StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - The Science of SailGP

Episode Date: July 18, 2019

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice investigate the science-filled, data-driven world of SailGP yacht racing alongside Team USA member Hans Henken and Team USA performance analyst Phil Crain. Photo Credit: ©SAILGP-Javier Salinas. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

What episode of StarTalk are you going to listen to next? Well, we can help narrow down your choices. Go to startalkradio.net and search for any topic like astrophysics or time travel. We've got hundreds of episodes of StarTalk, so there are many episodes on every topic you can imagine. Again, search for your favorite category of show at startalkradio.net. Don't want ads? You can listen to this episode commercial-free by supporting us at patreon.com slash startalkradio.net. Don't want ads? You can listen to this episode commercial free by supporting us at patreon.com slash startalkradio.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. Today Chuck and I are getting all ship shape and Bristol fashion. Or in plain English we're going sailing. And what a beauty she is too. The F50 class catamaran competes in SailGP and is the fastest thing with a sail on water.

That's right. And joining us from Team USA is SailGP performance analyst Phil Crane, along with crew member who is also an aeronautical and astronautical engineer and Olympic hopeful Hans Hencken. Yeah, and that's going to be a great set of interviews. But before we have them walk the plank, and we will get them to tell us all their secrets, and of course, where they buried the treasure. Yes, nothing better than buried treasure. But in all seriousness, SailGP is the sport at its best. And if you've never heard of this sport racing at this level, today's episode will whet your appetite,

put you at the front of the pack. And once you've listened to this episode, go straight to the SailGP website. We'll give you the details later. But before we get to our first guest, we must congratulate the US team for their first ever win in SailGP. That was Race 5 in New York.

And really, it must have been brilliant to podium in their own country. First up, York. And really, it must have been brilliant to podium in their own country. First up, Chuck. And as we promised, coming to us right now is the flight controller for USA, a former world champion moth sailor, which I'm really interested in. One of the coolest things you've ever seen in your life. One of the coolest things you've ever seen in your life. And he is also an aeronautical and an astronautical engineer.

Does he know anything about science? Maybe. Maybe he might know a little bit about science. It's Hans, Hank and Hans. How are you, buddy? I'm doing great. Thanks. How are you guys? We're good. Thanks for coming to us all the way from Germany. Yeah, we're pretty excited about you being on the show and talking about the SailGP experience because it's ridiculous when you think you are actually,

or are you not? Are you flying or sailing? It's a little bit of both for sure. At its base dimension, we're definitely sailing the boat, but then there's kind of that third dimension where we kind of fly out of the water a little bit and get going a bit faster so yeah i'd say we're doing a little bit of both for sure yeah and you know what why don't we uh get into that because you know i think for the listener what would be fascinating is the flying part and

you know we're talking about foil racing and the foil is which is what is under the boat. And it uses kind of like the same physics as an airplane lift and drag to pull the boat up out of the water once the boat reaches a certain speed. So can you break that down for us and our listeners so that we can get kind of a mental picture of what's going on? Yeah, sure. Of course. So we have these big hydrofoils, which are these kind of L-shaped boards that go into the water. And as the boat continues to increase in its speed, we're able to add lift to these boards the same way that an airplane adds lift to its airplane wings. And for a typical speed around 18 knots, the boat is able to have enough speed to generate enough lift

to actually lift the entire boat out of the water. So the force that the boat is producing on the water, the foils are able to overcome that force and lift it out. So you are now using, if the wind is, say, 15, 18 knots, you can probably get to 50, 60 knots speed. Yeah. Theoretically, that's the whole point of these boats is they go extremely fast. Yes.

But that's not right, is it? How do you, if you're wind powered, how do you go faster than the wind? Well, that is all about apparent wind. So if you think of it this way on a steel day completely still and you're riding your bike down the road you kind of feel like there's wind on your face that's a parent wind that's a parent so as the boat continues to go faster and faster it actually is creating its own breeze it's seeing a different kind of wind that apparent wind in front of it right and that's what allows the boat to continue to increase in speed and go faster than the breeze that we

actually have currently wow so you know what you just sparked in my mind? Is it food related? Because they get out. Normally, it makes me hungry. Anything that we talk about normally makes me hungry. But I have to say, you know, it's funny because, you know, as a Grand Prix racer, it's kind of the same. When you think about the foil creating lift, that means it also behind it has to create draft. So when you're talking about that apparent win, that means that you can reach a certain speed that you create enough turbulence behind you to disrupt what you're doing in such a way to screw you up.

You could actually go too fast. There is definitely that cake there's definitely that problem and for exactly that reason we have two different sets of foils we have a light air set of foils and then a high speed set of four wheels a light air set of foils are used for conditions where it's significantly lighter so 10 knots or under and then as you got to go faster in about 14 to 15 knots, we add the high speed foils. So that exact problem is diminished.

But they're different shape. Yes. Well, they're on different parts of the boat. Yeah. Is that correct? Yeah. So those are two different types

of hydrofoils that are added to the boat and they have to be done before we go on the racing. So every morning there's a forecast, and then SailGP makes a call on what boards we'll use for that particular day. Right, because everybody has to use the exact... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. When you say SailGP makes the call,

it's because the sanctioning body has determined that every single boat must be exactly the same, right? Correct. Correct, exactly. So it's basically like a set of tires on a racing car. On a Formula One. Everybody, all right.

You've probably guessed I'm not a sailor. You've got a flight control system, which is new, as opposed to what was a joystick. Is that correct? Correct. When the boats were kind of being test run and designed previously, there was a joystick controller. Right. And that turned out to be not very adequately used. It wasn't the response time of the joystick wasn't fast enough to keep up with the user interface that we need to actually fly the boats in bigger breeze.

So it's been changed to these two different knobs on either end that you're able to spin in a complete circle. And it allows you to have a much faster interface with the foils. What sort of time are we talking about from you actioning something at your hands to the reaction of the foils? It's almost one-to-one. Wow. Almost the instant. I mean, it's not perfect. You know, every system has its delay, and that's delay and the system changing from the input of the turn radius to the foil. But there are gain settings that you're able to change on the flight controller to help.

But for the most part, it is one-to-one. With you able to have a kind of one-to-one relationship with the foils, are you reacting to the environmental conditions in the race or is someone instructing you? For the most part, I'm making calls of my own about how the boat's flying to the water and the new pressure that's coming off off the land wow so i had the great uh pleasure of watching you guys i couldn't get on the media boat and be out on the water because of course they know me yeah and they were like no don't let that guy on the boat. No. I couldn't stay for the time that it would take to get back to land. So I watched it from where the cameras were on land.

And the people that were watching who have never seen a sailing race before, like people stayed the whole time. Yeah. That's how exciting. Yeah, it was amazing. That's how exciting it was. People didn't say like, and this is New York, all right?

This is New York. People see crap all the time and they're like, oh, okay. That looks all right. And then they just go on about their business. People were stopping and watching the entire race and races. It was incredible because,

first of all, it's just so exciting to watch these boats come up out of the water the amount of speed and the course is so tight i mean oh my god why make it easy yeah so and speaking of that all right yeah here we go. You guys are getting up to speeds, you know, routinely 45, you know, you can get up to 50 miles an hour, 60 miles an hour if you want it in a straight line. But with the winds being disrupted by the buildings and the water was real, it was a beautiful day on Saturday. It was a beautiful day. The water was a little choppy. Okay. And the course is so tight. on Saturday. It was a beautiful day. The water was a little choppy. Okay?

And the course is so tight. How common is it to see like a collision or how afraid are you of a collision? And not you colliding, but somebody else

hitting you. Because I'd be more scared of that. I mean, there's always that fear in the back of your mind that you're like, wow, we're going really fast. And everyone else is trying to do their best to stay in control as well. And I think it takes everyone on the teams to be able to look outside the boat and not only focus on what we're doing, but also try to focus on what everyone else is doing. That way we're all in tune with every single maneuver. Because the decisions we make highly affect the boats around us at the same time.

So no matter what we do, other people are thinking the same thing. So it's a group effort on keeping us safe, but at the same time, we're all very competitive. So we're trying to get that edge all the time, you know? Oh my God, that's very much like Formula One and NASCAR, where you have to be competitive with the guy, but you also have to care about the other guy too.

Like everybody has to care about one another, but at the same time, you want to beat them. Yeah, but you don't care enough because this is on water, so therefore it's going to take me about this long to mention pirates. You are going to be piracy because you're going to steal that other guy's wind. You're going to try and cut off his supply. And that tactic, I can see it over and over again in sailing. Is it still as relevant in racing at GP?

Yes, bad air is still very relevant in sailing at GP. And it's something that we have to deal with all the time. And you have to deal with it at higher speeds. And not only bad air you have to deal with, you also have to deal with bad wake through the water. That's right. Turbulence in the water is a big deal for the whales to go through. We're sailing in two mediums.

Right, exactly. Because what's going on above the water and what's going on below the water are equally as important for you guys. Very, very true. Yeah. So let me ask you this. Speaking about what you said about, you know, wake. So you guys are sailing on the Hudson, which is not a river. People think it's a river.

It's not. It's a tidally influenced estuary. Listen to you. Yeah. Well, I only know this because I do some research for climate. And so that's how I know. So anyway, the Native Americans called the Hudson the river that flows both ways. And that's because the currents are notorious. Both ways. And that's because the currents are notorious. Yeah, they're very strong all week. Yeah, man. So how do you guys deal with something like that,

especially when the currents are changing direction? I mean, that's huge. It's a big part of everything in our sport. And it's something that's really relatable to sailing. So a lot of us are able to bring that back from typical normal sailing and apply it to the 50 sailing for sure but it's a judgment call all the time you have to it's just like seeing pressure on the water from the breeze you have to make a current decision and calculation that goes into where you place your maneuvers how you get around the race course as efficiently as possible so it's just another one another variable you have to add in

to the entire equation of what is sailboat racing all the time. So you mentioned the fact that you've got to be mindful of another competitor's wake. How often does that get done on purpose? I don't know if it's, you know, at this early stage of racing, I don't think a lot of us are really too worried about doing it on purpose quite yet all right i think as you see as you see it develop down the line and the next two events i think you'll start to see more of the competitive edge and really trying to make that a big factor and how we sail the boats well i was telling chuck that the british team capsized uh just out of sportsmanship so as to allow the other teams a better chance of winning. You do realize that, don't you? The Brits are very polite.

Very polite. Super polite. Thank you. Very polite. So speaking of that, you guys right now clocked the longest time for flight. So you guys clocked over an hour of flight in the race. And you also have the fastest speed in a straight line

thus far. I'm trying to figure out, is this something that you guys take and then use it? You're like, oh man, what happened when this happened? And then you work on that as a team, because you're kind of like a hive mind. There's like five guys. Go ahead. Yeah. So to piggyback off that, there's an extraordinary amount of data that comes off these boats, just like in F1. And all that data is being able to be processed and used by all of us on the team to be able to figure out why something works and why something else doesn't work. something works and why something else doesn't work and so from all those episodes and all from all those different kind of incidents we're able to kind of diagnose with the data exactly why

something's working really well and then we try to replicate that in the racing can you how how quick is that data from the boat to the shore and back to you and do you i mean you're not going to sit there and read your computer screen in the middle of a race or are you well so it's funny you ask we have we have on board we have six different computer screens giving us real-time data on our actual boat in terms of boat speed lift drag all these different kinds of metrics are being displayed on our boats are able to make snap dot snapshot decision making based upon that data but then over the course of the day it's all collected and with the with the great help from oracle we're able to have kind of debrief same day with that

exact data looking at it and being like okay this maneuver right here at you know three o'clock this was a really good maneuver why was it good and you'll go back to the data and right there in the debrief be like okay it's because this this this happened. Let's try to replicate that next time. So, Chad, you're an aeronautical and astronautical engineer. I am, yes. Congratulations. No sarcasm attached there. I mean it. Congratulations.

That's brilliant. You're going to need that just to be able to absorb that kind of data in the middle of a race. Did you choose that course study because you knew you were going to be a flight controller on a GP vessel? It never really occurred to me ever that my studies would be applied in this direct way in my athletic career, but I'm happy to have the background knowledge to be able to apply it to it. And yes, it helps me a lot having the engineering background to be able to understand all this data and be able to help my fellow teammates kind of diagnose and kind of digest it in our debriefs. So speaking of the data and what Gary just asked you with the computer screens and the real-time data transfers, and at the same time, when I'm watching the race, what I see

is I see a foil come up out of the water, and then I see a foil drop back down in the water. of the water and then I see a foil drop back down in the water. And, you know, is that something that is more intuition? It's like, I feel like I've seen these conditions before. Or are you looking at a screen and saying, oh, man, I got to do this? Or is it a combination of the two? It's definitely a combination of the two. And I think at first it's all intuition. How long did it take you to learn your vessel yeah so these boats are really really new and it's been a it's been a really really fast deep learning curve being able to keep up with everything that has to be new everything has to be learned and kind of implied in the racing sense because not only do we have to learn it very quickly but then we have to apply it in a very competitive atmosphere to be able to be better

than other people and so you know it's it's an ongoing process and things about the boats are actually slowly changing as people kind of learn about them. They say, hey, you know, this system needs to be changed because I'm not physically able to control that well enough yet. So since Sydney and our first event back in February till now, there's been quite a few tweaks to the control system to allow, you know, allow the flight controllers and the different manipulators on the boat to have a better feel and better touch on the boats themselves. So for now, it's still an ongoing process learning the entire boat for sure. And that's pretty wild, man. You guys are trailblazers.

That's what you are. Well, actually, you're wakeblazers, I should say, not trailblazers. But anyway, how do you work with the helmsman? Because now the helmsman is the guy with the steering wheel, right? Yeah, correct. And you're the flight controller. You're actually tweaking the boat in all these little, not even little, in all these huge ways and little ways. And so are you sometimes flying the boat and he's sometimes flying the boat?

Or are you guys working in tandem? Or how do you distribute labor so that you're never working against one another? Yeah, that's a really good question. Luckily, we have commsets on board. So it's so loud on board. We're going so fast that you physically have to have comms to be able to talk to each other. So we have onboard communication. And how that

works is in maneuvers as you were talking about earlier there's there's boards going up and down and so at different times different boards are being controlled by two different people yeah so as we go you know one way i'm controlling the main board which is to lure the one that's being under power and allowing the boat to have lift and then as we slowly change direction the helmsman takes control of that board and then the new board goes down and i would be taking control of that one so there's there's a communication handoff saying hey look you're flying the boat now i'm going to concentrate on the new board going down and then there's okay new board going down happy for the old board to come up and so there's a little bit of kind of a verbal handoff and then a physical handoff per se wow for anybody listening to this

that's insane i know but you know what that's what has to happen what what i think anybody who has never seen sail gp oh man what will blow them away apart from the fact that you guys fly and it's counterintuitive because you fly the boat and i'm sitting there going how do you fly the boat you fly the boat and so you go and watch it and you realize that when you tack you pivot almost on one foil i've never seen a craft that size be able to turn in such a small circle it's unbelievable how on earth do you turn a vessel that size in such a small circle because it's outrageous when you see the guy's tack yeah so i mean what it really comes down to is the amount of surface area that's in the water i mean we're we're sailing the boat on a very very small amount of foils right there's

the the elevators on the rudders are about as long as my arm so three feet and then you know depend upon if we're on the high speed foil or the light air foil there's only maybe about six feet of surface area in terms of length right so in total there's there's very little in the water so when we go to rotate the boat we're rotating the boat like on a surfboard there's nothing down there right so it just spins right around right so that is awesome majority of the time majority of the time we're actually slowing the turn down for ourselves to get across. We could whip ourselves right off. The G-forces are so high that

if you see the video, everyone's leaning into the turn all the time because the G-force is going to throw us right off the boat. What sort of G-force are you experiencing? I would say we're probably pulling at least two, two and a half Gs. Wow. That's pretty intense.

For a sailboat, that's pretty intense. You know what I mean? Wow. Hey, listen, man. It has really been a pleasure having you on and talking about this exciting new sport that I think so many people are going to find and fall in love with.

And we really appreciate you being here, man. Next race is in Cowes. And for anyone that doesn't know, that's on the Isle of Wight to the very south of England. And it's Cowes Week. And it's a very, very famous regatta. And I wish you the very, very best of luck because it's a kind of a mecca for sailing cows, most definitely.

Yeah, it's going to be, you know, Cowes Week is a huge week in the sailing world. And for the F50 to be there on the 10th and 11th of August, it's going to be fantastic. We're reallyows Week is a huge week in the sailing world. And for the F50 to be there on the 10th and 11th of August, it's going to be fantastic. We're really looking forward to it. Wishing you the best of luck. Hey, wishing you all the best, man. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. You got it. Thanks to Hans. If you haven't seen SailGP, change that as soon as you possibly can. After you've listened to the whole podcast, we are going to take a break. When we come back, we have Phil Crane.

Now, he's performance analyst. So the person that gets the data, sends the data back, and gives the guys everything they need to know, particularly people like Hans, who's flight controller, it's him. So if you're interested and had your appetite whetted,

we will have Chuck the fifth beetle. Yes. So George Martin will be coming back. Or Little Richard. Or Little Richard, or whoever you wish. As long as that person's Phil Crane. There's so many Fifth Beetles. Yes.

Shut up. I'm Spartacus. Right, we're going to take that break. We'll be back shortly. Is your wall empty? Welcome to the club. Does it need to be covered in science? StarTalk is here to help.

Go to StarTalkRadio.net slash store and choose between our Let's Make America Smart Again poster or our StarTalk Universe poster. Get yours now at StarTalkRadio.net slash store. now at startalkradio.net slash store. Welcome back to Playing with Science and our SailGP episode. Now, we've spoken to Hans Hencken and I think you'll agree with me, what a fabulous, fabulous

insight into what it takes to be in control of an F-50 catamaran. Flying on the water. Flying the boat. Actually, flying under the water and over the water. Don't confuse me. Yes. Right.

But in there is an awful lot of strategy, and someone who is part of that strategy is analyst Phil Crane, who is performance analyst. So, Phil, welcome to Playing With Science, sir. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. Without a doubt. So, just, you're kind of like, we've described you as the fifth beetle. I hope you don't mind that analogy. But how are you intricately involved in the race

performance? Sure. So, you know, when the guys are out there racing or when they're practicing, I'm able to sit on shore and get live telemetry sent to me, both from our team and from all the other teams. So if the guys have a question as to why someone's beating them, I can help them answer it and we can do it almost immediately. You get the other guy's data as well. Well, the other guys are getting his data too. Yeah.

Everybody gets everybody's data. Yeah, I know. But it's interesting that from there, you're almost playing three-dimensional chess. You can now analyze all the other aspects and maybe it's another layer to your strategy. Absolutely. Yeah, it's pretty unique to SailGP that we can see what everyone else is doing.

It really levels the playing field and it makes it easy for teams that are less experienced to catch up quickly and keep the racing really tight. And it makes it easy for teams that are less experienced to catch up quickly and keep the racing really tight. Well, it also is a great display of the skill of those who are in the boat if all factors are equal all across the board, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it's a true test of the athletes. What kind of telemetrics are we talking about here? Oh, everything. so we have over

1200 channels of data um jesus he sent to us oh my god and hands hands was quite flippant about yes i'm able to assimilate the information that's coming at me so you can't just data dump on your flight control you've got to be selective, surely, or not. Absolutely, yeah. You know, I could give them way more than they could process. We typically, you know, try to pick out a few key things that we may be focusing on on that day or on that race and talk about those because there are so many different things you could focus on that you could get overwhelmed very easily.

Yeah, with all those hundreds of data points, can you give us some of what you would consider most critical? I mean, circumstances are going to dictate that that will change. But are there any that you would look at from race to race and say, all right, here are some critical keys that I have got to focus on? Yeah. So one thing that we look at a lot is the wing profile. So we have these rigid carbon fiber wings lot is the wing profile. So we can, we have these rigid carbon fiber wings in place of a sail. Yes. And you can control the, control the shape of them very accurately. So you can adjust the camber and the twist and all the teams do that a little

bit differently. And that's a big driver that, you know, that's where all your power is coming from. So you're trying to compare between the teams and see, you know, who has the best wing profile for that day. And those wind conditions is a big thing from race to race. Another thing is what we call the rudder average, which controls the pitch of the boat. So how bow up or bow down you are. That's another thing that we look at very consistently across the fleet. Wow.

Wow. So has there ever been a time when you're looking at just, let's just take those two data points and then maybe, you know, some environmental data points at the same time. And you look at another team and say, oh something that you wouldn't do because you're focused on perhaps that that might work for them, but it won't work for you? Yeah, it depends. You know, you have to make the call and that's something the coach and I talk about a lot

is, you know, that these guys are doing something differently, but do we want to emulate it or not? You know, are we happy with where we are? Right. But it's good to, you know, feed them the information and have everyone as a team discuss that. There was an instance in San Francisco where

we were just practicing and doing lineups with another team. I mentioned the term rudder average. They had a different rudder average than we did. They were going faster. I fed that information back to them just a few seconds after they finished that lineup. Then they went and lined up with them again after changing to the same setting

and were faster at the same speed. So we can make very quick changes if we want to. Nice. It's insane. Yeah, but it just shows you the level of complexity we are operating at in this particular sport. It is, as you said, you've got to be selective about what you bring forward because in the end, the flight controllers got to be aware of the climactic situation around

them. There was a lot in the New York race. I heard the commentators talk regularly about puffs and downward pressure. Now, that sounded as if that was something quite unique to this particular race. Yes, New York was probably the most challenging conditions we're going to see on the whole tour. And it is pretty unique. You get puffs, you know, going around the buildings on the Hudson River, coming from completely different directions

so that the wind will kind of wrap around one side of those buildings and wrap around the other. And you could see 80-degree, 90-degree wind shifts and massive changes in the pressure. So in particular, in that venue, the guys really need to keep their head out of the boat looking because you can see on the water when a puff is coming and looking for those. And that's critical in a place like that. Wow. So, you know, in New York, I read that you guys clocked over an hour of out-of-water flying time. How do you process that information and then take that and improve the team so that when you're not in those conditions, you might be able to replicate it?

Because I would assume, and I may be wrong, I would assume that the goal is to stay out of the water as much as possible, to do as much flying as you can. Am I right? Yeah, absolutely. So when you're out of the water, you're minimizing drag, you just have those hydrofoils in there, and that's the fastest that you'll be. You won't be flying around the course all the time. And so we can look at a day like that day and figure out, in particular, some maneuvers that you want to look at because those are the areas that you are most likely to drop off your foils. So if you go in a straight line, it's pretty easy. When you're maneuvering, making a turn, it's hard to stay on those foils.

So we look at things like the turn rate, the different settings in the computer, how the guys actually on the boat are handing off control of the boat, and try and figure out what was working that day and figure out how we can replicate it in other locations. Now, does every team have a data analyst? Because I know Team USA does, but does every team have a person like you on the shore

relaying information, processing information? Because that extra set of eyes has got to be invaluable. I would see every team having to do this. At the moment, not every team does. I think more and more, you're going to see all the teams doing it. But USA is one of the first to identify that as an area that's very important. Makes sense. I have to ask you, you've got something like a 24 meter high wing yeah fixed wing i mean we spoke to hands just a minute ago and we sort of related formula one motor racing with the f50 and house lgp is going and operating motor racing lowest center gravity you can possibly get, yet you've got a 24-meter high fixed wing.

You guys are working with essentially a low center of gravity. So how have you come to terms with that in technical terms to be able to still ensure that you do what you need to do with such a thing going on? Yeah. I mean, the wing is necessary to be that tall. You get more air, the wind is necessary and to be that tall just you know you get you get more air the wind is moving faster as you as it's aloft um and they have tried very hard to minimize the

weight aloft so it's a it's a completely carbon fiber skeleton with just some shrink wrap over it so for what it is it's very light um but it is still quite tough to to balance the boat and that's just like any sailboat, but these sailboats in particular are balancing just on one very small point because they're up in foil. They're ex-tippy, if you will. And, yeah, it takes the best sailors in the world to keep them upright all the time,

and as we saw in the New York event, some people don't keep it upright all the time. Yeah, you're referring to the Brits, and we've already discussed this with Hans. That was a generous offer from the Brits to take themselves out of the equation to allow others to win. I hope you're aware of that.

They're quite sporting. Quite sporting. It's very sportsmanlike of us. Aren't they? Wonderful. How do you know what data is just useful and what data is undeniable because Hans told us, okay, like a lot of this is my intuition. It's my sailing knowledge, you know? So how do you go to somebody like Hans or

how do you go to a helmsman and you say, look, man, here's what the data is saying. And I know it might feel like it's the wrong thing to do but we gotta do it like this yeah um i mean it's great that we have so much data to go by because you can really get good answers to those questions of what is faster around the racetrack and you know one metric that we use is called vmg or velocity made good um so that's you know you can't sail directly upwind or directly downwind the sailboat so that's a component of your velocity that's, you know, you can't sail directly upwind or directly downwind in a sailboat. So that's a component of your velocity that's going upwind or downwind.

And the books, that's the critical thing right there. So if we compare two teams and say, you know, this is the big difference between us in our setup and their VMG is better, you can put hard numbers on that and say, you know, we need to try that. Interesting. It is. So let's go to the simulator that's based in London.

And once the guys have finished competing in races, they generally assemble there and work on a simulator. And am I right in that you've designed this yourself or are you part of a team? I'm part of a team that's worked on designing it. It's been a huge project and a great success. Yes. I mean, how difficult has it been? I mean, we're talking about world-class sailors here,

but how difficult has it been for them to learn what is basically a brand new craft? Yeah, these are the most technically advanced boats sailing in the world right now. And it's really important to have something like the simulator out there because the control systems are so complicated as well. But yeah, for them to come and learn in the simulator and capsize that boat as many times as they like, they can try different positions, try all kinds of different configurations, and they can do that all in the simulator with no risk.

First off, you start and just kind of throw the guys in there and let them get a feel for it. It is just like a real boat. Like a real boat. It's realistic enough. Yeah, that the guys can feel it just like they would feel a real boat and try and balance it just like you would balance a real boat. Gotcha, gotcha. So now, speaking of that,

is there a time where you will have enough data points where you can make your whole thing predictive so that you're actually, you know that there are parameters that are going to pretty much dictate the way the race is going to go and the conditions. And so, boom, you would be able to predict. New York would be a pretty tough one. Of all the venues, that would be the toughest to sort of predict the weather and how the boats might line up. San Francisco, the venue that we went to previously, that would be much easier. It's relatively consistent. We gathered very good data on the wind conditions and the current conditions there. So theoretically in the future, you know, we could have a much better current model, better wind model and predict, say, which side of the race course might have better wind and would help you win the race. What I find interesting is, and Chuck's touched on this, we have identical boats for each team. Yes. The thing that makes

them different will be the human involvement, the crew, the helmsman, the flight controller. And thinking about that, you've got five crew members, you've got a weight limit. There's got to be a strategy involved in there. You know, your grinders are going to have to be power to weight ratio. You've got to have people like that. Are you balancing out, quite literally, how you structure a team? Wow. Yeah. I mean, the athletes are the critical component here. And that's why we have a level playing field, as you say,

in most any other aspect. So what makes a difference is the quality of the athletes. And sure, it's very important to have extremely strong grinders who train regularly and they really, without them, the boat wouldn't go. At the same time, it's important to have extremely skilled flight controllers and wing trimmers to keep that boat stable. It's all one big team right there. And yeah, it's putting together the right team is critical. Hey, speaking of teams and the fact that everybody has a level playing field, does everybody get to use your simulator?

Yes, yes. All the teams come, use the simulator. It's open to everyone. Okay. And all the teams have come and they've all said how realistic it is and they'll be coming back, especially if they need to train new crews. But even in between events, they all come and they get very limited time on the real boats, on the water. So they have to supplement it with the simulator. Right. All right. Here we go, because you're probably the person to answer this question.

How much more do you think these crews can get out of with your help in terms of performance for the F-50? Yeah, it's hard to quantify it, but I think we could very easily see USA competing for the top spot in the league. They need a little bit more time. And I think we've gathered good data so far. Yeah, I think we have the right sailors there to make that happen. Nice. Well, we're looking forward to that day.

That is for sure. Next up, cows in England. Cows. Cows, as spelt with an E. Celt with an e cows cows yes i knew that would entertain cows it's on the isle of wight it's very famous don't mock it send the queen around with her corgis why is it why is why is cow such a famous sailing place it's historically for however many years being the week where everybody that sails on the open ocean. Anybody who sails goes to cows. You bet. That's why the guys are there.

Not the cows. The cows. It's not the cows. You can wave goodbye to us after this interview. I'm still going to have to work with you. It's the way of life, my friend. I can't wait to go to the cows. Okay. And with the US team't wait to go to the cows. Okay.

And with the U.S. team, all the very best in cows. Because, yeah, it would be a fabulous place for you to notch up a success. All right, Phil. Thank you very much. You're welcome. You are welcome. Thank you. Phil Crane there, the performance analyst for Team USA in SailGP.

Yeah, man. Grand Prix sailing. But it's a brand new sport with brand new vessels. As he said, these are cutting edge. There's nothing more, there is not a more technical advanced sailing craft out there. Now, if you're interested,

it's SailGP.com. Yeah. But don't go there till you've listened to the whole show. That's right. But it won't be long now. You'll have your chance. Yes. I mean, by all means, there's Japan, China, Australia, the Brits, the French,

and of course, the USA. And so you've got plenty of choice for a team to support, but I'm guessing you'll go with the USA. Yeah. Which is understandable. The cool thing about it is when you watch these teams out on the water,

it's such a great thing to see that you don't even care. It's like you're just so happy to be watching it. That, you know, of course, I wanted Team USA to win. But like when Japan won, I didn't care. I was just like, these guys are rocking. Like all these guys are cool. And once you see it, you'll realize why Chuck and I are so excited about this sport. It really is an awesome, awesome sport.

And we wish them, this is their debut season, so we wish them the very best of luck for everything coming forward. And I think Phil there was a little bit understated about how much more they can get out of it. Because every craft is identical. So it has to be down to the ability of the crew. And as we've touched on already, and Hans there, a little bit modest, he's world-class.

He is a world-class sailor. Yes, he is. And he and others around this event are exactly in that category. So when you talk about them being athletes, that's where we are. We are dealing with world-class athletes and sailors. We wish them the very best of luck.

Chuck. That's our time. It's time for us to sail away. I don't know whether there's a sunset involved in that or not, but anyway,

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. This has been Playing With Science, our SailGP special, and we've enjoyed your company and look forward to it

in the very near future. Wish you could listen to StarTalk commercial free? Join StarTalk on Patreon for as little as $5 per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patreon.com slash StarTalk Radio.