StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - The Psychology of Extreme Sports (Repeat)

Episode Date: August 30, 2018

Go to the extremes with hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly as they investigate the psychology of the extreme sports athlete with adventure journalist Jim Clash, neuroscientist Heather Berlin, and extreme sport psychologist Eric Brymer. Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Please subscribe to our channels on:Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360 TuneIn: https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Playing-with-Science-p952100/ GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjq SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-science Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-science NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/the-psychology-of-extreme-sports-playing-with-science-repeat/Photo Credit: gregepperson/iStock. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly and I'm Chuck Nice and this is Playing With Science. Yes there are those of us who like a quiet life, those of us who live vicariously and then there are those of us who seem to have an unhealthy lack of fear. And that's exactly where we are headed. The outer limits and extreme sports. Yeah. And who better to tell us what it's like to fly at Mach 2.6, be shot on purpose and go swimming without a wetsuit at the North Pole. That man is here with us,

and that man is none other than Jim Clash. I like the way it sounds. Jim Clash. Oh, no, that's Marvel hero. That's not all, yes. And helping us to understand what drives someone like Jim. We'll also hear later on from neuroscientist Heather Berlin and from extreme sports psychologist Dr. Eric Breimer.

Yes, but joining us right now, right here in studio, as I said, adventurer Jim Clash. Ta-da! Whoa! Jim, what's happening, buddy? How are you? Thanks, Doug. Thanks, Gary. You guys have so much energy, I feel like I have to match you. Oh, listen, man. I mean, Jim You guys have so much energy. I feel like I have to match you. Oh, listen, man. It's a kind of, I mean, Jim Clash sounds a little bit James Bond.

Yeah, it's such a real name. Because for a man who is truly an adventurer, to have the name Jim Clash really sounds like it's kind of a stage name. You know, I've been asked that question many times, and the answer is yes. That's my real name. My parents' surname was Clash. That's's fabulous i'm lucky they knew it they knew what they knew they knew what you were destined for it's quite apparently it's quite a rare english name from medieval times of east london so uh yeah good for you very cool very right you're a long-time journalist uh you've been

working with forbes for some time rather than to carbon date you. We'll just go with some time. A long time. Yeah. But you're into the adventure. I mean, we listed a couple of things there. You've flown in a MiG-25 to the edge of space at 2.6 times the speed of sound.

Yeah. Wow. Right there. Okay, that right there. That'll do. That's a show. And thank you. Thank you. Okay. That right there. That'll do. That's a show. And thank you. Thank you.

Good night. Thank you. That's our show. Swimming without a wetsuit at the North Pole. Okay. But you then went and skied to the South Pole. Yeah, I've skied to the South Pole. Yeah.

That was a lot tougher than swimming at the North Pole. I mean, without stating the obvious, it's a very different place altogether. It is. It is. All right. Let's go back to the mid 2.5, flying at 2.5 times the speed of sound. Yeah.

All right, being in a mid jet. First of all, how does that come about? Secondly, what the hell was that like? I mean, is it better than sex? Tell the truth. No. Thank God. Oh, thank you, God.

Because it looks like it is. Anyone else surprised that we went there? Really? So anyway, go ahead. Jim, how did that come about? Seriously. I mean, that's a crazy thing to be able to do. I mean, who do you know?

Well, at the time, I was working on a big story about space tourism. And this was in the late 90s. And you could actually fly for a fee in a MiG-25 Foxbat up to 84,000 feet above the earth. Oh, that was the old Clint Eastwood movie, wasn't it? Was it that Firefox, that kind of thing? Yeah. And you're literally, I can tell you, you know, Forbes paid for it. It was part of an adventure story for them. We got a reduced rate versus what the commercial rate is. But the actual flight was a life-changing experience for me because when you get up to 84,000 feet, you can see the curvature of the earth. You can see the atmosphere hanging over the earth.

And you can literally see the blackness of space. Wow. And this MiG-25 flight is the reason I want to go into space. Ah, which brings us to the next thing now that you might as well segue into it. You actually own a ticket for Virgin Galactic's space tourism. Chuck and I were trying to sort of like tease you into handing it over. Yeah, man. Naming your price.

But you're holding on tight. So you see the blackness of space. You see the tentative nature of our planet because you're looking at the atmosphere and it's very, very evident that this is, you know, a small covering

that coats our Earth and keeps us from this vastness that we are traveling in called space. And then you say, hey, I think I'll go there. One thing I have to say about what you just said about the atmosphere is when you get up there, it is like the skin on an apple. It's incredibly thin, and you realize that that's the only thing protecting us, and you realize we don't want to screw it up. now you haven't always done that sort of scale of things you've sort of done things

like figure skate with sasha our friend sasha cohen friend of the show and then stood in a ball ring and came out the worst for wear because of a ball that's true uh i've done some stupid things uh the bull is probably the dumbest thing the pBR asked me if I wanted to be a bullfighter, basically a rodeo clown. When the rider is thrown off a bull, he's vulnerable. So you want these guys to get the bull. Exactly. Dangerous, super dangerous. It is dangerous. And they asked me if I wanted to do it for a story in bed as a bullfighter.

And I said, OK. And I ended up with a well broken three ribs. Oh my. Yeah. Now did that happen because you were in the barrel and the bull hit the barrel and it went that far or did the bull hit you? No, no. What happened was the bull threw the rider and there were three of us, three bullfighters who had to distract him away from the rider. The rider ran out of the ring. And when the bull got to me, we locked eyes and I tried to run around him the way we had taught so that I could get him to go in a circle around me, but I didn't get behind the second horn. And he just took the horn, threw it into my back, broke my ribs, threw me up in the air about four feet and slammed me against the wall. And then he came in and we came in for

the gore. Yeah. And the other two got him away from me so i was lucky i was lucky somebody up there loves you yeah but that was the stupidest thing i think i've ever done in terms of the figure skating with sasha that was supposed to be a fun story you know forbes adventure goes figure skating with olympic silver medalist and i'm friends with sasha now um but at the time um the deal was i would take her out in a Lamborghini, and she would drive fast because she wanted to learn how to drive fast, which is something else I do. Yes. So she got the Lambo up to about 130 on the 405 in California.

So that was supposed to be the dangerous part of the story. The other part was she would teach me to figure skate. Right. So we went to the Alessio. Had you skated? No, I'd never been on skates in my life. Oh, my God, if this story ends up with you breaking three ribs, I'm going to die. No, I'm joking. We're going to laugh. so we went to the alicia had you skate no i'd never been on skates in my life oh my god if this story ends up with you breaking three ribs i'm gonna die no i'm joking we're gonna laugh

actually it's it's worse oh um good um she had me out on the ice and she was a very good teacher and i asked i want to learn how to do a simple spin and uh so she told me to to reach back as if i'm going to punch somebody and swing and you'll magically go around. So the first time I tried, I was clumsy and everything. She goes, no, you really have to commit yourself. So I swung my arm around and the next thing you know, I was in an ambulance. And I don't remember anything. My skates got caught up and I fell on my head on the ice.

Oh, my God. But you're here so I can laugh. Yeah, you can laugh now. At the time, ice is very unfor head on the ice. Oh, my God. But you're here, so I can laugh. Yeah, you can laugh now. At the time, ice is very unforgiving to the head. It's basically like pavement. It's as hard as pavement. And I'll tell you something. Coming out of that, I have this tremendous respect for figure skaters

because what they do, they make it look simple, but it's dangerous and it's difficult. I know. I saw I, Tonya, and I've got to tell you, my life is never going to be the same. That was more to do with the tutu and the sequins. But we did a show featuring Sasha and

Wait, we had the footage? Wait, somebody just told me in my ear, we had the footage of Jim? Oh my god, we do! Alright, so for those of you who are listening... Oh! A little too hard.

Oh! Oh my god! A little too hard. Oh! Oh my God! You kissed the ice. Oh, wait a minute. Who was that from Forbes magazine that put his head down just like, I've lost my greatest

adventure writer ever? Well, I remember poor Sasha. You know, again, I don't remember anything, but later on, you know, her mom told me that Sasha was really upset. You know, we made

lemonade with lemons. We've become very good friends. I was actually at the shoot where you guys did her recently on Playing With Science. We did the show featuring Sasha, and I've never been the biggest figure skating fan. What I did was I walked out of the studio and went, What I did was I walked out of the studio and went, unbelievable respect and understanding for not just the science and the physics, but for everything. The athleticism. The determination. Everything that goes into becoming.

It's a serious sport. I'd never taken it really that seriously as a sport. However, I came out of there with a totally different point of view. Yeah. Totally changed my approach to figure skating. however i came out of there with a totally different point of view yeah totally changed my approach to figure skating and and so when you know when when you say what you say i absolutely get it so forgive me i hate to uh to dwell on your pain jim however but that video oh my god so for those of you who because we were we didn't really explain what was happening jim was doing

what he said he was doing which was reaching back and trying to get the spin and get the momentum to do the spin. The thing is, when he wrapped his arm around his body, it left him in a position where he fell. And of course, your natural inclination when you fall is to put your arms out to break your fall. His arms were in such a position that he could not reach out for the ice to break his fall.

He goes down and goes down full force on his face. Oh yeah. Oh my God. It's, and listen, if you want to see it, you can go online or you can go to start talk all access.com and, and,

and look at it. But my God, man, have you ever been on skates since? Because that would have been my one and only time on skates. No, as a matter of fact, a couple weeks later, a package arrived at Forbes. And within the package was a skate. And it was a skate that they took off of my foot. And it was signed, Oh, Jim, you crazy adventure. What does not kill you makes you stronger.

Love, Sasha Cohen. Oh Jim you crazy adventure what does not kill you makes you stronger love Sasha Cohen I still have that skate in my office and reminds me of never going back out and skating. Yeah, man Okay, so you've you've driven Bugatti Veyrons at 200 plus 250 plus miles an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah What next what's all right space we get is the given What's what else what's the top three for an adventurer what's the top three bucket list i gotta do that dude for you and for everybody left well this is the problem something left i mean this is a problem you know i mean i've flown in an f-15 i've flown in the mig i've climbed the matterhorn i've uh been shot point blank with a 38 and that wasn't that that

wasn't the worst thing being shot with do we 38. Wait, do we have that video, guys? Because I gotta tell you. I'm thinking ice skating and being shot. Let me just say this, Jim. As a black man, I was watching you live my worst nightmare. Oh, jeez, Chuck. But at least

I had a high fashion ballistics garment on, which protected me. As long as it's high fashion, yeah. You saw the leather coat in the video. It's sold for $7,000 at Harrods. And a lot of big name people wear these things. You don't even know that they're ballistics clothing because they're made so high fashion. Now, here's the thing I want to know about that.

I don't know if we have this video, but even the audio from the video itself will be compelling. So let me just explain to people what we're talking about. Jim is with the manufacturer and you can see the workers in the background of the video constructing these garments. And Jim is standing there. Is that the owner of the company you were with that gentleman? Yes. Miguel Caballero, and he's the guy who shot me. Yes. So he's standing there with the owner, Miguel Caballero, and point blank people. I am not talking about like these videos that you see where a guy has a rifle or a gun from across the room. He is literally, he puts the gun like right in your solar plexus and pulls the trigger.

And I screamed. I screamed at the video. I swear. I was just like, oh, my God. But then I was like, oh, wait, Chuck, you just saw him last week. You know he's alive. But it is, first, I want to know, did you see somebody test this out, number one? And number two, what the frick is wrong with you?

Why would you let somebody shoot you a.5 range? And number three, I can frick is wrong with you? Why would you let somebody shoot you at point blank range? And number three, I can't remember all these questions. How much did it cost you to get insured? Okay, that's a good question. Insurance, did you see it work out before you did it? And what the hell would make you let somebody shoot you at point blank range? Okay, well, there's always an element of risk in these adventures. I try to minimize it. And I know that when I'm going to do a story, most of these companies, they don't want a journalist getting killed or hurt. So they take extra precautions.

I had seen people get shot on videos. He normally shoots his workers once in a while to get them motivated. That is motivation, by the way. What they're making, they better be right about making it, right? The thing I did, though, normally when he shoots somebody, is he puts an extra layer of Kevlar there so they don't feel anything. But I wanted to take the shot as you would with a jacket, no Kevlar. And he said he'd only done that one other time,

and he had broken the guy's ribs when he did it. So he said he was going to shoot me between my ribs and my hip in the fatty area. Solid area, yeah. And it made sense to me. I have to tell you, it hurt. It hurt a lot. It was like someone took a bullwhip and you got the very end of it, the burning sensation when it hit you. And then it was like a Mike Tyson punch.

Yeah, and by the way, when you were shot, immediately after you went like this, which I have the utmost respect for you because my reaction would have been like, okay that would have been my reaction. Your reaction was, it burns. And that's exactly how he says it. He says it just like this. He goes like this. It burns. Because he's got some British blood in him. Very understated. However, you then

lifted up your shirt and dude, it looked like somebody beat you with a baseball bat. There's like a huge divot in your torso. It got bigger over time, and I'd say I had that, maybe it got about this big, and I had that for a couple of weeks.

Did you get to keep the jacket? I did. Good. Seven grand. It has a little hole in it. The nicest thing was, though, he let me keep the bullet, which was pancaked inside the jacket. Nice.

The physics of that, I'm sure, is very interesting. Yeah. was though he let me keep the bullet which was pancaked inside the in the jacket nice um the physics of that i'm sure is very interesting yeah and um and uh the rosary that i wore around my neck when i when i took exactly apart from the fact that forbes say we'll pay you to do these crazy what we would consider this side of the studio crazy things where does your mind go is it like i can't wait or is it fear or do you go right i need to prepare i need to have a real firm grip on the science i need to have a real firm grip on how why what where particularly if you're going to go up in a mig if you're going to do these things at speed you'll be thinking tire pressures tire compounds reaction times what are the forces i mean if

you're doing 250 miles an hour, the G-force on you, you must be a G-force junkie, by the way, just how much of it do you get into and prepare for? I have to say, many people have asked me that question, and it's almost like an actor in a play. I feel like I am this actor. That's not really me getting in the car. That's not really me getting in the MIG, climbing the Matterhorn.

They say a lot of actors are very shy outside of being on the stage or whatever. And I think I'm a pretty normal, shy person. It's just that I put myself in that position. I'm an actor. I have to do a story. You're right. I prepare like hell for these things because you've got to be on. You've got to have that adrenaline going.

You've got to channel the fear, make it positive. But if you prepare and you know that you've done as much as you can, you're able to get through the fear. If you don't prepare, you're not sure what you're on. How do you sit there and say,

I'm going to get shot? Or how much does that bull weigh? Three, four, 400 pounds? No, no, it weighs about 2,000 pounds. Right, so I was making the point. So thank you. How do you prepare to swim in the North Pole? Because I got to tell you the truth.

I saw you do that. And I'm just like, no way I would do that. The shrinkage alone would scare me off. Seinfeld episode. i always talk about that i still think i have problems and that was 20 years ago 18 years ago so now to think what was your mechanism what what mechanism did you personally employ because it won't always work for the for the same you know for everybody some of it's peer pressure you go in you know that you've got to do a job there's a lot of people that are prepared for example the car. I did the 253 in the Bugatti Veyron.

I had spent four years working up to that. We had had canceled things because of weather, this and that. So I was really committed. The thing that scared me was when we did the preliminary runs, there was a professional driver in the right-hand seat. I was in the left-hand seat as the driver. When we went to do the top speed run, he wouldn't get in the car. And I said, why not?

And he goes, better one of us than both of us. Well, that instilled confidence. Thanks a lot, Dad. No, no, no. But as you said, you're pushing all the parts to the absolute limit. The tires expand. Everything in that car is pushed to its limit. If something's going to break, it's going to break then.

The other thing you've got to worry about is any animals coming across the track. A bird, if a bird flies over, it's probably going to go through the windshield. If you hit any kind of an animal, it throws you off kilter. There's no room for error. You're in a passenger car. A passenger car at that speed, no matter if I had a suit on suit on helmet it's not going to protect you you're toast yeah in a race car and i've driven those before you can survive a crash you see it all the time in the indy cars the cage the cage itself is designed to withstand that kind of sort of speeds what sort of distance are you covering per second

at in the bugatti i was i was doing a football field in a quarter per second. 200 miles an hour is a football field per second. So listen, we've got to take a big – just imagine that in one second, that distance. I know. That's amazing. So wait, we've got to take a break. We're going to be joined by Heather Berlin. But I want to know this from you because I believe this. You're either a speed guy or an experienced guy. The experienced guy is the climber, whether it's like, you know, rock climbing or Everest, you know, or, you know, standing on the precipice looking out going, wow, I've done this.

And the speed person is like the thrill, like, oh, yeah. Which one? Which one are you? I'm both because the thrill is the same in the end. When you're standing on top of, say, the Matterhorn or Aconcagua, Kilimanjaro, whatever, there's this tremendous feeling of I did that. I accomplished it. When you drive the top speed right afterwards, you're like, I did it. I did it safely.

I'm here. You do get more of a quick adrenaline rush when you're doing the 253 in the bugatti it's a lot more satisfying long term when you when you have to climb a mountain and it takes how long does it take you and i don't this is not a pun about mountain climbing how long does it take you to come down after events like that you know it depends um but there's always a come down and that's always a problem um interesting you know each time you do an adrenaline uh experience you've got to do get a little more adrenaline to get the same effect right and that's a problem with what you chase you you chase that's exactly why i don't um i used to have a little

ducati i no longer do because my wife made me sell it because it's a bike and like that's why i asked where you were because i'm a speed guy. Like for me. How fast did you go in the Ducati? Oh God, I think the fastest I ever did was like a buck 70. A buck 70 on a motorcycle? A buck 60 something. That's a lot scarier than 250 in a Bugatti. Oh, but let me tell you something.

It's, all I can tell you is this. It's not scary at all because it's the only time in my life where nothing, like the chatter, shut up. Like the chatter. Anybody who knows me can tell that I'm a little bit like squirrel. Like there's a little of that in me. Anybody who knows me can see that. That's the only time ever in my entire life where without trying the, all the chatter, silent,

just silent. And so, you know, it wasn't scary at all. I just, all right. But anyway, enough about me.

That's why I asked because the deal is if I climbed the mountain, when I got to the top, I would be like, oh crap, we got to, we got to go down. No, no,

no, but that is the thing. When you get to the top, for example, the Matterhorn, very scary climb took that is the thing. When you get to the top, for example, the Matterhorn, very scary climb, took us six hours. We rushed to get to the top. Coming down took me 10 hours. It's much more difficult coming down.

You've burned up all your energy. I mean, it's where 80% of the accidents. It tells you that you've consumed an awful lot of energy, expanded mentally, physically. You've got to be very sensible on the descent. And 80% of all fatalities and accidents happen on the descent. Wow! On that cheery note, we'll take that break.

Wow, what an adventure story with Jim Clash. That's right, Dr. Heather Berlin up next. Don't go away. Squirrel! Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science, and today we're all about extreme sports. Extreme!

We didn't just do that, did we? Sorry, we did. Right, still with us is adventurer, adventure writer, Jim Clash, a man who has a list of so many envious things on his list. He's a walking, fulfilled bucket list. Oh, he is. That's what Jim is. He is, yeah. Thank you, guys. I mean, I never think of myself that way, but sure, why not?

All the stuff that people dream of doing before they die, you actually do it while you're walking around living. So that's awesome. And? I don't know what I just said, because it'd be kind of hard to do it while you're dead in the ground, wouldn't it? I just like it that I'm still around. You do too.

How's that sound? Right. Introduce our next guest. And joining us. A friend of ours. Oh, yeah. Friend of the show and StarTalk All-Star and our resident neuroscientist, Dr. Heather Berlin is with us. Hello, Doc.

Hello. Hello. Hey. Good to have you with us. Okay, so, yeah, right, straight off, what's going on in his head? Yeah, we're going to pick apart Jim's brain right now. I don't know if there's anything in there. He's blown at 84,000 feet, a 2.6 Mach.

He's jumped into a barrel and got his ribs broken by a thousand pound ball. Done all sorts of things. Driven at 253 miles. Skied at the South Pole. You know, seen the blackness of space from the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. Jumped out of a plane. This guy's done everything. What is going on neurologically in the mind of somebody who did those things

and wants to go back and do other things? And keeps doing them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a few things. I mean, first is to say that not everybody who likes to take risks, there's not one sort of prescription in terms of what's happening in the brain. It can vary for different people.

So there are different types of risk-taking. Some do it because they're actually chronically compared to someone who, let's say, doesn't take risks, under-stimulated. And so they need more just to get the same feeling of excitement that we might get from, I don't know, driving in, driving in your car at 80 miles an hour or something for someone that might give them a little rush. Whereas for him, that might be nothing. And he needs more to get the same level of activation to feel the excitement. So that's actually, you have to kind of find out the personality of the person first and what drives them to then understand what the neural basis of that is. So I guess the question I'd have is, to your guess, are you doing these things because you're getting a high out of them? And when you do other things, you not feel that same level of excitement

that whereas other people might feel that? So Jim, that's to you, which is a question we did not ask you. Is there a high involved? And do you feel understimulated when you're not doing these things? The thing is, it's my job. I'm an adventure writer, so I go out and I do it. And as I said earlier, I'm an actor. I see myself as an actor getting in the car at 250 miles an hour or whatever. I don't think before I started doing this stuff that I was understimulated,

but the problem is the more you do it, the more the adrenaline rush comes on, the more adrenaline you need to do it, and the more regular everyday things become blasé. Same with all the people I've interviewed from John Glenn to Buzz Aldrin to Neil Armstrong. You interview these people and then, Glenn to Buzz Aldrin to Neil Armstrong. You interview these people and then, you know, you go home and, and, uh, uh, to your wife and, and suddenly it's not John Glenn or it's not, uh, Neil Armstrong. So you know, it's there. Yeah. You know, it's there. And, and it takes more and more to, to get the same high. I think it's like a drug. Uh, I'm sure Heather, Heather can talk more about that. It's funny. I was just about to ask this. So Heather, and you can break down the neuroscience behind whether or not this mimics the characteristics of addiction. But I also want to know, can the brain's reaction and chemical

reactions actually lead to a person coming back to this like a drug? So one, tell us how it is like a drug, if it is, and two, how does it make you want more like a drug? Okay. So I'm going to, as I said, it's very nuanced. There's no one answer, but I'm going to break it down to simplify it into two categories of types of risk takers. One is the type where it's genetic predisposition. There are certain people that are born with a certain type of gene that codes for a serotonin receptor, where if you have this, you're more likely to be a risk taker or to be impulsive, right? Or to go for immediate pleasure, despite what the negative consequences are. So most of us are risk averse. We outweigh the risks of something, which will hold us back and make us more conservative. Other people who may be

genetically predisposed are more likely to go for the immediate reward despite the risks. That's one type of person. Then you can have someone where it's a sort of learned behavior. And now the prefrontal cortex, when it's very active, that makes us be a little bit more conservative thinking about the future consequences of our actions. If you have damage to the prefrontal cortex, if it's underactive, the various different states where then you become more risk-taking. Okay. You're less inhibited. So what happens though, when you're in a high stakes situation, there's a certain kind of neurochemical response. There's a subcortical part of your brain, evolutionarily older,

the reward center of your brain, where you get this hit of dopamine. It's the pleasure center of the brain. Now, if you implant electrodes there, and let's say a rat can self-stimulate by pressing a lever that actually stimulates that part of the brain directly, they'll choose to press that lever and self-stimulate and get that feeling of reward over sex. If they're sex deprived, food, if they're food deprived, water, if they're water deprived to the point of exhaustion. So it's really a very powerful, um, urge to have that feeling over everything. And this is the circuitry involved in addiction. So what we find is that people can develop what's called behavioral addictions, like pathological gamblers, people who get a high from stealing, um, internet addiction, where

you start getting, you can sort of self-stimulate that part of the brain and then you want to get that hit again. Don't forget sexaholics, please. Absolutely. Yeah. They get the sex addiction. And so what happens is then just like with drugs, you habituate. So at first, that first time, I don't know, you climb a free climb a mountain or something, you're going to get this extreme high. But then maybe by the 10th time you do it, it feels a little bit more blasé. So then you need to up the ante. You need to do something other. You know, maybe now you climb the mountain, you know, with no net underneath or whatever it may be.

So each time as your brain habituates, you need more and more stimulation to get that feeling of that, that activation, that dopamine hit. Uh, and so I think that's, what's perhaps happening in this case where, you know, he just started doing it a part of his job, but then over time it became behavioral addiction and that the regular things in life are so blase in comparison and you need to seek more and more to get that high. So, but unlike an addiction, which often causes reckless behavior, because there are two things involved. One, the reasoning area of your brain is affected by the drug. And so, you know, and two, you are just so focused on that, like you'll do anything to get

that thing. Jim takes a great deal of precautionary measures. He does a lot of research. He's very measured in his approach to it. Can you explain how those two things happen at the same time? So as I said there, so that's a really good point. So there are these two categories of people, I would say. I mean, obviously, a little bit more nuanced than that, but roughly speaking. The ones who lack impulse control are the ones that have, like, let's say, damaged the prefrontal cortex or genetic predisposition or underactivation of the prefrontal cortex where they're more – they're less thoughtful in the risks that they're taking. Ah. So they're less measured. They don't have

as much control. It's like they see that, you know, piece of chocolate cake and they have to go for it right away. They can't withhold responding. Get in my belly. Okay. Sorry. Whereas in this other case, which he seems to be more like is that, um, you have perfectly good control of the prefrontal cortex. You can be very measured. You can take all the right precautions. You're not doing it impulsively, right? But yet the, you still need to find that fix, right? Even if it's in a very thoughtful way, ultimately you're still going for that risk. I mean, you can even think about it with performers, right? You know, you as a comedian, you get on stage, you get a bit of that hit of dopamine, right,

when you're on stage. And so some people will choose to perform, you know, over everything, over when they're, even if they're not making money at it, you know, if they're having to live in a crappy studio apartment for years, because that high of being on the stage is so important,

is so stimulating. Has somebody so, it's so stimulating. Has somebody been talking to you about my life? Hey, wait a minute. This happens with journalists too. Okay. It's not, it's not just comedians. The thing is, the thing is here, if you've got somebody who can control the way that they approach this, but they are ultimately competitive, how does that skew the whole situation okay because

competition can that be a drug in of itself that i mean that that then adds that adds another fuel to the dopamine rush absolutely and i think that that i mean competition is a huge factor that gives you that hit of adrenaline you know trying to win. And that's evolutionarily old drive, right? You know, competing. But the thing is, it can cause you to do stupid things. Sometimes people take risks that are, let's say, if you're doing something just to get the high, you might do it with some risk. But now if you're competing against somebody else, you might try to up the ante. And this is where end up you know dying in extreme sports right because they keep pushing and pushing and because it's so competitive that they might get to places where it does become really dangerous and that is sort of what's pushing them over the edge that drive to to to compete everyone's upping the ante then you end

up people falling off mountains and dying when they're rock climbing and those kinds of things. Okay. Well, you haven't fallen off a mountain yet. I hope that remains that case, but you have something to... Yeah. I like that, Heather, about the competition because I know sometimes I'm out there in a race car school or a drag racing school, and first it becomes just about being able to do it. But then you want the best time. You want the fastest speed. You want the quickest lap around the track. And that can lead to recklessness. I've been lucky so far. I haven't had any accidents. But again, the competitive drive is there. Well, that's for you as a writer.

You have a great prefrontal cortex, Jim. I hope that prefrontal cortex wasn't injured when I fell figure skating with Sasha. Believe it or not, right, Heather? That head injury could have affected him where he could become a reckless person. I hope not. He's kind of lucky, right? See, as a writer, your drive may not be to break a world record. You know, I'm going to run faster than Usain Bolt.

I'm going to throw a javelin further than someone else. I need a scoop. I need the big story. I'm an to throw a javelin further than someone else. I need a scoop. I need the big story. I'm an adventure writer. What adventure can I have that takes me above and beyond, sets a story that no one else is going to touch for decades? Well, and one thing is you never quite know where the story is going to be. I was down in South Africa not too long ago,

and I took a ride in an English electric lightning, and the pilot put me through a bunch of... Can you tell us what that is? I mean, for those who don't know at home. It's a supersonic plane. It's a supersonic plane. It's a delta wing aircraft. It's called a what now?

Yeah, and it's called English electric lightning. English electric lightning. Yeah. And the pilot took me through a series of horrific aerobatic moves, which made me get really sick. And afterwards, we landed the plane, and I was get really sick. And afterwards we landed the plane and I was angry at him. And I said, why did you do it? And he gave me some reason. He said, are you going to stick around for the air show tomorrow? And I said, no, I've got to go back and do another

adventure in Cape town that night. The next night I read in the paper that there was a crash at the air show. It was him and he died and the plane was totally destroyed. And that was the last, I was the last person to fly in that plane with him, and it was hydraulics failure. So you just never know. Again, when your number's up, it's up. And the moral of that story is don't be a dick and make somebody sick while you should be just showing them how the plane works, all right?

Okay? So there you have it. And I guess on that note. That's a downer. That's a downer. Let's end on an uproar. Quite literally so there you have it. And I guess on that note, that's a downer. That's a downer. Let's end on an uproar. Quite literally a downer. Yeah. Thank you to Dr. Heather Berlin. Heather, that is awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Heather. Oh, you're welcome. Jim Clash is going to be sticking around, maybe with a cheerier story than the last one. Absolutely. Any luck? Right. Coming up next, we have Dr. Eric Breimer,

an extreme sports psychologist. We'll be back shortly. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm still Chuck Nice. And this is still Playing With Science. Today, we're talking about extreme sports with adventure writer Jim Clash.

And joining us now via Skype, extreme sports psychologist, Dr. Eric Breimer. Hey, doctor, welcome. Yes, doctor. Thank you very much. Right, you're up in Leeds University, Leeds Beckett University in the United Kingdom, and you are author of Phenomenology

and the Extreme Sport Experience. Have I mangled that even with my bad English? No, that sounds pretty good. It's a good effort. I've been patted on the head. Fantastic. Yes, thank you, Professor. So, you know, Doc, when we talk about phenomenology, professor so you know doc um when we talk about phenomenology uh i i suppose that means because you're looking at this from a phenomenological uh or a phenomena phenomena logical perspective as opposed to um you have a different interpretation of extreme sports everybody thinks extreme sports is just oh oh, I'm on a skateboard. I'm extreme. Or, hey, I did a base jump. I'm extreme. So can you tell us what is

your interpretation of or definition of extreme sports? Well, I think we're still working on a definition because we're moving forward from the traditional or maybe old-fashioned is a better way of looking at now perspective where extreme sports are really about risk or sort of trying to trick death or something along those lines. And we're moving more into trying to understand the motivations and experiences behind undertaking something like base jumping or proximity flying or surfing giant waves or whatever it might be.

So we're moving a little bit in towards creativity and we're looking at human nature relationships. We're trying to understand what's the difference that makes a difference between somebody who is a high performance athlete in, say, a traditional sport context and somebody who's a high performance athlete in an extreme sport context? So on the surface, there's a number of obvious things that are different. One is if you mess up, you're most likely going to die in an extreme sport. Or if you don't, it's really because you've got the skills and capacities to do something about it. So along these lines we talk about it in a mismanaged mistake or accident would most likely result in death but beyond that

and we're talking about the real extreme ones here we're not talking about the skateboarding we're talking about the the other you know the furthest end of the which which of course is still evolving because um you know as base jumping has moved into proximity flying and as surfers have started to utilize machines to get themselves onto the bigger waves, extreme sports are evolving rapidly. We are, you know, obviously the rules and regulations constrict, constrain what people can do. They determine what success is all about. And also in traditional sports, boundaries are very heavily constrained. But within extreme sports, boundaries are not constrained. There is, um, uh, you know, you, you, it's up to you how you interact with the, with the, with the environment around you. And, um, uh, there

aren't any rules and regulations or external bodies that say, this is what success looks like. Um, and, and therefore, if you do it like this, you're doing well. So those are the things that make them slightly different. Um, and because of those things we're you know we're looking at an activity that is continually evolving we're looking something that involves creativity cooperation um and and all those wonderful things that we think are really good and sport is supposed to um enhance and um so forth but modern sport probably does that less now than adventure sports okay i mean okay doctor do you commonly see a type of person that is predisposed to go to the extreme sport end of the spectrum that i think is a really wonderful question and that's a question that a lot of

psychologists have been working on for a long time it it does link to the original kind of idea that there must be a risk-taking thrill-seeking kind of personality um uh structure that that sort of if you like enforce it or forces or guides or um creates uh um the capacity for somebody to undertake an activity this level in fact what we're finding is that there isn't one personality structure. People have tried all sorts of different kinds of personality measurements, tried to categorize people in particular ways. And what we're finding is the difference, the variability is so great that we cannot say there's one particular personality structure that suggests you will go into an extreme sport. So in studio, we have with us Jim Clash. will go into an extreme sport. So in studio, we have with us Jim Clash. And Jim is an inventor and a journalist. Jim, let me ask you, based upon what the doctor just said, would you,

from your own experience, interviewing so many of these adventurers and being one yourself, is there a common thread that you've been able to identify? And we won't use this as empirical data for research, but just from your anecdotal experience, have you seen a common thread throughout them? And would you say that it resides within you as well? I would say most of the people I've interviewed who are extreme adventurers all have something in common. It's called curiosity in action. Curiosity in action. Yes. And people are very curious. I know I'm very curious about what it's like to go 250 miles an hour, to climb the Matterhorn, to get shot with a.38. To me, that's a curiosity I have. And if

I'm interested in that and I want to know what it feels like, I take action. So the one thing I can say about most people who are extreme adventurers, they're very curious. The other thing is they are not fearless people. They really practice. They research what they're going to do. And they're very smart, most of them, about what they're doing. And there's a difference between perceived risk and calculated risk. And most of these people take calculated risks.

Gotcha. So, uh, uh, doctor, uh, based upon what Jim just said, um, in your empirical findings,

um, what kind of disposition do you see in these athletes with respect to, um, personality traits? I'm talking about the athletes themselves, personnel, personality traits. I'm talking about the athletes themselves, personality traits. And what you said was, I find very, very intriguing. These are not reckless people then. Okay. Okay. So can you speak to that? Yeah. I think that sort of the idea of the reckless risk taker was the traditional understanding. And we're definitely finding that's not the case.

And what we actually find is that people who participate in whatever activity it is, and the more extreme it gets, the more important this is, they have a really deep understanding of their own capabilities and capacities, really profound understanding of the environment that they're moving in, or if they don't, they find out about it. That sort of curious streak, which I definitely agree with, and a really deep understanding of the activity, the task that they're doing. So those three things are absolutely important,

and they're vital to an extreme athlete's capacity to perform effectively. No extreme athlete wants to die. I mean, the positive side of their activity is so powerful that doing it in a way that means they can keep doing it, they can participate again and again and again and again in different ways is really, really important. That profound relationship with the natural world, the way of being sort of part of the natural world if you're an advent adventure in nature, whether that's air, whether that's water, whether that's land. That curiosity, I think I agree with.

We're looking at it more about an embodied creativity is what we're talking about it. But it's the same idea. The creativity used to be thought of as something you think up of an idea and then you find a way of making it happen. But what we're looking at much more now is that creativity is an embodied activity and it um and it and it sort of it changes and develops and evolves as action happens as opposed to working it all out and then going and doing the activity so i would definitely agree with that notion as well you just described the jazz player man absolutely that's a jazz player brother

so the thing is the thing is doctor while i'm listening to both jim and yourself talk through i'm hearing about people who have learned to control fear learned to control circumstances so as they have the knowledge and ability to deal with the environment around them and then i think are extreme sports actually quite good for us because you sound as if you're creating people who are very very mindful of a lot of things around them and being able to control things that would normally crush others and therefore it has a positivity attached to it absolutely and that's definitely been our argument and some of the stuff i've written about is how how good they are for health

and well-being i'm not saying that everybody should do them adventure has different levels and maybe adventure in in you know in a lower level kind of adventure might be appropriate for everybody but i would definitely agree with the fact that extreme sports for those who undertake it have are really positive for a psychological, emotional, and physical perspective. So we're drawing to a close here, but I want to get to a couple things. One, in the segment before, which you were not a part of, most unfortunately, because you're fascinating, we were talking about going fast. And Jim was talking about driving a Veyron at 200 and something miles an hour. I myself had a super bike for a little bit of time and I used to drive it very fast, but for different reasons.

I wasn't really seeking a thrill as much as I was quieting my mind. Because at the speeds that I traveled, if I looked the wrong way or did the wrong thing, I knew I would die. And that caused me to, for the only time in my entire life, to have a singular focus. Absolutely. Can you talk about the transcendent nature of being extreme? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I would definitely agree with with that and that's what we found in our research as well is that rather than being about the thrills and excitement and so forth that does happen but that kind of maybe happens afterwards the actual experience itself is very focused you know if you're it almost facilitates that focus without you necessarily having to make

it happen the traditional mindfulness literature is about um a proactive process where you put yourself into a mindful um a mindful state oh but what extreme sports do and adventure more generally is it facilitates that whether you are aware aware of it or not and actually exactly what you're saying, you are so focused on the environment that you're in and ensuring that you're doing things effectively, that things, the socio-cultural kind of concerns, things just sort of fall away. But it's more than a, I no longer have to worry about things or I'm not thinking about all the, whether I've got enough money or the worries and concerns. It's much, much deeper than that. And what we've called it, we've called it a freedom.

It's a freedom from that sort of mental chatter, which essentially is mindfulness. Oh, my God, that's the exact word I use, chatter. Okay, before we have to take a break, Doctor, there is a, I'll get to the end of the show, green sports. Green sports? Yeah, so if we take extreme sports like mountain climbing or hanging by one arm off a cliff, doing some really what I would call dramatic stuff out there in the environment,

am I right in thinking that you're proposing that the more people do that, the more they'll find an environmental positivity to protect that outdoor space. I love it. That extreme sport then has another foldback of positivity. Can you just enhance upon what I've just thought about there? Yes. Yeah. No, that's a really nice thought.

I like that thought. But that is what we're finding. We're finding that the more people participate in all sorts of um you use the term green sport you could call it green exercise or nature sport or whatever you would like to do so not necessarily at the high extreme level but the more people involved in these activities the more they slip into um this sort of mindful focused um state that they find, which ultimately also enhances well-being, the more likely they are to realize a deeper, more profound connection with the environment they participate in, whatever that might be. And as a result, the more likely they are to

want to give back. So it's the reciprocal kind of relationship. Fantastic. you're absolutely right you know both of you just made me think of every surfer cares about the ocean more than anybody you will ever meet so yeah that's fantastic wow this has been great doctor thank you thank you so much doc i mean eric beimer from leeds beckett university in the uk, science, ecology. Ecology. I like it. Who thought sport would bring you into science and ecology? There you go.

It has. And thank you to everybody who's been on our show today. That's it. Bye for now. Look forward to your company next time. Thank you.