StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Slam Dunk Science (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 27, 2017

Playing with Science hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly are talking roundball from the TuneIn stage at SXSW with former NBA All-Star Caron Butler, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, and actor Michael Rapaport, the co-host of Two-Man-Weave on TuneIn.Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:TuneIn: http://tunein.com/radio/Playing-with-Science-p952100/iTunes Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceGooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/ Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. I'm Gary O'Reilly. Yes, thank you. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. And listen, for those of you who are not with us, the reason why you hear a live audience is because we are coming to you from TuneIn at South by Southwest, better known as South by Hungover. And we are here live to bring you the show. And those of you who are listening for the first time to Playing with Science on TuneIn, we should probably tell you what this show is. This show is under the StarTalk umbrella. And Neil deGrasse Tyson says this is where science and geeks collide, where jocks and geeks collide.

And, you know, somebody always loses in that collision. And I don't think I have to tell you who it is. But what we do is we take a sports player that's iconic, we break it down, and then we let the science spread out from there. And so today, we are talking about the science of the slam dunk. Yes, you can give it up for science of slam dunk. Yes, you can. And we'd like to give it up for Easy Tiger, who is our venue for the day.

Thank you so much for your hospitality. I think Chuck will also look at rebounds because one of our guests just might have an idea about how to rebound. Yeah, speaking of our guests, we have two very cool NBA enthusiasts. We have two very cool NBA enthusiasts. One is an enthusiast because he's a former All-Star. He is a former player. And when it comes to slam dunks, nobody knows how to put it down better than Karam Butler. Right here, please, ladies and gentlemen. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. And not to mention, and not forgetting rather, title winning player. Oh, yes, absolutely. So the guys bring to the top of the mountain and look down on all of us. Right. Next to me. Next to you. A man, Michael Rapoport.

Yes, actor extraordinaire and a guy who knows basketball in and out. And also has, Michael, your show is called Two Man Weave? Two Man Weave. Two Man Weave with Kenny Martin, right? Yep, yep. I'm glad to be here. I'm happy to be here. I'm a fan of The Doctor.

The Bronx is in the house. You can't ever forget that The Doctor's from the Bronx. That's right. Oh, that's right. And The Doctor that he is talking about is joining us from Skype and telling me one second, one second, as he walks away from the camera. Who dances this? Drama. Michael, let's go back to but what we're gonna do oh look he went got his

brown okay better better known okay okay so both those of you who do not have visual, Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson is our science guest today, and he is sitting here looking like Ice Cube. Ice Cube. He's looking like Ice Cube in Eazy-E. Had a baby. He's working it. It's so cool. But Neil is from the Boogie Down Bronx,

so he went and got his Bronx hat on, which is very cool. Neil, how you doing, buddy? Doing good. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah. OK. You know, like what would we like? Oh, who says no to you? Seriously, has that ever happened? Like, you know, to be clear, this is your show. You pulling me in when you need some stuff, but it's your show. Okay, right on. But, you know, I'm going to accept that. I'm just going to say, yes, you're right, even though we know you're not.

Okay, Neil, you're out of the Bronx. Do you have a basketball team that you prefer? Well, I'm old enough. Like, I was coming of age when the Knicks were winning the championship. Oh, you mean good, when they were good. You know, when they were winning. You know, it was Clyde Frazier. Wow.

Oh, wow. Dave DeBuscher. We had Willis Reed. We had Bill Bradley. Wow. And here's something interesting. Go on, man. Here's something interesting.

A friend of mine in high school was ball boy for the New York Knicks. And my feet were the same size as that of Walt Frazier. And Frazier had a Puma contract, and every game he would throw away his Pumas after only wearing them once, and my boy would go in, pull them out, and bring them home to me. So I had a whole set of Clyde Puma sneakers that I was able to wear at the time. That is crazy. Yo, man, that's crazy. That is crazy. Yo, man. That is crazy.

If you had saved just one pair, that would have been. You still got them? Are they on eBay? Uh-huh. I wore them. Good for you. Now, you're afflicted with the Knicks devotion, right? Yes.

I'm afflicted with the Knicks devotion, the Knicks pain, the Knicks heartache. They haven't won since then. You're not helping, by the way. You're not helping with that pain. He's suffering. Yeah, it's been a tough ride. I was three in 1973. So to go through the ups and downs and come close in the 90s

and then to be where we are now and to be where we are in the last 10, 12 years has been rough. If you're only three when they last, then you have no active memory of a championship at all in your life. I have no active memory of a championship. This is almost as serious as the Cubs, you know. We're at that point. It's almost that bad. And this ain't Chicago, doctor.

This is the New York Knicks, the epicenter. I mean, you grew up in the city. You know, I would love for you to do a scientific test on this. In my opinion, one of the main reasons why basketball will always be the city's game is because any mile radius in the five boroughs that you walk, you're going to come across a basketball court. It's part of the fabric and the architecture of New York City. You know, it's so much a part of what we see when we walk around any part of New York City.

That's true. Let me give you an example, okay? So I've known I wanted to be a scientist since I was nine years old, but in the playground, none of that mattered. All that could matter, if you could shoot, could you jump, did you have a handle on the ball? Right. And just, I can quantify how good I was. And on top of that,

he was on the court and kids was like, yo man, watch that guy. He actually stole Walt Frazier's sneakers. So the way you did it was if you're choosing sides for ten people and then two people who are choosing the sides, in a side of five, how quickly are you chosen? Or in a total of ten?

That's a measure of things. I've chosen maybe fourth. Not first, not second, but about fourth. That's pretty good. It depends on how many people was out there, though. Ten. Well, so... If it was only ten people out there and you was chosen fourth on the back end of the fourth, that means you was chosen eight out of ten.

Karen, you never got chosen. I'll be honest. I was usually top two to be chosen. This is what I'm guessing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know this feeling. Yeah, yeah. So, like, getting chose fourth...

But I'm trying to make a different point. Okay. That I've chosen like fourth or fifth and then I spent a year in Massachusetts in a suburb of Boston, okay? And there's a pickup game there and I go to jump and I jump to block someone's shot and I end up blocking it with my elbow, I'm thinking they're going to jump higher than they actually did.

It was... So my average Bronx talent blew everybody else outside of the Bronx. You translated it on the road. Right. It was something in the water in the Bronx. Yeah, maybe.

So Kenyon was top two. You got chosen fourth. Whenever I played, they were like, you're going to be the coach. So I'm just letting you know, you guys don't know pain. That's real pain. So, Karen, growing up, we heard about Neil, the Bronx, and his desperation at fourth. Growing up, we heard about Neil, the Bronx, and his desperation at force.

When did you know that you had something that took you out of that environment and you could be on a projection to the very top? Man, just playing on the hardwoods, in the rec centers, in the Midwest, playing in the community centers and being chosen in the top three all the time on a consistent basis and just, you know, playing and getting that bump. You know, once I, you know, graduated to the middle floor at the detention centers and playing with the grown men, you know, being a teenager out there with grown men, I knew that I graduated and that I had a future in this thing.

Because if I can get these moves off at a good pace, I knew that I could play on a top level at some point. And, you know, this is, you know, grown men that's, you know, coming at you, hitting you with everything, elbowing you. Yeah, they don't care that you're a kid, right? Yeah, yeah. What foul? Right, yeah. What foul?

That ain't no foul. You know what I mean? No blood, no foul. No, no blood, no foul. So I learned quickly the rules of engagement out there on the basketball court. Do you look back at that and think that's where my competitiveness on court as a pro came from? That test there, that hardening of character? Absolutely.

That's where I was extremely tested, you know, in the battlefield of, you know, the rec centers and stuff like that. And now that's something I think that's missing because, you know, now with AAU basketball and a lot of, you know, you know, trainers and stuff that kind of took that bridge away from development. You know, now you got guys that's, you know, dribbling around cones and things like that and dribbling under ropes. You know, chairs don't move. You know, combs don't stab back at you at the basketball, and they don't teach you, like, you know, the will and how to fight through adversity. So it's different. Has the game gone soft? It has.

I call it the skinny genification of the NBA, Karan. You do. I like that. I like that. The skinny genification of the NBA, Karan. The skinny genification. I like that. I like that. The skinny genification of the NBA. Anyone else out there feel the skinny genification? I'll get there in the end. No?

Yes, maybe? Yeah. All right. If you brought your game now, how long are you going to stay on court? I mean, it's different because it's so physical. You know, I mean, I played in an era where hand checking was still, you know, plausible. And, you know, you saw a guy like Anthony Mason guard Michael Jordan, you know,

because he can hold him by the hip and just kind of guide him where he wanted him to go. Now, this is the black cat. This is the greatest player of all time. And he's able to hold him by the wayside and guide him. You know, now, you know, you touch a guy or you blow on him or gargle with Listerine as a foul.

That's bad, though. Foul, you. Talking about the science of sports, explain the hand-checking and the not hand-checking in terms of a science. With an athlete like Jordan or Kobe or an Iverson, the hand-check checking could do what?

Explain that to the layman layman. In scientific terms, though, Karan. All right, so if you're trying to give a guy area and you give him momentum, even like a guy like LeBron, it helped his game so much because he's an impact player. He's a guy that's always going downhill. So if LeBron's going downhill and attacking the basket, if you touch him, that's a foul.

You know, it's contact. Back in the day, you know, it's contact throughout the duration of the game. You know, 90-plus feet, you can hold, you can grab, you can touch, you can be physical. It's never a foul. But now any type of contact, you know, and it decreases the process, it's a foul. So, in other words, the legislation has gone in a direction that allows more baskets, more points, more entertainment. Well, that's what it's about, right?

That's what the league wants. The league wants higher scoring games because that's more exciting to the consumer. You saw that in the All-Star game, but it was too, it was too, it was too much. Yup. And now they got to, you know, change some rules because of that,

because it was just like, it was too out there. All right. Did you wait, wait, are you saying, are you saying that if you're not touching each other as much, it means you can make your basket with higher percentage with a higher

percentage shots. Absolutely. It's like, it's like being naked in the gym. It's like, you know, you sitting around in the gym and you shoot, you shooting shooting shots without no defense you should be able to make those shots that's what the all-star game was that's called being also wait wait that's called being naked

in the gym so that you're more likely to try it no one's guarding you get naked he asked about right the the about the three-point shot in terms of the the game is so open, you know, Dr. Tyson, for me as a fan, and I'm just a fan, and I love from the fan's point of view versus the actual doer like Karan, but in my opinion, the game has gotten too spread out where it's too offensive-minded, where the offense can run too free,

where you have guys that are 7'3", who if you can't shoot a three-pointer and you're 7', and you just talked about being in the Bronx and then going to Boston, but, like, when you're a kid and you're 6'9", and you're the biggest kid, you're near the paint. Now, if you're 7' and you can't shoot a three-pointer, who would have thought that seven-footers that had to be, not, you know, it's's beneficial it had to be part of your arsenal that if you're seven feet you need to be able to shoot three pointers the game has changed so drastically so fast and i feel like as a fan as a consumer as someone who loves the game

that i think it's going to alienate fans and i think there needs to come with a happy medium where there has to be some sort of you know defensive where the defense can live where you can thrive other than in the playoffs. That's funny because we did a show with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and he told Neil that he only made one three-pointer in his entire career. Yeah. His entire career, 20-plus thousand points, and only one three-pointer did he make.

This is the all-time leading scorer in NBA history that made one three-pointer. Now the traditional big is out the game. You know, Yao Ming would be a stretch five now. Can you imagine that? Yao Ming, Shaq would be stretch fives. That's crazy. They would tell him to spot up at the three-point line and get ready to hit a spot-up shot. What would they do with Shaq now?

Shaq would have to be able to bring it out a little further, but he's so powerful. Yeah, but they would want him to space out because he would clog up the lanes because everybody needs that space to drive in gaps. That's crazy. Imagine that. But doesn't it also mean... Wait, wait, wait.

I got to make a point. If you're given that much room, then gone are the acrobatic maneuvers to shoot even in spite of people who are up in your face. I think the game is going perimeter oriented. You know, now, and you know, the more post up you have, you know, that means that it's not no area for guys to drive or whatever the case may be. So you're not going to have guys sitting in the paint posting up. And doctor, I think the acrobatic moves.

posting up. And doctor, I think the acrobatic moves, I think that's one of the things that is beneficial to the fan is that you do get a lot of that because guys could just take off at any point and go airborne because they're not, there's not that, that bump. There's not that action. There's not that nineties Pistons, nineties, uh, New York Knicks, eighties, you know, bad boys, Piston seems so that those kinds of teams will never thrive. They'll actually never be created again. You can't win like that because the game, you just can't play basketball like that anymore. You see a team trying to bring it back, though. You see the Pelicans trying to play with two bigs and Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins.

So, you know, they're trying to bring the old school game back, and hopefully that works. The problem is they're named the Pelicans. Right. Once again, Chuck, you've trying to bring the old school game back, and hopefully that works. The problem is they're named the Pelicans. Right. Once again, Chuck, you've got to get over this. So I'm just going to ask you, because we've got the good doctor with us, were you conscious of any of the science behind your forward play, your slam dunks when you were playing? No, I was just playing, you know, just playing out of motion,

playing off of, you know, just trying to, you know, get to the paint, get to the basket, put it in the hole, you know, put on for my city, put on for my family and, you know, try to make a better living for ourselves. So I knew I had a talent. I tried to tap into it. I found my niche and I just tried to make the best out of the opportunity. I never thought of a science behind it, not until I played with a mad scientist like Kobe Bryant, you know, where I developed like a different type of, you know, skill set and a component to, you know, my education of the game. You know, I started attacking it a little differently. So is there, Dr. Tyson, it doesn't seem to be, and maybe you can find some science in there for me,

but I know there's got to be a science behind a shot, okay? Physics behind a shot in the arc and all that, which you can explain. Well, we talked about that with Kareem because his sky hook had such a high percentage shot. And if the ball is coming down towards the rim, then the higher the angle it approaches the rim, then the bigger is the surface area through which it's passing. If you're coming at it at this kind of angle, then the range of error in your shot has to be narrowed in order for it to still go in. That's my point. So a higher shot coming down simply has a higher chance of

going in than one that's lower. So, but if you, if your shots are razor sharp, then you don't need this more latitude to make the shot. You can do it in a narrower, an, a narrower lane, so to speak. So, um, because the rim is actually much bigger than the ball itself. If you, you know, you know, when you're down below it, you're not thinking that. But if you take the ball and put it in the rim, there's like a lot of extra area there. And so if this ball had just fallen from the sky, the path of maximum surface area to pass it would be vertically down. And, of course, a slam dunk goes vertically down.

Right. But you do see people miss slam dunks. Because we're human. Yeah. Well, yeah. Karan, you ever miss a slam dunk? Absolutely. They're particularly embarrassing, actually.

The most embarrassing thing to miss, I think. That's just me. Right. You can't leave on a miss. You know, you got to try to make it up at some point in the game. And, you know, I always found a way to do that. That's the worst feeling, though, in the world. Have 20,000 people watch you on a miss. You know, you got to try to make it up at some point in the game. And, you know, I always found a way to do that. That's the worst feeling, though, in the world. Have 20,000 people watch you miss a dunk.

Right. And it's going to be on the highlight, the blooper reel. You're going to hear it, and somebody's going to be like, come on, man. You know that's going to happen. Who mans this? Right. Who's mans this? All right.

We are going to take a break, so bear with us. The Good Doctor will return when we come back, as will everybody at the table. We'll talk more with Caron Butler and of course Michael Rapoport. We'll even talk rebounds I'm sure, and possibly get into a whole lot of other things like what's

in store for Caron now that he's finished playing. Stay tuned, we'll be back. Thank you to South by Southwest, thank you to Easy Tiger, and thank you so much for tuning in, for allowing us this chance to broadcast our show. And also thank you to Karan Butler and Michael Rappaport for

joining us. Thanks guys guys, for being here. Yeah, give it up, guys. You know, these people don't turn up every day in your life, right? No. How often do you get NBA champions to sit down and give you their thoughts? Anyone notice these? Yeah, I just did. Thank you for the gifts.

Yeah. People know you, don't you? People know you. Yes. For those of you who can't see the visual, a young lady just bought Caron Butler a giant fistful of straws. And I was like, that is the craziest gift I've ever seen anybody give. But what are they? McDonald's.

Yes. Oh, McDonald's straws specifically. Yes. You are a fan. You actually went to McDonald's and stole a bunch of straws and then came and gave them to us. So you are in receipt of stolen property, Caron Butler, right here. Well, I'm going to leave it right here then. All right.

Okay. Of course, we have the good Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. So please give it up. Yes, Neil. Yeah, he is a man who is in demand and we can't keep him waiting. He's been very patient with us. The good Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. So please give it up. Yes, Neil! Yeah, he is a man who is in demand, and we can't keep him waiting. He's been very patient with us.

So your career involved a lot of rebounding, right? You're a competitive man. Secret to good rebounding, as far as you're concerned. I would have to say, you know, angles, position. Position. And, you know, making contact and making contact. A lot of people get caught birdwatching. What I mean by birdwatching is when the ball go up,

you're just staring at the ball and not looking at the position and where you're at and not understanding where the opponent is at and not making that contact before you try to retrieve the ball. When you got a good feel of the game, you kind of know how it's going to, you know, a good bounce, a bad bounce,

or whatever just because you've seen a lot of, you know, flat shots, a lot of high arc shots and different things like that. So that kind of helps you. So who do you say is the best rebounder in the game today, Karan? I won't go back. I don't want to go back in time because then we got to, you know, but I want to talk about who's playing right now. Who's the best rebounder in the game today?

It's funny, and, you know, a lot of people may – I would have to say Russell Westbrook. What? Okay. Yeah. That's a weird – well, let me tell you something. So here's the cool thing about Karan. He has some unorthodox opinions, but when he explains, I gotta tell you, the guy, he makes such a convincing case, and we'll get into the greatest

of all time, that not, he told me who the greatest player of all time was, and I asked him about somebody else, he was like, not even in the conversation. Not even in the conversation. Then he proceeded to prove to me why. Now, why Russell? Because people are not looking at Russell like he's the best rebounder in the game. They're looking at him like he's Russell Westbrook. He's a prolific scorer. And that's

why it's so amazing because he's a guard. Right. And he's short. And he's short. So he's short. He's a guard. Time's short. Russell Westbrook has got to be... Russell Westbrook is 6'4 at best, right? Yeah, he's 6'4 he's short. He's a guard. Time's short. Well, Russell Westbrook has got to be, Russell Westbrook is 6'4 at best, right? Yeah. He's 6'4. He probably listed at 6'5, 6'6. I'm 6'5.

Right. So he's not as big as him. Tiny little man. Yeah. And he's usually on the opposing end like he probably getting like four to five offensive rebounds a game. Okay. He's averaging 30 plus points, 10 plus rebounds, and 10 plus assists a game. Gotcha. At the averaging 30-plus points, 10-plus rebounds, and 10-plus assists a game. Gotcha.

At the guard position, and he's usually playing on the perimeter. So if you look at that, and we have this thing called chalk talks before every game. Okay. You circle Russell Westbrook, hot player, MVP candidate, all these things. So you prepare for him, and he's still able to go out there on a consistent basis, average a triple-double, do something that I haven't seen in my lifetime,

and rebound the ball at an amazing clip. That's amazing. You know, he's down there with the bigs. He's understanding where the ball is going to come off the rim. So he's playing a position game, like you said. Yeah, he's doing it all. He is playing the perfect position game. He's doing it all.

He's doing it all. He's doing it all. He's doing it all. He's doing it all. Okay, so Dr. Tyson. Dr. Tyson, having heard what just remind me this is the this is the statistic that they call the triple double isn't that correct yeah uh you have double digits and rebounds uh points and assists and assists right and so that's it

that's a that's a fascinating elite club of people who consistently get triple doubles is that a fair statement? Yes. I just love the fact that you are still wearing that Bronx hat and you look like the notorious NDT. It's awesome. Go ahead. Where do you see the science in that?

I'm the rapper. I'm MC Squared. Alright. In the house. You caught me off guard with that one. So where do you see the science for a rebounder who's sub 6'6"? Well, of course, I mean, so here's the thing. We've learned that humans are very good at our intuition of what gravity does. Okay?

You see this in baseball where someone hits and the ball is going to land where you're not and so they run at a speed so that it hits their glove exactly when their glove gets to the ball and they're not doing calculations even though I can calculate exactly what that is with a rebound there's the same thing the ball goes up in the old days there were more shots off of glass so the rebound would have to put in the reflection off the backboard. There was more of that. And it seems to me in those days, calculating or knowing where the rebound would go would be simpler than today, where everyone is going for the rim. I mean, I think it's a little bit of an ego thing that it's a kind of a lesser professional shot if you got to do it off the glass than if you go straight into the net. Well, are you asking Karan that?

Yeah, yeah. Are you saying that the Swiss shot is what everybody goes for as opposed to off the glass? I think now everybody is trying to make the shot. You know, back in the day, it was the Cooley High days when everybody was trying to bank it in and, you know, you smooth-jaw turkey. But now it's, you know, everybody's just trying to make the shot and shoot it at the back of the rim and just play the right way. Because the thing is, if you do it off of glass,

then you get to throw a higher shot, and then the glass banks it back to the rim. It's a higher shot than it would need to be if you went straight for the rim. And here's my point. In the old days, before there was a three-point shot, and even before dunking was really a big thing, teams routinely scored more than 100 points. So something happened over those decades.

We introduced a three-point shot. The total scoring drops. People don't want to hit off the glass. The scoring drops. I'm intrigued by that, but let me just finish the point about the glass. So obviously, there's something called Lenz's Law in optics where it said the angle of incidence

equals the angle of reflection. Okay. So light coming in at an angle will come off at exactly the same angle. And you can calculate with this. If you tip the mirror, then this tips with it. If you lower the angle of the incident light, then this part comes out at a lower angle. So that also applies to reflections of balls, balls okay except the arc of gravity now adds to that so we can calculate this but to a professional player who's been playing your

whole life pickup games professional games you just know where that ball is going to go if it's bouncing off the glass what i think you don't know as well is that if they're shooting for the rim, the rim, it could like triple bounce on the rim and go where you're not. So what are you invoking if you know it's going to the rim and not to the glass? You don't really know. You just have to be sort of quick at that point.

Isn't that right? Absolutely, and that's something that he is. He's very quick. He possesses a speed like I've never seen before in a player. He has a high motor. And that's why he's special, and that's why he's my MVP candidate. Wow, Russell Westbrook, wow. You heard it here.

That's a big statement, man. Michael, where are you going to go? What does that mean, though, that it's possible to be – let me just invent something here. possible to be let me just invent something here if you're too short merely six one let's say or six two your arms aren't long enough to do damage wherever the ball is going to land okay because your wingspan is the area through which you in principle can grab a rebound if you're too tall your hand can reach far but it's not going to get there fast enough so might there be an ideal height your height and arm width where you can still have the speed and still have the wingspan where anything in your zone is yours i believe that

height is eight feet six inches tall i'm just saying just saying. Just saying. One of the factors, Karan, also, you know, you could attest to this with being a great rebounder, which is, I mean, I would love to hear your take on this, Doctor, in terms of a scientific thing, which is I don't think it's something you could teach, but all the great rebounders, whether it was Moses Malone or Tristan Thompson or Russell Westbrook or whoever they've been throughout the years. Well, the worm.

We get the worm, Mr. Rodman. It was good. It's the tenacity, the dedication to the rebounding, and just really that tenacity. Because rebounding, I mean, obviously. Rebounding is dirty work. It's dirty work. And you want to have the athleticism, but at the end of the day,

when you're focused on that rebound and you're not willing to give up, I don't know if there's any science to equate that. That's something you're born with. That's something like it's an internal thing. That's got to be grit. You've got to have edge. You've got to not be afraid to get banged up. A lot of people don't want to sacrifice their body like that

on a night-to-night, day-to-day basis. Yeah, so there's a scientific word for that. I'm with those people. It's being nasty. Yeah. What's the scientific term for that, Doc? Is that something you're born with, right? You've got to have a little crazy to you, too. Yeah, you've got to want it.

You know, one of my great fears, and I'm just a wuss about this, when I was down in the paint and there's a rebound about to come, if there's someone ready to jump, my big fear was that they would jump up and their head would then hit me in the chin, and then I'd bust out my teeth and my tongue just because they're being aggressive trying to get the ball. So this is where you're saying you can't love your

body when you're down there. Right on. True. Yes. See, I love my body way too much. I don't know if you've seen it lately, but... Okay, is there a hierarchy for the players in terms of rebound or block? Say if you're blocking a shot midair, you're going to feel a lot happier than if you just took the rebound?

Man, that shot blocking is something else. You know, I got a different type of respect for, you know, guys that can time and calculate, you know, somebody coming into the paint and just, you know, not only blocking the shot but keeping it in play. You know, like a Bill Russell. Like I've seen a lot of guys toss a shot, go out of bounds, or toss it and don't keep it in play.

But if you can toss it and keep it in play and lead to a transition basket, which is not many in this game. So if you get, you know, anywhere from 15 to 20 transition baskets, nine times out of ten, your team's going to win that game. And if you can shot block three or four of those, that leads to eight points or a foul in transition or open court foul. That's great for your team. So that's changing the game right there.

You make a very important point there because clearly if you, because, you know, back where I up if you if you rejected a shot that just looked bad and everyone laughed and even in the nba if you rejected it goes four rows back in the stands that feels good but you're right it's not a good defensive move at the end of the day you want to keep it in play or at least direct it to somebody who matters. But what I like is the shot blocking that goes where someone is jumping, but they haven't released the ball yet, and you're jumping with them, so now you both have shared arcs through space, basically, and you still have to monitor what is the hand doing is going to come under or over, and then you reach out and block it.

So there's a lot of sort of shared matched trajectory in order to make that happen. Cool. So as a fan, Michael, the game and sport in general has become much more technical. The science and understanding from the medical aspect of it, from the sabermetrics, all of the statistical big data that comes in. As a fan, do you think, I don't like this, or this is brilliant, bring it on? Where do you sit? I think the stats, in terms of the way we see it on the ticker, on the sports networks, has gotten too much.

The analytics, you know, every year they're creating new stats. The offensive production with the blah, blah, blah, and the blah, blah, blah. All that stuff is interesting. creating new stats, the offensive production with the blah, blah, blah, and the blah, blah, blah. All that stuff is interesting, but at the end of the day, as a fan, I want to hear your opinions. I want to hear your thoughts. And what's like my host of the two-man weave on NBA on TuneIn, the eye test. You know what I mean? The intangibles, the tenacity, the toughness, the things that you can't put in a stat.

There's no scientific evidence of it. So I think that the stats are great. I think they're helpful. You know, we all saw Moneyball, and basketball has their version of Moneyball. And, you know, fantasy football is a stat-driven thing. But at the end of the day, and I'm a fantasy football champion. If you say so yourself, yes.

In all modesty, people. You can look me up. The doctor will tell you, look me up. You Google me. I'm a champion. Even with the stats of fantasy football,

at the end of the day, you have to go with your gut. Yeah. You know, they could say, well, this guy, this guy,

but you got to go. I just feel like this guy versus that team and his loss the week before is going to help us win that game. Karen, as your career progressed, did the technology get more and more and more in terms of the input, in terms of how they monitor you in training? And in terms of your coaches and how you're coached. Yeah. Did you see more technology come into the game, or was it more traditional? It was traditional until like 2000, I would have to say 11, 2010, somewhere in there,

where analytics and things like that start getting tossed around more. So you start seeing people that had basketball backgrounds, you know, kind of that had a lot of equity in the game that kind of helped build this organization and this franchise as to what they are today, you know, out of it. So you take the basketball experience out and then now you put these tech heads in, which is not a bad thing. But at the same time, it takes away from the realness of, you know, what it is. At the same time, it takes away from the realness of what it is.

But suppose I analyze that in these sections of the court, you are a 20% shooter. In these other sections of the court, you're a 50% shooter. Shouldn't you listen to me when I tell you that? I will listen to you. You know what I mean? But at the same time, I will also listen to a Latrell Sprewell that actually played and been through it. I will actually listen to a guy that played on the back-to-back that know how my body and my temperament is. I will listen to a guy that, you know, missed the shot in the big game

with 30,000 saying, what the hell wrong with you in that moment? Or, you know, playing under a dysfunctional organization. You know, so they understand all the components. But, you know, sometimes. So you say it's you know, so they understand all the components. But, you know, sometimes. So you say it's more than just. It's not just numbers. It's more than just the numbers. Yeah.

It's not just being able to break down percentages that, along with that, are all these other factors that are going and playing on your mind, your psyche, while you're actually in the act of whatever it is that you're doing, whether it's shooting or rebounding or whatever. Absolutely. Wow. Wait, wait. Michael, you said fantasy football, you're a champion.

Is that right? Yes, true. You know you are putting every possible scientific analytic you can get your hands on into doing that, aren't you? Absolutely. Totally. Totally. But at the end of the day, absolutely. Fantasy sports and fantasy football.

That is what it is. If you have more information, you will have an advantage. Yes, but when you get down to it, if you have, let's say, an Aaron Rodgers and a Tom Brady. Okay. So you have the two of the greats. It's usually not these bigger players you have, but let's say you have the two greats and you just feel like. I'm going with Brady. But you just feel like in terms of the week before, somebody has something.

The crowd is slapping me right now. They're making air slaps to me right now. Sorry, Mike. That's not the first time. Keep going. No, I mean, at a certain point, you're going to make a gut decision. And that gut decision is not something that the stats could tell you. And it's not always going to win.

It's not always going to lead you right the way. But I'd rather at the end of the day, if both guys are, you know, four-star guys, at a certain point, you've got to make your gut decision, and sometimes that wins, sometimes it doesn't win. I mean, even with fantasy, it's obviously fantasy, but I think, you know, just in terms of the analytics of it all, I think like Karan said, I think that there's certain things you can't factor in, and the numbers are great, and the information is great, but, you know, my knee hurting, and I'm not telling the press has something to do with it and and you know i i had a a a tweaked bowel movement the day before doctor these are things you can't equate tmi yeah no no

that's very good no that's real stuff that's the first thing i asked anybody i'm like before i put you on this team how was your bowel movement yesterday? Exactly. All right. On that note, we are. All right. Doctor, we're going to take a commercial break. You can analyze all you like. But as Karan said and as Michael said, there are intangibles that you do not touch on. And as Chuck alluded to, there's stuff you don't really want to know.

Right. We're going to take that break. When we come back, we'll talk about what it takes to be a great NBA player, physically and mentally. And of course, we'll do it all here on Playing With Science. Stick around, we'll be back shortly. Thank you.