StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Winter Paralympics, with Medalists Mike Shea and Taylor Lipsett

Episode Date: March 8, 2018

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…Get ready for the 2018 Winter Paralympics as hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice chat with Olympic Medalists Mike Shea, Taylor Lipsett, and author Walter Thompson about the world of Paralympic athletics.Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Please subscribe to our channels on:Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360TuneIn: tunein.com/playingwithscienceGooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceStitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/winter-paralympics-with-medalists-mike-shea-and-taylor-lipsett/Photo Credit: By popejon2 [CC BY 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0)], via Wikimedia Commons Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly and I'm Chuck Nice and this is Playing With Science. The Olympics have always hogged the limelight, understandably so, but the rise in prominence of the Paralympics in recent years has been stellar, showcasing not just the para-athletes' athletic abilities, the Paralympic Athlete, will be joining us today, along with para snowboarder and silver medalist Mike Shea, as well as ice sledge hockey player and double gold medalist Taylor Lipset. This is going to be awesome. Isn't it just? So once again, another Playing With Science show with more precious metal than an episode of the crown so um while i go and get the polish and heard the corgis chuck uh you just introduced the first guest

i'll be back in a sec i'll be a minute that's right our first guest he is a doctor he is a professor he is professor dr walter thompson doc how are you doing great thanks how are you? Doing great, thanks. How are you guys? We are good, Doctor. Your CV is actually 47 pages long. You are an expert with a capital E, it would seem. What do you have, Professor of Kinesiology and Health? At Georgia State University. Yes, you're the co-editor of the Bible for the sport training and coaching the Paralympic athlete. Yeah. And you serve on the sports science committee of the International Paralympic Committee to give it its full title. So, yes, you are most certainly the person. You are heavily qualified to be able to have this conversation with us.

Well, thank you so much for that. Thank you, because you brought it all into one package, which is really helpful for us. Well, thank you so much for that. Thank you, because you brought it all into one package, which is really helpful for us. So maybe you can tell us about kinesiology. One of the things I love dearly, my mom went back to school when I was a kid. She went back to college, and I'll never forget the very large book that she had, and it said kinesiology on it. And I was like, mom, what is kinesiology? And she was just like, open the book and find out. So what is kinesiology?

Well, I'd ask you, what did you find out? Well, you know, but, well, actually what we found out that the study of kinetic motion in the body, so as the study of how the body moves, the study of the body's musculature, the study of the body's interaction with the body. So, I mean, that's what I got out of it. I'm not sure if I'm right. It was a long time ago. You are exactly right.

And I just recruited you to write the introduction from my next book. May I just say, Doctor, you have asked for an awful lot of trouble. Yeah. You may not know what you just got into. Okay. So let's focus on the, the power athletes themselves. There is an awful lot of classification within the Paralympic movement. Um, and it creates some friction from time to time, but what are the basic broad sweeps of the categories? Yeah, so the easiest way for me to explain it is to use the able-bodied sport as a model.

For example, we don't typically have men competing against women. That's a simple classification. That's a gender classification, men, women. classification. That's a gender classification, men, women. And then in sports like boxing and wrestling and other sports, we classify people according to their body weight. So we don't have a 250 pound wrestler wrestling against someone who's a hundred pounds. That just wouldn't be fair. So there's a natural weight classification. So We have gender classification and weight classification. In sport for folks with disabilities, it's a little bit more complicated because we have to make it a fair competition. So for example, if it was a hundred meter sprint, there is a big difference in the biomechanics and the physiology of a single leg amputee and a single arm amputee.

It just simply wouldn't be fair. Presumably, the single arm amputee would win every time because of the lower limb amputation. Similarly, it's unfair for someone who is a blind athlete to compete against somebody who is in a wheelchair. So in a 400 meter run, presumably the wheelchair racer would win every time because they're in a vehicle which would allow them to be faster in a 400 meter sprint. So we classify these athletes into these various categories. It gets complicated because we're still experimenting with how closely of the impairment can we have and still have competition. So I'll give you an example. Is it fair, and I'll just ask you this question, is it fair for someone who has a hand amputation to run 100 meters against someone with an upper arm amputation.

Wow. Yeah. So if I just asked you that question, you would probably say, well, no, it's not fair because the person with the hand amputation has a longer limb and therefore the person that has more balance, and they can control their movements much more easily. Right. So it's a very complicated system. It sounds very complicated.

So who makes these decisions? Is there a governing body that says, okay, let's... The International Paralympic Committee, I'm guessing. That says, look, yeah, let's make these decisions and then make sure that everybody adheres to them. Ultimately, it's the International Paralympic Committee for Paralympic sanctioned events. So that would be world championships. And as you guys know, March the 9th is the opening of the Pyeongchang 2018 Paralympic Games. Very excited. I'm going to be there for the whole time. It's going to be a great experience and we're going to see some great sport.

But ultimately, it's the International Paralympic Committee who has the responsibility for developing evidence-based classifications. Now, it's up to the sport to define that. it's up to the sport to define that. So the IPC, for example, is not going to tell snowboarding how to classify their athletes. Likewise, they're not going to tell field athletes how to classify their athletes. We let the sports do that, but we give them the context, the infrastructure to develop an evidence-based classification system. We're still working on it. It's not a perfect system, but it's as close as we've gotten in many decades. In your book, the title is quite interesting, Training of Paralympic Athletes. They don't all come in the same sort of package. Some may be hereditary, some through birth defects, some through traumatic

incidents throughout their life. How do you then work to get those athletes to a point where they can be Paralympians? And what sort of work do you do mentally and physically with these guys? Yeah, that's an excellent question because typically what you and I want to do is feel sorry for the athlete because he or she might have had a bad accident, which then led to a spinal cord injury, and now they're in a wheelchair. I got over that over 20 years ago when I first started working with Paralympic athletes and in my membership on the International Paralympic Committee, because truly these are athletes. They're not just someone who is in a wheelchair. They are wheelchair athlete. And once you get over that, well, you know, they're poor guys, they're in a wheelchair. Well, they don't want to be

known as the poor guys in a wheelchair. They want to be known as Paralympic athletes. So when you approach a Paralympic athlete with training and or coaching, you need to approach it as they are an athlete. And guess what? They want to win a gold medal just like any Olympic athlete. I mean, how much difference is there? There's some obvious differences in terms of abled-bodied and less abled-bodied athletes that you work with. Is there a great difference between the two in the sense of how the regimes are set up? I'm not talking about performance, but in the way that the regimes are set up.

Game competition? Is that what you're saying? No, it's the way that an athlete will prepare for a competition. Oh, their regimen. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's essentially the same as any other athlete. They approach their competition just like any other athlete. And again, their goal is to win the gold medal, just like the Olympic athletes we're seeing in the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics today. Those Paralympic athletes want to do exactly the same thing. They want to win the gold medal. So they're going to train as hard as any other athlete.

I do have to remember that they have a special condition depending on what kind of athlete they are. And some of them may be on life-saving medications. But they're on the same water rules as any other athlete. But they have to remember that there is an exemption for certain drugs and medications that they take every day. And they simply go through the therapeutic use exemption process like any other athlete might. So they don't fail drug tests. So it really depends on the type of athlete. And there's one condition that we're really interested in, the IPC is really interested in, and that is what we call autonomic dysreflexia. Simply put, that is artificially

inducing a high blood pressure. Now, these are typically in para-athletes, in wheelchairs. And as you know, it doesn't do a lot of good for blood flow to go to the lower extremity in somebody who's doing upper extremity kinds of work. So what they do, not all of them, and some of this is truly autonomic, it just happens. But some of these athletes will induce this high, extraordinarily high blood pressure to try to get more blood flow to the upper extremity. And if they can do that, the more blood flow to the upper extremity, the better they perform, or at least they perceive they better perform. The danger is that this autonomic dysreflexia, The danger is that this autonomic dysreflexia, this artificially raised blood pressure, could be as high as 240 over 140.

Whoa. For you and I, normal blood pressure is 120 over 80, right? And even as we prepare for physical activity, the systolic blood pressure, the top number, may go up as high as 160 or so. Systolic blood pressure, the top number, may go up as high as 160 or so, but the lower number, the diastolic blood pressure, generally remains about 80 if it's normal. But with autonomic dysreflexia, they have this reflex mechanism, which increases their blood pressure to the number that I just said. Extraordinarily dangerous because they can have a stroke. Yeah. Believe me, I'm a black man. I'm very familiar with that. Even if they do this on a temporary basis, the exposure to a stroke is high, is high risk, high category.

Extraordinarily high. Extraordinary, yeah. And the problem that we have with the IPC is that there's no real way to detect autonomic dysreflexia without taking a blood pressure. Right. So there's no way, you know, so for example, if your blood pressure was elevated, me looking at you or you looking at me, there's no way to tell if you have high blood pressure until we put a cuff on their arm and take their blood pressure. That's why they call it the silent killer. Yeah. So what we've been forced to do is to actually go into the warm-up area, observe the athletes,

and if we suspect that someone has artificially induced high blood pressure, we'll throw a cuff on them and we'll take their blood pressure. And if it's elevated, we'll take them out of the competition. Wow. So let me ask you this with respect to when we talk about the athletes themselves. Let's say somebody is playing a sport. They have a traumatic injury. And now they switch over to the Paralympic version of that same sport.

From a kinesiology standpoint, how difficult is it and what would they have to do mentally and physically to make that switch? Because I'm looking at some of the sports here, and even though it's the same sport, God, it just looks so much harder when you do it on the Paralympic side. I mean, it's like it makes the regular sport look easy. Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't have an experience with that, I would strongly urge your viewers to turn on to NBC. There's 94 hours of Paralympic coverage during the Paralympic Games, March 9th to the 18th.

And tune in. And one of those sports that you mentioned is wheelchair or quad rugby. And it's amazing that the majority of the players on quad rugby, this rugby played on a basketball court in a wheelchair, as violent as any rugby can be. Isn't it called Murderball? It was called Murderball. There'll be a reason for that, I'm sure. Coolest name ever. Yeah, and it's a great movie. I would suggest people take a look at that. It's a great movie.

It's about the American rugby team. But if you watch wheelchair rugby, you will be astonished at how violent it can be, under the rules, of course. But if you ask them, what sport did you play before you became injured? More than half of them will tell you that they played rugby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. event, what boundaries have they got to have gone through physically and mentally to then come back into, to reenter sport, knowing that they could never reenter it the way that they exited? One of them is thankful that they have a sport to go to that's similar to the sport that they

engaged in before they had their injury. Almost every athlete will tell you that same thing, before they had their injury. Almost every athlete will tell you that same thing, that they are so very thankful for the Paralympic Games that they have a sport that they love, happen to have gotten an injury. It may or may not have been related to their playing of rugby, by the way. Yes, agreed. Yeah, but if they did have an injury

and they love to play rugby as an able-bodied athlete, now they have a place to go where they can do the same sport in a wheelchair, but it's the same sport. Now, there's a transition. Anybody that has a traumatic injury like that, there's going to be a transition between, you know, here I am, a well athlete, I'm a good athlete, and now all of a sudden, I'm in a chair for life. You get through that transition, then you start thinking about, okay, I'm going to be in a chair for life, but what can I do with myself in a chair? And getting them back into athletics, getting them back into a sport that they love, for example, rugby. It does wonders for their psychological

well-being and their physical well-being. So when it comes to technology, I was watching some videos of very early Paralympic Games and then the games from last year. And God, it's night and day when you look at, one, how great these athletes are. I mean, it's unbelievable. These are real athletes, people. I mean, seriously, do not confuse them with, you know, I don't even know. They're just athletes. They're not Paralympic athletes. They're athletes.

The most inspiring thing you will ever witness in your life. It's incredible. But I also noticed that you see a lot of technology, like increases in technology. Where does that come from? Who's spurring that technology? And is there anything new on the horizon that you see that may be forthcoming that's good to look out? Yeah, well, the answer to that is yes, yes, and yes. Every athlete wants to win the gold medal.

And just like an Olympic athlete with his or her shoes or their outfit, they want to win the gold medal. They're going to do everything they can to win the gold medal. So it's the athletes who drive, for the most part, the technology. They will contact wheelchair companies, for example, and say, I want the lightest wheelchair you can develop for me. And, oh, by the way, I'll be your spokesperson, too. It goes a long way. Right. But you're absolutely right and one thing that I've been interested in is a disparity between countries and the technology. So for example

you probably saw in maybe in London where you saw these carbon legs on some of the athletes. Yes, the blades. Athletes didn't have access to that. And so you have to ask yourself, well, is it the technology that won the gold medal for them, or was it their athleticism? So what I've been interested in lately is to decrease the disparity between developing countries and developed countries.

All right. So if you look at developing countries, for example, in South America and in Africa, they don't have the same technology as the Canadians and the Europeans and the Americans. So we're working very closely with companies to say, hey, look, we really want these athletes to become part of the Paralympic family. We want it to be fair. We've developed classification systems, but now we have to look at the technology. We need to put everybody in the same kind of chair. We need to give everybody the same kinds of legs. We haven't gotten to that point yet. Still driven by economies of these countries.

We're also finding that through the Agitos Foundation of the International Paralympic Committee is helping financially these developing countries and bringing in the technology for their athletes. Wow. But the desire is there, doctor. The desire to have an egalitarian level playing field, no pun intended really, is there. And I think that is the true Olympic ethos, to achieve that, to allow everybody to be able to compete and let the best win and move on. And be fair.

And be fair. Absolutely. Absolutely. So is there anything that you'd like to leave us with because we're out of time, but we'd love if you have a final punctuation that you'd like to put on this. We'd love to hear it. Yes, absolutely. March 9th to March 18th, tune in to NBC TV, 94 hours of coverage,

including the opening ceremonies and the closing ceremonies. If there's one sport that I would suggest everybody watch, that is the gold medal match. It will be the U.S., I think. The gold medal match in sledge hockey. It's hockey on a sled. And it is every bit as exciting as stand-up hockey. it is every bit of as exciting as stand-up hockey. Yeah. And if not, if not, um, even more because unlike regular hockey, uh, these guys propel themselves with the sticks that they use to shoot. It is unbelievable. And they check each other. I mean, it's, it's the same as hockey,

except that it's on a sled and I mean, it's fast, it's exciting. It's physical. I think you're absolutely right and I would love to see the US come home with the gold on that so fantastic doc fantastic. We are going to take a break enough wittering from me fabulous to have the good doctor Dr. Walter Thompson with us to explain so much about the Paralympic movement when we come back it's snowboarder Mike Shea yeah Paralympic silver medalist from the Olympics. And if you are interested in that ice sledge hockey. Yeah.

Oh, how about a double Olympic champion? One of those two. Taylor Lipset. If you want to know what it takes to be a double world champion, stick around. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice.

And this is Playing With Science. Today we are talking about winter Paralympic sports. Yes. We've just heard from a world leader in the field, Dr. Walter Thompson, in our previous segment. So let's get straight to the business end, shall we? And joining us now is Team USA para-snowboarder Mike Shea. Mike.'s get straight to the business end shall we and joining us now is team usa para snowboarder mike shea mike hey welcome to the show hey how's it going thanks

for having me i really appreciate it oh you're welcome i'll just to give mike his props yeah gotta give him his due man silver at the uh paralympics in sochi snowboard cross which as we've seen is a bit like NASCAR on snow World Championship Gold in 2015 Bank Slalom World Championship Bronze in 2017 snowboard cross

and in 2012 in snowboard cross so pretty creditable guest wouldn't you say I'll say just a little bit yeah

he might know what he's doing he'll do yeah exactly we could have done much worse hey Mike

you ready for Pyeongchang? Yeah. I hope so, man. It's been a really incredible year prepping for things and traveling on the World Cup circuit. Had a pretty good season. I came home with the World Cup overall title in Bank Slalom. So I couldn't be more prepared for the games. I just have to stay healthy and make sure that I have the right mindset moving forward.

Oh, I'm sure you have. Yeah, we know you got the right mindset, man. You know, doing the research on you, you're a beast, dude. So what is, what is the criteria? Okay. So the other things with the health and the mindset, so what is the criteria for a para snowboarder? And I've got to do this, an elite athlete like yourself. Well, you mean like in terms of selection criteria,

like what it takes to be on in the games or on the US team? All of the above. So the criteria for US Paralympics to be on the US national team, which gives you the ability to have funding from the USOC and all of the perks such as training at the Olympic training centers and having wax technicians and personal trainers, you have to be, it's pretty hard to be on the US national team. For us, you have to be top five in the world. And we have three athletes who are ranked top five in the world in our division.

So it's a really competitive field. And luckily on the national team and then to make the Paralympic team, the criteria is a little bit different. You had to have so many podiums within the last, I think, 12 months or so in order for you to make the games team. Somewhere in there, I'm not exactly sure. I just know that I did what it took for me to make the team this year and tried not to pay too much attention to that stuff. All right. See, that's the mark of a true athlete right there. I did what it took and I try not to pay too much attention to it. Hey, can you explain what adaptive snowboarding is? I saw that term keep popping up and they never

explain it. They just keep saying adaptive snowboarding and all the, you know, in the videos and in the reading, can you explain what that is? Yeah. So adaptive snowboarding, uh, it's, it's basically snowboarding and the adaptive before it is just, uh, explaining the differences between regular snowboarding and us, which is basically we just use adaptive equipment. So we're snowboarders with disabilities. Some of us are below knee amputees. Some of us are above knee amputees.

We have disabilities such as cerebral palsy and we just use certain adaptive equipment to help us snowboard. And for me, it's a prosthetic leg. Aside from that, everything is almost identical. We use the same snowboards, we use the same bindings, we use the same gear. Everything else is almost identical. Cool, cool. So I know that, and we're going to get into your story in a second

because you have a really, a pretty compelling story. But one of the things that you were into before you pretty much gave up your life to do the, be a Paralympic champion, you were into woodworking. And I want to know how did that happen? Where did your love of woodworking come from? And then you gave it up to go and do this. So how did that decision come about? Yeah, man, it's just like everything in life. It just sort of just, you know, you all of a sudden take these different paths and you end up on these roads you never thought you'd be on. And I never thought that I'd be a woodworker, let alone a professional furniture builder. But one year after, it was after my amputation and I was really trying to find my identity and figure out what I enjoyed doing. I built a doghouse for my dog in the backyard that he never used, by the way, but I really

actually enjoyed building it. That still bites, doesn't it? Pun intended. It does. He never used it, but it looks good. It's where I found my love for woodworking. But you had some celebrity clientele. You weren't just making unused dog houses. No, and I was lucky enough to have worked for Rick Installation Company. Rick is the last name. Rick Anderson Installation Company. We did window coverings, motorized window coverings and things in these high-end homes. And so I already had a connection with that clientele and those designers. And then for me to be able to have my furniture and do jobs in those same areas, it really worked out for me. So here you are, you found this love of woodworking

as a result of injury, and you were already an athlete and you were already into, you know, a love of the sport. But why don't you give us your story? I don't want to put it in my words. You can put it in your words. And tell us exactly what happened and how you ended up with your injury, which was very traumatic. And I'd love to know the psychology of what happened to you and how you transitioned. Yeah, man. I, you know, at that time in my life, I really, you know, I really wasn't in a place that I really was comfortable with.

I was hanging out with the wrong people. I was drinking a whole lot and partying. And in my mind, that was a time where I should have really been focusing on school and thinking about what I was going to do for the next phase of my life. But that really all changed for me when I was at the age of 19 in 2002. And I was out wakeboarding with friends. I was sitting on the railing of the boat where I probably shouldn't have been sitting. And the boat was headed to the other side of the lake for better water. And we hit a crosswalk. And all I remember was just being thrown off the edge of the boat and into the water and it all happened so quick that I didn't really have a whole lot of time to think but I remember

feeling the rope wrapped around my neck and the back of my arm and knowing that that rope was still attached to the boat because we were just wakeboarding moments before um so I thought to myself you know I better get this unraveled from around my neck and my arm before it tightens up because it's not going to be pretty. I got it unraveled from my neck just as it sliced through the back of my arm, then cinched up around my ankle. I just heard this loud noise. I didn't really know what it was at that time because it was so quick and so sudden.

Sometimes when you cut your finger with a knife and it's really sharp, you don't even feel it. It just happened so fast. I remember getting up to the swim deck when my friends came back around to pick me up and i got on the back of the boat and i saw that the water around me was just red from all the um and i the moment i lifted lift my leg out of the water and saw what was left it was pretty obvious to me that it was just it was completely gone it was mangled um and then i that's when i knew my life was pretty much going to change forever so it was chaos after that so from that point we're moving forwards upwards onwards very positive or was there just this what now or did

you think right i've got to get to do something that achieves or how long did it take to recover from that yeah yeah and um and i mean I mean, of course you have physical rehab, but mentally as well. Yeah, mentally as much as anything. Yeah. You know what? What's strange is mentally it was so easy for me to get back on my feet and just say, you know what? I can do this.

I think that's because I had the family and the friends and the support system that I'm so grateful to have. But physically for me, it was like I wanted to get over it right away and I wanted to get back on my feet, but physically I couldn't keep up with my mind. And so it took quite a bit of time. Luckily, I was able to get back on my feet and snowboarding within a couple of months. But that's still, you know, I even struggled after that for quite some time. And even after that was still back into prescription pain medication and masking some symptoms with the use of Oxycontin and Vicodin.

Wow. Yeah, which is common for people with hepatitis. You went on a journey. You really did. So when, from that point, do you realize, I've actually got something to offer as an elite snowboarder? Yeah. And you really did give up everything and put it all into this sport. So how did that come about? That's a line.

You must have stood there in front of one side of the line and thought, do I want to be on this side or the other side? Yeah. That's it man and for me the turning point was honestly like i went years after my amputation where i really couldn't figure out where i wanted to go and what i wanted to do with my life and it was the day that i decided to get clean and sober and i checked myself into rehabilitation and i spent i think 30 days in patient rehab i got out and i made that decision that from this point forward I'm going to live my life clean and sober healthy and I want to be back to being an athlete um that I started traveling the world

competing on the world cup circuit and having this successful career in snowboarding it was after I made that decision that like you said I want to be on this side not on this side and from that point forward everything just kind of was was free running well we're thrilled the clarity of your story went in telling it is superb and i'm sure congratulations to you for being able to to make that step and then put yourself in a position where you're an elite stage um because of our show the nature of our show we like to focus on science are you conscious and we've actually done a snowboarding show with a professor of skateboarding and also Dr. Skateboard, if you don't even know him. Dr. Bill Robertson, wonderful guy.

And Othello Clark, who's a professional snowboarder. They were very conscious of the physics and science involved in snowboarding. Are you of a similar ilk that you are very much aware of what is going on when you do your thing let me tell you man i get so sometimes in depth with um technical aspect of snowboarding and what it takes you know maybe not like down to the specifics but when it comes to my prosthetic equipment and my binding setup um and playing with different things to get the snowboard to react a different way i am always up for science when it comes to that stuff. And it's like that with woodworking too. So it kind of relates to it. How have you found with your prosthetic that you've had to be loaded

more towards one side than the other, or have you been able to find something that is truly balanced? It's never truly balanced because it's not like your real body. And so you're always constantly trying to figure out a way for your prosthetic to achieve the same thing that your real foot had. And for me, it was about putting a wedge underneath my heel so that I can kick my knee forward and do a more natural body position that I was able to finally get to work. Necessity, the mother of invention.

Absolutely. decision, but I was able to finally get to work. Necessity, the mother of invention. Absolutely. It's funny, I said to Dr. Thompson earlier in the show that it really looks like every single Paralympic sport is harder than the regular sport. I mean, when you look at what you guys are doing, it just, it's, it just has to be harder. Am I, are my eyes deceiving me or, or is that the case? It just looks harder, man. Yeah, no, we've got to overcome the public stigma of what it's like to be an adaptive athlete for one. But number two is, is we're having to use adaptive equipment to make, make it work and every day

I use science and I use prosthetic legs in order for me to achieve the same thing that a normal snowboarder would achieve every day. How do snow conditions affect you differently to someone with both legs? Snow conditions are the same as far as the way that it affects someone with disability and someone without a disability conditions are the same cool mentioned something you had uh you would have access as an elite athlete to the what did you call them wax technicians yes this sounds a great idea having watched a little bit of the olympics in pyeongchang i'm going to realize how much more important that is depending on conditions and in certain stages in the structure of the course itself, particularly on the cross.

Big time. And that's when you really get into the science of things. We have a wax technician for the US team. His name is Mark. We call him Skitty. He actually spends hours and hours every evening laying down a base coat of wax on our snowboards. After he lays down a base coat the very next day, he takes snow temperatures at all the different parts on the race course because it could be

colder at the top and warmer at the bottom. But not only that, there's different moisture contents. And then he applies what's called the fluorocarbon wax. It's an overlay that goes on the base of your board. And so the board actually has a little, they call it structure. And so there's these little microscopic lines that basically makes the snow and the water beat off the board. So when you put on these, these plastic fluorocarbons in between those little structures, when it's laid on top of the snow, it accelerates instead of slowing down. And so nail it right um it can be a wax race and and the course in pyongchang for the able-bodied athletes

was so straight at the bottom yes um it was definitely a wax race for some of those guys you really had to have your technician nailing it otherwise you can win or lose a race by almost a full second or two you know what wax you have that was the i5 was that right they're calling it the i5 but the start for me kind of freaked me out it was like there was a whole lot of snowboarders and the gates opened and they're on a balcony and they've got to drop nine foot and then all of a sudden they've got these other this technical aspect of the race right at the beginning where there was one boarder just got trapped as if gravity just went nah yeah suck them down wow them there the start is actually to me although it looks intimidating it's it's probably a little bit easier than some of the more um uh speed parts of the course which

is down below for me every athlete's a bit, I've always been more of a fan of technical start sections, but man, that course definitely looked challenging for a lot of those guys. Yeah. So you are, I saw pictures of you with your blade on and you're running track, you're snowboarding, you're clearly an athlete, you know, like just an athlete's athlete. Do you, do you plan on like branching out or is it like, you just love this so much? One, do you still wakeboard? I mean, I'd be interested to know that. And two, do you feel like you want to do any other things because it's clearly you can

do them? Yeah, man. I've always loved being a part of all kinds of different sports and And I've kind of always liked being a jack of all trades. And just just diving deep into different things that I've never tried before and trying to master that. So that's why I like so many different sports. I do wakeboard still occasionally. I at that time, I had a lot of friends that own boats. And so it was really easy for me to be able to go out and wakeboard. But these days, it's not as it's much harder to come by. So I don't wakeboard as much. But I do. I wanted to do track and field for a little while on the Paralympic side. But, you know, that takes years and years of training. And the focus has always been on snowboarding. And so my thought was just just finish this year in Pyeongchang and get my snowboarding finished before I start any new endeavors. And we'll see where that takes me. If it's summer sports, I would love to be able to do that. Cool, man.

Cool. Whoa. We are with you all the way. How about that? Summer and winter. Summer and winter. Paralympian. There you go.

Wouldn't that be the – well, you know what? I wish you the best of luck with that. That's incredible. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. Hey, man, we're out of time, but hopefully, you know, we can have you back to talk about your next chapter of whatever it will be.

And I'm pretty sure the next time we talk to you, this is going to be a little gold happening, you know? Let's hope so. You know, I'm just saying, I'm not trying to ditch you or nothing. I'm just, you know, I'm just saying like, you know, probably, but you know, gold's my favorite color. That's all. I'm just letting you know. Me and you both. Me and you both. There you go. Mike Shea,

you've been an absolute honor, sir, and the very best of luck in Pyeongchang. Thank you guys very much. I appreciate it. Pleasure's ours. Take care. Yeah, man. We're going to take another break.

Awesome. From one inspirational Paralympian, we're going to be talking to another one this time. Taylor Lipset, an ice sled double gold champion, a man who played on the US team for over a decade. It's going to be worth listening to. Stick around. Intense. Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I am Chuck Nice chuck nice of course he's still playing with science and today we're taking a trip to the winter paralympics and from snowboarding to ice sledge hockey and

we're now joined by two not one but two-time gold medalist taylor lipset taylor welcome to the show sir pleasure to have you on board yeah thanks for having me today. I look forward to talking a little about sledge hockey with you guys. Okay, now there's a little bit of embarrassment, possibly not. You might like the idea of me telling everybody that you were on the U.S. national sledge hockey team for 11 years. You won gold in Sochi 2014, gold in Vancouver in 2010. And on your way to achieving those two magnificent feats, you got bronze in Torino, Italy in 2006.

You're a six-time world champion medalist. Wow. Six. That's many. Yeah. Yeah. Many. And he was tri-captain of the US national sled hockey team

between 12 and 13. Have we done you justice, sir? By all means, yes. Fabulous, because... Yeah, man. I got to tell you this sport, Taylor. So watch a couple games. One, congratulations on being a maniac.

You guys are crazy. Okay? Thank you. Just let me say that. Okay? But the game looks grueling uh what is what is the toughest part what is the toughest part of this game i would say the toughest part is just that it's so dynamic uh you know you're obviously using both your hands to propel yourself in the sled

to skate you're using both your hands to pass and shoot uh all while someone's trying to take your head off. Right. So it's just a very dynamic sport. You know, having to be ambidextrous, having to use your core to balance on the blades underneath the sled. And like I said, all while someone's trying to take your head off. You know, it's a lot of fun, but it's definitely hard work. You can have to do a lot, an awful lot of explaining about me losing my head and the fun bit. From a distance, it sounds bad.

Actually, in proximity, I might not have enough time to worry about it. I don't know. So apart from obviously what's been listed, what really was the attraction of sledge hockey for you? For you personally, yeah. For you, your story. Yeah, I mean, one of the main things is that I was just a hockey fan in general. And so, you know, the Stars came to Dallas, which is where I'm from, Dallas, Texas, in the 90s. And they won the Stanley Cup in the late 90s when I was a kid. So, you know, hockey was kind of growing in the North Texas area and I was on board.

I used to play street hockey with my brother and my friends and somehow they always put me in that and just, you know, sat me sideways. So my chair took up most of the space. And so, you know, when I had the opportunity to try sled hockey for the first time, you know, I immediately fell in love with it. You know, it's, you know, one of the first things that most athletes will tell you is that it got me out of my chair. It got me on a level playing surface with everyone else that was, that was playing the sport. And that was a lot of fun and, you know, really appealing to me. And then, you know, like I said, once the sled hit the ice for the first time, I immediately fell in love with it and it kind of took over my entire life from 2000 on or 2002 to today, really.

So it was actually the ability to be competitive on a par with the other athletes on the ice that really drove you into that. Without a doubt. Yeah. When I was growing up, I never played disabled sports or anything like that. But I was a huge sports fan. I was growing up, I never played disabled sports or anything like that, but I was a huge sports fan. I was athletic. And so that kind of part of me being able to compete, especially as part of a team, was a void that was always kind of missing. And so, you know, again, getting out there with the local sled hockey team here in Dallas, you know, filled that void finally. And when I started learning more about the sport and learning more about the Paralympics and you know what the opportunities playing the sport really had uh you know like I said it just started to consume me as a person and uh became my lifelong passion now you you you have a brittle bone condition right which does which again let alone the taking the head

off thing yeah that condition is sinking. Why? But you've explained a lot of good reasons in there. The challenges that you faced in terms of your training, your conditioning, your strength, everything else that you would require, what were the big hurdles you had to clear to achieve the status you have? Really, the biggest thing was just figuring out what kind of style I wanted to have as a player. You know, everybody on the team has their role to play. And, you know, it was figuring out where I fit in, where my best chance was to contribute to a team success. And so I obviously wasn't ever going to be the most physical player. I wasn't

going to be the enforcer. I wasn't ever going to be the fastest because, you know, I've got both my legs and, you know, APTs for the most part hold the title for the fastest skaters. So I really just had to develop my skills and figure out where I could really contribute. And so I really focused on my puck handling skills and my shooting abilities. And, you know, luckily that provided me the opportunity for a 10 11 year career on the Paralympic team hey do me a favor because it just dawned uh to dawned on me that you know we're talking about the the sport and maybe people don't know what we're really talking about because uh like I said and for those of you listening as soon as this is over you need to get to like a YouTube channel and just look at some of the games.

Prepare yourself for the Paralympics coming up on March 9th. Stage hockey is going to be the one thing that you're going to hear an awful lot about. Am I right, Taylor? Most definitely. That's without a doubt the most popular Paralympic sport for sure. And I would go out on a limb and argue one of the more popular Paralympic sports overall. Yeah. So can you explain to the listeners what the game is and just kind of describe to them how the game goes down?

All right. So the game of sledge hockey at its heart is just hockey. Same rules, same playing surface, five-on-five skaters, goalie in each end. same playing surface five on five skaters goalie in each end um the only difference really is how we skate how we propel ourselves um and to do that we have custom-made sledges or sleds that we call in the u.s and you think about it they're kind of shaped like a u-shaped dolly uh would be and then each player has a bucket usually they're custom custom made at the Paralympic level, but a custom made bucket that we sit in that's mounted to that U-shaped frame. And then we just take the blades off of regular hockey skates and mount them onto a custom made bracket underneath the bucket. And, you know, that's our skate. That's how we get around on the ice. And then

instead of having one stick, like standup hockey, we have two sticks. And on the end of those sticks are metal picks, uh, that are very, very sharp. And what we dig into the ice to propel ourselves. And then the opposite end is the blade, which is what we use to pass and shoot with. And like I mentioned earlier, you can use both hands to pass and shoot. You can go underneath your legs, uh, sitting in the sled. Uh, so, you know, lots of opportunities to be very skillful and do a lot of crazy things with the puck and the sticks and that sort of thing. And like I said, it's extremely dynamic. It's tons of fun. It's extremely fast paced. I think that's one of the big things people are most surprised about that are seeing it for the first time.

Super fast. And then second is the physicality you know it's it's hockey so it's full contact yeah and one thing i always point out to people is that in sled hockey we're sitting down on the ice and the boards at the bottom uh don't give when you hit them right the top of the boards are made to give a little bit when stand-up hockey players are checked into them but the bottom of the boards are not made to give, and they are solid. And when you've got players skating, you know, 25, 30 miles an hour, when you're getting rammed into those boards full speed,

it's essentially like being in a car collision with no car. So you can just imagine, you know, how physically demanding it is. And, you know, it's a big part of the game. We did a show. Remember we did a show on ice hockey, stand-up, as you've educated me to call it stand up hockey and up hockey it's not a contact sport it's a collision sport yeah and this is exactly it's the same thing with sledge hockey it's it's it's a collision sport it's unbelievable how for the faint-hearted like myself i mean it's i i watched it and i was just i i and me, Taylor, forgive me. But I got to be honest, I'm watching this online and I'm just like,

these dudes are effing crazy. Like, oh my God, what is going on? No, I think. What is going on? No, you come away with a healthy respect. Yeah, man. That's, without being sycophantic, you come away with a healthy respect for the athleticism that goes into the game.

I take you back to the point we're talking about the sticks. Are you able, like a stand-up hockey, to get kick points and to use the stick itself to then drag across the ice and give yourself an extra boost when you're shooting? Or is it a more rigid setup? So, yeah, it's definitely more rigid. Or is it a more rigid setup? So, yeah, it's definitely more rigid. So you mean like, yeah, the flex and the stand-up hockey sticks where they can really put them under load and then they kind of whip. Yeah, so there's not that in sledge hockey.

The sticks, at maximum, they can be 100 centimeters. Most players don't have them that long. But, yeah, when it's that short, you're not going to get a lot of that flexibility in the shaft. And so, you know, it's really all about using your shoulder, your elbow. And, you know, surprisingly, a lot of players use their feet or their lower extremities to help whip and get some force behind that. Oh, they create torque. Exactly. The science is there. It's incredible.

Absolutely. It's incredible. Absolutely. It's incredible. The top shooters in the world are definitely shooting close to 70 miles an hour with one hand. Yeah. It's just unbelievable to me. Imagine you've got stand-up hockey with the kick point. You're able to employ an awful lot of science and force.

No. Everything's got to come from the player themselves everything's got to be self-generated even more impressive yeah i always tell people in stand-up hockey they've got they're using both hands they're using both legs and the flex and the stick to get those shots off and then yeah in sledge hockey you've got one hand no flex and if you've got one hand, no flex. And if you've got, you know, legs, you can try to use those for that extra torque. But yeah, it's definitely all coming from that one, that one arm for the most part. And it's incredible to see players like Billy Bridges from Canada, who probably has one of the hardest shots in the world to see him rip a shot off. It's just,

it's unbelievable. So when you talk about your training for, uh, and you're practicing, uh, I noticed, so you guys shoot with both hands, uh, you have to train to be ambidextrous in this sport. Uh, how do you go about doing that? Yeah. So, I mean, just like what you just said, you train both hands all the time, you know, no matter what you're doing, you're always using both hands, trying to create that equality in strength and flexibility on each side. And then it's just really about practicing, you know, on the ice with the puck, using both hands, being able to stick handle and shoot and that sort of thing. And, you know, that's really what separates the good players from the great. It's those players that can stick handle with both hands, can shoot and pass with both hands. And you'll see in the

Paralympics coming up here next month, you'll quickly be able to see the players on the ice that can do that. And you'll notice how much they stand out against everyone else. Do you look down at this? I've got to rephrase this. How do you look down on the stand-up hockey guys? But how do you feel superior? There we go. That's better. Do you feel superior when you are ambidextrous in the way that way that you play and say well duh why can't you be right yeah yeah it's actually funny a lot of uh sledge hockey players will train with stand-up hockey players or uh practice with

them just to get you know additional uh training in and you know one of the things we always hear is you know it's funny they'll say you know that's not fair you're using both hands and it's like well that's not fair you're using both legs but it really throws them for a loop you know when they try to poke check you you can just flip it over to the other hand or you know when you're going in on the goalie and you can just switch back and forth until you find the hole that you want and just rip it off with either hand it really throws the goalies for a loop as well. Do you get respect from the stand-up guys? Do the NHL guys turn up and look at you and go, yeah, we get this? Without a doubt.

Without a doubt. I've gotten to get on the ice with Tyler Sagan of the Dallas Stars a few times. And he's said on multiple occasions that sledge hockey is the hardest workout he's ever had in his life. And that's coming from an all-star NHL player. Has anybody ever thought to, because I want to see this, to actually... The wolf's again on you. What's that?

I know where you're going. Go on. I got it. To have a, you know, kind of an exhibition game where you take stand-up hockey players, and I'm talking from the NHL, and put them on the ice on your turf or on your ice, on your terms. Has anybody ever done that? Because I would love to see that game. Yeah, yeah.

It's actually happened a few times. I don't know that it's necessarily happened with an entire NHL team. Okay. I know for a fact that NHL players have gotten out there. I know for a fact that there has been entire college teams get out there and play sled hockey programs from around the country um and so there's a lot of that going on all the way down to you know little kids getting out there in sleds and playing youth sled hockey programs that's pretty cool isn't it

that is very cool for the nhl guys to to say yeah we'll do this yeah and embarrass themselves that way no no no no no you're gonna kick their you. I think it's, it's a kind of like, yeah, it's the brotherhood of the hockey family. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And the sisterhood. Sorry. I will. I must add that too. Yeah, that's right. We've had professional female hockey players on this show, so we can't forget them. I have to ask you before we, we sadly let you go. Yeah. What was it like to be crowned world champion not once but twice it's unbelievable i mean you know you you think about the the entire time that it took for you to to get to that point all the people that supported you all the sacrifices that you made your teammates

that you made uh you know commitments and promises to to to work your butt off to be prepared for uh the paralympic games and then uh you know, to be able to accomplish that goal twice in a lifetime is just something you can't put into words. And I know it sounds cliche, but, you know, the best feeling in the world is being on the ice, you know, arm in arm with your brothers, your teammates out there singing the national anthem. And, you know, those are two memories that I'll never be able to forget.

Wow, that's super cool, man. That's just super, super cool. Hey, I know, those are two memories that I'll never be able to forget. Wow. That's super cool, man. That's, that's, this is super, super cool. Hey, I know you're retiring and we got to let you go, but I'd like to know what's going to happen now for you, Taylor. Are you still going to be involved in the sport? Without a doubt. Yeah. 100%. So I help run a program here in Dallas, a club hockey program. So that's, that's a lot of fun, but I'm also on the board of directors for USA Hockey, so staying involved on the national level as well. And something that hasn't been released to the public yet but will be here in the next week is I'll actually be commentating

for NBC for the Paralympic Games coming up. Sweet. Oh, awesome. Sweet. That's fabulous news. Yeah. Hey, man, congratulations. Yeah, and enjoy it. Sweet. That's fabulous news. Yeah. Hey, man, congratulations. Yeah, and enjoy it.

Yeah. I don't think they could have made a better choice. Yeah. It's going to be a blast. Yeah. Well, what a pleasure, man. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, guys. Oh, no, the pleasure's ours. Enjoy your travels to Pyeongchang. Have a great time. And I no doubt you probably want them to come back with gold. So let's see what happens. What a pleasure. Thank you so much, guys. All right, buddy. Wow, that's unbelievable. See, you can't say Paralympic world champion, Paralympic gold medalist without world champion gold medalist. Yeah, I think I'll take the other

bit out and just go world champion gold medalist. Yeah, yeah. I got to tell you, for the listeners, you have got to get yourself to YouTube and watch some of these games. They are just, it is so intense. Make it part of your Paralympic package. Taylor says they're dynamic, and I love that word. It's like there's a, that's a euphemism, you know what I mean, for like balls out, okay, that's what this, because that's what this sport is. It's going to be cold, that's, that's a euphemism, you know what I mean? For, yeah, for like balls out. Okay.

That's what this, cause that's what this sport is. It'd be cold. It's on ice, Chuck. Just thought I'd mention that. Probably should be moving on quickly. Quickly.

Well, that's our show. Thank you so much to all of our guests, Dr. Walter Thompson from the international Paralympic committee to Mike Shea, our snowboarder, who will be joining Taylor Lipset in Pyeongchang. Only he will be snowboarding while Taylor will be commentating. Yes. What a fabulous adventure into the para-athletes world.

That's right. Yep. Hope you've enjoyed it. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm still Chuck Knight. And this has still been Playing With Science. See you all soon.