sometimes guys just need more time and, and just the unfortunate part of the business, but you got to make intelligent decisions when it comes to a guy like that because the last thing you want is for him to go to the combine and get injured. If he's not. Thank you so much for your time.

Really appreciate it. And I think you're doing splendid work down there in Florida, and I hope it continues for you and a successful program. So brilliant to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here, Pete. And hopefully you'll come back whenever we're talking about all things performance. I appreciate it, guys.

Thanks for having me on. That's fascinating stuff. Isn't it? I mean, when you think about that whole program, he's gone from top to bottom, from left to right and back down again. It's truly holistic and athletes can only benefit out of it. It's okay when you're building physical strength, power, explosive, and you're getting the mind right.

But, Chuck, in the end, combine and draft is about one thing and one thing only. Yes. I'm going to go with personal satisfaction. If that personal satisfaction comes in the shape of a dollar bill, you're on the money. Yeah. And speaking of which, here's the perfect little clip. Nobody says it better. Evidence that.

Here you go. Jerry! Yeah, what can I do for you, Rod? You just tell me what can I do for you. It's a very personal, very important thing. Hell, it's a family motto. Are you ready, Jerry? I'm ready.

I just want to make sure you're ready, brother. Here it is. Show me the money. Oh! Yo! Hey! Hey! Money!

Jerry, does that make you feel good just to say that? Say it with me one time, Jerry. show you the money show me the money show me the money show me the money! Yeah! Show me the money! That's it brother, you got to yell that shit! Show me the money! I need to feel you Jerry! Show me the money! Jerry you better yell!

Show me the money! Show me the money! I love the black man! Show me the money! I love black people! I love black people I love black people Who's your motherfucker Jerry You my motherfucker What you gonna do Jerry

Show me the money Congratulations You're still my agent You know what I think I'll have what he's having Oh I'll have a double For sure And that's what it's all about

The money. We're going to take that break. And when we come back, we're going to have an NFL Network analyst, lady by the name of Cynthia Freeland. She is going to break down the draft, make sense. And show us the money. Yeah, why not? See you shortly.

And show us the money. Yeah, why not? See you shortly. We're back on Playing With Science. And today we're talking NFL Scouting Combine and the NFL Draft. Joining us now by video call, we have NFL analyst Cynthia Frilland. Welcome to the show, Cynthia. Good to have you on board.

Thanks for joining us. First of all, we should actually tell people that for the NFL, you are a media analytics expert. And so I know you from ESPN, but you now work for NFL, right? Yep, I do. I made a transition in right before the NFL season last year. Right. So now can you just tell people for the benefit of those listening, exactly what a media analytics expert is? Anyone who has fantasy football, they already know you, and they know exactly what it is that you do because you're invaluable to somebody who's into fantasy football. They love you. Or they hate me. Or they hate you.

Or they hate you. So tell people. Listen to what you say. That's the important thing. That's for sure. Tell people what you do. I use numbers and the strategy of numbers to create a game plan. So that can be like on a team level or in this evaluation season.

It can help kind of figure out like, okay, what kind of wide receiver does a coach want? And we can figure out attributes to get that. Or you can say when it comes to team time, you can say these are the trends that this team has exhibited. And these are the trends that the team they're facing has exhibited. What might happen from that? So predictive analytics is basically just a recipe to try to understand strategy. Gotcha. So, you know, as with everything else, it's kind of big data.

And then you actually make use of this big data. And before we go any further, we should tell everyone that if you're interested to see some of the things that Cynthia talks about, you can follow her on Twitter at CFRELUND, at CFRELUND, at CFRELUND. Okay. There you go. I just want to get that plug in for you. That's done. Thank you. I appreciate that. So let's jump into this year. Winners and losers. Winners and losers. Yeah.

So the Browns had 5,000 picks. Is that right? Or it seemed they dominated everything. I think 5,000 is exactly the right number. They held in 5,000. Did they use them wisely? So the thing that you have to know about analytics, so there's no such thing as analytics working in a vacuum.

Part of it is talking to the coach. Part of it is talking to kind of figuring out, does the coach have a game plan for this player with their particular set of attributes? So I think what you saw is that they took players who made sense with what Hugh Jackson was trying to implement. So really focusing on defense, bringing Greg Williams in. He's a great defensive mind, a great coach, able to get the best out of his players, at least in his past jobs. Bringing him into Cleveland and then giving him these great tools, right?

You've got an excellent first pick. You've got, I mean, whether or not Reuben Foster plays, he'll be an excellent pick too. There's some injury concern. And then coming back up to get a tight end, that's a great strategy to fulfill the things that you want to do if your coach is on board, which it seems like they're working together. Back to the draft of 2017. Has anybody come out in your mind and you looked at it and gone, wow, these guys really just nailed this whole thing. They got everything they needed and maybe more. Or even from the coach's standpoint, is there somebody that feels like, hey, man, we nailed it?

So to me, like the first round or even two rounds in this draft specifically, we had a pretty deep draft this year in terms of overall talent. But it's interesting to me to see kind of the later round picks, how they can staff up your team. So you see a team like the Seahawks. They didn't think the person that they wanted, they didn't think they needed to stay up in the first round. So they, again, traded out of the first round. And that's worked for them in the past because they have a great track record with undrafted free agents, with figuring out late round picks that last. And then you see the Steelers who take like this kind of opposite approach. And they pretty much just pick where they're picking because, you know, you hear analysts on TV say he looks like a Steeler. Um,

and, and then they figure out, I don't, I mean, I, I guess that that's, it makes sense to me. Um, but, uh, it oversimplifies it saying that. So you see like kind of people picking these pieces. I actually think, you know, I've been trying to find like some silver linings cause I think some Bears fans were confused about trading up when it seemed like they didn't have to. But for me, the the the value that they've got was actually with their tight end. So Adam Shaheen, he's a later round pick. He was out of Ashland, a small school. He's like six, seven to 70.

Some giant. And he caught 16 touchdowns last season so there are some those later round picks are where i think the value didn't the bears trade up for the quarterback trubisky yes that's why they're confused i was looking for a silver lining for him yeah yeah but it's interesting because this it's not a standardized crop of players every year and this year was an irregular crop and it was kind of qb light so you just thought maybe the higher that the higher value would have been on the quarterbacks because there weren't as many maybe yeah i mean i i think to me the um like if they thought they wanted this quarterback

it's not a bad strategy to make sure they get it right like if that was there if that was it then then strategically yep do it go for it right So I think San Francisco ultimately, I mean, San Francisco had an awesome draft. I think their draft is maybe my favorite of any of the classes. They got the players they thought were the number one and number two, and that's where I messed up the Reuben Foster. Sorry. But long story short, they got who they wanted, and they got it where they could afford it, afford it meaning equity. So in the draft, you move around to get players and create equity. It's not just moving down to create more picks.

It's also moving up to get the person you want. To get what you want. Right. And that seems to be very important for a lot of teams to make sure, hey, look, this is the guy. And I think that's because they know their system and they know that, look, or they know how they're going to change their system and they know this is the person that fits in what we're doing. But talk about when you mentioned Seattle. I'm thinking about how lucky they were because when you look at who is their

quarterback now, Russell really wasn't supposed to be there for them. And then he had Matt Flynn there, right? They brought Matt Flynn for a lot of money. Exactly. Working out. Right. And so my point is how much of this really comes down to sometimes just, I don't know.

I don't want to call it luck, but just luck. Like you got, you know, like there's just. Like, you know, like things just worked out. Like, things just worked out for us. Yeah, no, no, so you can't do that. I mean, all right, you maybe back me up here, Cynthia. 2010 to 2012, they draft five or so future pro bowlers. They win a Super Bowl and they go back the year after to defend it unsuccessfully. You don't get that lucky.

That surely has to be by design. No, I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about... They've laid the seeds for a Super Bowl team a couple of years before. Oh, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about just individual players. I'm not talking about a system and the things that it takes to win championships, because you're absolutely right about that.

There's no luck involved there. But I'm just talking about, like, in the case of russell you know that just worked out for them it's also a matter of opportunity and training right so so first you have to evaluate a player accurately and then you have to give them the opportunity to succeed and then that has to work out right so if you evaluated russell wilson you're like hey he's he's worth someone we can put him in this place where he's not forced to start right away. We can give him a chance to grow or whatever. Maybe that's how they viewed it. Because Patrick Mahomes, who was drafted number 10, he's in that situation. He's not forced to start this year. He could end up being the best quarterback in this class because

he gets a little chance to learn behind Alex Smith, get into the system, understand and correct some of the things that people saw as potential deficiencies when he was in college, you know, he gets some time. So opportunity has a lot to do with it as well, right? If you have a great O-line, like, you know, we, everyone kind of underestimates Dak Prescott because he has this great O-line to help him out. Yeah. Incredible. I mean, if he would have gone somewhere else, maybe that wouldn't have been the case.

I don't think you could have. I say the same thing for Ezekiel too, who's you could have. I say the same thing for Ezekiel, too. I say the same thing for Ezekiel. I mean, that offensive line is completely, not underrated, but they don't get nearly the kind of props that they should for the success of these two rookies. Right, right. And honestly, that makes a huge difference.

So a lot of these quarterbacks it's about opportunity so the bears are actually a pretty good team i'm a little confused who the wide receivers are going to end up ultimately being but apart from that like i mean you know jordan howard the running back that he's good they actually have the bears pay their guards more than their tackles which is an interesting strategy that Ryan Pace presumably brought from the Saints to Chicago. So that's an interesting, we'll just see if that works out. But I don't know if he'll be asked to start right away or not. The opportunity that's created for him will totally dictate whether or not he's successful. So when it comes to drafting a college player, can you stick him through an algorithm or is it all about the combine and

game tape and experienced eyes on him while he's playing his college football or do or you can just stick him his name in a computer throw it through a whole lot of equations and come out with a yes or no interesting i wish it was that easy right so um i can give you a really unsatisfying answer and the answer is that like optimally it could be both. So you would ideally work with your coach and coaching staff to enact the attributes that you value the most. So you say, hey, okay, we want a quarterback that kind of looks like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are the things we value most. And then you filter all of the game tape through the smart eyes of the scouts, and you do some subjective coding,

which means like does he look like a stealer, uh, on a scale of one to five and five is the, yes, is the most. And one is the least. And every single guy from our scouting department and every single coach gives this guy five, he looks like a stealer, right? So you can code for things like that. Um, and then you, and then you blend it in through both so that when you're making these decisions kind of in the heat of the moment during the draft, the ideal is if you create the analytic system, the black box as you kind of describe it, and you're in the draft moment, then you take bias out of it. So you don't think about the guy next to you. You don't think about the team drafting after you. But rather you put it through the formula you created, and then you limit your choices to maybe two or three as opposed to 16 or 20.

So you have a more disciplined approach. With that in mind, you just sparked something in me that makes me very curious. How do you as a head coach codify your coaching staff? So, for instance, let's say you get, okay, let's, I hate to pick the New England Patriots again, but I have to. Okay. One thing about their system that you can say is the truth. Players leave, somebody steps in and does the job. I mean, just to me, that says you have a tremendous coaching staff. Okay. So how does a head coach make that decision when it comes to picking a player that may not be the best in terms of what the combines say, in terms of where the draft is? But you know that your coaches can work with this guy and he will do the job.

So that would be where that kind of the subjective coding I just talked about would come into play. I get to stop with air quotes. I'm doing it all morning. Ultimately, you would say, all right, running back coach, do you want to work with player X? And you value their input. And like I said, you could do it on a sliding scale of like out of five, or you could say, or you could say something like, Hey, show me all of the running backs in this that are draft eligible or free agent eligible that are over six to have great, um, receiving characteristics, have great yards after contact characteristics have blah, blah, blah played in this type of offense in college, et cetera. And then you can put them on a piece of paper and you can go through it together and, and kind of solidify your vision. So you have the same vision for the coach and the head coach.

So you're, you're getting this kind of like everyone working together using like some players on some teams can be cogs and more interchangeable, but some players have unique attributes and you have to create a defense around them. Like, you know, Paul Amalo is a good example. He was not exactly a, like a prototype of any one position, but you know, Garrett Blunt was the kind of prototype running back that, you know, that the Patriots like. So it's like prototype versus create an offense around or defense around prototype. You have to balance that. Interesting. So having been a scout for professional soccer, you need to know your coaching staff and you need to know what they're looking for. And then you need to identify players and not just identify the player that you're looking at now, particularly younger athletes. You've got to be able to project where they're going to be in five or so years time because that's the player the coach is looking for

and that that takes experienced eyes that takes someone who's been around understands has been in that player's position possibly but there's a real connectivity between all the levels of the club and the organization also sounds one into the one pair of eyes that goes out and watches a player i'm going to say that shine a light on that right so like take those eyes take that experience and create a way to communicate that to the whole system and whole team so that everyone understands the thing that you like your your unique scouting attributes the things that you can see best then that can communicate that to the group best so that you're making in the heat of the moment during the draft you you can make the best decision. Like I said, these later round picks are the ones where that kind of thing becomes more

like you have to do it quicker and faster so the analytics can help you. The first round or two, you kind of know who you want. There are very few teams who are picking in the top 10 that don't have a pretty strong game plan as to who the one or two people they're going to take. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a much tighter pool, too. I mean, you know, you know who's going to be there, honestly. Chuck, you know I've got a conspiracy theory somewhere up the sleeve.

I love conspiracy theory. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Conspiracy theory number one. Let's have it. So we have private tryouts for college football stars, correct? Yep. Right. So we have private tryouts for college football stars, correct?

So I'm NFL Team X and I've got this guy on a private tryout and he blows all of the numbers away. So I tell him, when you go to the combine, wear lead boots, completely be useless on the bench press. You know that shuttle, that 5-10-5, walk it, right? So he's now going to be a first or second round draft pick, and all of a sudden he drops to five or six. Ah, yeah, but that's a big chance to take, man. Has anyone ever done that? Has anyone ever played that kind of devious game? And has there ever been a player stupid enough to go for that is the real question because you come to me with that and i'm just like nah

buddy you can suck it because i'm going to blow these combines away because if you want me everybody's going to want me yeah no i am i've never heard of that but you can track some teams are very strategic about who they bring in for workouts and some are not so like the if you look to see who the seahawks bring in for private workouts um especially the like guys who you've never heard of there's like a guy named dalton crowson um who played he you know he played at university of new hampshire running back it could be someone that the seahawks give a real look to you on. So some teams give you clues, but I've never heard of anyone, like, tanking their combine.

It's kind of a great conspiracy, though, because if you know a player, for instance, let's switch sports for a second. Kobe Bryant, remember him and his dad? And they were like, we're playing in L.A., and that's it. Okay? So if you're L.A., you're just like, all right. Well, we're just, hey, listen, by the way, we're going to pay you $5 a game. So, you know, you're in a very big advantage if you know a player wants to play for you.

So in a way, it's not so crazy of a conspiracy theory. Unfortunately, in the NFL, there's two things working against the conspiracy. The first thing is the rookie pay scale. So gets paid oh that's right so like that that kind of makes it this equalizer right so if you're on the roster and you're a rookie and it's you know game one that year your your salary is what it is now your signing bonus or what's guaranteed if you're a first or second round pick that changes but then you know like then you like actually in my opinion it's like if you're not going to be a top 10 pick in the first round you're almost better off going in the second round because then they can't protect you

for that fifth year so you get to make your real money in the in after your fourth year right uh so i mean it's just like the way that the shared revenue system works or whatever but that's probably the one reason not to. And then you wouldn't want the negative combine press because then you see the combine can only kind of hurt you. Yeah, because that lowers your value all the way around when you have a bad combine, right? Yeah, it does. I don't think the combined is predictive. It's not overly predictive.

Yeah, it's not. You're absolutely correct. And speaking of that, in your opinion, now the combines are over and everybody's done their thing. Who do you think, give me like top three, had the best combines? Like in terms of accomplishing, like changing opinions about who they are maybe. Bumped up their draft pick. Bumped up their draft pick maybe. Or increased their money.

So using those three criteria okay changing people's minds bumping up your draft pick and also uh bumping up your money who do you think had the best combines so i to me like it's i'm using results to give this answer and i can't imagine anyone doing it more than patrick mahomes because i don't think anyone had him projected in their top 10 at all, you know, quarterback price. So obviously it was probably some combination of like his workouts and his interviews and stuff. I mean, he didn't have like, his combine wasn't like, he didn't run a blazing 40. He, he fell within normal ranges. You know, he, he fell within good ranges. He wasn't bad at the comp, but you know,

obviously if he bumped himself up that much, he must be very special. So basically, he's the benefit of lower expectations. How interesting. He's gone in with low expectations. I mean, he could blow the combine away. Yeah, I mean, he must have. Like, to me, the combine is like, can you follow these rules? Can you handle this situation?

It's tiring. It's like a lot of adults asking stupid questions. Like, can you handle this stuff, right? That's an adult's job, isn't it? To be annoying? Yes. That's all I do now. But, you know, it's like, how can you handle it?

And he's a very nice guy. Like, he's got a good personality. You can see the other. I was watching the quarterbacks interact with each other. I was just very curious. And I thought that they definitely gravitated towards him and Deshaun Watson probably more than the other guys. So that was my takeaway from just watching their body language and who they were looking to. Who were they like, okay, what do we do?

What's going on? So those were the two that I saw. Do you see analytics and their use being more effective on helping college players stay and perform better in the NFL? Is that is that something you hope will become more and more important and more and more prevalent? more important and more and more prevalent? Yeah, I think like, again, it's like kind of this marriage of like, you know, what is this coach with this great vast knowledge in his head that's going to know more than I've ever known? Like in my, in my, and well, he's forgotten more football than I'll ever know in my life. Right. So marrying that with a way to look at things that, that allows you to say, what if scenarios pretty quickly, like, what if we put this guy in wide receiver three or wide receiver two? Like, what kind of routes do you want him to run? So it allows you to explore some of those, like, innovative ideas

that ultimately end up being what wins games. So it's like, how do you do that kind of quickly without – we only have 16 games, right? So some teams have – but since we only have 16 games, you can't – it's not like basketball where you could try different combinations. Yeah. Yeah. You have to you have to hit the ground running and you have to win right away. And quite frankly, by game eight, there are some teams and their season is over and they know it before game eight. Yeah, exactly. So it's like impossible to get back. So, you know, there's not a lot of chance time to take like a lot of chances or try things. So it's like, how do you create a paradigm where you can try

some things without the problem of losing a game? Wow. Wow. This is fascinating. Thank you. Yes. We got to have you back when we talk more analytics and the NFL. And thank you for your insight and explaining so much about the draft and really how it works and how it then progresses forward into coaching and careers yeah fascinating talk to you cynthia thank you so much indeed yeah thank you so much nice to meet you both likewise all right that's it for our show fabulous insight into the combine and how you make it or break it and plus that wonderful insight from cynthia freeland i'm gary o'reilly i'm chuck nice this has been playing with science we will and how you make it or break it, and plus that wonderful insight from Cynthia Freeland. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

And I'm Chuck Nice. And this has been Playing With Science. We will see you all so very, very soon.