StarTalk Radio - #ICYMI - Wrestling with Physics, with Neil deGrasse Tyson

Episode Date: February 28, 2019

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. What’s the best wrestling move? Can you wrestle in zero gravity? Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice hit the mats as we sit down with astrophysicist and wrestling expert Neil deGrasse Tyson to answer fan-submitted questions about the science of wrestling. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. A Cosmic Queries episode, and one you have been demanding for so long now. We just had to give you what you've been asking for, which is a wrestling show with none other than your favorite personal astrophysicist.

I don't know if I'm their favorite, but I'm definitely their personal astrophysicist. I don't know if I'm their favorite, but I'm definitely their personal astrophysicist. You're our favorite. We're going to call you the great grappler. There's someone who publicly said I was their favorite astrophysicist, and it was Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton called you her favorite astrophysicist? Publicly.

And I said, Hillary, how many astrophysicists do you know? And she was like, you? You, that was it. So, yeah. No, she knows quite a few. I don't know. Yeah, believe me. I'm going to keep you? Yeah, that was it. So, yeah. Now, she knows quite a few. I don't know. Believe me. I'm going to keep you elevated on that pinnacle.

So, before we get into our listeners' questions, and there have been so many, and thank you, can you just give us a very basic overhaul of wrestling for people like myself who know there's two guys, a mat, and that's me tapping out. Two guys with a skin-tight singlet on. That's why I watch.

The two reactions were different to the two of you. You had me at singlet. So, yeah, I don't make a big deal of this, but I used to wrestle. Yes. Yeah, I wrestled. I was undefeated in high school. Wow. Captain of my team. Wow. You went to a nerd school, though. I went to a nerd school.

Oh, way to go. Damn, Chuck, I had him going for a while. No, but you wrestled in college, too, right? I went to college, and then I found out that there are people who... I went to college in the Northeast, and we wrestled people from the Midwest.

Wow. I'm talking about some corn fed wrestlers. Ooh, farm boy. Farm boy hauling cows. Yes, exactly. But Elsie needs to go to the other pasture. I got her. Exactly.

They came into the match with a cow over their shoulders. Just like, where should I put this? So it was like, okay. So I actually had a losing record for three of my four years of college. But for me, I enjoyed the sport, whether or not I was winning. And when you lose, it's like, you lost.

You can't blame anybody else. It's not, oh, you didn't catch the pass that I threw you. Or you slipped on a thing, or you were in pain. It's all you. It's only you slipped on a thing or you were in pain. It's all you. Right. It's only you out there. And I loved the purity of the accountability of that sport.

Yeah. Teach you much as a person, as a human being, other than a sportsman, as an athlete. Did I what as a... Did it teach you? Teach me?

Yeah. Did you glean any lessons from wrestling that you took into your life as a philosophy? I'm the... Oh. Yes. Yeah. Did you glean any lessons from wrestling that you took into your life as a philosophy? I'm the... Oh. Yes. I'm the only person I grew up with

who's never actually been in a fight. 100% of everyone I grew up from elementary school through middle school. Because that's where it kind of matters. That's where, yeah. Everyone, guys, has been in a fight. I've never been in a fight. Is that because you wrestled them instead of fighting them?

Come here. Full Nelson. So, Full Nelson is not legal in wrestling. It is not. Half Nelson though? Yeah, totally half Nelson. And there's a power half Nelson. Whoa.

Power half Nelson? Yeah, there's a power half. That sounds a lot like half Nelson. Whoa. Power half Nelson? Yeah, there's a power half. That sounds a lot like full Nelson. Yeah. So, for me, wrestling was a place to deposit all of my sort of testosterone energy that might otherwise manifest in guys just being cantankerous in the real world.

Like, for example, you've been at an intersection and somebody cuts somebody else off. And if someone starts screaming, it's going to be some guy who didn't want to... Hey, I'm walking over here. Yeah, well, nothing long, buddy. Right, so in those moments, I'm just calm and peaceful. And, oh, you want to cut me? Fine.

You must be in a bigger hurry than I am. That's how I feel when I'm carrying a gun. Chuck. No. I'm very, very calm when I'm carrying a gun. I'm very calm. Smith and Wesson beats four of you every time. People are just like, you better watch yourself, buddy.

And I'm just like, thanks. You have a great day, too. Didn't take long to go there, did it? No, no, no. So I'm just saying I was, I think of myself as a peace-loving, calm person. I don't know if having wrestled pulled that out of me. I don't know.

The bit about not being able to win every bout, did you take that with you through to the rest of your academic career? Okay, so these setbacks, how do I equate this now? To me, they weren't setbacks. They were learning experiences.

Thank you. There you go. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's true. The person did something faster than I could react to. They had a move that combined with another move that I didn't see coming. And it's like, whoa, that's good. That's good.

And when I see some wrestler... I call this one the egg beater. Did you name any of your moves? Yeah, I did. I have them. Oh. Yeah, yes. Want that now?

We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Plenty of time. Yeah. You know, the night is young. But I'm very... Okay. I'm interested to know.

Yeah, yeah. So I had a move that I never actually executed, but it had a name, and one day I want to do it. Sweet. I'm too old to put it. Volunteer. Well, I could totally do it on Chuck. I'm talking about in a real situation.

Thanks for that vote of confidence. I meant no disrespect to your... No, Chuck, I meant no disrespect. I was just pointing out the obvious. Get closer to this mat. So to lose is to learn. It's not to... To see some wrestlers get angry

and kick the chair when they came up. They might be angry with themselves, perhaps, but still, I view them all as learning experiences, as do rocket launch people. Okay? If the rocket explodes on the launch pad, they say, oh, how did you handle that failure? No, that was a launch rich in learning.

Right. We learned so much. As long as you have enough diagnostics in the launch, cameras and sensors and things, what you don't want to do is ever make the same mistake twice. There you go. Right. That's a problem.

It's interesting. You know what? That's failure. That's failure. That's failure. Thank you, sir. Making the same mistake twice is failure. Anything else is a learning experience.

Making a mistake that's never been made before, and I can move the earth. That's it. Take it every time. And if you live a life where you never make a mistake, you are not on the frontier of anything. Right.

There's a similar comment from, was it AJ Foyt or Mario Andretti, one of the great racing drivers. Yeah.

It is, I'm paraphrasing, it's, if you're in control of the car, of your car, you're not in the race. You've got to be. There you go. You've got to be.

If you are in total control of your car, you are not in the race. Yeah. It's driving on the edge that makes you win. Correct. Just that little, we don't know how this could go. Right. So it's interesting.

By the way, I think some skiers feel that. You go down some slope and there's a tree there, a rock, and you're making... And so do off-road bikers. Yeah, yeah. Motocross. Motocross, right, right. Every instant is a decision you're making

so that you don't die or you don't topple. That'll focus your attention. Like the guy on the old Wide World of Sports. I believe they called him the Agony of Defeat. Yeah, that was his name. Yep, that was his name. Agony of Defeat. The thrill of sports. I believe they called him the Agony of Defeat. Yeah, that was his name. Yep, that was his name. Agony of Defeat. The thrill of victory. And the agony of

defeat. And then they showed that guy coming off the... Oh, by the way, just a little bit of physics in that. In that ski jump? May I? Yes. So it's a ski jumper who... The fact that he kept sliding? Yes. It was a good thing.... The fact that he kept sliding... Yes....was a good thing.

We don't have the proper understanding of injury in an accident. Okay? All right. Okay? On YouTube, there's a series strung together. I'm sorry, this is not about wrestling, but you took me there.

You took me there. Well, we're wrestling with physics now. Go ahead. There's a string of videos, and it's called, And They Walked. Oh, wow. Okay, so these are car race wrecks.

Really nasty wrecks. Okay? And every case, they're going 200 miles an hour, right? And the car tumbles, bursts into flame, and just keeps going. Keeps going. A quarter mile down the track, comes to a rest. The guy...

Gets out. Gets out. Right. Why does he get out? Because it going a quarter mile down the track, comes to a rest. The guy... Gets out. Gets out. Right. Why does he get out? Because it took a quarter mile to change speeds from 200 miles an hour to zero. Right. What kills you is not how twisted the wreck is, although it can kill you if you're not in a roll bar.

Mm-hmm. What kills you is how quickly you decelerate to zero. Right. Yeah. That's what kills you. Yeah. Quarter mile, no problem. Wall. Wall, problem. Problem to zero. Right. That's what kills you. Quarter mile, no problem.

Wall. Wall, problem. Problem. Problem. Right. That's why you look at people's comments

when Dale Earnhardt died. Okay? Tragically. His car hit the side of the... It stopped instantly. Instantly. When I saw that,

I said, he's dead. He's not walking from that. He went from 200 miles an hour to zero in one instant. In an instant. Okay? That's what you're not going to survive. Wow.

But it didn't look bad because you didn't see the tangled, twisted wreck and tires spinning, bouncing down the way. And it's why high jumpers land on pillows instead of on cement.

That makes sense. Because it delays how long it takes you to slow down your speed to zero. Right. And of course, there's not an inexhaustible

supply of high jumpers. So, sports, you know, that's why you want absorbing, this is the feature in the Volvo car.

The Volvo has crumple zones. Crumple zones. Okay, so you don't just stop instantly. Right. The energy gets dissipated over that time and within the crumpled structure of the car itself. Nice. How do we get there?

Okay, so... Why did you change? Why did you distract me? I seem to have gained a blame somewhere along the line here. The burden of blame has come to my attention. So we've gone from crumple zone to a mat, a wrestling mat, right? Which then has its own little compression. That's a nice segue.

So I'm old enough to remember when the mat was really this cotton surface with a tarp over it, basically. So you got a lot of skin burns on that. Sure. And then they perfected this rubberized texture that now is what you find on all mats. It's maybe an inch or two thick. It rolls out.

No, it's not, but it's very well designed. Okay. So... You don't want it to be nice. Sorry, I'm telling, but it's very well designed. Okay. So... You don't want it to be nice. Sorry. You don't want it to be a real comfort zone when you get thrown to the mat.

No, you want it to be like, you know, tempur-pedic. Yeah. Actually, I want you to throw me down and I want to be like, okay, it's nice here.

I'm going to take a nap. Let's rest. I'm going to nap. So, yes, there is a, it's one or two, maybe one and a half inches. I forgot the exact dimension,

but it comes out in big rollers. You roll it out, tape it together. Yep. And there is a, it's one or two, maybe one and a half inches. I forgot the exact dimension, but it comes out in big rollers. You roll it out, tape it together. Yeah. And what's good about it, you get traction on it, but you can also slide across it. It's the best combination of the two. This was one of the problems with the early turf for football. Yeah.

Right? You don't want it to stop you on the spot because then you'd rip out your knees. Right. You want to have a little bit of give, but not too much give like what actual turf gave. There's an optimal combination of those two that minimizes injury.

We're on about the fourth generation of those. Yeah, sure. Right, let's get to some questions. Our listeners will be thrilled. And the first of that turf was called? Astro. Astro turf. And you know why?

Because it came from outer space. Because it's material. I don't know where it first appeared, but the first place I knew it appeared was Houston, Texas. And Houston is the first word spoken from the moon. Of course. Because, of course, Houston. Well, it's the Houston Astros.

Houston, we have a problem. Houston Rockets. Houston Rockets. This is where you get these names. Because Houston is the Johnson Space Center. It is the command center for the manned space program of NASA. There you go.

Affects the names of everything. Whitney Houston, we have a problem. Said, who's her boyfriend? Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown, yeah. All right. Question number one. Rene Douglas from Pittsburgh, from Patreon.

Can you describe what wrestling in microgravity would be like? What rules would be needed to be adjusted? What rules would need to be adjusted and how? I love that. Okay, so microgravity is misnamed. Right. It's just zero gravity. Zero gravity.

Just call it what it is. Constant free fall. Yeah, your constant free fall around the earth. All right. Every day is a school day, thank you. It's zero G. So, so much of what makes wrestling work as a sport is knowing where someone's center of gravity is,

taking them off of that center of gravity, and watch them topple in a way that you control so that you get their back to the mat. And I didn't finish giving the basics of wrestling, but what should be obvious to everyone is your goal is to get their back to the mat for any amount of time at all, basically, and then you win. Okay, so it's so much is what are you doing

against the force of gravity or with the force of gravity? Yes. It's the combination of those two. And the more you can exploit that, then the more potent a wrestler you are. In zero G, it's not clear how you would design such a sport that way. So if I grab you and sort of pull you in one direction, there's no friction against another surface and you'll just sort of rotate back the other way. Right.

Right? You'll be this tumbling... Ball of flesh. Ball of flesh. You're just entwined with one another. Right, and I can sort of push you. And then if I push you away, then you just float away forever.

Right. You're not coming back. You both float away. You both float away from each other. Both float away from each other, right. Right, right, right. So part of the gravity, the need for gravity is, gravity is what gives you friction against the mat.

Right. Think about it. I am. Okay? You have, if I made you lighter and lighter and lighter, you have less and less friction against the mat. Like if you want to move furniture, but you're not strong enough to pick it up entirely.

Put it on a slider. Or you just lift it up mostly. Right it on a slider. Or you just lift it up mostly, and then you can slide it. You've reduced the friction between the furniture and the thing enough so that you can slide it without having to lift it entirely with all your muscles. So if it is not touching

or has any weight on the surface at all, then you can just move it. So I don't know that, I don't think you can have wrestling. So then you would have to have some gravity like maybe on the moon then. So that's one-sixth the gravity.

Gravity, yeah. On the moon, you need a bigger ring. Because I take you and I pick you up, you know, I could throw you farther. But in pro wrestling, they throw each other. In sort of actual wrestling, no. Sort of intercollegiate and Olympic wrestling.

Would you have to then confine the space and not just have a single mat? You would have to have like a cube of which... Yeah, you mean a cage match. Kind of, yeah. No, no, I just think you... I mean, right. No, here's the thing.

In a wrestling match, there's a circle. Yes. As long as what is basically your center of mass with your opponent is inside the circle, you can have limbs sticking outside the circle and it's not a problem. Right. And if I'm in control and I'm about to pin you and you try to wiggle your way out the circle, I bring your ass back in the circle. Right.

Right? And the referee won't allow you to escape if I'm still in control with you and I'm in the circle. Right. Right? And the referee won't allow you to escape if I'm still in control with you and I'm in the circle and you're not. They'll still give it to me to pin you or to complete my move against it. So, okay, gotcha. So my answer is...

So a wall is not the right concept. I was just thinking of multi-walls for a mat. So you were going up, you were going left or right, down and whatever. That was my thought, but... Oh, I see what you're saying. In a zero G. Yeah.

So you would have a circle above, below, and on each side. So if you did push yourself away, you'd hit the wall, bounce back, and you're back in business as you came back into the middle. Okay, that's very clever. I have to think about that. That's a first for me. Thank you. It would be walls in all directions. That'd be kind of cool. That's a first for me. Thank you. It would be walls in all directions.

That'd be kind of cool. That'd be kind of cool. But then you'd have to add like some kind of, I don't know, like sword. Here's what you need. A sword. A ray gun or something. You got to have something. I got it.

All right. You have handles around the side. So I can grab a handle and grab you. I can swing you. Nice. Nice. I like this. Handles. Then I got to place. So then it grab a handle and grab you. I can swing you. Nice. I like this. Handles. Then I got to place. So then it's not about friction. It's just about you holding on. So we've gone from tipping point now to a point of leverage.

Correct. Where there are no tipping points because there is no net gravity force. Right. That'd be kind of cool because then you could actually slam someone. Then I got to get you and I got to get you close enough so I can get a grab. And if I don't get you close enough, I can't pull my move. Right, exactly.

Very good, Gary. Very, very nice. All right. I've become teacher's pet. Right, on that note, we'll take a break, and I will glow for about all of one second. But before we take that break,

let's just get people excited to know that the sport has expanded. Yeah. And in recent years, there are now women who now wrestle. Good. In exactly all the rules that we have. Glow? The gorgeous ladies of wrestling?

Wesley. No. Maybe not. Of course, there's been professional women's wrestling. Oh, okay. I'm talking about in... Oh, you're talking about real wrestling. I shouldn't say real wrestling. I'll offend some people. So that's on the horizon for the Olympics and other things. Female Olympic wrestling some people. So that's on the horizon for the Olympics and other things. Female Olympic wrestling?

Yes, yes. So that's an inclusive, the inclusion factor went up for wrestling rather than down as it's been in so many other sports. Very cool. Interesting, because the next Summer Olympics will be in Tokyo. I don't know.

There might be exhibition. You know, they usually... Yeah, they test drive the sport. Test drive. Test drive it. The home of sumo wrestling in Japan. Oh, sumo wrestling. So maybe we'll see something like that.. Test drive. The home of sumo wrestling in Japan. So maybe we'll see something like that.

I've not ever seen a female sumo wrestler. And Lord, let's hope we never do. Chuck. We are going to take a break. And Chuck and I will have a discussion. Please stay with us. We'll have more from Dr. Tyson and ourselves about wrestling when we get back. All right.

Welcome back to Playing With Science. This is a Cosmic Query with your questions for Dr. Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. But I also happen to wrestle. That's why I'm on the show today at all. Exactly. Okay. And a favorite of many,

although he's too modest to say such a thing. Right, let's get in with the questions. Just a couple more rules about wrestling. Yes, go on then. You begin standing up and you get points for a takedown. You get points for, you get a point if you escape. If you take me down and you have me in a hold, but then I escape, I get a point for escape. Takedown is two points.

There might be some point changings in recent years. I haven't been as close to the sport as I once was. But then you get points if I expose your back to the mat, even if I don't pin you. Oh. It's a vulnerability factor that I get points for. That's pretty cool. So that's good.

If I'm in control of you for much longer than you're in control of me, I get points for that. Okay. It's called writing time. All right. So this is far more strategic. Yes, yes. If I'm not a big pinning person, maybe I'm a takedown artist,

I can take you down and let you escape. Right. Because I want to take you down and get another point. I will always have twice as many points as you. Right. Right? So we start out two to one, but now it's four to two,

and then it's eight to four, and it's ten to five. And if I, in college, if I get more than, I forgot what the number, points more than you, they end the match on a, because it's a- It's a possibility for you to catch up. Well, not impossible, but just it's, I'm dominating you and why bother to continue?

Oh, wow. That's terrible. Right. Oh, it's like the rule where the kid could, with the kids, what's that rule? The little league rule where the kids- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They can only win by,

it's like 40 points, we call it a game. 40 points. Yeah, you guys. It's not that bad. Yeah. 40 points. It's a Little League rule.

It's like a Little League rule. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Come on, let's get some questions. Let's get some questions. All right, here we go. This is Kevin Brongar, Grongian,

wants to know this. From where? He's from Facebook. He says, what does leverage play in Greco-Roman style? What role does leverage play? And what are the differences between some of the showy WWE and the grappling style of the Greco-Roman wrestlers? Excellent.

So what I've noticed in pro wrestling, there's a lot of upper body moves. You know, legs are in there occasionally, but you see they're grabbed, they're tossed. They, you know, legs are sort of auxiliary. They don't look as good. They don't look as flashy. Greco-Roman wrestling is a branch of wrestling where you don't use your legs at all. Right. Greco-Roman wrestling is a branch of wrestling where you don't use your legs at all.

Right. Okay? What that means is at a given weight class, you're not wasting poundage in your legs. So these guys got these pencil legs. And super upper bodies. They look like tubes of toothpaste being squeezed at the bottom.

It's all gone up to the top. Tell that to their face. Yeah, really. So Greco-Roman, Greco-Roman, it's all about takedowns. It's about not using your legs. Right.

So there's a lot of sort of acrobatic things you do with your arms, your neck, your torso. Right. And I wrestled a guy who was highly trained

in Greco-Romanoman and if he hooked up my arms you were done that was done i was done so now once he got control of my arms since i can't do anything with my legs other than stand uh i had no recourse and then he just took me down and pinned me so what is what is so the question of leverage. Leverage. Leverage is in everything. Whether or not it's... I mean, it's not about one variant in wrestling versus another. Leverage is everything. And as Archimedes once stated...

Going back to Greco-Roman. God, help. Thank you. Great having an educated person in the... A classically trained person. Yes, as opposed to just me. Exactly, yeah. I picked up so much.

Archimedes, give me a place to stand and I will move the world. He was referring to a lever. Right. If you had a big enough lever arm, you can do this. You know that thing

they slide under a car and jack it up? Right. Okay, do you see the length of that lever arm that's doing it with? It's super long. It's super long.

If that were shorter? Wouldn't work. You just have to be stronger. That'd be stronger. Or heavier. Right. That's why lever arms are not a few inches long. They're like many, many feet.

Right. So in wrestling, if I have to put, if you're here and I want to put you there, and we're on the ground, I can't just pick you up. I have to somehow pry you into that position. Yeah. I have to find your tipping point so that your center of mass is on the other side of you rather than on this side of you

and then you will tip over. Everything is about levers. Everything. And I had long arms, so I had a good lever arm relative to other people. If you're a stubby-armed wrestler, you're not really prying people around. Oh, you need a different sport.

All right, another question. Will J. from Patreon. What is the most energy-efficient and practical wrestling move that I could learn if I only had time to learn one really well? Oh, it's the...

There's a... Well, there's a fireman's carry, but that's if you're down. If you're standing from a standing position, my favorite move, it's everybody's favorite move, it's just very hard to execute against another wrestler who also knows this move, okay? You're standing, let's say you're going to dance with the person.

So your hands are palm to palm, so your left hand is out palm to palm, and your other hand is on their waist. Okay? So I'm being explicitly descriptive here for people who only hear this on the radio. Thank you. Okay?

If I now step across the two of us. Yep. Okay? Step across the two of us and put my arm that's on your waist completely around your waist, put my butt, now my back is to you,

and quickly raise my butt up into your hips. You are now off the ground. And I'm holding onto your other arm. So I have you at your center of mass around your waist, and I've got your other arm, and all I have to do is twist and bend, and your back goes straight to the mat.

You're going down. You're going down and I have control of you as you go down. So it's a takedown into a pin. Wow. And you're going down. And once you lose your foot contact to the mat... So what's this move called?

A hip... I don't know. It's got a name. It does have a name. So a name. It does have a name. So Will J, it does have a name. And it will consist of a lot of speed for you to move your... You have to get in there and do this quickly

so that they don't try to then react. Right. Okay? And mind you, while you're doing this, your back is to them. You don't want that for too long because if they figure out what's happening,

they'll reach around and just grab you and now they're behind you and they've got the advantage. Exactly. So you have to do this so quickly that you get them off the ground before they even know it. And then gravity takes care of the rest. This is a very intimate sport, this wrestling. I had a move, my favorite move,

because I have long legs and long arms. There's a figure four scissor headlock. And yeah, we're both down on the ground there. My opponent is face down. legs and long arms. Right. There's a figure four scissor headlock. And, yeah, we're both down on the ground. They're, my opponent is face down. Right.

Because if they're face up, they're pinned. So they're face down. Thank you. And I have, in my case, their left arm

twisted backwards towards me. Right. Okay. Yep. And, you shouldn't smile when you say that.

No, no, no. And my elbow's in the center of their back. Oh. So they're not getting up. Because all of And my elbow's in the center of their back. Oh. So they're not getting up because all of my body weight is in the center of their back and their left arm is back.

That's legal? No, I'm not... Well... Yes, it's legal. This is wrestling. I'm not yanking his arm off his butt. Your arm does that. Well, yeah, it does.

It's what you do when you're swimming. Right. Okay, your arm pulls back. But you're saying you're pulling it towards you. Yes, just because I don't want him to get up. Okay. Okay, so now watch. So what I do then is bring that arm around my waist,

and I walk forward, and that arm pries him up, and I take my left foot, wrap it around his head, and I just walk him over. And all of this creates a lever arm and he has, unless he loses, he can choose

to lose his head. Right. But there's a rule in wrestling. Don't lose your head. Wherever the head goes, the body follows. Well, that's kind of a good rule.

Unless, of course, you lose your head. In which case, that rule is off. It's not my fault. He broke the rules. Anyhow, yeah, so some moves are more efficient than others. So efficiency matters in your moves because I used to think wrestling

was just one of the hardest sports, but I'm going to say it's the hardest sport. And I base that on just empirical data. Ask people, what's the hardest sport they've ever done? I invite you to do so. And I base that on just empirical data. Okay. Ask people, what's the hardest sport they've ever done? I invite you to do so. No, no. Okay?

Yeah, I'm with you on this. Just do so. And you'll get all kinds of answers. Cross-country skiing. Right. Triathlon. Marathon. Ping pong. For some, yes.

Others, no. You were saying, Dr. Tyson. Badminton. Exactly. Golf. You're a bad influencer. So terrible. So terrible, yes. Others, no. You were saying, Dr. Tyson. Badminton. Exactly. Golf. You're a bad influence on me. So terrible. So terrible, golf.

You're a bad influence. Leave me alone. Toughest sport ever. Swimming. You'll get all manner of answers. Yeah. If they have wrestled, they will tell you wrestling. That is 100% of the cases I have asked.

I've done it maybe 50, 70 times. I've asked people. It's interesting because... Even rowing. And I used to row. Row. And take you out. Okay?

One time I wrestled and I did not have enough energy to hold my pee. Wow. That's pretty tired. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. A little TMI on that one. That was in high school. I gotta tell you,

I've actually drank enough where that happened. That happened and you weren't even wrestling. Yeah, I wasn't wrestling. I just got drunk enough where I was like, I felt like I've been wrestling all day. Actually, I'm wrestling with this addiction. No, okay. Alright. So here we go.

Another question. Yes, please. Call me. All right. So here we go. Let's go to... Another question. Yes, please. Call me Christoph on Instagram. It says, Has Dr. Tyson finally perfected the double title lock move? This is somebody who's familiar. Oh, somebody knows my stuff. Oh. Somebody knows my stuff.

There you go. No, I don't think I've ever... Have I written that once? He must have heard me talk about it at some point. Is this a move you were talking about earlier? So there's a move, yeah, earlier in the show. So the moon, you may know, always shows the same face to us. Okay.

So there's a near side and there's a far side. The far side is mistakenly occasionally called the... The dark side. Which it's not. It gets light just like every other part of the moon. Yeah, it's only the dark side because that's the room you're in while you're smoking the marijuana as you listen to Pink Floyd.

So, Earth has tidally locked the moon so that it rotates once a month. Right. Okay? What we're saying is, as the moon moves around us, it is rotating at the exact rate so that it's always showing the same side to us.

But that sounds like, what that means is not rotating. No. No. No. It actually has to rotate for that to happen. Think about it. If the moon is on one side of you

and you're looking at it, that face, when it's on the other side of you, it'd have to turn around and face back the other way. Otherwise, you would be seeing the other side of the moon. Correct. There you go.

Okay. The moon is trying to tidally lock us. Well, good luck to you, moon. I know. It's going to lose before the sun ends. But it's trying. Right. Can't blame it for trying.

No. So our day is slowing down slowly so that one day after the sun dies, a day on Earth would equal a moon month. So in other words, the time it takes the moon to go around the Earth, that's how long it would take Earth to rotate. To spin around once.

So we would only show the same face to the moon. That's called a double tidal lock. A double tidal lock. Yes. So I thought to myself, I want to invent a wrestling move called the double title lock. Interesting. Cosmically inspired. And so I came up with a move where you and I are face to face and we lock arms.

Okay? Okay. Now you are as strong as I am. We are the same weight and we're both fit. We both have one and a half percent body fat. So this only works if you're fast. Okay?

And they can't know it's coming. So you lock up the two arms and we are like face to face almost chest to chest. Okay.

And the moment I do that, I then drag one side of you down and spin you to the mat. And as we rotate, we rotate facing each other as we descend. But I have to make sure I am in charge and in control of you the entire time for that descent.

Because you're not going to want to go down. Right. So how do you ensure you have the control? I have to pull you away from your center of mass. Right. So that you're out of balance. And in order to get balance, you have to step forward coming into my grip. So it's almost like your opponent is falling.

You have them gripped. It's a controlled fall. It's a controlled fall. And why do you fall? And while you fall, I rotate. Yes. You're face to face, and we rotate together, and you end up on your back. No, no.

No, I'm saying the opponent. Yes. So you as the opponent will end up on your back. And I've got both of your arms with all my body weight pressing on your chest. Wow. That's a great move. Right. Double title lock.

The double title. And it's two faces facing each other and rotating. And they rotate together. Right. And that's cool because when it's over, you just get up and you go, you just got DTL'd, baby. DTL what's up? Double title lock.

You just got served by a concept of the universe. By the way, Pluto and its major moon, Charon, is a double title lock. Charon! Okay. Were you able to execute that move at any point? No, I tried it once. I wasn't quick enough at it,

and I had to perfect it more, and by the time I really got into it, I had stopped wrestling. Got you. Okay. Oh, well. I can execute it if I tell you to... Play along? To play along.

Yeah, if you play along with me, it would work. But you said it correctly. I have to put you in a spiral fall. Right. The only way I can do that is to constantly tug at you. Pull you forward. And pull you forward. So you're trying to keep your balance.

Right. And every next step, you're closer to the net. That's a cool move, actually. I kind of dig it. All right. We've got a question here from Cooper Holland, Hollyand on Instagram. How come heavyweights are so boring,

but little guys are always super slick and fun to watch? Oh, okay. Interesting. So let me first disagree mildly with that. For sure. Okay. The little guys are quick and not strong, and the big guys are strong but not quick. So ask yourself, at what weight class do you have the best combination of speed and strength?

Right. I would put that, personally, 160s. You know, there's a metric and there's the poundage one, and it's not the same in collegiate as it is in Olympics. But I would say the guys that are in the 160-pound range, 160 and 170, they have the best combination of strength and speed. So for me, they're the most fun to watch.

Do you ever get the outlier, the big guy with the speed? Oh, there's some fast big guys, and they'll win every time. Or you get the really strong small guy, and they're hard to... I call them the fire plugs. The fire plugs, oh, yeah. The guy is like, he's 5'3". Right, right, right. And again, we're always exactly the same weight.

Right. So there's a limit to how... So if you're really strong, you're shorter. Right. And if the taller, weaker wrestler doesn't know how to exploit their lankiness relative to your strength, then you're... It's always tough. It's the center of gravity against levers. Right?

So in NFL, they always talk line of scrimmage, low guy wins. Yes, however, when you're already on the mat, everybody's center of gravity is low. So the center of gravity matters in a takedown more than it's going to matter.

Right. Yeah. Cool. All right. I guess we got to take a break. We'll take another break, yes. But you got a whole pages of questions there. Okay.

That's why we're coming back after the break so as we can get more from Dr. Tyson, more of your questions and more insight into the world of wrestling. Welcome back to Playing With Science and a Cosmic Queries show. This time with Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson,

focusing purely on the wrestling, something he knows a lot about. I wrestled for eight years. Wow. That's a long time. Don't poke yourself. Yeah, seven years. That was eight, a little bit in graduate school. So we were discussing earlier in the show

about developments in the world of wrestling, and particularly with the women. Yeah, women are now wrestling intercollegiate and of course this early you don't have this the full backdrop the full um uh repository of talent as you did for men because men are doing it since middle school so it'll take a while to build that i think but for the examples i've seen seen, I was stunned by how exciting and how interesting it was. There was an exhibition match held in Times Square

here in New York City. Wow. And where some international folks came in, some people who had wrestled in the Olympics. It was fun to see them. You get their autograph and you get the exhibitions. And so the women were there. And, you know, the naive expectation,

well, the women and, you know, this is an upper body thing. And the women were there and I, you know, the naive expectation, well, the women and, you know, this is an upper body thing and the women have their sports, you know, like the uneven bar in the, in the,

in the, in the gymnastics. You know, not all sports are equally divided. Correct. Right? Men don't do the uneven bar, the women don't do the rings,

for example. Exactly. Right? And men don't do the balance beam. The balance beam. So the things that are, they split up based on body type.

Right. Fine. Okay, I get that. In wrestling, you say, okay, it's a guy thing because guys, women, oh my gosh. The men wrestle in a weight class.

In a weight class, there it is. So you just match two women. You just match people equally. And there it is. And they got the wrestling rules and they're all the same rules. I'm going to get my daughter into this right away.

It was completely, I was completely taken by it. And so I'm just pleased to report that this is on the rise. Good. And in an era where we're separating the genders and things, this is just, are you the same weight? Go for it. Go for it.

There it is. I can't wait to get my daughter involved. Guess what? I'm looking at that scholarship money right now. Get in on the ground floor man you know she's five she starts wrestling now by the time she gets to college she kicks a man yeah all right all right so let's do lightning round because i you got pages and pages of questions here all right we got ed i have my bell i don't have my bell okay all right no bell ding

ding right ed bamaru 82 listening in tijuana baja Baja, California. This is on Instagram. All right, quick question. If you had to organize a wrestling match somewhere in the universe, where would it be? In the universe. Wow. Okay, so most places in the universe will kill you. So of all the places in the universe, I'd have to organize the wrestling match on Earth. And I would hold it in Death Valley. Mm-hmm. So of all the places in the universe, I'd have to organize the wrestling match on Earth. So you could... And I would hold it in Death Valley,

but in an air-conditioned place in Death Valley. Why? Because that's the lowest place on Earth's surface. We have the highest atmospheric pressure where every breath of air you take has more oxygen than any other breath in any place else. So you get to wrestle more.

It's a higher concentration of air. Okay. I'm loving that answer. It's the opposite of going to a mountaintop. You go short of breath. Exactly. You go lower down. Or go to some salt mine.

Wow. A mile down and have wrestling matches there. Nice. You'll never be out of breath. Yeah, it's just... Everybody walking around sounding like Darth Vader. All right. Come on, Chuck. Next question. All right, Chuck, next question sounding like Darth Vader. All right.

Come on, Chuck. Next question. All right, Chuck. Next question. Go. All right. Here we go. How can a shorter wrestler

use physics to their advantage against a taller wrestler? That's Rob from Rhode Island. That's great. A shorter wrestler, if you're quick, you can attack their legs very easily

from the standing starting position. You just get in there and now I got you on my leg, and I'm trying to get you off my leg, and now you've got the first advantage. And if you're low on my legs, and if you grab one leg and trip the other leg, I go down. Right.

And that's two points for me. Because my balance is established by my two legs. Right. And so shorter wrestlers can get in deeper on a quick move. But once you're down, being short is no longer... It's not an advantage anymore. It's harder to exploit that advantage. Everybody's the same size laying down.

Yeah, there you go. All right. I like this name, Vision of Oz from Instagram. I think we may have covered this, but let's go again. Which law of physics would you believe would affect wrestlers the most? Okay, so for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. Okay.

It's one of Newton's three laws of motion. Yes, correct. So that one, I think, manifests the most in wrestling. All right, next question, Chuck. Okay, go. Interesting. Oh, by the way, his other laws, objects in motion tend to stay in motion

unless acted on by an outside force. Inertia? So the inertia, yeah, it's the inertia one. And the other one is his formula, force equals mass times acceleration, which is the correspondence between what, if you press on something, how will it begin to move for having done so?

Right. But the action in equal opposite reaction, I think that's the most for me. It's the most in wrestling. All right. This is Jordan Ruthers from Instagram, wants to know this. I saw recently that wrestling

has one of the lowest rate of high schoolers going on to compete in college. Why do you think this is? P.S. I think the double title lock has been invented already and is referred to as an inside trip. Oh, interesting. Because I'm not tripping the person.

No, you're not. That's interesting. I'm just spiraling them down. So thank you for that. I'll look at some videos on that to see how they get the person to come down. For me, I mean, tripping would be simpler than spiraling you down

because I have to still make sure that you're losing your balance all the way. But if I just trip you, I take you down right on the spot. That's no celestial dance then, is it? No, no, it's not a dance. I can grab you and trip you backwards and that's the pin. But the idea is to have both your arms locked at the same time. And you're in a pirouette.

Right. Yeah, the pirouette. I got this. And we're going to do it to music. I'm keeping my double title lock on that. Right, yeah. We're going to do it to music. But otherwise, I'll trip you and we're just down

and we lose the dance. Yeah, you bet. Wait, wait, but the other one was what? The other one was, why do you think that wrestling has the lowest rate of high schoolers going on to compete in college? I did not know that. And I'm surprised because the college wrestlers I've seen,

they've been doing that since, you know, sixth grade. So I don't know. And I'd be disappointed to learn if that were really really true yeah because otherwise you got to teach people afresh you know all anew and by the way it's a it's not a it's a great sport to get some college money for you know everybody wants to play i'm telling you if you got a kid everybody's trying to be a basketball player or a soccer player or a football player or a baseball player. The

Title IX and all that money, it's got to be distributed a certain way. Get your kid into fencing. Get your kid into wrestling. Get your kid into like, seriously, that's what you want to do. What prep school did you go to? Hey, I'm just saying.

The sixth duke of Earl will be fencing against... And the Duke is on scholarship. Right, exactly. He says it because his parents aren't fools. Right, Chris Hartvigson on Facebook. Does bouncing off the ropes really add power to the people's elbow? Okay, we're talking about pro wrestling now. Yeah.

Here's what happened. Talking about the rock. I'm talking tongues. Okay, we're talking about pro wrestling now. Yeah. Here's what happened. Talk about the rock. I'm talking tongues. Okay, no, no, no. So the rope is a way for you to not lose the energy you had going into the rope. Ah. So the rope takes your energy into the rope

and gives it back to you on the way out. Right. No lost energy. Right. And so there you have it. Because you have to put energy into it to bend the rope. It's like a bow and arrow. It's like a bow and arrow.. Because you have to put energy into it to bend the rope. It's like a bow and arrow.

You've got to pull the bow back in order to get the arrow to go forward. And so all these sort of rubberized things help the acrobatics of the professional bout. All right. Yeah. Nice. Keep coming. I'm on a roll here. Here we go.

Darren R. Ngaro on Facebook. Okay. What's the average energy output of a three to five minute match, heavy or light weight? In the Khaleesic type wrestling. Yeah. Oh, oh, you know, I don't know. All right.

But when I wrestle for six minutes, I'm near dead. So I don't know. So a lot. I'd have to calculate that and I've never done so. But... That's intense. Generally, when we think of energy output, we think of you're on a treadmill, you're sweating,

you're doing this thing. You're not thinking of this static force against force not moving because it can't move because there's a force against you that's exactly your strength. You are burning energy, just not moving against that other person's force. And so it's a whole other kind of investment of body energy compared to the aerobic energy we think of when you're on a treadmill or on a rowing machine. Absolutely. So yeah, it's the most

exhaustive six minutes I've ever spent doing anything in my life. So we got to figure out a way to quantify that. Cool. Yeah. All right. So Malik Umair Saeed says this from Facebook. What is the ultimate tensile strength of a human muscle? Interesting question. Yeah.

It's a great question. Ooh. Ooh. So I knew a guy who liked doing things like arm wrestling and you do the wrist thing where you try to, you interlock fingers. Fingers, wrist to wrist and try to bend back.

Wrist to wrist and you try to bring back the wrist. What he does is he locks, he is very good at locking his muscles. And then he just tips you backwards and you're trying to use energy to move his muscle, but he's locked them.

Okay? That's pretty cool. He's locked them. And then I said, that feels dangerous to you. And he said, why? I said, because if you lock your muscles, and I hit a tipping point on those muscles, you rip the muscle out of the joint.

Ew. Right? It just rips. It just rips. Rather than flexing, you lock the muscle out of the joint. Ew. Right? It just rips. Rather than flexing, you lock the muscle and you rip the ligaments, the tendons. And in fact,

he told me that actually happened to him. No, not to him, to another person he was doing it against. Wow. This wrist wrestling exercise. So... Why am I in pain? I know, why are you in pain?

I'm in pain. So I don't know, but I can tell you that muscle strength scales as the cross-sectional area of the muscle itself. That's why bigger muscles are stronger than smaller muscles. It's quite a simple equation there. There you go. All right, we're out of time. I can't quantify that, but I'm just saying.

Do you remember any old-time SNL fans here? Oh, yes, I think I know where you're going with this one. Okay, there was one where they were parodying the fact that everyone was doing drugs in the Olympics. So they were going to have a new kind of Olympics where drug use was encouraged. Okay, so they go to the weightlifting part. And the guy bends down to pick up the weights.

And then he goes for the deadlift. They said, oh, no, this is the second time someone has pulled their arms off. His blood's flirting out from his shoulder. It was pretty gross it was pretty wild let's not encourage that no no no we don't want to encourage that

but that's about it yeah man I can't believe it fun show fun show yeah and thank you Dr. Tyson

for your insight into the world of wrestling yes oh yeah thank you yeah I didn't know what this topic was

when I came in today I know I would have done a little more homework well we like to keep you on your toes. Okay, sorry. Yeah, you don't have to be sorry. I'm an old man now.

Yeah, well, listen, you're better than me. All I wrestle with is childhood issues. Right. On that note, thank you to everybody who... Oh, one other thing before you end. One other thing, apparently.

There was talk of getting rid of wrestling in the Olympics because the viewing audience was not as high as it was for figure skating or for other sports. And so I said, you know, I have to weigh in on this. I can't just let this go unchallenged. Yeah. So, I hate pitting one sport against another

but but I said I've never seen synchronized swimmers on the side of a Grecian urn that's pretty funny

nor badminton for that matter right that's all I said oh yes I just said I just said

I didn't see that I haven't seen it maybe maybe somebody made one with synchronized swimming And I have missed it Right

But on Grecian Urns You get the discus thrower You get the wrestler Right I say what you do Is just combine the two Wrestling on ice You see you and I

Had the same thought You and I Had the same thought Wrestling on ice It seems like it's time To end this program Oh yes it was triple salchow

bam right into a body slam oh that had to hurt okay so we've done it once again we've reinvented the world of wrestling and we shall continue

to do such things in our following shows thank you to everybody who had a question read out thank you to everybody who sent a question in and we weren't able to get there thank you to Dr. had a question read out. Thank you to everybody who sent a question in

and we weren't able to get there. Thank you to Dr. Tyson because it's been fabulous always. Thanks for having me. You usually plug me in every now and then, but now I was like the guest on the show. Yeah, all right. That's nice. So that's it.

I've been Chuck Nice. And I've been Gary O'Reilly. And this has been Playing With Science. Until next time.