StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI: Hockey: Fan Questions and More

Episode Date: June 29, 2017

Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice are back for Season 2 of Playing with Science! First up: answers to our fan’s questions about the physics of hockey. Feat. Prof. Alain Haché, Neil Tyson, and NHL Nashville Predators Left Wing Colin Wilson. (Warning: Adult Language.)Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceStitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceTuneIn: http://www.tunein.com/playingwithscienceNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/ Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. Because our hockey shows were so well received by you, the listeners, and because you had so many questions about physics on ice and its technology, And because you had so many questions about physics on ice and its technology, we decided to make another show just for you and do our best to answer as many questions as we can. And to help us achieve this, we have the multi-talented Alan Hachet, author of Slapshot Science and the Physics of Hockey and professor of physics at Montcalm University in Canada.

professor of physics at Montcarn University in Canada, a man who knows what it means to be in the thick of the action because he is also a hockey goalie. That's what we learned when we talked to him. We did, and we're very impressed by that fact. But we won't stop there. We have a little treat for all you hardcore hockey fans because there will be talking to third-generation professional hockey player Colin Wilson.

Yes, that Colin Wilson of the Nashville Predators and someone who, like yourselves, has an inquiring mind when it comes to science and not to leave out our geeks. We're going to bring in Dr. Tyson, and he will talk to Colin. So stick around for that. It promises to be a lot of fun. Yes, and so to answer all the questions about hockey, or as you so eloquently put it, Gary, physics on ice.

Yes. Let's bring in Professor Alan Hachet. Alan, how are you, my friend? I'm well, thank you. Thanks for joining us again. So what we have done is put out a call to you, the listener, on Facebook and Twitter and any incarnation where we can be found on the Internet. You've got a pigeon with a little message on its leg.

Stop that pigeon. Okay. Just dated myself unbelievably. It's all right. I got there. Yeah. But anyway, what we did was ask you, what do you want to know about the physics of hockey or the science of hockey?

And we got a lot of questions from all across the Internet. So let's take our first one from Rene Douglas. And we always start with the Patreon patron question because Patreon patrons actually support StarTalk financially. So basically... Priority passed. Yes, exactly. For the professor, here we go. What factors determine the speed of the puck? What is the maximum speed a puck can go? Alan, you're up. Yes. So it's all about how much energy is transferred to the puck from the player to the

puck and uh really it's like you cannot give uh more speed than the energy that you're willing to to provide and muscle it comes from the muscles and we know from uh basic uh bio uh medical or kinesiology that about 10 pounds of muscle can deliver up to about one horsepower at the peak and so the more muscle groups work towards propelling the puck the greater the velocity so when you said more muscle groups work toward it are you talking about that would be so i'm let's say i'm like supered. And so I have my biceps because I'm pulling back. I have my back because I'm twisting my trunk. And then my shoulders because I'm pulling the stick down.

So all of those groups working together, the more muscular you are in each one of those groups, the more powerful, the more energy you can transfer to the stick and the puck. Yes. And so different techniques exploit different amount of muscle groups. So the slap shot will use a lot of the leg, the trunks, the upper body, whereas the wrist shot is not as powerful. And it usually involves more like the front, the top of the body only. So a slap shot actually comes from basically ice level up through then back down to the ice. Yeah, it's the whole body. So the legs would propel the body forward and then the rotation of the upper body would move the stick towards the puck and then transfer that energy to the puck.

So now let's say, I think if I'm not mistaken, and I can't remember off the top of my head, so I may be wrong. So for those of you who are going to correct me on Twitter, don't skewer me. Just let me know. No pressure then to get it right. But I believe the top speed of a puck right now has been recorded at 108 miles per hour, I believe.

Is it possible to get much faster than that? And what would the top speed be, looking at maybe the strongest human possible? Very good question. I don't know if anybody has looked at that, but I think we're really close to the limit of what a person can do.

And don't forget too as well that when they do the skills competition, what they have, they take a few strides towards the puck. And that also helps because you transfer that linear momentum from the player to the puck. And that does usually happen in a game.

Usually you'll shoot from, the puck is from where you are, and then you shoot it from there. So typically in a real game, you would never attain, rarely attain above 100 miles per hour. Could you imagine if you took two steps back during a game? By the time you got to the puck, you had about three guys on your back. Yeah, exactly. The game is moving too fast. The game is moving way too fast for you

to actually take a couple steps and get a skating movement towards the puck. But let me ask you this then. When the puck, normally in a slap shot, you have a guy who is being fed the puck. It's rare.

It's rare that you will just have a guy stop, draw back, and make a slap shot. Normally, it's off of a pass. So somebody feeds you the puck. Does that slow down the speed of the slap shot? Or does the energy of the puck going towards the stick act like it does in baseball and actually increase the speed of the puck correct actually if you look at it it goes faster when the puck is coming towards you because you get this bounce effect adding up to your own effort and it's exactly

what's happening in baseball i think it would be very difficult to hit a home run from a stationary ball. Really, the home run is a combined effort from the batter and the pitcher as well. All right, borrowed energy. Okay, another question. Another question for the good professor here. This time from Howard Pieratt on Facebook. How does freezing the pucks make them glide better and not bounce?

Okay, first of all, I did not know that they froze the puck. I think it's hard not to when you consider its life is spent on ice. Well, yeah. It's quite cold. I'm sure. No, but I didn't know that.

Is there an actual freezing of the puck? Like they put it in a freezer? Do they freeze them? And if they do, is that about the density of the matter in the puck or is there something else going on? Professor, do they freeze them? And if they do, is that about the density of the matter in the puck or is there something else going on? Yeah, so it depends on the game.

I mean, amateur games, they don't freeze pucks. But at the high level, I believe they do have buckets of puck in the freezer somewhere and they use frozen pucks. The main reason, though, is that frozen rubber doesn't bounce as much. So when it's going to hit the board, it's not going to rebound as fast and also off the ice. So it's a dampening effect. It's really like a shock absorbing effect. It stops it from popping around. It becomes less elastic, just like any rubber band that you freeze, it becomes more rigid, so it wouldn't

bounce as well. Gotcha. As our question from Howard there was, does it travel better on the ice because of the fact it's frozen? Technically, yes, but I think it's very close. It would be unperceptible. Unless you use a very warm puck, then it might stick to the ice more. But usually room temperature versus, you know, zero degrees or minus 10, it would not make a big difference. But the bounce effect, yes, you can measure that. So it's really to deaden the puck so it doesn't bounce around. That's the main reason. All right.

Gotcha. Well, that was a great question. And I learned something about that I had no idea that they actually used frozen pucks. That's really kind of cool. Hey, hey, thanks a lot, Howard. Good question. From Facebook, TJ Carroll, I was wondering if you could help me understand which puck would have more velocity, a puck sliding on the ice that's spinning, here we go, or a puck sliding on the ice that's not spinning, which one

would go further and why? Okay, Alain, you're up again. That was a great question. Yes, it made me think a lot actually. And at first it looks very complicated to answer that, but you can use a principle called the conservation of energy to guess that the spinning puck would have more friction. It would lose more kinetic energy from rubbing more against the ice as it travels, right? Because it's rubbing the ice two ways. It's rubbing the ice in its forward motion, but it's also rubbing the ice in its circular spinning motion. That's right. So that would extract energy from its linear motion. So it would technically slow down faster. Now, what's interesting, though, is that it would always stop spinning and moving at the same time. Really? So now, so from a, and I suppose this is a mathematical equation that would,

that would determine this. So no matter how hard you hit it or how far it travels, as it is spinning, the resistance that comes from its linear motion and its circular motion, that resistance will cause the puck to stop spinning and stop moving at the exact same time every single time. Yes. That is fascinating. To explain that, you need a big equation.

Yeah. Just how big? We've only got so much time for the show. That's right. That's right. But, for instance, uh in curling you would see a stone uh rotating and it will never you'll never see a curling stone stop and keep spinning for a little while right or you'll never see it uh stop rotating and still travel uh you know slide on the

ice it would always stop both motions at the same time. Right, right. And what a shame in hockey that we don't have a guy with a broom in front of the puck every single time to make sure that It's not a job you'd volunteer for. Not at all. Which, by the way, you're Canadian. What's the deal with curling? Okay? I mean, seriously. That's Scottish, but that's a Scottish sport. Is that really a Scottish sport? And why do the Canadians love it so much? Ice in it. Just because it's ice.

We have limited options. Limited options. Okay. There you go. We do love Canada, so please do not be offended by our lame jokes. Well, that's fascinating stuff, Professor. I love that. And we've got to look up that equation that I won't understand for one second.

Here we go. Let's go with Sheldon Novak from Facebook. He says, Professor, why do my Winnipeg Jets always suck each year? Not necessarily a scientific question, but since you are a hockey goalie, maybe you could tell us why the Winnipeg Jets suck every year. Yes. Well, I don't want to offend anybody. But, you know, if you look at general Canadian NHL teams,

they have not done extremely well. The last team to win the Stanley Cup was 24 years ago in 1993. And that's been a topic of discussion in Canada. And could it be, let me just,

if I might. Scientific or non-scientific theory? You know what, this is just a postulate that I'm a hypothesis I'm putting forward. Go on then. Could it be because there is an immense talent drain from Canada to America when it comes to the NHL? Now, if I grow up in Canada, everyone grows up in Canada with a pair of skates strapped to their feet and a stick in their hand. Okay. That's all there is to it. And then you say, oh, wait, I'm good enough to play professional hockey.

Two things happen. One, do I want to stay where I've lived my entire life? Or do I want to go someplace new and exciting like America? So you go to America, which leaves less talent in Canada. And therefore, the Canadian teams don't fare as well because all the best Canadian talent is playing in America. There is some of that, but don't forget that the players don't always choose where they play. It's like the NBA or the NFL. They get drafted by teams. Now, you know, Canadian teams are seven out of 30 now. play. It's like the NBA or the NFL. They get drafted by teams. Now,

Canadian teams are 7 out of 30 now. And if you calculate the odds, there's a certain odd that every year a Canadian team has certain odds of winning the Stanley Cup. It would be extremely unlikely. I think the chances, if somebody had made a bet in 1993, that

24 years from now, there would not be a single Canadian NHL team to win the Stanley Cup, the odds against that were like 99.9%. Wow. So something happened. I mean, there are Canadians in the Canadian hockey team. I think it's equally distributed. Okay. I think it's equally distributed. I think it might have to do with the exchange rate. Perhaps it's more expensive to play star players in Canada because Canadian dollars versus U.S. dollars. There's also a big difference in the environment where those players operate.

If you're in Montreal and you don't score for three games, then you're pretty much front page news. Right. If you're in Tampa Bay and you have a drought, nobody cares about you. Yeah. So there might be this added pressure where, you know, it's harder to perform under environments where people are scrutinizing you all the time. I got Sheldon. It might just be the fact that there's got jets in the name the name. If you think about the New York Jets, NFL, not quite working for them either. Just offering that up as a theory.

Got no scientific evidence. Last great Jets, Benny and the Jets. There you go. Alright, yes. John fans in the house, yes. Alright, next up, Mike Kopp again on Facebook. Why is it the puck travels faster, closer to the ice than it does in the air? At least, he says, that's what they say during the skills competition.

Do we agree? He's talking about the puck is still off of the ice. So it's traveling above the ice as opposed to higher up in the air. traveling above the ice as opposed to higher up in the air. Because if it's, it travels faster in the air than on the ice because of the amount of friction, correct? Because even though ice is slippery, the air provides far less friction than ice, thereby making the pump faster. So the closer to the ice, the air is going to be cooler than air. No, what I'm saying is, is that what he's saying? Is he saying that he's, is the question, the puck is still off the ice. And so the higher up you go,

the slower it gets. Is that what he's saying? Because otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. The question doesn't make sense. Yeah, I think it's true that they say that. And I believe it's a technical thing because the radar that measures the speed is at ice level. Now, the radar only measures the speed of an oncoming object. Right. So if it's coming, if the radar is here and then the puck is coming this way, then it's not going to measure it. It's rising up from the ice elevator. So that's rising up from the ice elevating it. So that's what it is.

So the puck on an angle, if the puck is coming off the ice at a 45-degree angle, what happens is the radar only measures it for a period of time that it's oncoming, and then it's kind of above the radar, as they would say. So I suppose what you're saying, Professor, is if it's traveling in a directly linear approach towards the radar, it's going to be faster. If it's rising from isap say it goes over the the goal it's about then the the radar is going to see it as a slower object because there's an angle involved in the way it travels that's right and that's exactly what happens with the police radars as well so if you if you're just moving across a police who's parked he's not going to

measure your real speed he's going to measure a component so for all of us live listening to this in the future use your flying car exactly we got to the same place at the same time just make sure you're on a angle when you get to when the cops pop you one that's great all right man that's very cool well that's good to know that's good to, Alan Hachet, you are going to stay with us. We are going to take a break. And when we come back, we will take more of your questions about the physics of hockey, physics on ice with the good professor himself. This is Playing With Science, and we'll be right back.

Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. And today we are taking your questions about hockey. You may already have heard us call it physics on ice because that's exactly what it is. And to make sure we give you the best answers to what are some brilliant questions,

we have Professor Anand Haché, author of Slapshot Science and the Physics of Hockey and Professor of Physics at Moncton University in Canada. Right. And already we've learned some really cool stuff like, number one, they freeze pucks in professional games. Did not know that. And flying cars can evade a speed radar.

Flying cars will avoid radar detection. Every day's a school day. It's going well. So, again from Facebook, Lance in Topeka. I believe KS is Kansas. Right, I like this question. Hello, science advocates. Oh, I like this.

This is even better. How is it possible for the glass to protect fans from direct hits from the puck, yet I have seen players check through it? What forces are responsible for this? Okay, Professor. That's a good one, Professor. Let's have the, okay, I like that question. Do we know what forces are responsible for this? Okay, Professor. That's a good one, Professor. Let's have the, okay, I like that question. Do we know what the glass is made of?

Is it something like Lexan or one of those type of composites where it's not really, first of all, it's not glass. It's not pure glass. That's number one. So do we know what the glass is made of? They tend to be nowadays plexiglass. They changed it from tempered glass, which used to be very rigid and heavy, so the players would hit against it and feel really a lot of pain

because it doesn't move very well. Plexiglass is more flexible, so it'll absorb some of the shock as well. Now, you've seen those footages sometimes. A puck will hit the net and it'll just shatter in all like millions of bits. And that's tempered glass. The plexiglass would never do that. Now, would the body go through? Yes. With momentum, a large body will just keep going through. Whereas the puck will tend to stop. Most of its speed would be lost there.

So, yeah, it's called safety glass for that reason. will tend to stop. Most of its speed would be lost there. So, yeah, it's called safety glass for that reason. It will stop pucks, but, you know, bodies will go through. What sort of speed does a guy at about 220 pounds need to be going before he ends up in row two with the spectator? It's a difficult question to answer because I think most of the time they break. It's a flaw in the glass. Sometimes it doesn't take that much. Right.

Okay. One of life's imperfections. There you go. All right. Well, let's take the next question from Gregory Schmeggery. Gregory Schmeggery coming from Instagram. And his real name is Greg Dimitrakos from Toronto. And he's from Toronto.

Oh, hey, this is how you start every question. What's that? I love the show, guys. There you go. That's how you get your question on, just FYI. Tell me, the colder ice gets gets the harder it gets too, right? So how cold is too cold? If ice was absolute zero, would it be like trying to skate on glass? Thanks a lot. So first of all, ice at an absolute zero. Wow. I mean, could you play hockey on ice and at an absolute zero, which I believe is minus 273 degrees Kelvin.

Yes. What happens to ice at minus 273 degrees Kelvin? And is there any way to skate on it, Professor? I'm not sure anyone has ever tried. Even the coldest of Canadian nights, we don't reach those temperatures. But I was mentioning about this quasi-fluid layer of water that exists on top of the ice. And it's just a few molecules in depth. And that's what gives

ice its slipperiness. Even a light object, even if you don't have pressure melting or frictional melting, you still have this surface that is slippery. That's why a puck, for instance, can glide easily. Now, that semi-wet layer exists down to temperatures around minus 200 degrees Celsius. And at zero degree, nothing moves. Nothing moves. So that molecular vibration that you're talking about on the semi-wet layer, that would cease to exist because if nothing moves at minus 273 Kelvin, then that vibration stops, right? That's right. There's no vibration. Everything is frozen.

So it would be just as skating on, trying to skate on plastic or floor or something. It wouldn't work. And by the way, I kept saying 273 minus 273 Kelvin. It's zero Kelvin minus 273 Fahrenheit, right? Or Celsius. Yes, correct. Yes, okay. Known to laymen as cold.

Which, right, to everybody else is, damn, cold. But you know someone's going to think, I'm going out in this. There'll be one person that says, I'm going out in this. I'll show you. Absolutely. Wow, so that's interesting. So since nothing moves, you couldn't skate on it.

Yeah, it would be, there's no liquid. The liquid does not exist there. And it would be, it's hard to say what would be the friction coefficient, but, you know, most materials that we know would be, you know, impossible to skate on. And that would be ice as well. So we're talking about this, this layer, you know, the molecular vibration. But how would the pressure, would it not, would the skate not be able to make that, that groove, that cut into the surface? Is that what you're saying now? You mean like if you apply pressure, that would squeeze out?

Correct. That wouldn't be viable? No, because that's a great question, but it's just so thin that nothing can really squeeze it out. I mean, the physics of it just would not squeeze out. Would not squeeze out. Man, all right. Hey, well, let me tell you, Gregory Schmegery,

it's a damn good question for you. I think we got two answers in one there because Eric Johansson from Empirical on Twitter asked, why is ice slippery? Eric, I think your answer just arrived. Yes. I hope you're happy. And Gregory Schmegery. And the answer is magic, Eric, I think your answer just arrived. Yes. Hope you're happy. And Gregory Schmegery.

And the answer is magic, Eric. That's the answer. That's it. It always is. It's magic. Yeah. There's no science. There's no such thing as luck, and there's no science.

Right. All right. I love this. Here we go. Simon. I'm guessing it's Simon for one simple reason. Lavalier. Lavalier. My apologies if I'm strangling your name,

from a farmer village in QC, Canada. And this comes from Facebook. Knowing that the weight of a skater on the blades causes pressure and heat, so the ice melts, the blades carve the ice and allow the skater to move. What would happen if the ice didn't melt under the blades? Well, we may have already had that answer. I think we already got that answer. Unless you've got anything to add to that, Professor? No, ice is slippery. It would be fairly slippery, but it's sure it does help. The fact that it does melt underneath and also

frictional melting also occurs, it does help. So it might be a little bit harder if it didn't melt. But, I mean, again, if you look at a puck sliding on the ice, it goes quite easily as well. So it may cause some difficulty, but it would be negligible, right? That would be my guess, yes. Okay. All right, cool. All right, well, let's move on with Jeff Stasaric. Stasaric.

Stas Starczyk. That's his name. Now you know why I didn't ask this question. Okay, Jeff Stasaric. Okay, I'm going to say that's your name, Jeff. And if it isn't, you better damn well change it to that. We're going with Jeff. I'll go with Jeff.

Let's go with Jeff. There have been a lot of complaints from professional players about ice conditions in arenas throughout the league. What conditions are optimal both for speed and minimal ice degradation? So we've heard of fast ice and slow ice. What makes fast ice? What makes slow ice? And what is the optimal condition for the best skating ice? Yep. So you have certain conditions such as temperature. You want you don't want to close to zero degrees Celsius because then the ice becomes soft. It might be a little bit more slippery, but because it's soft, the skate will dig deeper into it. It'll slow you down at the other extreme. If it too cold it's hard that's nice it doesn't dig as much

but then it becomes less slippery because that layer was talking to you about before so the optimal temperature is somewhere around minus seven degrees celsius plus or minus a few there's other environmental factors such as humidity. You don't want a lot of humidity that would also influence the ice quality. And of course, you want to repair it well between periods. If you have a machine, Zamboni, that is not properly tuned

or something that would also not help. So hang on a minute. One second, Professor. You tune a Zamboni? You tune a Zamboni. Oh, so I'm thinking the Ferrari type Zamboni. Actually, I don't even want to see hockey anymore. I want Zamboni races.

Yeah. Okay, we've diverged into a tangent here. You talked about humidity. So ironically, if you've got a team in the southern states, Yeah. OK, we've we've diverged into a tangent here. You talked about humidity. So ironically, if you've got a team in the southern states, fans coming into the stadium and are going to bring humidity with them, because if they're going to play at a certain time of the year, they just can't help it. Hot, warm air and humidity is going to be coming in with them. Even the body heat of the people in the stadium is going to create a certain amount of humidity just just from that. Right. True. And it becomes a little bit

harder so yeah your machines have to work harder i mean the uh the compressors and uh the refrigeration systems they have to uh you know to work extra to keep the ice cold enough yeah so uh picking up on jeff's question uh optimal conditions a game, will the ice condition not change? Because at the beginning, in a particular style of play, they'll cut the ice up a little bit. They'll make that surface a little bit rougher. And so during a period, you'll find conditions and the way a team or a player will actually play change as the conditions change. Is that right? actually play change as the conditions change? Is that right? Not so much as the type of play will change, but there will be snow. Snow will accumulate.

And when you go into overtime, for instance, they like to, you know, squeegee out a little bit during the shootouts as well. They clean up the middle of it. Because with snow on the ice, you get the puck slowing down as well. So you don't want that to happen. Well, you do because you're a goalie. Yes, that helps. Or maybe not.

The worst situations I've ever seen involved, I think it was in Buffalo, and it was an outdoor game with Sidney Crosby, and there was a lot of snow on the ice, and it made the play very difficult. But indoor, you would never get to that level. Okay, for those who don't know, snow is a technical term for

the ice that gets carved up and shavings. Shavings, yes. From the blades of these skates. Like a snow cone, or if you are Latino, shavings. From the blades of these skates. Like a snow cone. Or if you are Latino, epiragua. Is that another one of your words of the day? Yeah, yeah. Actually, it's a very good thing.

In the summertime here in New York City, you might find a guy standing out in the middle of the street with a big block of ice, and he takes a plane, and he has a blade on it, and he shaves it, shaves it, shaves it, puts it in the cup, puts some flavored syrup on top of it, and it's called a bi-bi-bi-bi- Now I can't even say it. Bi-bi-bi- Damn it.

Biragua. That's what it is. Biragua. Yes. Just like the treat itself, worth waiting for. Right. Moving on to our next question. Brad Guest from Facebook. Hi, folks. Hi, Brad. waiting for right moving on to our next question brad guest from facebook hi folks hi brad just

wondering what the actual contact surface a fresh skate blade has with the ice and what is the decrease decrease of its drag coefficient here we go technical stuff averaged out over the course of a game has anyone done such a survey well there's only one person to answer this, a professor of physics and hockey player, Alan Hachet. So, Professor, your thoughts on this question? It is not very long. I mean, if you look at the underneath of a skate blade, it's kind of rounded like this. And the portion that actually touches,

you're looking at maybe 10 centimeters, a couple of inches. Wow. And, yeah, over the course of a game, it would not, the drag coefficient would not necessarily decrease. If anything, it would increase because of the shavings, the snow on the ice. It would be, you know, it would increase. Typically, that's what you see. Right. Your accent, the blades, it's going to slow you down.

The drag coefficient is going to increase, not decrease, because you have an extra, I don't know what you would call it. It's the same material, but it's in a different form on the ice, and now you're traveling over top of that as well. Yeah, correct. Okay. Let me ask you something. Go ahead.

Go ahead. I'm sorry. Because this question just made me think about when you said the ice is rounded so that there's just really a little bit of the surface of the skate that, I'm not ice, the skate blade is rounded on a hockey. Yeah. So why is the skate blade rounded on hockey, but then on the figure skates, they're like a long flat blade?

But then on the figure skates, they're like a long flat blade. Why do they round the hockey blades like that? Because figure skaters seem to have a great deal of agility and mobility on the ice. What is the purpose of doing that? The figure skating blades is actually not that flat. It looks a little bit like a hockey blade. What is flatter, though, is those speed skaters. They have actually perfectly flat blades,

and it's to prevent the blade to dig into the ice and slow you down. What it prevents you from doing though is making very sharp turns. And that's why the hockey blade is rounded because it allows you to take a small radius turn, right? But for the speed skaters, they're going around a large oval. So for them, they don't have to turn on the top. And their blades are long and flat, and they almost look like a straight razor you use on your face. NASCAR on ice.

Yeah, get around that oval track. Here, Alan, maybe you can... How often will a player change blades? During periods or maybe one or two games? Does it depend on an individual and how they play and what reasoning is behind that? Well, I assume you're asking about professional players? Correct, yes.

Amateur would not, yes. Professional guys, because they have a blade minion, a blade butler, whatever it is they have that deals with that especially for them. Yeah, they will sharpen them regularly within a game, between periods, quite often indeed. How many times can you sharpen before you want to throw them out? I would imagine a couple of games because, you know,

every time you take a little bit of the blade, then you change the shape a little bit. So they wouldn't last more than a couple of games, I would think. It's like NBA players with their sneakers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know how they change their sneakers like every other game or some of them every game. Yeah.

Have I had a good game? Have I had a great game? Great game, footwear stays. Bad game. Throw them out. Trash. Right. Yeah.

Never allow people to tell you sports men and women are not superstitious. Oh, and then something. There's a show. There is definitely a show. Right. Moving on and out of this world, Professor, I hope you can stay with us for the space age travel. Space Games Federation.

I should salute. Yes. This is on Twitter. What are the physics of playing ice hockey on Mars? Could we skate like the boys in Helion's Red Planet? Hmm. All right, so, are you up for this one, professor?

Sure. Skate ice skating on Mars? I like those crazy questions. Then you're in the right place. It's interesting. The main difference between here and Mars would be that on mars you had about 40 percent of the gravity funny thing is like you you might think okay you'll feel lighter so you'll go quicker but in fact that would slow you down because you would not be able to exploit

friction as much friction force yeah right so you would tend, like, you know, people you've seen on the moon cannot run as fast as on Earth because you just bounce off the surface so easily. So you would not be able to accelerate as much, in my opinion. Of course, I haven't tried, but this would be my best guess,

is that it would slow the game. Well, you're right, because I've got to tell you, I have been to Mars, and you're absolutely correct. You know, no. But you know what? That's funny. I never thought of it that way.

You're right. The exploiting the friction, it's like when you get on a toboggan. I don't know if you've, I'm sure you have, but if you race your friends in a sled race or a toboggan race, you got to make sure you got a fat guy on your team. You need that fat guy in the back of that toboggan so that you can have the weight so that you can get down the hill faster. You know, it's same type of, right? Same type of premise, I hope. So rear engine toboggan.

Maybe my tobogganing strategies have been wrong all this time. And we were just lucky, you know, that we had this guy Thaddeus who was just big and fat and always helped us win our toboggan races. I'm not sure. Neither am I. Right. You don't have to answer that question, Professor. That one you can just let slide on by there, pun intended.

Right. Ian Treat, Treat82 on Twitter. All right. What other sports would you like to see on ice and why? I'd like to see soccer on ice so it could finally be a manly game. Damn. Oh, my word. I've got thoughts.

Yeah, that's going to evoke an answer for me. Those of you who don't already know, Gary is a former professional footballer. He is a professional soccer player. Past tense, past tense. Who wrote that? This is Ian Triel. Ian, man. Good question. So, Alan, Professor, you're up first. What other sports would you, and this is a personal question, would like to see played on ice? Could be anything. Oh, I'm not sure. There's different

possibilities, but for sure you don't want to see diving because you diving has to be on melted water well done oh alan you brought the funnies i like it it's uh yeah uh boxing on ice already exists that's called hockey uh what else oh this is good i gotta tell you what would be fun is wiffle ball. Like, you know what I mean? Which is like baseball, but you don't have to knock the ball that far. So you use a wiffle ball so the ball can't go that far. And, you know, you get a little baseball game on ice.

That'd be kind of cool. I kind of like the idea of having basketball on ice. Just to see men trying to rebound. That would evoke a little bit of contact ball handling might be a little difficult though like you know what i mean they have to wear gloves yeah yeah it's gonna be cold hands cold hands all right let's go back to to the question and it was uh ian trill so as for soccer not being manly you are referring to the modern game, sir. Back in the day, which would be my day, which was many decades ago,

soccer played in England would have been something more akin to rollerball. If you've ever seen that movie, bones got broken. It was more like hockey than anything you'll watch played right now, but good question.

Hopefully, we've given you a good answer. In other words, Ian, what Gary was trying to say is, I will punch you in the face. That's what he was really trying to say. No, no, no, not at all. We love our listeners. And, you know, there were times... It'd be a punch of love.

Yeah. There would be times during a soccer game back in the 80s where players would viciously attack an opponent's elbow with their nose. Right. Yes. Exactly. For those of you who can work that one out, well done. All right.

What else do we have question-wise? No, that's it. That's it. We are done. We are out of time. And this has been truly a pleasure when Professor Alan has said, hey, Professor, thanks again for all of your insights and being on the show with us, man. We're going to take our next break. You're going to want to stick around for this because up next,

we bring you the player's perspective with Colin Wilson, left winger. Yes, left winger with Nashville Predators. And he, because it's a special treat for everybody, we're going to bring in the big guy. Yes, Dr. Tyson will be in the house. Stay tuned. We're back shortly. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science.

Yes, it is. And today we're exploring the realm of physics on ice, a.k.a. ice hockey. Joining us by phone is Colin Wilson of the Nashville Predators. Yes, that Colin Wilson. Colin, welcome to the show, sir. Hey, yeah, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure, Colin.

Thank you for being here. And in addition to Colin, here in the studio we have, when you talk about science, physics, astrophysics, you name it, his name is synonymous. I don't think he needs an introduction. Let's do it. Let's do it. It's the man, the myth, the legend, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Well, thank you. Thank you. I didn't know I was a myth. Yes, I'm telling you, you are a myth. You don't exist, Neil. You are a hologram that the universe has created. I'm delighted to lay down some physics wherever

you know you put up the physics bat signal right in the sky and I'm happy to show up oh you answered the call I like that

you answered the call it's physics in everything so we'll just we'll just hear hear about this play oh man could you do it could you actually do

every answer like Batman where you're just like cosmic background radiation you know Batman no which Batman do you want just like cosmic background radiation. Batman, no. Which Batman do you want? Which version?

You need the one that needs a Ricola. You want that one. Yeah, exactly. Wait, what is his name? All of them. All of them after a certain point. Who won the Adam West version? Yeah, the one

who played American Psycho. What's his name? Christian Bale. Christian Bale. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's the guy. That's the Batman. I's his name? Christian Bale. Christian Bale. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's the guy. That's the Batman.

I got a question right. Anyway. So here we go, guys. Let's do the clip. What we're going to do right now, because we have Colin Wilson on the line, who is, by the way, a third generation professional hockey player. That's a thing. That's something. That's amazing.

Wow. Yeah. So Colin, your grandfather was a professional hockey player, right? Yeah. He played two games for the Montreal Canadiens before having to retire. And then my dad played another 552 games. And so I get to be the third generation making it. Okay.

So now do they say to you, you young'uns got it easy. Back in my day, we didn't wear helmets or face masks or anything. Do they get on your case about that? Yeah, my dad definitely does. Now that the professional sports have us chartering, he used to talk about having to sit in the airport, have connections, things like that. Definitely he's a little bit more cushy than back in his day.

You're just a bunch of wusses. I'm pretty sure your grandfather had no teeth. Is that correct? You know what? He actually got a hold on to his teeth, and he was a fighter. So I don't know if he had a good dentist and never told me, but he got to retain all. Good bulb and weave by the sound of it. Yeah, look at that.

Wow. He's a hockey fighter with all his teeth. Maybe he should have been a boxer. Oh yeah. All right. Let's get this clip. All right. Let's get the clip. And here's a, for, for those of you who are don't have the pleasure of seeing us on video. don't have the pleasure of seeing us on video. This is a clip of Colin Wilson breaking away with the puck,

doing a little pretty stick handling, and then he splits a defenseman and gets by him and then does a sweet little top shelf backhand for a goal. So take a listen. I thought he scored. He stopped. Nashville, number 15, minor foul for Tribute. Here's the play at the net right here. Colin Wilson stopped it right there, guys. You can see clearly that puck has crossed the line. It actually ricochets off the back bar, not the cross bar. So, think about the goal mark.

That explains something. That's a language we all understand, Stu. The goal mark goes off to the point on the scoreboard. There you go. Colin, that had to feel twice as good, right? Yeah, I mean, it was a good feeling. And, yeah, they waved the goal off really quick. I saw it go in.

So once they finally called it a goal, it definitely felt a little bit better. Yeah, yeah. For you, it's like the joy of scoring two goals. Once when you do it, and then when they say, yeah. It's like, for you, it's like the joy of scoring two goals. Once when you do it and then when they say, yeah, you did it. Well, plus, you did that so smoothly.

It was, yeah, anybody could do that. You know? Yeah, well, that's the elevation of an athlete. That's the elevation. And when they make something

as complicated as that, look as if, you know what, I'm in my armchair. I could so do that. Yeah, I could so do that. And on that particular play, look as if, you know what, I'm in my armchair, I could so do that. Yeah, I could so do that. And on that particular play, like I said,

so Colin comes across the net and he jukes a defenseman, fakes another defenseman who was on the other side of the net, and the goalie. Yeah. So, I mean, does that make you feel even better too

when it's like, you know, it's one thing to get a feed from somebody and, you know, make a great little you know wrist shot or you know to do a slap shot and and and but you know off of a pass but when you do it like that does it give you an extra sense of satisfaction because you kind of single-handedly did it yourself yeah i mean i feel pretty fortunate right now for you to have shown probably the nicest goal of my career on this show.

Downhill from there. It was definitely a good feeling there. It's nice to score pretty goals and have an effort that you yourself do a lot. That one definitely felt pretty sweet. And I was fortunate to beat the goalie and make it all work.

Colin, from what point when you get the puck, does standard set plays within a certain part of the rink and your just natural innovation take over? Great question. Yeah, it just depends. Yeah, like right there, I guess, I mean, people talk about being in the zone or something like that. There wasn't a whole lot of thinking.

It kind of felt, when you watch the replay, it's actually kind of amazing how quick it, when you watch it, it's like, wow, that happened really quick. And things just kind of slowed down for me there. I saw the defenseman putting a stick down, so, you know, I could put it through a stick and, um, yeah, so it's, it just becomes a little bit more of an instinct as opposed to a lot of thought happening. What you've just described there is a heightened sense where until you get in that situation, you, the time doesn't slow down, but once you're there,

and I think you'll have been in that situation so many times, you're attuned to the fact that you can start to absorb a whole lot of things like where the defenseman's skate is, where the stick is, goalkeeper's position. Those things, how much of that has been training and how much of that is just, you know what, I'm third generation. This is what I've got. I've got this in my DNA. This is in my DNA. See the hockey stick right there in the DNA?

It's a double helix of a helix of hockey sticks. There you go. Composite double helix. Go on, sorry. Yeah, so I think certainly a lot of it is training. To be able to have the kind of hands to be able to make that play, the shot at the end to be able to get it up. But at the same time, I mean, it's just kind of hands to be able to make that play, you know, the shot at the end to be able to get it up. But at the same time, I mean, it's just kind of,

it is a bit of a human experience, you know, in certain times where the brain kind of just ends up slowing down. You know, people describe it as a zone. Other people, I don't know, maybe get it from a meditative standpoint. But definitely a little bit of training and a little bit of just kind of, yeah, the way that humans are made, it just kind of slows down, you know, in that in that instance. Hey, let me ask you, switch gears for a second, because, you know, one of the things that we talk about, you know, in hockey, of course, is the importance of the skates, the technical advancements that have been made to skates recently. the technical advancements that have been made to skates recently.

And in a game against Minnesota, you actually popped your blade off the skate. You popped your blade off the skate. But here's the thing that really got me. You continued to play on one freaking skate. Because I can. It's like, so what I want to know is two things and then neil i want you to maybe uh chime in with the actual act of skating on ice from a physics standpoint and what kind of pressures are being applied so colin for you is have is skating just second nature for you the fact that because for you it looks like the way I walk and the way my shoe feels against the ground is the way you skate and the way your skates feel against the ice.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely just turned into, yeah, walking, running. You know, it's like riding a bicycle. You kind of never forget. You go out there and, yeah, it's just second nature. I mean, I started skating when I was about two years old and 27 now. So 25 years of being out there, you just get used to it. Wow. Yeah, you definitely compared it to, yeah, somebody who likes to run or something like that.

That's cool. And Neil, for skating itself, the act of skating, what are the physics involved in the acts of skating? Just to bring some science into this. I mean, it's almost too much information. I can tell you, it's almost too much information because there's a lot of physics behind why he glides on the ice and any skater glides. And you think we glide because it's ice, right? That's the answer we give ourselves and we're done, but that's not the answer. All right. So it has everything in this world to do with pressure, pressure, the physics of pressure. And pressure is force divided by area simply. Okay.

So pressure and force are not the same thing. Okay. So it is why a knife, a sharp knife cuts and a dull knife does not. All right. If you bring a knife to food and you press down and it cuts easily, you say, oh, that's a sharp knife. Right. Because you put a certain force on the blade. Right.

And it just cut easily. Now the blade is dull. Now you put the same force on the food and it does not cut. That is why I did not make it in prison. Because I had dull knives and they were just like, that guy doesn't know what he's doing. He can't cut. He can't cut it. So go ahead. Sorry.

So what happens is the area of the cutting edge of the blade is what matters. A dull blade Skates are super sharp. Yes, well, I'm getting there. So a dull blade, a dull knife blade, has a bigger surface area than a sharpened knife blade.

Right. Okay? Right. And if pressure is force divided by area, the smaller your area, the bigger the pressure, because the smaller the denominator. Denominator. Right.

So it's almost like I can't say I'm saying this wrong, but you'll know what I mean. OK. It's almost like by decreasing the area, you're increasing the force, even though you're not really increasing the force. We have a word for that. It's called pressure. OK. So you're increasing the pressure. Thank you. So I just made it Okay, so you're increasing the pressure. Thank you.

So I just made it far more difficult than it had to be. By simply sharpening the blade, you're using the same force and you have a higher pressure. Higher pressure. Okay? Right. And it's the pressure that's cutting the food. Okay, so now. Now you got that.

We got that. Okay, so now. By the way, I'm really hungry for a steak right now. Okay. You want to cut a steak. So water. Okay? Okay. You want to cut a steak. So water, okay. Okay. All right.

If you cool water and now you bring it to 32 degrees and you freeze it, water, unlike most other ingredients, expands when it freezes. Right. Okay. We know this if you put stuff in your freezer. Leave freezing room. Well, if you've ever filled an ice tray, you know that you fill it, and then when it freezes, the ice bulges above

the ice tray. It bulges about 10% above. Right. Okay? This is the same thing. This is why icebergs, there's 10% floating above water. Okay. Okay? Ice is less dense than the water from which it came. Okay. Because it expanded. Alright. That's why ice floats Otherwise ice would sink

Okay, so now watch If you squeeze ice Ice doesn't want to be squozen It wants to be frozen, but not squozen You just made that word up I know, but it's a good word. It's a good word. If you squeeze ice so hard that it cannot withstand the pressure, you're trying to squeeze ice into a smaller volume.

That is hard to do. In fact, it is so hard, usually you do not succeed. The ice busts out and breaks your pipes. Absolutely. Okay? You got me there? I got you. You can punch up water in them, and there's no place for the water. It becomes ice. Ice is stronger than your metal pipes. Gotcha. Okay, so now watch. I must become smaller volume now. The only way I can do that is to turn back into water. Go back to water, which from whence

I came. From whence I came. And so you can turn 30 degree ice into 30 degree water under pressure in an instant. And then it refreezes right back. And once that pressure isn't there, it refreezes instantly. So now, now, why do you want a sharp skate blade? It's not sharp like a knife, that's stupid. Because it actually has a flat bottom,

but it's, and we got a guy still out. Colin, Colin, Colin. When they quote sharpen the blade, it's, and we got a guy still out, Colin, Colin, Colin, when they quote sharpen the blade, it's actually concave and you, you have the two edges, the left edge and the right edge of the blade. Isn't that correct? Yes, it is. Okay. So, um, so he's either skating on the left edge or the right.

He can skate on both edges. Right. We'll have, he'll be, he's more nimble if he's on one edge or the other. Okay. So now watch. The sharper that is, his body weight, good old boy hockey player, what do you weigh? 200-something? What are you?

Yeah, 220. 220, that's what I figured. Good old guy. So now he's got 220 pounds. If he goes to one side of his blade on one skate, it is 220 pounds on a razor blade. On a razor blade. That ice has no place to go except melt into water in that instant. So then that becomes the glide.

That is the glide. That's why he glides. That is why. why he glides. That is why. And the instant his blade comes out the other side, it refreezes and there's hardly any record of him having done that. There is another theory. Wait, wait, wait.

So now, wait a minute. I will pause. Just so you know, it is possible to be so cold that even those pressures don't melt the ice. And then you cannot skate. So you can have ice. Hey, Colin, have you ever been on ice that felt like you couldn't

skate on it because it's been so cold? Too hard. Well, it's usually like a couple hundred degrees below zero. Oh, well, then forget it. Sorry, Colin. That would mean you wouldn't be talking to us right now because you'd be in a cryogenic state. So, this is why you can skate,

and it's why you can be so nimble. It is why it is slippery on skate. This is why all of that is the case. Wow. So Colin, I know you're a big science fan, and you can't help it, as we all can't. You're a big fan of Neil's. Are you conscious of science and maths within your sport naturally, and have you ever found any reason to be using it to advantage in your game?

Not necessarily, but we actually see nowadays in terms of our recovery and treatment, I actually just came back from laser treatment. So it's interesting to see how science has developed in terms of training as well as recovery. So, yeah, I mean, the theory with the laser is putting, you know, photons bringing energy at the cellular level in order for it to heal. So it's been pretty cool to see science changing the game. And you also mentioned the way that skates have now developed. It's certainly using science more to get you a little bit faster, and then the training making you bigger, faster, and stronger.

So I guess it's applying a little bit more pressure on that ice, so you get faster there. Wow, cool. One other question I wanted to ask when we were back, when we were talking about your goal. How much active control do you have on the angle off of the ice that you send the puck? So naively you say, oh, they're hitting the puck and it's just sliding along the ice, but you can actually lift the puck

arbitrarily to find a hole that you can see. Isn't that correct? Yeah. Okay. So how much control do you actually have? So for me, it's a little bit different than one of the top goal scorers on our team. I mean, there's some guys that can really hit those little areas, and it's extremely impressive to watch. But, yeah, I mean, everybody, you know, practice their shot, you know, elevating the puck, and you certainly develop as you get older more control on that back end. I have a decent amount of back end goals in my career,

and I control elevation pretty well getting it up quickly from that back end position. Well, you and I have something in common there, Colin. Getting it up in the back end position is interesting. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yes. Oh, that's just taken it to a new level. Yes, I did.

I'm sorry. What I'm saying is that, of course, ice is slippery. If it's airborne, then the puck is a ballistic projectile. Right, absolutely. Yeah. And so it would have different mechanics on it than if it's actually sliding on the ice. Absolutely. It's an interesting little fact.

I hadn't thought that through. And it's very cool, like, what you just said about him, the way you're manipulating the puck. Do you feel like the stick is an extension of who you are and how in touch with the puck are you when you're stick handling? Yes, very much so. I'd say it's definitely an extension of your body. I mean, again, when you've been playing hockey for i mean i guess i'm at 25 years now um it just becomes kind of second nature to have a

stick in your hand and you know you can do some pretty um pretty skillful things when you've been you know but you've been at it for a long time so um i mean you make those i mean it's the same thing as anybody working you know working at something for 25 years. You make some pretty cool improvements, and I definitely feel like an extension. Colin, before we let you go, and I know you're on a busy schedule on the road, just where do you see the development in hockey, be it through recovery from injury, psychology, from technical and equipment?

Where do you see the future taking your sport? Yeah, it's going to be a scary thing honestly how how fast it's going to get um if you go look at when i go back and look at my dad's age i mean it just looks like it looks like it's slow yeah it looks like they were walking around the ice right right right yeah yeah so in innovations and equipment in our training um in our recovery, it's going to be scary to see where the game takes us right now. The top players in the league are all actually the best guys. Connor McDavid, he's 19 years old.

The way that he moves on the ice, and there's a couple other guys I can mention, Jack Eichel. They grew up training in a different way than us because the science had improved by the time that they began their training. Because you're now an old fart. You're an old fart now at 27. Yeah, at 27, I'm on my way out. How interesting.

It'll be interesting to see how much faster it really can get because it's really impressive, these young players that are coming up wow that's cool hey man well we are out of time but hey sorry for that Colin absolute pleasure dude thanks for doing this for us really

fabulous for you to have you on the show good luck with the what remains of the season yes man yeah absolutely yeah yeah all right buddy thanks so much

wow that's our show man we're out of time and it was fantastic Neil you're not even going to say goodbye? You're just getting up and leaving? Look at Neil. Look at Neil. He was like, I didn't know.

I cannot wait to get out of here. Dealing with these amateurs. And if our listeners didn't know, every day is a school day, and will continue to be so in the presence of Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, who we're so grateful for. Why do you say such nice things about me all the time? Because you're here in front of us. You're getting ripped to pieces.

By the way, there's nothing left of you. That's our show, Chuck. That is our show. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Neil. Thank you. And thanks to Alan Hachet and Colin Wilson.

Everybody that's been involved has been absolutely brilliant. I wish we could talk more about it, but we've run out of time. Look forward to your company soon. Bye for now.