StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI: Pitching Physics with Ron Darling

Episode Date: July 27, 2017

To break down the physics of a pitch, this week Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly welcome former New York Mets starting pitcher and 1986 World Series winner Ron Darling Jr. and astrophysicist Neil deGrasse TysonDon’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceStitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceTuneIn: http://www.tunein.com/playingwithscienceNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/ Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to this next installment. First, if you may not have known, StarTalk, which we've been running for many, many years now, has a new spinoff program called Playing with Science. Because we recognized that there was a subset of our fan base who loved the science of sports shows that we did for StarTalk. You know, football, baseball, hockey, soccer. And so we figured let's create our own subdivision of StarTalk called Playing With Science. And your main host there, Chuck Nice. Chuck. Hey, man.

How are you? Dude. Yes. Good to see you. Gary, you're in from the UK yes just before they separated we got you just before today what they did was they sent me over to the US with a long rope and at this present moment we're just tugging the UK towards the USA away from France it's very gentle slow, but we're getting there.

So Gary O'Reilly, they are the two hosts and I'm kind of interloping now because I'm the resident astrophysicist. So we're talking about baseball and pitching and dude, we got you here. This is great. I'm happy to be here and thanks for coming guys. Man, man. And you've, so one of the reasons why people make themselves available is because they have a book. So you've got a book that just came out.

Oh, I did. We don't have to talk about that, though. Let's not take any time away from the science. Let's not do that. Okay, he does not have a book out. I like that. It's called Failure in Time for the Biggest Game of My Life. I love that.

Gary's the guy that you go to dinner with and you're like, let me get this. He's like, go right ahead. So, so 14 years, 14 year career. Yes. And in that I, my, my crack team of researchers, 136 wins, 116 losses. Yes. All right. So that's, that's, it's good to be on the upper side of 500 in this game. Absolutely. Good, good. 13 shutouts. Nice. Okay. 1,590 strikeouts. Nice. Very nice. Oh, you didn't know that? No, I didn't. Absolutely. Good, good. 13 shutouts. Nice. Okay, 1,590 strikeouts. Nice. Very nice. Oh, you didn't know that?

No, I didn't. Yeah, we'll tell you. We'll tell you more. How many times you scratched your balls? That was another one here. The roughest ball, sorry. 5,600. I'm from the school.

The longer I look at my stats, the least impressed I get over the years. Okay, yeah, just don't look then. No, we're good. So let me ask you something. What we try to do is mix science with everything we see in life and in pop culture and find it if you didn't even know it was there. And so what I always want to know, you as a professional baseball player, were you ever thinking about the science of the pitch at all?

Or was it just kind of you're feeling it and you're just going with the flow? No, I think you think about the science all the time. I mean, it depends on, I guess, who you are and what you like out of the game. I mean, you're trying to, at some point, spin a baseball. The more revolutions it has, the better pitch it's going to be so you try to maximize that as in more confusing to the batter more confusing to the batter more break um you're not you're not only full with that break is just in case we have new listeners break would be there's the trajectory you think the ball has coming in and where it actually lands as it crosses

the plate yes and that's the break yeah the plate. Yes. That's the break. Yeah, the break. And also, you can change the break by your grip. So if you want it 12 to 6, you're more on top of the baseball, getting the seams to turn over 12 to 6. And if you've only used digital clocks before, no one will have any idea what that sentence meant. That's right. That's right.

That's right. That's right. I played 30 years ago. How old are you? You're 13. He does not know what 12 to 6 means. North to south? I bet he does.

Does that still work? I bet that young man does. He does look kind of smart, so he would know it for that reason. He's actually wearing a Patek Philippe watch, so I don't know how rich you are, young man. It's not his fault. It's passed down. Oh, passed down. That's correct.

Right, right. So go on. So 12 to 6 would be's passed down. Passed down. That's correct. Right, right. So go on. So 12 to 6 would be top to bottom. Top to bottom. But if you change your position on the ball, you can have it more where it goes from, I can't say the clock now, but from 2 to 8. So you can change how the pitch breaks. One thing I tried really hard to do, and I never could could do it is the thing that we called carry. When you throw a fastball four seams just by gravity alone, the ball at some point is going to fade.

It's going to start to work its way away from the intended target. You worked on carry so that the ball would finish. If you finished your pitches, the ball instead of fading which the hitter is going to see and say boy that ball is going to fade out of the strike zone it had carry so it would stay on that line and the hitter would be fooled take the pitch for a strike and it would be a strikeout and they'd look at you like how'd you do that what the hell do you do so is this is this what they call a rising fastball that's what they call rising fast because they don't actually rise they just simply don't fall as much as they could. So your perception,

since we all have a native, because we grew up in Earth gravity, we have a sense of the rate at which things fall. Even if we're not calculating that, you just have a sense of it. 9.8 centimeters per second squared. Somebody has some physics 101.

Actually, it'd be 980 centimeters per second, 9.8 meters per second. Okay, thank you. Stupid. All right. Who's the rest of the national physicists? I know, right. But you know what? That ain't a bad thing when Neil deGrasse Tyson calls you stupid. That's right. I'm like,

thank you. Stay in your lane, buddy. So, guys, do we have a clip of seeing Ron pitch? Do we got a clip? Yeah, as a matter of fact. Could you introduce it? Because I haven't seen it. Sure.

So what we like to do on the show whenever we start the show is what we do is we kind of unpack a single play and then kind of knead the dough and stretch out the science from there. But since we have Ron here, you know, Ron actually was in a game where he struck out Rick Camp. And apparently it was a huge deal because Rick Camp was supposed to serve him his lunch or something. But, of course, he sits him down. And this is the last pitch and the call from the announcer. So let's hear it.

We're in. There's the pitch. Ooh! A devastating swing by Camp. And then you see Ron Darling being carted off on the shoulders of all of the other players. But isn't this like for radio? So how is this going to work? I have to be very descriptive.

I just told everybody what happened. So the batter swung. Right. And I swear the bat missed the ball by six inches. Yeah. And that's what they call fanning a batter. Like that guy. No contact.

He didn't just miss the ball. Like it's almost like he was trying to swing. It's like he was trying to beat somebody up that wasn't there. Swing at a phantom ball. A pinata swing. Good one. I like that, pinata swing. Yeah, because the pinata is bigger than the bat itself.

That's right. But he's not hitting the ball. So do you have a foresight that as the ball leaves your hand, it's an awesome pitch and they're just going to miss it? I think what happens, and I don't know if this is science for you folks out there, but every sequence of pitches puts you in a position to make a pitch that it's going to be the correct pitch. Really? If you make that correct pitch, you know, 99% of you knows that that ball is not going to be. And Ron, is that because you're is that kind of a mental chess match that you're playing with the batter? Is that because you faced him before and he's anticipating something and then you do something differently?

Or is it just a general psychology that you know, if I have this pattern, one, two, three, curveball, and then fastball, or one, two, three, fastball, and then off speed, that I'm going to set the batter up to a point where the pitch that is coming can't be thought of before can't be anticipated uh can't be put in play and if you do it correctly um as a pitcher you really are playing chess but on the bad days it's more like chinese checkers it's just kind of right you did lose 118 games games here. Do you get halfway through the pitch and go, I've seen something I don't like, and go into a different mode of change of thought or process? In the wind-up you're talking about? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, there are times when you get to the top of your wind-up

where your leg is as high as it's going to be, and you're supposed to have kind of a balanced position before you proceed to the plate, and you're like, shit, I'm in a little bit of trouble here. That was the moment I was really trying to get to. That particular moment. How to articulate that moment. And has that ever been because your leg was so high

that you actually just did that? Yeah, yeah, right. That never happened, thank God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then again, if you're a batter, probably how many have never faced you before? They've all got your pattern. So I know if you're going to go one, two, three,

fourth one's going to come at me in a certain way. How many people... Wait, Gary, it works both ways. Yeah, absolutely. The batter has seen the pitcher and often you get a fresh batter with a rookie you know not just a rookie first time at bat and they hit a triple or a home run and oh here's the next great player no they just haven't seen him yet right right you guys just know how to pitch to him yet you know i think that happens

in like a lot of sports because even in in football you when you have a young quarterback who defenses haven't seen that quarterback off in his first two or three games, everybody's like, this guy's a phenom. He's amazing. And all the defenses around the league are like, just wait, kid. So true. The analysts haven't got to him yet. They haven't cut that tape up just quite yet. I think also knowledge can be your enemy, you know.

Oh, really? In the sense that you. Don't say that in front of me. Knowledge. Okay. Just whisper that. Knowledge can be your enemy in the sense of too much knowledge. You have so much that at some point, I call it double thinking.

You're facing a batter. You've faced them before. You know exactly how to get them out. And some part of your brain says, wait a minute. You've faced him before. You know exactly how to get him out. And some part of your brain says, wait a minute. He's got to catch on. I mean, I've been doing this for four and five years. He's got to catch on at some point.

Let me try something different. A ringing double off the fence. And you're like, I double think there. I should have just stayed with what was working. So we can break down the path of the – we can break down the forces on the ball. So the mound – remind me how high the mound is relative to the rest of the field. Yeah, 15 feet. No, no, how tall the mound is above the ground. Oh, sorry, 15 inches.

15 inches, okay. And I'm old enough to remember when the mound was – That would be so cool if it was 15 feet. Oh, my gosh. That would be the coolest game ever. It would be called beanball. That's right. So I'm old enough to remember when the mound was taller than that.

That's right. And they wanted to give more an advantage to the batters just to get more action in the game. I think I made a mistake. It was 15 inches in 1968 when all the pitchers... Now 12 inches now. Thank you, Tim. There it is. So that reduced the advantage.

I just love the fact that Neil knew that it was 12 inches but he was going to let Ron stay at 15. He's just like, yo, dude, you're a major league

baseball player. You don't know how high I am. I can't help you if you don't even know what I'm talking about. So there's not only that and there's so much

written about tall pitchers even though they're not always necessarily the best. I'm thinking of who's the guy from Boston, the short pitcher? Pedro Martinez. Pedro Martinez. He couldn't have been more than 5'10". Yeah, 5'10", 5'11". Yeah, yeah, around there. And he had awesome pitchers, pitches. But let's go with this. You got a 12-inch mound. There's a tall pitcher. Your arm is high up before you release it. So now you have the speed of the ball, gravity pulling it down. You have the spin that you put on it,

and then the aerodynamic forces that influence its trajectory. So all of this is going on. And so I love the way Chuck thought of it as this chess match between you and the batter. And so what I like about baseball, and I wonder if people thought about this, if it is humid out, okay, it will be lower atmospheric pressure than if it is dry air. Because for every molecule of dry air, what's the air we breathe? It's got oxygen, that's 21%. And mostly nitrogen. Nitrogen molecule, which is N2. Two nitrogens attached together. So stay with me on this, because it's worth it, I promise. So just watch this. So nitrogen, the number of particles in its nucleus is 14. So it seven protons seven neutrons you have two nitrogen

atoms together it's 14 plus 14 so nitrogen weighs 28 in these units okay if you swap a nitrogen molecule with a water molecule because now you have humidity in the air water is what we all know h2o so h its weight is one because it has one proton in the middle, and I have two of those, so it's two. And we've got an O, one O, which is oxygen, and its weight is 16. So in these units, nucleon units, the weight of a water molecule is 16 plus two is 18. The weight of a nitrogen molecule is 28. So if you're moving through air and breathing air that has any humidity in it at all, it weighs less than dry air. And so because of this, there'll be less air pressure to help you in a pitch.

That's my point. Wow. Yes. That's amazing. I don't know if pitchers think about this. It does seem counterintuitive because when you breathe humid air. You think it's heavy. It's thick. Heavy, yeah. No sticks.. You think it's heavy. It's thick.

Heavy, yeah. No sticks. Yeah, but that's awesome. That's great. If you will a pitch curve less in humid air, a ball can be hit farther in humid air because the air weighs less. So the mass of the drag on the ball as it plows through the air will be less because the air doesn't weigh as much because you have water molecules sitting in its place.

And I don't know if they thought about this. I'm thinking every baseball player I've ever met, including myself, think exactly the opposite. The opposite. Exactly the opposite. In moist air, a ball can be hit farther because there's less drag on it. And because there's less drag, your curveballs won't curve as much. You need dry air in any case, and cooler air even more so. Now, when people talk about Colorado, which is at mile high.

That's another example. Why doesn't the ball curve there, do you think? No, for the same reason. When you're at mile high up, there's less atmospheric pressure. So thin air or dry air gives you the same effect no no thin air or the thin air because you swapped the molecule out right or low pressure air because you're at high altitude okay both of those will reduce your ability to throw a curveball wow and so what I wonder is, if you're not thinking this, and then you have a game and say, I had a bad day today,

maybe it was all atmospheric, and you weren't factoring that into how you should have handled that game. I'm just trying to figure out how to get rid of some of those 116 losses. Let's find out how many were in Colorado. I can figure it somehow. I can get maybe to 82. After the fact. Fix the 82. Oh, yeah. After the fact.

Fix the books. That's right. Yeah, that was a weather loss, not because you didn't know what you were doing. That was an atmospheric pressure loss. That one's not on me. That's something else. Do you have a favorite pitch? One that you went, you know what?

No matter what's going on, this is going to do the job. You know, pitches, pitchers change over time because your skills when you're 24 are not the same when they're 30 or 32. That's interesting. Your evolution of your pitching style changes as your career progresses. Yeah, and I broke my thumb in 87, which when you throw a curveball, when you throw a good curveball,

you're able to tuck your thumb, okay? So you pull on the seam and you push with the thumb. Pull and push, pull and push. But because I broke my thumb, I had to pitch straight with it. And I could never get that revolution again. Why did you break your thumb? I was diving for a bunt.

That and that. Oh, so you earned it then. I earned it. Oh, okay. I thought he was diving in the Caribbean. No, no. Exactly. He was diving for a bunt,

but he also owed some people a lot of money. Oh, there you go. Where did you go there? And they got thumbs to take care of. Jolly, they took my thumb, Jolly. They told me not to go to Bensonhurst that night. I didn't think about it. That's funny.

Okay, diving for a bunt. That's noble. Wait a minute. Very noble. Ron, can you show that again? I'm watching from this angle. Okay, diving from a bun. That's noble. Wait a minute. Very noble. Ron, can you show that again? So for those of you who are not here, this is the most uncomfortable position that you could be in. So when you throw a curveball, so you right now, for those of you listening, Ron has two fingers across the top of two seams where the seams come together at the most narrow point of the ball.

And then underneath that, instead of wrapping your thumb, which would be like the way you would underneath that Instead of wrapping your thumb Which would be like The way you would think That you would do it Which is you take The flat part of your thumb Where the fingerprint is Put it up under the ball And you throw it

No What he did was Take his thumb In the most unnatural Position possible Which is bending it back Towards the end of his hand And put it under the ball

And that's how you Throw that thing every time? So it's kicked at his knuckle. Kicked at his knuckle. Yeah. You pull with your middle finger, push with your thumb. And I know people can't see this because it's on radio. Right.

But I have a scar on my thumb from throwing that pitch still today. Yeah. Like a long scar because it used to sit right on that seam and it would rip it all the time. And you'd leave a game many times with this bleeding wow that's called the blood ball how long did it take you does that change the uh rotation of the ball when you put a little blood on it and is that legal it is it's a vampire ball they call it and it scares them just enough how long does it take you to master a whole series of different pitches?

I mean, you might have some natural talent as a young player, but then, as you said, your style evolves throughout your career. Do you find that you can change your pitches as you progress? I think that's one of the great things about pitching. I've heard that about people who play golf. There's no mastering. It is a continued search for perfection that'll

never come. And that's the most difficult and beautiful part of trying to pitch. But some pitchers, I think Mario Rivera among them, was not known for having a large repertoire of pitches. A one pitch. Yeah, basically a one pitch guy and people still had a

hard time hitting it. So it can't be just a rule that the more pitches you have, the more effective you can be. Well, I think the ability to control movement. So we've talked about how the ball moves and doesn't move. One of the things that's very difficult is controlling movement. You've got to be able to control it. It's great to have the ball move, but you've got to be able to control it it's great to have the ball move but you've got to be able to control it so it moves three inches instead of four and a half it's got to be able to break gary inches are about the width of your thumb just so he's a brit so we go no no we did we're imperial we have we're drifting towards the state so we're inch we're inch happy yeah we've never been really in race centimeters they're actually actually going back to inches that Brexit is.

Gotcha. We never left. The old country never left inches. We sort of to the centimeters. So we still have gallons and all sorts of things like that. Okay, so we don't have to translate for you. We're not at all stubborn or set in our ways. So a couple more points here.

If you allow me to reflect on this, one of my favorite films, just because it was a head trip, just to watch and to experience, was For the Love of the Game. And it was like the 10th baseball movie by... Kevin Costner. Kevin Costner.

How many baseball movies can the guy make? So if you're unfamiliar with the film, and I'll leave out many of the details, he's an aging pitcher, and the entire movie is inside his head during a game that he's pitching. And he's pitching this game very well. And what, I did not appreciate

what you guys do on the mound until I saw that film. Because you're in his head, and he's saying oh hey Joey in his head hey Joey it's been a while since we both came up at the same time I remember you never you know you never swung at the first pitch you just never did okay so bam threw a strike right down the middle a meatball right down the middle and he looks at it for a strike so so I'm thinking you're just trying to throw it. But no, the mind game, I finally appreciate it deeply what this chess match really is.

You know what's interesting is that people ask me all the time, do you remember pitches you threw in a game? And I try to explain it, if you have children, you remember everything about your child, right? Because it's so dear to you. I can remember every pitch I've ever thrown in a game. if you have children, you remember everything about your child, right? Because it's so dear to you. I can remember every pitch I've ever thrown in a game. If you tell me Wrigley Field in 1984, you faced the Cubs,

you gave up three home runs, you were knocked out in five and a third, a guy threw beer on you as you were coming off the field. What did you throw to say in the third at bat? Boom, I can tell you. Exactly every pitch. Ladies and gentlemen, that's incredible. How I miss. By the way. Absolutely.

Tell us about all 116 of your losses. To try to understand this. No run support. Atmospheric. So you're listening to Playing With Science, a new spinoff of StarTalk. And I'm your interloper host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your resident astrophysicist. But we've got Gary O'Reilly and Chuck Nice. You're the main dudes here.

And who do we have with us? Ron Darling of the New York Mets. The one and only. The one and only, and you had the privilege and honor of pitching for the 1986 World Champion season. So did you guys feel that the whole season going? There's a certain inevitability to your, to the mixture of talent that makes the championship team?

Or are you a team of destiny? Yeah. Well, I, you know, what's interesting about when you're on a team that's special is that it really, it kind of changes how are you going to feel about those people forever? You're in the room. You know something special is going on. I don't know because I'm not an actor, but I'm sure if you're in a hit show, it's kind of the same deal. You know not only is everyone special in the room, but you also know that, hey, whatever happens, I'm there. And you're there for me.

It's a family. And once you have that feeling, it never leaves. Before 86, it was a 19, the amazing. 69. Yeah, 69, the amazing Mets. So I'm born in the Bronx, so I'm fundamentally a Yankee fan. Just forgive me for that. I'm sorry.

I'm the wrong company. Feel free to boo. Feel free to boo, guys. Come on, let it out. I just know that if we go more than eight years without a championship, we me for that. I'm sorry. I'm the wrong company. Feel free to boo. Feel free to boo, guys. Come on, let it out. I just know that if we go more than eight years without a championship, we're pissed off. That's right. That's how spoiled we are.

That's so true. So let's move forward into the later seasons. And even just now, you're a sports commentator now. Yeah. And could you react to the role of the application of science to sports today to training to the analysis the statistics baseball has always had statistics but now it's reached some other like dimension of statistics that's right what's your reaction to it does that add to the game or take away from the game from the old days i think it definitely adds to the game. I think the analytics or sabermetrics of the game,

the math of the game, just adds to your knowledge of the game. That being said, numbers can be used in so many different ways. And how you use them, let's say we all get the same numbers about whatever we're doing. We're all going to apply.

Same data. Same data. We're all going to apply it in a different way same data. We're all going to apply it in a different way. And I think the ones that can apply it, that have the combination of the data, also factoring the human factor, the ones that do it the best with both are the ones that are the better teams. You know what? Speaking of that, so tell me how you feel about when you talk about that kind of data, Moneyball per se. The book and the movie. The book and – well, yeah, you don't have to give me a review.

Even though I would appreciate it. Ron Darling gives it five stars. Five baseballs. The actual use of it as a recruiting and as a GM putting together a team. Do you see the validity of it? Yeah. Well, I think the interesting thing about Moneyball is that you have to put it in historical context. It was a team that did not have a lot of money to spend on players. So, had to find a new way or a new player that could give them a chance of success that no one else was really factoring in. The on-base percentage, something that's been around forever,

had never been looked at as a real plus on a ball club until Billy Bean kind of take the GM of the Oakland A's. By the way, when I grew up, there was no on-base percentage. That's right, yeah. It was not a thing. That's right. It was just never given. And when they finally came over, they said, hey, that's kind of, I like that. Well, when they talk about pitchers, they always talk about whip, right? Walks and hits

for innings pitched. Well, that's always been around. And you knew that if you give up a lot of walks and a lot of hits, you're not a very good pitcher. So that's a, you don't really need the number. Quantify how bad you are. Exactly. So you mentioned Sabermetrics and then Billy Bean. Billy was a teammate of yours in the Mets. And am I not mistaken, Sandy Alderson is GM currently.

So this thing's really quite circular. They're the genesis of Sabermetrics and Moneyball in the Oakland A's, yet they've got such a connection to the Mets and even to you. Well, that's a great question. And what happened, why Billy really took this on, is that Billy Bean was in a first round pick of the New York Mets the same year they drafted a kid named Daryl Strawberry, who ended up being a fantastic player. They were separated by 25 picks in the first round. So you would think if Daryl Strawberry is one of the greatest of all time or a great, great player,

that Billy's got to be somewhere within that planet of players. Nice analogy in front of me. You get points for that. Thank you. But he wasn't. He was a failure. And what he was trying to do, I think, initially, was trying to understand with the mathematics of the game how he was a failure how could that happen oh wow whoa that's so it came out of this that's like trying to figure

out why my father doesn't love me it was it was quantitatively yes exactly because he had he we've discussed here with pitching and the whole center of pitching and me as a complete layman to baseball understands everything is controlled for you and everything billy didn't have in his game at that time was controlled well well i think what would happen is he's he's looking at himself and people who scout the game so the scouts of the game when they look at a guy like billy bean six four 195 pounds had a full scholarship to stanford if you put it in the computer it spits out star And he was not a star So he was trying to understand

How his team could get a bit of an edge By looking at players Not because they look beautiful But they play beautiful And that's where it started But now think about this I mean because you said Well he was a failure

But don't you have to consider the baseline because to get to the level of play where you guys play you are an infinitesimal a portion of the entire global population i mean it's all it's like so small the sliver of people another way to think about that, every person in professional sports was the best ever in their high school. Yeah. And one of the best ever in college. Right. And now they're all in this pinnacle.

Right. And now that separates out. Exactly. And now are you the best of the best? Of the best. Of the best. Of the best. Of the best. And so how do you qualitatively break that down when you're starting with such an elite base to begin with? So yeah, Billy Bean, failure on that level.

But let's look at him as a mere mortal. He's a god. Right. That's right. I was just thinking the sheer number is probably it's tough to be a supermodel. But as far as professional athletes are concerned. Fewer supermodels than professional baseball players. But they don't have to practice.

Well, yes, they do. I see them in the gym. They're there. Oh, really? No, I'm not walking. What gym do you go to? I like the way you think. What gym do you go to?

Hands up if anyone else had that. There you go to? Hands up if anyone else had that thought. The point you make is great, and I think the great preparation I had for it is I went to Yale in New Haven, and I was the best student at my school. In high school. In high school. Everyone I went to college with was the best student in their high school, their hamlet, their town, whatever. Baseball's the same way. Baseball, you were the best player from Oklahoma.

I was the best player from Millbury, Massachusetts, a small town. And what happens is you're thrown into the scrum and you kind of have to- There's rugby reference there. There you go. I'm on it. You're on it, on it, on it. And you kind of have to Just survive Somehow survive Through all All of this talent

And it's not only It's not always The most talented Who make it through And It's It's the ones That's exactly

That's exactly why I went to community college Okay so I was a star So I think we go back To Winston Churchill When he says, many are called, few are chosen.

That would be why the elite are exactly that, the elite. If we go back to... Gary, that's why we have you on the show, to get Winston Churchill quotes. I know. Stick around. I know that man. Between midday and one, we do Shakespeare. We love that.

Stick around if that's your thing. Quoting your people. Yeah, so the other thing is it's okay to have all of these statistics and all these numbers, but is it not more important the question you ask of them

that will make the big difference? Well, I think, Neil, what you were talking about before with the love of the game is the film with Kevin Costner. That is kind of where it's all separated. It's that you're able to

process all of this information, but process it very quickly. If you watch- And he pitches the best game of his life and he's not in his youth when he does it. He knows that it's the last chance for him to pitch a great game. And all the factors that have kind of worked during the movie put him in this position of maybe being able to do something really special for the last time. So what you're saying is that quote is really correct, that 90% of the game is half mental. Yeah. That's Yogi Berra. Oh, you've evoked one of my heroes.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more of Star Talks, Playing with Science. And Ron Darling. Yes. All right. We're back, Playing with Science. And our special guest today, Mets star Ron Darling. Yes.

Pitcher. Pitcher in the 1986 World Series. We handed him a ball earlier, and it has not left his hand since. I know, I know. I would have just put it down and went on with my life. But you can't put down a baseball. You know what it is? I'm just manipulating it and feeling it and thinking to myself,

the ball is different than when I played. The seams are not as high as when I played. They always say this. It's not like it used to be. No, no, no. The game, we played in the snow uphill. No, I'm saying it probably had an advantage when I played. The always say this. It's not like it used to be. No, no, no. The game, we played in the snow uphill. No, I'm saying it probably had an advantage when I played. The ball's slicker.

It looks a little slicker. It does. And in the day, you used to be able to pick at the seams and make them rise. And if you picked at them enough while you're waiting for the sign from your catcher, you can make it rise so you've got a little more grip on the ball.

Can't do that. And does that also give you a little more action? Gives you a little more action. It's probably not 100% legal, but that's kind of what you do. 92.5% legal. So action, well, it would give you action that you then wouldn't necessarily be able to predict, but that's okay because then neither can the batter. But you know what count it is.

So if it's a 3-2 pitch where you need to throw a strike, you wouldn't pick at the seams to get more action. But if it was an 0-2 pitch where you need to throw a strike, you wouldn't pick at the seams to get more action. But if it was an 0-2 pitch where you needed the guy to swing at a ball in the dirt, you want as much action as you can get. You guys are so evil. Look at that. Man. See, what you've just witnessed here with Ron holding that ball and I'm a former professional

soccer player and the most powerful thing in the world is a soccer ball in an empty room. Am I right with that? That's the most powerful most he can't let it go because it just evokes so much of what's been wonderful in your life so you just when he's sitting there holding it it's not like a comforter it's just something's going off mentally isn't it you're getting a little bit of something from years gone by it's only having are you having flashbacks right now yeah because i'm right I'm reminded of all the 116 losses.

There's got to be at least some bad flashbacks in there. Exactly. You know what I was thinking when I was holding the ball? I was thinking that in my youth, my hands were thinner. My hands...

I shook your hand. You've got some pudgy hands right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I felt like my ability to manipulate the baseball felt a lot different than it does now. It feels like the ball kind of manipulates me. Oh, okay.

So these are nightmares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for another show, I guess. So let me ask you something. In your day, so baseball and maybe golf are the only sports where for many, in baseball, there are many positions where you can still have a pouch, a belly pouch, and you can still be good at what you're doing. That's not, maybe alignment in football, perhaps, but most other sports, you can't carry around that much body fat. All right. So I don't have a problem with that. What that says is you carry a skill that doesn't only emanate from your physical fitness.

And I get that. And as they say, Babe Ruth hits 714 home runs on beer and hot dogs, not on steroids. So I get that. But today, you know, there's so much physiology technology that goes into training. technology that goes into training. And has that made players better or just has that has, if that makes everybody better than no one really has an advantage anymore. And is there training you can do as a pitcher? Well, it certainly is. And it's really changed in my 30 years of playing and now, and now watching the game. Um, when I was a kid, you were told not to drink water during a workout. You were told not to lift weights.

That would hurt your arm. As a pitcher. As a pitcher. Pitchers were only told to do two things, throw and to run, and not to stop running. Did they also tell you to smoke cigarettes a lot? You know, it's funny. My generation of player, almost everyone

smoked. I mean, I didn't smoke, but almost all of the players that I played with smoked, and now I think nobody smokes, which is a good thing. I think it's like anything else. There's a third of the guys that are working out like you've never seen people work out. There's some of

the guys that sometimes work out, and then there's a third of the guys that are really doing nothing. But now they can monitor things like your oxygen uptake and measure your carbon dioxide exhalations and know exactly physiologically what's happening in your body. And they're athletes getting instructions that are so fine-tuned to their physical fitness. And I'm saying, okay, you're getting physically fit, but does that make you better at this sport? That's kind of what I'm asking. Yeah, I think over time...

Because there was... I'm going to keep interrupting. There was Michael Jordan at the top of his game. He goes to play baseball, and he's a 217 hitter or whatever it was. So just because you are at the top of your physical fitness doesn't mean jack. And I visit... Again, I'm still talking here. No, no, no.

I got to get this out of me. So I think I mentioned this on another episode. I love when MLB brings around their trucks and they celebrate the sport and you can buy baseballs and they have a pitching cage and this sort of thing. So I go there to see how fast I can throw the ball. I'm a physically fit guy, all right? I didn't play baseball, but I used to wrestle and I rode. I did stuff. And I got the ball.

I said, I got this. And they got the speedometer. What do you call it? The radar gun. The radar gun. Speedometer. Yeah, that'd be great if the ball had its own speedometer in it. And so I said, I got this.

And I threw the ball as hard as I could and it was like 78 miles an hour and that's like a slow pitch in your world and I thought to myself whoa you guys are doing something I don't even know about and I will never know about and so I just want that just I'm just want more props to what you guys do and how you do it if my fastest pitch is your slow ball. It's such a combination of things. In a wind-up, there's probably 25 things that have to all click and go right for you to be able to throw the ball 95 miles an hour. What's your top fastball? When I played, I threw 95, 96 miles an hour. By the end of my career, around 90 mark. But to give you an example, Dwight Gooden, one of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game for the Mets, used to throw 96 plus.

Darryl Strawberry, who was our right fielder, who had one of the best arms in the game, used to always kid him that he could easily throw over 90 miles per hour. We had a radar gun in Montreal. Darryl has had one of the greatest arms, got on the mound. He threw five pitches. None of them broke 80. Broke 80? None of them broke 80. Whoa.

So there's this. Is that the mechanics? Because you're standing still. You're on the mound. You have to do a windup. Whereas when you're in the outfield, grab a ball. You run. You throw at your entire body.

And you're not trying to hit the inch. You're trying to get in the cross-sectional area of the catcher's mitt, you know, as they can try to recover the ball. That's right. So I don't feel so bad if I threw the same speed as Darryl Strawberry. So you're good. Not quite, by the way. Don't start putting yourself in the strawberry field.

No, I said I knew it. He's putting himself in the strawberry field. That's correct, Tim. I barely broke 80, and I was the same with Dallas Stratford. You're good. You're good with him. Okay. Well, I feel better now.

Let's end the show. I didn't know that. Okay. I wouldn't take batting practice with him if I were you, but you've got to feel good the way you're throwing. Okay. So how much are pitchers today touched by technology? I think they're touched in every single way from pitch tracks and other things that track every single part of their mechanics, break down every single second of what they do, and they can tweak things

as they go along. I don't think everyone has the mental capacity to be able to take what they see and make it work for them in game. That's what practice does. It makes it motor. What's the term? It's acquired history. Yeah, it's just motor memory of something you practice. Muscle memory? Muscle memory.

I think that's what you were discussing when you said you're clocking 95. And someone with the abilities of Darryl Strawberry comes up. He hasn't had the history of going through that and the muscle memory of pitching. He's throwing in a different action. And it's not only that. If you're a guy who throws 95 and you're a pitcher, you're going to do that 100 times. Right. Not once, not twice.

And you develop the strength in particular key muscles. And that's what goes back to the point you were making about bespoke conditioning programs for certain positions in teams, no matter what. And just a point about you throwing it 100 times. Of course, if you're playing right field, you only have to throw that fast some of the time you get the ball because there's got to be a runner advancing to a base when the ball is hit to you.

He does it three times a game. You do it 100 times. That's right. And what you were talking about before and how to get your body ready for whatever position you play, it's different for pitchers than players, guys who play every day, is that my body has completely changed from when I was a kid. When I played for the Mets, I had a really big rear end, really big legs, because that's what you worked on in those days, because you were trying to transfer. You still have a big rear end. really big legs because that's what you worked on in those days because you were trying to transfer.

You still have a big rear end. Oh, I didn't know you were looking. Hey, Rob Darling got that. You were told Is that somehow You're trying to transfer Some of that Energy that you're Putting into your arm And trying to save that By transferring it To your legs And other places

Well of course A batter does that as well That's right If you look at A professional swing Not a little league swing The Of course

It's not just the bat That's turning It's the torso Is twisting And the back leg Is pushing And all of these muscles Conspire

so that you have peak speed and peak force right at the contact of the ball. And you pop the ball 400 feet. That's right. And then that doesn't even include trying to have a swing that the contact meets in such a way that you have backspin on the ball because the backspin is going to keep the ball in the air longer. I mean, that's how far the science can go. Right, right. When you talk about technology, let me ask you this.

You know, with respect to equipment, so in football, wide receivers are allowed to wear gloves. They're specially designed to help them catch the ball. Basically sticky gloves. Sticky gloves. Quarterbacks are able to wear gloves that are specially designed to help them throw the ball. Quarterbacks are able to wear gloves that are Especially designed to help them throw the ball Would you Be accepting

Of that kind of technology coming Into baseball? Well, I think there are pitchers out there that use The combination Of the rosin bag That's what that is I've heard a suntanning solution That they use

I used to use because I figured I got to a point where I knew where the ball was going. Confess to us here. And I'm confessing. No one's listening. I wore long sleeves, and I would wet the sleeves so that I always had the moisture from the sleeves. Now, I didn't want the moisture from my forehead or from the back of my neck because it wasn't always the same. But if I wet my sleeve I was always getting

About the same kind of moisture Is that why pictures Always touch in their body Yeah I never figured that out They're trying to get They're trying to get That's funny

Because you see them Lift up their cap And you know Oh they're trying to get Something on their finger Yeah yeah They actually And they're taking the moisture

Off their brow That's So what they're doing of course So now I don't know if they thought this through, if you get brow moisture put on the ball rather than pre-wet sleeves, then that moisture evaporates and you're left with a salt residue, and that could have an effect on the pitch.

I'm just saying. Wow. That's the case. Really, that's what I'm saying. You already knew this. No, I did not know that. Okay. But, you know, there was a pitcher in the day, some of our older guests,

I remember Gaylord Perry, Hall of Famer. He was known for cheating all the time. He wasn't a Yankee, was he? He threw, he was at some point, right? He used to throw a spitball, and the way the spitball was done, it's hard to show the people who were listening,

but most pitches are thrown with the seams or across the seams. If you wet your hands enough, a spitball was thrown with no seams, and instead of throwing it with this kind of action. With a 12 to 6 action. Yeah, you pinched it. And when it pinched, it came out with no spin. And hitters, when hitters see what they do when they stand in the box, their first thought is, is this ball going to hit me in the head? That's their first thought.

It's a good thought. Second thought is, it's not going to. Third thought is, does it have any spin? And the fourth thought is, where is it? Because I'm going to put the ball where I think the ball is going to be. Not where I know, but where I think the ball is going to be. And for most of us, by the time we have that fourth thought, the ball is already in the catcher's mitt.

That's right. Or it has hit you in the head. And you are dreaming the rest of that conversation. That's right. Let us put Ron Darling in 2017. Sure. And give him access. I'm going to put you at the peak of your game, sir.

Okay. Right at the right top. And give you access to every bit of technology that's available to Major League pitchers now. How much better is Ron Darling in 2017? More importantly, what technology would you want to take advantage of today? Yeah. Well, I think the technology of pitch tracks. I'd like to know how far my balls,

the baseball is traveling. I would like to see how far it's staying true in the strike zone, how much movement I do have to two inches or, and I think the other thing that I would like to know is this, the mathematical stats of each and every player and their tendencies yeah that to me wouldn't would be the greatest gift so if there's some if there's some code that tells you that that contains a lot of information about that one now generally you would rely on the catcher to know this that's why they're telling you what

pitch that's right so but if you knew it as well oh my gosh that'd be dangerous i'd like to know this. That's why they're telling you what pitch. That's right. But if you knew it as well, oh my gosh, that'd be dangerous. I'd like to know guy on third, less than two outs, their slugger is up, he swings at the first pitch 78% of the time. Wow.

That first pitch has got to be a good one then. Right, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much better would Ron Darling be in a percentage goal?

How many fewer games would you have lost? Only 115 losses. Do you think it's quantifiable? Would it make that much of a difference? Or would it be enough to give you the edge you require? I think it would make a huge difference if I had the knowledge that you could have today,

did not have before. So we've got to start to land in this plane. I want to ask you a quick sort of lightning round here. Okay. Who's the best batter you ever faced? Tony Gwynn. Really? Look at that.

Why? Nice. Why? He had 452 off me. I know the numbers. You probably know that to even more decimal places. That's right. 452.

That's like pie. But why was he the best? What made him that special? Any pitch, anywhere, he could hit. No way to pitch him. And there was no key to getting him out. Was it just you or did he read every other pitch? I think he won 12 batting titles or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just. Don't take it personally that he hit 452 on you. I don't want to say that. I want to hear the great man himself say that. That's what I was doing. Okay, another quick one. Since you know how to throw the ball, how come pitchers don't make better batters?

Oh, that's interesting. Pitchers don't make better batters because they're considered outliers on the team. No one really considers them part of the team. Very rarely do they get batting practice, especially in my day. So even though I was a good hitter in college, one of the best college hitters of my time, by the time I got to pro baseball, I was not even considered a part of the team. There's not even honing. There's no honing.

Honing is gone. So I went 15 years without taking any meaningful batting practice. Okay. Okay. And what did the Mets look like this year for the 2017 season? This is their year. Oh! Okay, and my last question before we wind this up.

In your book, Game 7, 1986, Failure and Trying from the Biggest Game of My Life, what's your takeaway or what's the takeaway you want the reader to get from that? What's the deepest thing you can share with us? Well, I think for most folks, when they read a sports book, it's about some great accomplishment that happens. For a professional pitcher, being allowed to pitch Game 7 of World Series is the greatest thrill you could ever have. But the takeaway on this book is I had that, and I failed. And why did I fail? And I think what happened is after the game was done and the Mets won, but after the game was done a couple of days later,

I said, you know, I was at the top of my game, did not give up an earned run in that series, and I got knocked out in the fourth inning. How did that happen? I thought organically, it would go away. 30 years later, it did not. And're still thinking about it. And that's why I wrote it. And as soon as it was finished, I have not thought about that game once since. So it helped. So it was either $150 on someone's couch, write a book, or bourbon, I guess. Only three choices I had. So the catharsis did wonders for you. It got me through that the process is is that

when you're playing professional sports the other guy is really trying to. Yeah. Happens. Wow. Yeah.

Very cool. Ron Darnley thanks for being on Playing With Science. This is a blast. My gosh. This is a blast. Of course you can find

Star Talk on Sirius XM Insight channel channel 121 I think that is. And we're on every day at 5 o'clock, I think. And playing with science, you can find it at StarTalkRadio.net. And if you support that, we will bring many more of it to you because sports is not only entertaining, but as we have come to know, it can bring some of life's wisdom to us as well. So, Gary. Yes, sir.

We're good here. We are good. And I'd like to thank everybody that is in this room right now. And if you have enjoyed what we've done today with Ron Darling, and you'd like to explore other sports as well as baseball, please check out Playing With Science. We'd love to have you as listeners. And Chuck, final word. Hey, this is great, and you guys are great, and make sure that you do spread the word. Don't just check out Playing With Science

because what we're trying to do is bring science and sports together as the most awesome mashup ever. Hey, you got sports in my science. Hey, you got science in my sports. It's like the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of sports. For anyone over 50 who might remember that TV commercial.

Okay. But the fact is, you know, this is a very unique show. And so we need the support of the listeners. And we need you to actually help promote the show as well. That would really, really help us. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And we are signing off here at the SiriusXM Universe Headquarters in New York.