StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Women’s Boxing, with World Champion Alicia Ashley

Episode Date: April 11, 2019

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. What does it take to be World Champion? How can women’s boxing gain more popularity? Can you be a fighter and a trainer? Hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly step into the ring with World Champion Alicia Ashley, astrophysicist and boxer Federica Bianco, and former Olympic-style boxer Cary Williams.Photo Credit: CES boxing (CSB photography). Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. Last year, we had the privilege of speaking to boxing legend Sugar Ray Leonard, which was such a pleasure and a big deal for the Playing With Science family. So it's only right to share the stage with the women. And we've got some seriously heavy hitters for you. An astrophysicist and a professional

boxer. Yes, Frederica Bianco. Golden Gloves Hall of Famer and world champion Alicia Ashley. And boxer, trainer, entrepreneur and philanthropist and founder of Boxing and Barbells, the one and only Carrie Williams. So round one, Chuck, who's first in the ring? Right now, we get to speak to boxing's badass. That's right. We're talking professional boxer and astrophysicist, Frederica Bianco. How are you? I am good.

You bring the world of boxing and astrophysics together. What a perfect, it's like you were made for playing with science. That's right. It really does sound like I'm much made in heaven. It really does. So let me ask you, you know, when you look at the cosmos and you look at the ring, are there any areas of boxing and astrophysics that overlap in such a way where the two inform one another or that they're very similar? No, I mean, hard to say that they will be very similar, but of course they inform each other. For me, both of them have to do a lot with my confidence and my self-awareness and my ability to sort of analyze things.

And I learn from one and from the other, and I bring back and forth the experience of one and the other. In the boxing ring, my nickname is The Mad Scientist. So I wish I could say that I'm really an analytical and scientific boxer. I'm not. At heart, I'm really, really a brawler. But the skill in the sport is that of staying calm and analyzing. So that's very close to physics. like stay in common and analyze things.

So that's very close to physics. So, Frederica, is it correct you were a dancer as well as a martial artist before you became a boxer? Is this true? I was not in the sense that I was not a professional dancer, but that's how I started, yes. My path to the ring came through dancing and then capoeira, which is sort of like a dance-inspired martial art, and then boxing. You know Alicia Ashley was once a dancer.

Oh, yes, I do. And when we spoke with Sugar Ray Leonard, he talked about the choreography. He talked about how it is a dance. And it's a performance. And that actually is really a key point that people might not think it might not come through as we are aware of that in the ring but at least as far as i myself and i know that's true also for alicia like you also want to think about it as a performance right absolutely so now that you said that since it's a performance and it requires a great deal of concentration, it would seem like boxing just takes so much concentration, almost to the point where you got to have tunnel vision and block out so many other things.

give you an edge in terms of that concentration since like the scientific disciplines require so much concentration and kind of just training your thoughts in one direction would you would you would you say that's the case or have you ever thought about it so i think no i think about these things a lot really uh but i think that the the tendency and the training in problem solving is what helps me sort of thinking about martial arts in that way. So that perhaps works a little bit more clearly in the training than when you're actually fighting. Because when you're fighting, don't get me wrong, it is like a puzzle that you're trying to solve, right? How do I take advantage of the things that my opponent is doing to get an edge? of the things that my opponent is doing to get an edge. It might not be obvious when one is fighting because it looks like very chaotic from the outside.

But as you said, you really need to be sharply focused. And on the inside, it is like sort of a surprisingly calm place. I've heard it from some other boxers describing how things sort of happen in slow motion while you're fighting. And you kind of have a very, a part of you is kind of like very analytical and calm and cold observing what is happening, which is, of course, not what it looks like when you're, you know, you have somebody that is trying to take your head off. I see when I was reading before we get to speak today,

you describe yourself, and I love this, as a student of life and say that you see boxing as a mind-clearing experience. You're going to have to explain that more, please. Right. So just what I said about the fact that it's all about being collected and calm in spite of the chaos around you it's sort of very meditative in that sense very nice yeah so let me ask you this i mean for women boxers um which I see that boxing has really grown in popularity because of the training and the workout. So it seems like every gym now has a boxing workout that they offer.

But you need so much more than that when you're training for a fight. And steel sharpens steel. So how do you find your sharpener in a sport where there's not that many participants? That's a very good point. So when I started boxing, I was in California. I was in Santa Barbara. And there were far fewer opportunities to spar with women in Santa Barbara. So it was regularly sparring with guys.

And, you know, there's advantages to that. Guys tend to be faster. Their punches tend to be a little bit more stingy. So that kind of gives you an edge. But also there's disadvantages because of the level of intensity and the competition is a little bit different, given that there is already a well-known and acknowledged difference in the mind of the people that are sparring. In New York, it's kind of a blessing that there are many women.

So, you know, I met Alicia because I started sparring with her when she was getting ready for her fights. We all know each other. We all spar with each other. You very often end up fighting people that you certainly know and that sometimes that you have sparred with. Of course, you're only as good as, you know, as you can be as the people that train with you, right? It's not an individual sport in spite of what it looks like. It's very much a team sport. And your training partners, your sparring partners are very much part of the team. Interesting.

So what would you say to anyone, not just women, but anybody who's interested in boxing that might inspire them to try it? might inspire them to try it? So I think, you know, as you said, it's getting more and more popular because of the fitness that is involved. It is a tremendous fitness exercise. It really taps on a lot of things like sort of, you know, a lot of parts of your body are involved. So it's a very healthy exercise for your entire physiology. There's a lot of cardio.

And also there is the aspect of the focus, which makes it more intriguing than just doing physical exercises. As far as boxing competitively or anyhow getting in the ring, everybody, you know, people that train boxing should try. Everybody, you know, people that train boxing should try. Because in my experience, the feeling about it is very different than one expects it to be. And it goes both ways. I've heard people say like, you know, I'm getting in the gym just for training and be like, no, because I want to become a professional boxer. So I see my trajectory like three years. I want to be professional. And getting punched in the face the first time and realize how a big mistake that was, that they just did not at all want to have anything to do with that.

But at the same time, people that do not think of themselves as fighters, that do not think of themselves as aggressive or competitive in that way, really isn't. That's not the feeling that you have inside the ring. So it has a very different feeling from the inside than it might look from the outside. And I've seen people that never thought they would just fall in love at first punch. Wow. I mean, I must ask you, Federica,

just how tough is it in the women's boxing scene? Because it's nowhere near on a par with the men's side of the sport. So how tough is it for the women? So like the business side? Everything, all of it. So, well, let's say it's getting better, but it begins with you've got to find a trainer that wants to train you.

So somebody that believes that women can box. Not everybody believes that women can or should box. Also, boxing is a little bit of an old school sport. And so not every trainer is even considering training a woman. And then if you want to box seriously, like if you have aspirations of becoming professional, et cetera, you have to find the trainer that is rather selfless because there's not a lot of money.

So it's not like they're going to make a living out of a woman boxer. It's just right now it's not happening. So you have to find the trainer that does it because they love it and because they like you. And once you pass that, you know, something that obviously people ask me, but they really should ask you to any woman professional boxer is how do you do two jobs? Because nearly all women professional boxers also have a day job um generally it's not astrophysics but make no mistakes uh very few women can sustain themselves uh with boxing and if they do they sustain themselves with boxing by also training other people etc and the two jobs is not the problem. The problem is the third job

that most women have to do of finding themselves fights or provide opportunities and traveling for sparring and finding, you know, just the enormous amount of efforts that it takes to get contracts and just be sort just be taken seriously.

That is their job, and that's the hardest one of all of them. Is it quite simple just to say the solution would be if there were more money in the sport? I don't think we need more money. We need women to get paid better, sure. Yes. So if there was a bigger purse, for instance, if there was more money on offer women to get paid better sure yes so if there was if there was a bigger purse for for instance if there was more money on offer for the fighters then the trainers would get more

money then you'd probably get better trainers is it simple as that or is it more is it more nuanced no i think it's more nuanced i think you know it kind of like goes back to women in sport all together there is a um in perception that that's not something that people want to see at the level of the performance uh and i think that perception is in my experience is largely wrong people you know there's not a lot of fights on tv but the women but now there are many more fights on tv than before and um those fights are watched with high ratings. But also every time you go to a show, like a small club show in Queens or whatever, and there's a women's fight, you hear it all the time.

The women's fight was the most entertaining bout of the night. Because partly maybe because it's so hard to get to the point where you finally have a fight that you're not going to phone it in. You're just going to put your heart in it because it's a hard way up. Right. So that might be part of the reason but the women fights are always entertaining.

They're always like you know going gung-ho and just really working hard at that fight. So what, now you. So female fighters in MMA, they seem to have become a lot more popular. What is it about, do you think, MMA that makes the female fighters so much more popular in MMA?

No, it's just the fact, the exposure. I mean, MMA, Dana White has started off saying, like, no, women are not going to fight in my, in the UFC. They're just, I'm just not going to do that. And then he changed his mind, put women on cards. The fights were watched. People liked them. He put more women on cards

and made a business decision that just worked. I think it would work for boxing. I think some of the boxing business were starting to see that, right? Obviously, Clarissa is just worked. I think it would work for boxing too. I think some of the boxing business world is starting to see that, right? Obviously, Clarissa is televised at every fight, but there

are many other fighters that get some less, but some exposure. All the recruits from the first Olympic Games with women. It's changing slowly. So it's changing slowly. And it's changing, at this level, it's changing for a few, not for sort of like the bulk of women boxers.

Hopefully, it's just a matter of time. Cool. So it's just a matter of exposure. How long? Because some of the women have been waiting a while now. If you think about Alicia's age, which I won't mention because she will punch my lights out. But she had to wait a while for things to come her way. I mean, how long do you think?

And every time she needs to get a fight. It's hard to get a fight. And she had to wait a long time in between fights. She never fought in Jamaica, which is her hometown. And I know that that was a really big desire of hers. So I don't know how long. And I think, you know, there's always the risk that it's a bubble. There were bubbles of women boxing in the past with Christine Martin, Leila Ali, and

Lucia Riker, who's one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. And then the bubble burst and women were not boxing on TV for another, I don't know, 15 years. So hopefully this is not a bubble, but it's hard to say how long. Wow. Frederica, thank you so much for being our guest and opening our eyes.

Oh, wait, I have one more question. You got one more? I got one more. All right, one more time. Let's do it. All right, here we go. You're an astrophysicist. What planet would you love to fight on?

And what planet would you hate to fight on? Ooh, okay. I really don't want to fight on Venus because it's kind of hot up there. Mm-hmm. Fighting in a sauna doesn't sound good at all. How about Saturn? We can hop between ring particles, all the particles

that make the ring and just have one fight on each one of them. It's fighting in a different kind of ring. Right on. Yes. That's right. Now how about that for a little bit of logic? From one ring to another. Federico Bianco, thank you so much for being our guest on Playing With Science.

Thank you so much. The astrophysicist who is also a professional boxer. Yeah, that's just quite a combination. We are going to take a break. Next up, Kerry Williams, the boxer, the trainer, the Olympic level trainer, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Yeah, that's going to be another great interview. And, of course, don't forget we have Alicia Ashley coming up as well.

Stick around. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Playing With Science. I've just been speaking to Frederica Bianco, our astrophysicist and professional boxer. I think now it's time to take a slightly different turn into the world of women's boxing. This is Carrie Williams this time, former Olympic-style boxer, Olympic-level boxing coach, boxing club owner, cover model, speaker,

entrepreneur, philanthropist, and behind boxing and barbells and the brand Never Too Pretty and Never Too Pretty Movement. Hashtag Never Too Pretty Movement. So a lady with not much time on her hands. When do you sleep, Carrie? My goodness. What do you just take a cat nap between the hours of 6 and 6.30?

Lots of cold brew. All right. Power naps. So I have to ask you, what personally attracted you to the world of boxing? Well, it's kind of a backwards story. When I got out of college, I actually have an environmental science degree. So, yeah. But growing up, I was always an entrepreneur you know selling you know mistletoe

door-to-door or whatever and i didn't want to work for the government and you know i did it for like a year out of college and i was like this isn't for me i can't sit in a cubicle um i want to own my own business and i wasn't sure what that was going to be and i had a friend in high school and uh he was a professional boxer and he would always tell me, oh, you know, I go to the boxing gym, but there's no, you know, treadmills, there's no weights. And then people would try to come into the boxing gym to work out or just pushed away because you either came in there to be a fighter or you didn't get to train. So I thought, wow, there's no gyms out there where the average person could walk off the street and just do boxing as a workout, but really learn boxing, like legitimately learning.

So I said, I'm going to open a gym. Nice. And yeah. And back then, the Internet really wasn't like it is now. This was 20 years ago. And so I went and bought a book called Business Plan for Dummies. And I wrote a business plan. And I went for Dummies and I wrote a business plan and I went to a bank and I got a small loan I got an SBA loan that's a long story but I opened my first

boxing gym in 1998 and uh so I had never boxed before that I actually was not even into fitness I was terrible at you know I hated PE and was not an athlete. I was more of an academic girl, the straight A girl, the scholar, not really a scholar, but I was smart. And so that's how it all started. Wow. So let me just take a second. I got to rewind this tape just back to a little bit and go right back to the statement. I sold mistletoe door to door. Okay. Because by the way, I tried that and people just said, get out of here. You're perfect. Yeah. There'll be a reason for that, Chuck. I put bows on it. You did it, baby.

That's it. That could be it. But no, seriously, I read a couple reviews about you. That's it. That could be it. But no, seriously, I read a couple reviews about you. And here's what they pretty much all said. This woman is awesome. She doesn't teach you how to get into shape. She just teaches you to box and getting into shape is the result. Is that just your philosophy? Is that, yeah? Absolutely. Absolutely. Obviously, I'm passionate about the sport. It's my love. And I respect the sport entirely. So even if somebody comes to me and they say, oh, I just want to lose weight, or I just want to get in shape, and I heard boxing's a great way to do it, you're going to learn how to fight. Whether you step in the boxing ring or you don't,

it doesn't matter. You're going to learn the same way I train all of my fighters. So that is my philosophy of training. Wow. That's really cool. That's really cool. So I must ask you, sort of poach a gamekeeper thing. How different is it from being the fighter to being the trainer? to being the trainer? Well, you know, being a fighter is, well, I was a trainer before I was a fighter. So again, it's pretty backwards. So the gym got busy. I needed to help on the floor. So I became a coach. And then after that, I thought, well, it's kind of hypocritical to be a coach and never have stepped in the boxing ring. And, you know, I can't be a hypocrite. So then I started to compete. Now, stepping into the ring was a little easier for me as far as the nerves, because being outside of the ring and having a fighter in the ring,

you get very nervous for that athlete. And so a lot of that was taken away from me. So when I stepped in the ring, I wasn't as nervous. And being in the ring is when you do it over and over again, it's like being in like a slow motion movie, like you're in a movie, everything is slowed down. So punches coming at you, they look, they appear to be coming slowly so that you can react. The naked eye outside the ring is looking in and going, wow, that's really fast. But you're seeing it like, and that was quite an experience.

It's very strategic, obviously too. It's like playing chess in the ring. Coaching outside of the ring is super rewarding. I find coaching more rewarding than, than competing because competing is for me. Coaching is for somebody else and being able to do something for somebody and change somebody's life in a really positive way. Uh, that's, I mean, you can't put money on that. Nice. By the way, I see punches coming in slow motion, but they land anyway. And it ends up being that it ends up being that shot

where the guy's cheek collapses under the fist and then the blood spurts get, yeah, you know, that shot. Yeah. That's the shot. That's the money shot. Okay, let's go back to the slow motion Peckham Power movie boxing. Are you not able to train your mind? Because I can't imagine for one second these things are slow, right? It's just not. I can't get my head. But you must be training your mind to facilitate how you kind of distort the time to slow these down. You know what?

I think it comes from controlling your adrenaline. And so you're doing something repetitively over and over again. And then you're in that situation, that fighting situation in your face, you, you know, first, you know, when you're first training and you're sparring, you're fighting, you're, you have a lot of adrenaline, right? Someone's trying to beat the crap out of you. But doing it over and over again, you start to learn how to control that. And so now you're not just very anxious and nervous. It's more of a relaxed thing. And so for some reason, it slows everything down like inertia, maybe. So it's, it a relaxed thing. And so for some reason, it slows everything down, like inertia maybe. So it's very interesting.

Wow. That's pretty wild. Isn't it? That's pretty wild, man. So what was the hardest thing? What for you was the hardest aspect of boxing? You said you started to coach first and then went into the ring yourself. But what is for you the hardest aspect

as a fighter or as a coach either or both uh let's see as a fighter the hardest thing for me well there's two things one is i don't like to get hit um and the other thing is that the training the training is so hard for competition. I don't like running. And you have to do a lot of running for conditioning. I don't mind sprints, but I don't like the conditioning of the longer runs. So, yeah, I didn't really like that part of it. I love the part of being in the ring and being strategic.

You know, oh, I'm going to faint. I'm going to make them do this, and then I'm I'm gonna counter with this that was really enjoyable to me um coaching wise there's not a lot that I don't like about it because I'm in control of it so if it's repetitive and it's for competition then it's always rewarding to see them do something a gazillion times and then they finally get it uh but I mean, as far as coaching, I can't really say that there's anything I don't like about it. Wow. When you talk about stamina and training and that endurance, are there any other things that you can do aside from running? Like for instance, I have terrible knees.

I can't run at all. What if I'm not speaking as a fighter, just speaking as a lay person, a regular person. What if I wanted to build up stamina? What else could I do other than running, which puts that pounding on your knees? I would say probably getting in the pool and doing sprint work in the pool. You know, other than that,

that sprint work has to happen. I've never honestly tried it with somebody who has had such issues to where they couldn't do the sprint work, but I would, I would gather that if, you know, because they're fighters. Yeah. I was going to say, they probably shouldn't be boxing. Like, I don't know so many boxers that get in the ring. They're just like, listen, my knees are shot to hell. So I'm just saying. Oh, Chuck, you'll find any excuse. And then we always say like a fighter with an excuse is not really a fighter, you know, so. And I have a similar saying. I have a similar saying. And that saying is, I'm not really a fighter. There you go. Funny how that works out. Hey, so listen, you do all this other stuff. I

mean, and before we started the show here, I was talking to you about something that I saw online about you and it's called the weight loss show, which I thought was just incredible. Now, full disclosure, I didn't get a chance to look into it the way I wanted to. And so I thought you had had a baby because you had all these great shots of you beforehand and you were all cut up and looking great and super fit. And then all of a sudden you were overweight and out of shape. And then you were all of a sudden fit again. So what was that weight loss show?

What was that all about? It was called Fit to Fat to Fit. And the premise of the show, it was on Lifetime. And I think it's on Amazon or Netflix now. But the premise is that you gain as much weight as you can as a trainer, as a trainer, gain as much weight as you can in four months, and then lose all of that weight in four months. Now, the reason to do that was that you were to have a friend or a family member who needed to lose a lot of weight. And so the idea was that you kind of step into their

shoes so that you can understand what it's like to work out and lose weight and the challenges that you face as an overweight person. Um, so that's why I did the show. Um, it took a lot of coercing for them to get me on the show. Cause I really did not want to gain weight, but it's funny when I did gain the weight, people thought I was pregnant, but they wouldn't say anything. Cause they were like, but then after I lost it, they were like, oh my God, I thought you were pregnant the whole time. So. Yeah. Yeah. I'm one of those idiots. Yeah. So there you go. That's exactly what I did. So let me ask you, so now you're a little bit more empathetic to people who have gained weight and you've had the experience like documented psychologically. Okay. Cause I think

a lot of weight loss is psychological. So psychologically, what's the best advice you can give to somebody who's struggling right now? They're like, I want to look better. I want to feel better. And I can't just seem to do it. It is all mental strength. No matter who it is, how much weight you need to lose, what your goals are, it is all up in your head. So until you get your mind right, you will never, ever get your body right. Damn it, I'm never going to get my body right. Your mind is wrong. No, it's really just mental. It really, really is. And you have to set that in your head. It's like, you know, when they say when you hit rock bottom, and all of a sudden you're like, boom, I'm going to do it.

And nothing's going to deter me. You have to get to that point and you have to be strong and you have to have will, power, obviously. But all those things, it's just in your head and you have to just do it. And I know it's like, well, oh, well, isn't there an easier way? Isn't there a trick? Isn't there some magic fairy dust I can put on me and it's going to help me figure it out? There's really not. It's just if you really want it, then you do it.

So, I mean, that's what I got out of the whole thing. What can you do? My friend who is a really close friend of mine, she had a lot of weight to lose. We worked on her losing the weight and she lost a lot of the weight, but there were, I mean, the show's all about drama, right? I mean, there was some drama throughout that process because there were so many times where she was just, well, I really wanted to eat that burger, you know? Oh, well. And then she would have an excuse as to why she couldn't get to the gym. you know oh well and then she would have an excuse as to why she couldn't get to the gym so it's really you have to be dedicated to what you want it's your life right if that's your goal then you have to you have to make those struggles and sacrifices to get there it is amazing how many times on this show that same thing just keeps coming up from all these athletes everybody that we talked to gary was a professional footballer. And, you know, it just seems like this is just the theme that just runs through every single thing

that has to do with sports and fitness. Yeah, it doesn't change. No, it's all in your head. Well, there's plenty of room up there in mine um i must i must ask you why are why is the sort of boxercise the boxing regime exercise program so attractive to women well i truly believe that it's because it's empowering I mean it is a lot of women were very fearful to to come to like when I opened my first boxing gym 20 years ago it was open to everybody but it was still mostly men that were coming in and it was really a challenge to get

those women to take that step in they were very scared of it oh people are just hitting each other you know there's this idea that you know even to watch boxing people go, people are just hitting each other. You know, there's this idea that, you know, even to watch boxing, people go, oh, they're just hitting each other. It's brutal. They don't see the beauty behind the sport. You know, they don't see the science behind the sport. They don't see all of that. They just see two people and they're hitting each other. So it was challenging at first to get women in. And now, you know, as we started coming into the sport, then we get more media coverage and, and then women go, Oh, wait, she can do it. You know, they look at somebody who might be petite or, or whatever, uh, very feminine and they go, Oh, wow, she's in there and she's a badass. And I want to be that. And so it really helps to bring more women into the sport. And

then once they taste it, forget about it. You know, that's it. You know, they're beasts. Like it's just super empowering. It makes you feel really strong as a person in general. It makes you feel accomplished. And that's why I truly believe in teaching the sport and not just as a workout,

because sure you feel accomplished after you do a great workout, but how much more accomplished do you feel when you actually learn how to throw a proper punch? You learn how to slip a shot. You learn a combination that's realistic to the game. So it is super rewarding. There you go.

Before we go, and we will be going shortly, I'm sorry to say, your philanthropy work, how does that come about and does that still have its roots in boxing oh well it kind of does i mean i used to have um a non-profit up north where we uh worked with a lot of youngsters in the boxing world of course a lot of kids who couldn't afford training or travel expenses for tournaments that sort of thing uh now i have um, through the two pretty brand, we have a nonprofit also. So it's a female empowerment brand. So it's really kind of bringing those girls into, um, themselves. Like they go, I'm a, I'm a girl, but I can do anything I want to do. I'm not, you know, I'm not in this gender box, so to speak. Uh, so I, I work with

that. It's, it's a movement more so than it is anything else. And it's really just kind of a message to send to the young girls. You know, as far as more philanthropy, I mean, I've done a lot of it. Absolutely. I did a knocking out obesity tour and toured the country and worked with middle school students for a whole month teaching them boxing. So I have done a lot of that. Right now it's more so just kind of being that person that's on social media that's encouraging the young girls and the women to do whatever they want to do regardless of what gender they are. Cool.

That is cool. Yeah. And I think the more people that take that baton and run with it, the better. And it's a fabulous message. And I think the people we've been speaking to on this show are exactly the kind of people that they can look up to. And the work that you're doing will maybe increase those numbers. And, you know, the world of boxing will find people come out of your classes or classes like that and actually pick up the gloves and step into the ring for real. Yes, absolutely.

It's a beautiful sport. That's the sweet science. There you go. So we're going to take another break. Thank you to the wonderful Carrie Williams and an insight into another stream of the world of boxing. Now, coming up next, a world champion and a Golden gloves hall of famer none other

than alicia ashley i know you're not going away i see you shortly Joining us now is Alicia Ashley, former WBC female world super bantamweight champion. And this blows me away. The younger sister of chess grandmaster Maurice Ashley world super bantamweight champion. And this blows me away. The younger sister of chess grandmaster Maurice Ashley and former world kickboxing champion Devin Ashley. You're a multi-title holder when it comes to boxing, so we'll take focus and bring it on to you. World champion.

Yeah. Still. What drew you? Still world champion. Absolutely. That's a world champion, baby. Still. What drew you? Still world champion. Absolutely. That's a world champion, baby. You got to love it. Come on, that feels good.

Like, okay, I have a friend. His name is Judah Friedlander. He is a comedian. Right. And he wears a hat that says world champion on it. And his whole thing, and people used to say when he was on stage, like, what are you the world champion of?

And he'd be like, everything. Oh, dear. used to say when he was on stage like what are you the world champion of and he'd be like everything oh dear you well i'm i'm one or two things one or two things right on that's one or two things more than me yes um you came to the sport of professional boxing relatively late but what drew you into the ring what was it for you um it wasn't that I was drawn into the ring it was that I I kind of needed something to do I was a professional dancer and that was my goal when my brothers were doing martial arts I was dancing So when I got injured and I couldn't dance anymore, my brothers finally was able to get me into the sport of karate. So I really had no interest in boxing. I just kind of fell into the sport. So now it's funny because you say dancing and then boxing, but the two do have some connective tissue. Sure. There is a definite correlation because it's funny when people see me boxing, they say like I move like a dancer because there's a lot of movement.

And that ends up being my style. I'm more of a boxer than a puncher because of that. ends up being my style. I'm more of a boxer than a puncher because of that. And you know, that's always the big argument between the two types of pugilists is the brawler and the boxer. And the boxer is the person who's light on their feet. They're up on their toes.

They're using the ring. They're using the perimeters of the ring. They're creating positioning with their body and making their opponent kind of position themselves, put themselves out of position. And then the brawler is like, hey, I'm going to fight you. I'm going to fight you right now. And I love fighting brawlers because they come at you. Right. And that's the whole reason.

They will do all the work for you. And you just have to make sure you can hit them before they get to you. Okay, so now you've touched on strategies. And now you're thinking about the science using an opponent's momentum and their velocity towards you as what they think is an asset. And you're turning it around to make it the disadvantage and an asset for you. So I'm thinking your brother is a grand chess master that is all strategy your other brother the kickboxer which one taught you the most well it's funny because uh devon um and his last name is actually cormac sorry we apologize for that for that. He will turn it back on me

if I don't correct that. He's the one that actually got me into the sport. And he got, and he'll tell you also that he taught Maurice how to play chess. So his claim to fame is that he got us both into our prospective sports. So I'm going to say that Devin is actually the one that has been the most influence on me, but I also learned chess.

So that is a main strategy that is an integral part of my boxing too. So how much of that chess strategy did you bring to your boxing in the middle of a fight? Well, I think for me it's a majority of my fights. I'm always thinking a move ahead, how to get them in a certain position so that I can punch them or if they adjust, I should

be two steps ahead of them. For me, it's like I've got to really place you in this position. You might think you got there on your own, but it's really me. Nice.

That is a chess match, to say the least. That's also a martial arts thing. The biggest deal of deception to allow you to go for something you think is there, and then either way, it's not. Exactly. Exactly. This is why this lady was world champion. Oh, definitely.

Yeah. This is why this lady was world champion. Oh, definitely. Yeah. So in your training, I'm interested because these things do interest me. Was your training old school, hard miles, skipping rope, or did you employ new techniques, new technology? Are you one of those people that embraces the new? I hate weight training

like hey so i did it a little bit but um the the thing is that even though i don't look like i'm getting older my body was telling me that i was. I had the problems from dance. I started getting in boxing, which were torn meniscus. I had torn meniscus and now I have it in both knees. So my training actually had to change because of that. There was no more running. So I had to find a different way to get my stamina going. So what did you go to?

Well, things like burpees. Yep. Which, by the way, I hate burpees. You hate weight training. I don't know how you do burpees. I hate burpees. But the fact of the matter is it actually was the best thing for me. And I hate saying that that but it is an

entire body workout and it had helped me um especially in my last fight my last fight was uh march at age 50 wow and the one thing that i could say is that i had the conditioning to go more than the 10 rounds. Oh, now let's talk about conditioning. Yeah. Because that seems to be the kryptonite for most boxers that should win, but don't win. They lose their legs. How do you know that you're properly conditioned for a fight?

And what do you have to do to get to that place? I think it's also twofold. The fact of the matter is a lot of them are trying to lose weight before the fight instead of already being in or on weight weeks before the fight. So if you are perpetually going up and down in weight, when it's time for you to fight and you have to worry more about losing weight than focusing on the fight, then that's a major problem. So I maintain my condition even when I'm not fighting. So most of the times I'm only three or four pounds over the weight that I fight at. So after that, it's just working on condition the entire time. So that's your background as a dancer talking there. That I see the conditioning physically of doing routines,

doing everything that you need to do to keep yourself in that shape, then facilitates to doing the same as a boxer. But you can have the best condition in the world but if you don't really feel like it that day it ain't happening so how do you condition your mind to be able to take your body to the places it needs to go wow that's a great question um the funny thing is that my mind is always there yes you cannot you're not always in the fight and that's the hardest part of it. But, and I'll say that as a dancer, you know, the show must go on. So you still have to work past that. And I always consider my fights, not as fights, but performances.

And I always consider my fights not as fights, but performances. That's an interesting take on that. That's a very interesting take. Yeah. And by the way, let me... Because I'm the principal dancer, everyone is watching me. That's right. All eyes are always on you. And let me take this opportunity to say to all the dancers who are out there listening or not,

to say to all the dancers who are out there listening or not that dancers are some of the greatest athletes that you will ever encounter, period. I agree. So, you know. Not because you're here. I would have said that anyway.

Just some props to dancers. The ones that can't even box, we got to give it to them too. For sure. Yeah, but they could kick. Yes, they can. Yeah, I don't want to find out if they can i just know they can oh what what would you say your biggest challenge has been over the course of your professional career um it has been hard to uh maintain that same level of, I'll say, interest in the sport.

Because, yes, a lot of times I do not feel like training. And the older that I get, it's harder to maintain that same desire. Especially because I know that I don't have to train as much to get the same out of it cool but you gotta keep doing it training for my training now it's like I have to have a purpose when I was younger I didn't it's just like train as much as you want the fight comes along but now it's more focuses and is on when are you getting me a fight? When am I fighting next? So that has been hard to maintain that same sort of desire to fight. Wow, that's funny. The trajectory of your training has been the exact same path as the trajectory of my partying.

So when, have you set a date when you've said, that's me out, or are you just going to do your thing and let it go where it goes? I think me ending up in China kind of is pushing me on that because I wouldn't have taken this job if I still had so many fights. And the thing about it is that I wanted for me to stay in the game. I need at least three fights in a year. For the last three years, I've just been fighting once a year. And that's not enough to sustain me.

No, no, i understand so because of that it's like okay i'm slowly weaning myself out of the sport and being on the other side which i have been a trainer for the last 15 years but now it's uh kind of just forcing me out of it so where are you looking for your boxes down school or in a gym uh No, they come to me. They come to the gym. That makes sense. Let me ask you this. You're a champion, a world champion, five times.

To anybody who wants to be a champion, what is it that you have to do to be a champion? What is the championship stuff? What is it? I definitely think it's psychology. because a lot of people want to do they'll go oh I'm but you know it's a lot of work but you can put someone in the ring and they're like oh after the first you know hit or so I'm coming back and then you know a lot of people think that just winning makes you that winner, and it doesn't.

It's when you lose, that's where you know how much that person wants it or how strong a fighter they would be if they can get back up and go back in. So I don't place so much emphasis on winning. I put more on you being able to turn around and come back after you've lost. Wow. Great, great words. I've just remembered something and correct me if this quote is wrong, but you were asked to give advice to any up and coming female boxer and your advice was don't get hit. Is that correct? Well, I mean, that's a big part of it. I'm just, now, the second part of this question is, have you managed to take your own advice?

Looking at you, I'd say you did pretty well. I definitely have managed to keep that advice. And the thing is, and I'll say this, I've never been knocked down in all the years that I've been fighting. I've never been knocked down, never been knocked out. I've had losses, and I'm happy with that because it makes me the person that I am. Because I can come back around. I've lost in WBC.

That's when I came back and won it again at 48. So the losses dictate how my wins will be. So you and I have something in common. I've never been knocked down in any of my fights either because you can't knock down somebody who is running away from you. Knew you were going to do that. Just knew you were going to do that. Don't worry, Alicia, you're going to be able to catch him,

or me for that matter. Alicia, we have got to the end of this interview, and we are thrilled that we had the chance to spend some time with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Alicia Ashley. Thank you for inviting me. Oh, thank you.

I love the show. Yeah, thank you very much. So there you have it. Our boxing special with three very, very interesting women boxers. Different sort of approaches. The philanthropist, the entrepreneur in Carrie Williams. The astrophysicist who clears her mind by boxing. That really is something. And of course,

the one, the only, undisputed champion of the world, Alicia Ashley. It's been a fabulous, fabulous show. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as Chuck and I did.

And we look forward to your company very, very soon. So that's it from Playing With Science. Until the next time.