StarTalk Radio - Into The Matrix with Laurence Fishburne

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

Are we all living in The Matrix? Neil deGrasse Tyson sits down with actor Laurence Fishburne to explore the science of The Matrix, simulation theory, and who has the better deep voice. Would you take the red pill? NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://startalkmedia.com/show/into-the-matrix-with-laurence-fishburne/Thanks to our Patrons james martindale, Henry GLover, Steven Weber, Evan, Qaisar75, Moe, Denise Edwards, Micheal J Trietsch, Randy Frankel, John Mortimer, Austin Croley, Chase J, Kathryn Cellerini Moore, adijan Oda, Markus McLaughlin, Dan, 1 Eleven, Dustin Morell, Siva Kumar, Brandon Smith, Ken Zebarah, Steven Dominie, Layf Carlson, st.johnstantine, Thimon De Raad, Scott Payne, Micheal Williams, Ricardo Piras, Troy camilleri, lioz balky, s, and CeeJay for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to Star Talk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Star Talk begins right now. This is Star Talk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And today we are joining a one-on-one exclusive conversation with someone whom I'm proud to call my friend, Lawrence Fishburne. Lawrence.

Neal. What? How are you, man? Welcome to Star Talk. Thank you, this is so great. Thank you for having me, man. Oh my God. I'm so excited to be here.

Is this your first time back at the Hayden Planetarium? I haven't been to the Hayden Planetarium since I was a boy probably. Oh my gosh. Walked by many times. Yeah, because when I was a boy I came by and was like, I'm doing this for life. Yes, exactly.

I wanted to live here too, but I wasn't that good in science. I liked it, but I wasn't that good. Wait a minute, you told me your mama taught science. My mama was a science teacher, yeah. Okay, so then how'd X square out? Well, I found this other little thing that I was good at. Oh, this little thing.

You know, that little acting thing, the little play acting thing. And it kind of worked out for me, so. You know, kind of worked out, I think. Kind of worked out, yeah. So I just look at your catalog, oh my gosh. It's not just deep, but it's broad. And I'm looking at it and I'm saying,

if I were an actor, that's kinda how I'd wanna be. Because as an actor, you act this way and act that way and act this other way. And if you're always doing the same thing, that's not acting. It's not as much fun. I mean, it's fun for some people. Some people like they do the thing, they find the thing,

it works for them, they do that. It's cool. For me, I'm just, I'm kind of a curious person, so I'm interested in stuff that I don't know, and learning about stuff that I don't know, so. By the way, that curiosity, most of us lose in childhood, and as an adult you get comfortable. Yeah, sure, but as an actor, you get comfortable. Yeah, sure.

But as an actor, it's good to have that kind of curiosity because you never know what kind of part you're gonna play if you're looking for something different every time like I am. Plus you want people to, if you're not always in control of what role is offered. Exactly. And you want to at least give the options to those.

And you want to keep learning. I mean, I want to keep learning. So my curiosity has just drove me to do it. I'm just looking at this. How many people know you were in Apocalypse Now? A few people. A few people. Okay.

I'd say a few people know that. Okay, you had a bit role in Apocalypse Now. I was one of the four guys on a boat heading upriver with Martin Sheen to go and assassinate Marlon Brando's character. Right, you were one of the young soldiers. I was a young sailor on the boat. Sailor on the boat.

Yeah. And I remember, I don't know if you confided in me, whatever, it's a little late now, that you were like underage at the time. How old were you? Yeah, so I auditioned for the movie, I was 14 years old, I got the part, they asked me how old I was in the interview, so I auditioned for the movie. I was 14 years old. I got the part. They asked me how old I was in the interview.

I lied and said I was 16. They knew that I was lying, but they just hired me anyway. It wasn't like my lie convinced them to hire me. It wasn't that. A lot of guys, if you go back and you see these documentaries about World War I, you discover that there were many boys, 16, 17,

who enlisted, who lied about their age and they were conscripted anyway and they went to war. Okay, so you were 14, lied and told when you were 16, and you were playing an 18-year-old. And I was playing a 17-year-old. 17-year-old, okay. So that was Apocalypse Now. Yeah, Apocalypse Now, 1976, 1977.

And you know, Boys in the Hood, John Wick, oh my gosh, that's just fun, mindless entertainment. Right, yeah, yeah. John Wick. Yeah, style above content. Fighting, fighting, fighting. I love me some good fighting, you know. Yeah, it's all good.

And you know, even, I've forgotten, you and, I'm blackish. Blackish, yep, as the grandfather, as Pops. Grumpy Grandpa. Yeah, grumpy grandfather, Pops, that was fun. CSI, where I played a scientist. Television, Pee Wee's Playhouse, where I played the cowboy, Curtis. I forgot about that.

Pee Wee's Playhouse. Yeah, Pee Wee's Playhouse, yeah. Man. Good fun. So what I thought was broad and diverse wasn't even the full story. Not quite. Okay, all right, so you played a scientist on CSI. Were you the guy in the morgue?

No, I was not the guy in the morgue. I basically replaced William Peterson. When William Peterson, who was the bug man, left, my guy came in, I was a guy named Ray Langston, who was a pathologist. So which CSI was this in the pantheon of CSI's? It was in the original CSI which took place in Vegas. I didn't remember that.

Yeah. Okay. By the way, you must know CSI ended up, it became so successful as a force of attraction for people who might want to become scientists. I didn't know that. Yes. Oh wow.

And at least anecdotally, there were chemistry professors that say why are all these women now in the class that wouldn't, weren't there. Would normally have been. Oh I saw a scientist on CSI. Because there were real people portrayed. Right. With real socialized personal lives.

Yes, exactly. They were not just the scientists in the lab, the nerd lab scientists that, give me the answer and let's have the real people move on. They made science sexy. They were the real people. And CSI created a museum exhibit that traveled. That's right, they did, they did.

It made science sexy. It was the way they shot it. And what I used to always tell people about the show was, they were like, oh, you're the star of the show. I was like, no, I'm not the star of the show. I'm like, the crime that they're solving with the scientific method is the star of the show. Yes, there it is.

That's the star. Science reigns supreme. Absolutely. In every episode. So, was that your only time as a scientist? No, my other time as a scientist was in a film called Contagion that came out in 2009. I played the head of the director of the CDC.

Nice. So it was all about tracking down potential pandemics that were gonna happen and we had a guy who recently passed on, a guy named Elliot who was the head of the CDC and that was his job and every day he'd be on the set and he'd be like, look at this, look what we're tracking in Bolivia. Look at what we're trafficking in Africa.

Oh, as an advisor. Yeah. And he would be like, we're tracking this in this country. We're tracking this disease in this country. And it was fascinating. And then of course, when COVID happened, it was like, it was like they had lifted everything from the movie and it was actually happening in real life.

I visited the CDC for my very first time just a couple of months ago. Oh wow. And they took lifted everything from the movie and it was actually happening in real life. I visited the CDC for my very first time just a couple of months ago. Oh wow. And they took me deep into the, Did they? Yeah, into what was basically like the situation. The vault. The, what, what, what?

No, I saw this vial of Legionnaires disease, fluid. It's like, you know, it's like, they study this. And so I went into the room, and as an astro person, the only analog I have to this is mission control. All these desks in arcs, and a huge wall, and it's a screen of the world, and at every country, there's data coming in. What disease is there, what's getting tracked,

how many people have the disease, how many people have died from the disease. And potentially what it will do if it gets out. All of this is there. Oh! Yes, but thank God for them. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Thank goodness that they exist,

that organizations like that exist. And their hearts in it. They care. They care, they care. They care. So, scientists twice. Two scientists. Okay, let me say I'm a little disappointed

given how many movies you've made. Okay, you gotta come through for me now. Well, I've done a lot of science fiction, though, Nia. Oh, yes! Oh, my gosh! I did a little. I looked at the list, and I'm embarrassed to say, I've seen like only, I gotta go on a like a

fish burn binge. You gotta have a fish burn night. Like, you get the movies, you line them up. I'm gonna do a fish burn night. You get the movies, you line them up. I'm gonna do a fish burn binge. You get your menu, you line up your menu. I got it, we gotta do a fish burn binge here. And the Signal. The Signal. The Signal.

Yes, 2017. Okay. That was a great one. I played not quite a scientist in that, but a guy in a hazmat suit. Okay. So it kind of qualifies. Oh!

All right. Event Horizon. Event Horizon. Surgeon Resco. Passengers. I'm not a scientist in that, but a guy in a hazmat suit. So it kind of qualifies. Oh! Oh! Event Horizon, Passengers, Contagion, The Colony. Contagion, The Colony. The Colony. Oh man. Predators, what was that? Predators was part of the Predator franchise. Okay.

So it was. That was in Predator 3, wasn't it? No, no, it was like four or something. Basically, the premise was the Predator collected a group of really, really bad human beings and dropped them on this planet, which is basically the Predator's hunting ground. So it's like convict, serial killer.

So they selected them to be bad already? They selected them to be bad. So none of us would miss them, I guess. Exactly, and this is where the Predators go to practice their hunting. It was Adrian Brody, myself, Mahershala Ali, Alicia Braga, Topher Graves. That would have been early for Mahershala Ali, right?

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. I want everything he's in. Yeah, it was early for Mahershala, myself, Walton Goggins, and of course, Denny Trejo. It's a pretty cool movie, I gotta say. I'll put it back on my list. Yeah, Predators. Alright.

Fantastic Four, I don't know you. Fantastic Four, I voiced the Silver Surfer. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and then of course this little thing I did called The Matrix. The freakin' Matrix! That little movie. The Matrix!

Yeah, you know. I don't know who saw that movie. I can't even look at my notes anymore because you just distracted me. The Matrix, that's my know. I don't know who saw that movie. I can't even look at my notes anymore because you just distracted me. The Matrix, that's my single favorite movie of all time. Really? Yes. I don't know if you're ready to see

what I want to show you, Neil, but. Don't try to out deep voice me. Okay. Let's try it. Okay. I want to hear you do as best you can. Yeah. This is Star Talk.

Okay. This is Star Talk. No, you're trying too hard there. Oh, you don't try? That wasn't naturalistic? No, you were forcing that. This is Star Talk. I'm Morpheus.

No. I'm Morpheus. Why can't I be Morpheus? I'm Morpheus. I'm Morpheus. I'm Morpheus. I'm Morpheus. I'm Morpheus. No. I'm Morpheus. Why can't I be Morpheus? Because you're not. Because I am.

You know, we just lost James Earl Jones. The great James Earl Jones. The great James Earl Jones. I only barely met him. I was at a premiere on Golden Pond with him playing opposite Felicia Rashad. Right. But, Darth Vader, I mean, come on. Yeah.

Luke, I am your father. Do not overestimate the power of your technological terror. Let me hear Luke, I am your father. No Luke, I am your father. Look into your, search your feelings, you know to be true. Look, CNN hasn't been the same ever since they stopped using his voice for that.

They're using all the correspondence, it's like, don't you understand? Exactly, I would love that gig. No, I want the gig. You want that gig? No, I don't want you to have the gig. We might have to fight about it now. No, you'll lose.

Okay, you ready? Let's try it, you ready? Let's audition, this is our audition for CNN. Ready? Replacing James O. Do I have Marme go first? Yeah's audition. This is our audition for CNN. Ready? Replacing James O'Donnell. Do I have Marme go first? Yeah, absolutely. This is CNN.

That's not bad. It's actually pretty good. This is CNN. Ooh, that sounded a little more authoritative. All right, let me try again. All right, go ahead. Because you hit the syllable sharp thing. This is my wheelhouse bar. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha. You know what I mean? Okay, okay, all right, all right. Come on. This is CNN. Nice, nice. This is CNN. You got the little breath at the end there.

I could put some breath in too. You could put some breath in. This is CNN. All right, you got it. I'm gonna just, I acquiesce. It's your gig. You want it, you got it. So how deep can you take your voice?

Have you? Probably right about in here. Like below audio frequency levels? I don't think it's sub, I don't think it's that. Sub 20 hertz. I don't know if's sub 20 hertz. I don't know if it's that deep. With 20 to 20,000, that's the traditional range.

Yeah, actually I just put it through a thing. I go to the studio and they put it through a thing and it comes out. They'll take it down. Yeah, and it sounds like evil alien. Yeah, yeah. Let me see, I haven't done this in a while. Okay.

And now. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh no. Come on, baby. Okay, so now if you can do that voice, then it looks like Morgan Freeman got all the God jobs. Yeah, he did, he did. He did get all the almighty's.

The almighty's. He got all the everlasting's and the almighty's, yeah. Okay, so, you know. But you got the cosmos. You got the cosmos. You can't have a pipsqueak voice coming out of the universe. No, you can't.

That doesn't work. No, no, it's like burning bush. Gotta be down here. You've gotta be down here. It's just a bias we have. Yeah, it does. Suppose God's voice was, hi everybody, I'm down. There's no reason why it couldn't be high pitched. Hi, I love. It is. Suppose God's voice was, Hi everybody, I'm God.

Exactly. There's no reason why I couldn't be high pitched. Hi, I love you so much. I love you. All of you are my children and I love you so much. No one would believe it. They would just like, okay. All right. Hello, I'm Alexander Harvey and I support Star Talk on Patreon.

This is Star Talk with Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. Let me take you to the map. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. So one of the reasons why it's my favorite film is other than one little bit where the science they played loose with the science. By the way, I don't mind that provided a story is internally consistent.

That's the big Comic Con rule, really. Okay. Okay. It's not whether Comic-Con rule, really. Okay? It's not whether it's real science or not, but if you're gonna have a rule that operates in your story, stick with it. Yeah, if you set up the rules of the world, you have to abide by those rules. Correct, and that's what any video game is. That's right.

Any story. Any story in any medium. Actually, it's any story in any medium. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And so it did it so well. Mm-hmm. And it was such a fantasy adventure.

Mm-hmm. And good and evil and I don't know, it was beautiful to watch. Yeah, yeah. And so just kudos to the Wachowskis. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it was a brilliant idea

and a brilliant execution of a brilliant idea. So apparently, rumor tells, that Will Smith's agent was not convinced by the story enough to have him Play Neo. Play Neo. Okay. And so what about the story intrigued you?

Because it's a, oh yeah, moved to Australia for five months or whatever. For two years, basically. Oh, two years, yeah. Basically, I mean, we were there for three years doing all three movies. Okay. Essentially, what drew my interest in it was.

It wasn't too weird for you. So I don't know what this is. I understood it. Oh, so maybe Will Smith people couldn't. Here's the thing. Cross that. There was a guy, one of the main producers on it, Joel Silver was one of the producers,

there's another guy named Lorenzo Bonaventura who was one of the producers, and he was, I think, the guy who was showing this to the studio executives, to the people who make the decisions. And a lot of the story is- What do you call them, the shirts or the jackets? The suits, whatever. The suits.

So the executives, right? And many of them were, the shirts or the jackets? The suits, whatever. The suits. So the executives, right? And many of them were, the story is that many of them just didn't get it, they were like, we don't understand this. And what I've heard is that Lorenzo's response to that was don't worry, no one under 30 understands it anyway. Wow. Right?

So I was 34, 35 or something when I read it. And it was the most original thing I'd ever read. That didn't mean that everyone was going to get it. That didn't mean that everybody was going to understand it. That's what my experience with Apocalypse Now had taught me. Because when I made Apocalypse Now in the 1970s, it was the most expensive movie ever made. It was the most ambitious movie ever made

during that period of time. Marlon Brando was in the movie, and Martin Sheen was in the movie, and it was about the Vietnam War, and it was exciting, and John Milius wrote the screenplay, and all these wonderful elements. But the movie commercially did not do well. It was a critical success,

but it was not a commercial success. So I had learned that even though something on the page or as a concept is brilliant, that doesn't mean it's gonna translate with an audience, particularly an American audience. One never knows, the American audience is mercurial, man. It's, you know. So I just knew that it was the most original thing

that I had ever read, and I understood it, I got it, and I wanted to be a part of it. And the timing just so happened that the way that it all sort of came together, we shot the movie in 1998, the movie came out in 1999, the internet was born in 1998 essentially, cell phones became a reality in 1999. It's the digital world.

The digital world. Descended on everyone. On everyone, and essentially what the story is and why it resonates with everybody all over the planet, and it did at that time, is because it's the old myth told in a digital format. And we were right at the birth. So it had deep resonance.

Yeah, we were right at the birth of the digital age. Okay. But is that rumor true that Will Smith turned it down? I don't know. I've heard that before, but I don't know. I've never really sat down with Will and asked him about it. Yeah, okay.

Because when I heard that, I said, how does an actor know what role you should or shouldn't take? Well, you know, it depends on who you are and what your thing is. If you're true to yourself, it doesn't even matter. You're just true to yourself. Yeah, I mean, it's anybody's guess. Maybe that's the case.

I don't know. I've never sat down and asked Will about it. Okay, can I share with you all my religious observations? Yes, please. Okay. Yeah. Catholic, religious Christian Catholic observations. As you are a Catholic.

Well, I was raised one. Raised Catholic, right, okay, please, yes. My doubts descended early. Yeah, well. A religion rifled with doubt. Yeah, but I'm still fascinated by the fact that there is such a thing as religion in the world and billions of people that practice it, right?

That intrigues me as an educator because something is attracting them, what is it, and why, and you're this religion over here because that was the religion of your parents and you're sure your religion is the one true religion in the world, but so are these people, are just as sure as you are,

and will go to war on that. Historically, in fact. Yes, historically, correct. Yes. So that's why religion intrigues me. So in The Matrix, so first, Neo, that's an anagram of the one. You had to dip your head in the one.

The one. You can't non-act that expression. The one. So that's the one, all right? He's the savior, all right? So now watch. So now watch. Early in the film, he wakes up from his,

and there's someone knocking at the door, and apparently he hacked something for them and is about to give them, and so he says, wait a minute, he goes back, rummages through a thing, gives him a disk. And the guy says, thanks, you know, okay. You're my savior, you're my regular Jesus Christ.

That's a script line. That's right there. Yeah, it's right there. Right there, okay, but That's a script line. That's right there. Okay. Yeah, it's right there. Right there, okay. But let's not stop there. All right. So, we keep going. There's the part where he gets brought

into the Nebuchadnezzar for the first time. He's still wrapped and looking around. And there's Joe Pants. Joey Pants. Yeah, Joey Pants, yeah. Pantoliano. Pantoliano. Pantoliano.

And he's there and he's just looking and then that character, Cypher, is startled. And he says, oh, you scared the bejesus out of me. Yep, that's two. Okay, so hang on. Yeah, that's two, yeah. Hang on. Yeah.

Who betrays the group? Cypher. Cypher! Yes. He betrays. He's the Judas. Who, he's Judas? Yeah, he's the Judas.

He's Judas. Yeah. After the bejesus was scared out. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't have Jesus in him. He doesn't have Jesus in him. Okay.

Nope. All right, let me keep going. Keep going. Okay. If you can. I'm. Because you think you know the movie better than I do. And you might.

I don't know. You might, let's go. Here's the difference. Let's go. It's my favorite movie and you've made 100 movies. Right. So. Right.

So. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. So then, everyone sort of decides that he's the one. He's the one. Right, when he's like pulling Trinity up.

Oh yes, yeah, yeah. From the helicopter as it comes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is the one. I told you he's the one. Right, when he's like pulling Trinity up from the helicopter as it comes in. He is the one. I told you he is the one. He is the one. Do you believe it now, Trinity? That was good. I don't know what it means to compliment you

on exactly imitating what you were paid to do in a movie. And I would say, hey, you should be that character. But, oh. Too late, already been done. No, but the weird thing is, you're not imitating that character, you were that character.

Yes. Even that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, let's fast forward towards the end. He gets shot point blank.

Right. By Smith. Yes gets shot point blank by Smith. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then he drops. He drops. He keeps firing into him. Yes.

Okay? Just, all right. Do you know how many bullets he put in him? I don't. You don't? I don't. I will tell you. Tell me. Okay, it requires a little bit extrapolation. I don't. You don't. I don't. I will tell you. Tell me.

Okay, it requires a little bit extrapolation. Okay. Okay. Through the bullets you see, it's like four bullets point blank to the chest. Okay. At that point, we go back to the Nebuchadnezzar, and you see his body responding.

Right. Okay, but if you track the rate that bullets are being fired, and continue them into that scene, then we come out of the scene and there's a few more bullets that you observe. That's 14 bullets. Okay?

There are 14 stations of the cross in a Catholic church. I didn't know that. Now, for non-Catholics out there, in every church, Catholic church, typically in the pillars that surround the main open area from the side areas, mounted facing inward are 14 drawings, paintings, relief maps of the 14, they're called stages of the cross.

Okay? And they're key moments in Jesus's life. And it's an early movie, really. The word movie doesn't even exist. But a sequence, it's a visual sequencing. And it's all of it, and he's tried under Punch's pilot. He carries the cross, he's put up on the cross, he dies on the cross.

So it's all there, you can look it up on any, you can find them. Yes. 14 bullets. Now, and he dies. Right. Then he's resurrected. It comes back more powerful than ever before.

That's right. Is that not Jesus? That's Jesus all the time. Joining the side of God. That's Jesus all day. All day, all day, all night. Joining the side of God. That's Jesus all day. All day. All day, all night. So who's Trinity?

Well, okay, so we got to like. In the Catholic. That would have to be Mary Magdalene. Okay. But I'm thinking, let me not go that far. Well, she does take them to a sex club. That's where they meet, at the sex club. Was that a sex club?

That's a sex club. No. Yes. They were just dancing. No,, at the sex club. Was that a sex club? That's a sex club. No. Yes. They were just dancing. No, it's a sex club. You look behind and you're looking deep in the background. They didn't allow them to show all of that, but it's a sex club. Really?

Okay, Mary Magdalene right there. And who's Morpheus? In the Christ mythology. I know, I'm trying to... He's the Baptist. John the Baptist? He's John the Baptist. Oh, because John the Baptist knows Jesus is coming.

Yes, he knows who he is. And sets everything up. And he's been looking for him. He's been looking for him. And when he meets him, he goes, I'm supposed to be baptized by you. So that's who Morpheus is in the Christ mythology. In the Christ.

But there's also mythology, Greek mythology. Tell me, tell me. Well, Morpheus is the Lord of Dream. He's the God of Dream from Greek mythology, right? Persephone, who's in the second or third movie, who's played by Monica Bellucci. The Oracle is Greek. That's an actualucci. The Oracle is Greek. That's an actual Oracle.

The Oracle is Greek. Yeah, too bad we lost her before the second film. She was really a strong character. Niobe. There's an element on the periodic table called niobium. Is there? Yes, there is. Because there's something about the colors

that were sort of iridescent and radiant. And something about in the Greek legend, Niobe, I don't know the full story, but it would borrow that from Greek legend, Niobeum. So there's the Osiris, there's the Nebuchadnezzar, which is also biblical. Yes, of course. It's also the size of a very large bottle of wine. Ah, is it?

Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar? You tend to find it only in Champagne, because that's when you, it's a party. It's kingly. Yeah, it's kingly, it's a party for 30 people, and you just lean the bottle for Nebuchadnezzar, is its size of a bottle of wine.

So there's the gnosis, there's the Osiris, Persephone. I don't want to say mashup, because that might undersell it. It's drawing from very deep. All these traditions, it draws from Western tradition, spiritually, religiously, and Eastern tradition, spiritually, and philosophically as well. Especially, because scenes are not just simple scenes,

you have to think about them. No, exactly. What's going on here and why? Right, right. Like when I saw the film for the first time, I had forgotten about all of that because we had to train so hard to get the physical stuff right

that I forgot about all of the philosophy and all of the sort of religious tenets. But you come in and film your scene and go back to the trailer. No, it's not that simple. It's not that simple. It was a year of work, but so much of it was physical, and we had to work so hard to do that,

that I really forgot about the stuff that's in the dialogue. Like, my favorite stuff is in that first encounter I have with him, and I'm asking him, do you know why you're here? And I'm saying. You didn't say that right. Do you, do you. Do you know why you're here? See, I get, you know.

And this is what has brought you to me and that whole thing about, do you know what the matrix is? And I go, it's all around us. You can feel it when you go to church and all that stuff. That's my around us, you can feel it when you go to church, and all that stuff. That's my favorite stuff, because it's very, it's really cryptic,

and it's really scary. And ethereal. And ethereal and very scary. And you have to deliver it that way, otherwise it's just a line. Yeah, it's just a line. Yeah, you have to live inside that line. And I had forgotten about all that stuff that's in it.

And even the stuff with like Joe Pants and the agents when he's talking to them, and he's having the dinner. He's having his steak. That's very, that's almost ASMR. Okay, because he's eating the steak and he puts the. And he's eating it and he's like, I know this steak isn't real. But my mind.

And I don't care. Is telling me it's real. So we have a deal. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't want to remember nothing, nothing. All that stuff is just, you know, it's fantastic. Yeah, so that's my sort of religious line through it. And no one doesn't love the idea of a savior. I mean this is. That's right. Yeah, so that's my sort of religious line through it.

And no one doesn't love the idea of a savior. I mean, this is. And a plausible savior, right? He didn't show up as Superman. Right? He had to find it in himself. Just the way the Oracle had required it. Yeah, so that's why it's your favorite movie? Because it reminds you of Jesus?

No. No, I respect storytelling. And the stories that have outlived civilizations. And the story of the Christ is indeed a powerful story. It's very powerful, very powerful. So there's all of that. And then there's a few more things. Okay, they tossed it, it was a little bit,

they stapled it on when the Oracle says, watch out for that glass. And he says, what glass? And he turns around and it drops. And he drops it, yeah. And he says, that glass. Now here's gonna be eating your craw. Would you have done it if I didn't?

If you did, exactly. Okay, it's one of these future, trying to avoid the future, make that future happen. So I thought that was unnecessary because the movie was already deep and that was almost cliche sci-fi time, you know, future prediction.

I thought the movie was above that, but fine. I liked it, I thought it was clever because of what they did, the way they set it up with the know thyself sign. Oh yeah, right. And they set it up with that. And also, that she's grandma and she's baking cookies. Yeah, no, it was a full.

Her baking cookies and she's in the projects. Like she lives in the projects. I don't know if people know that those are the projects. That's, that made it good. But did they have projects in Australia? Well, we weren't supposed to be in Australia. Ha, no. It takes place in a modern city. Yeah, I think, extensively, Chicago.

Yes, basically. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And I only know that because I have the original script. Oh, okay, cool. Yes, and so it's the L going by. It's the L, yeah. And the heart of the city. Heart of. And the Heart of the City Hotel.

Oh, and Wabash Avenue. Wabash is a main street in Chicago. And that's an explicitly stated street. No, but I'm saying, where did you guys get the projects in Australia to film in? Oh, there were, no, it was all location. It wasn't location, that wasn't location. That was a sound stage. Oh, just set that up?

Yeah. Okay, very well done. That felt like the project. It did, it did. Okay, they grew up in projects. And that, mine were middle income projects, so there were fewer junkies. Yeah, yeah, no, but it felt like a project.

Yeah, it did, they got that. They got it right. And a couple things. By the way. What did you think about the spoon? I'm getting there, that's my next thing! Oh, sorry! Oh, tap, tap, tap!

So, I give a public talk, one of which you attended. I think you attended it. One of them is called An Astrophysicist Goes to the Movies. Yes. And I show clips, and then I analyze the clip. And the Matrix has a dozen clips. I don't put them all in one thing, because it's scientifically themed, not movie themed.

So I have a section on optics. Okay, with the spoon. One side is convex, one side is concave. Right. You slurp out of the concave side. Yes. Concave, convex. Yes.

If you look into a spoon on the convex side, you are distorted but right side up. If you look on the concave side, it's upside down. You are upside down and that was accurately captured in the frickin' movie. Yes. The science was right. The optics of that science.

The optics of the science was right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was good. That was cool. I like that. And then the kid's saying, do not, do not try to move the, do not try to bend the spoon.

That's impossible. That's impossible. Instead, bend yourself around the spoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, that's impossible. Instead, bend yourself around the spoon. I said, that's good, that's good. No, it's genius, man. No, it's good, it's all good. Now here's another thing, I let it go because everyone does it, but just,

I'm telling you that in almost every movie where they show people crazily brilliant, okay? Like, that's the point of the movie, because they're brilliant. Like Phenomenon, for example, with John Travolta. Which I've never seen that film. Okay, it's worth Saturday afternoon if you're at home. He gets hit by lightning, and he was just a regular guy,

even partly mocked for not being smart. And then he wakes up and he's, yeah, well after he's hit by lightning, and Robert Duvall is in that as the person studying his new abilities. Anyhow, the point is, he says, name me 10 mammals or something. You want it in alphabetical order?

And then he goes through the whole alphabet. So yes, a really brilliant, smart person would do that. I don't have a problem with that. But in almost all these cases, they start moving stuff with their minds. And it's like, there's no evidence that smart people can move stuff. You just figure things out faster or better.

Okay? I'll give you that. We start moving things. And then there was Lucy. Did you have to see Lucy? Okay, but you start moving things. And then there was Lucy. Did you see Lucy? You have to see Lucy. Okay, Morgan Freeman was in that. Yeah, and she starts using more of her mind,

changes her hair color as she's walking down the street, you know, stops bullets. You know, you gotta be in the Matrix to stop bullets. Come on now. You know. So anyhow, so the hopefuls who are waiting in line to see the Oracle. Yeah, the potentials, yeah.

So they were doing things. Yeah, the one kid was moving the blocks. The blocks in the air, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, fine. It's a, fine. It's a nice visual, it's kinda cool. Also, the Oracle is establishing that Trinity's in love with him.

And he's oblivious to that. Okay, I was kind of oblivious to that too. I mean, I'm just, you know, guys are just generally stupid, you know, about these things. So, and she says, you're not too smart either. Not too bright, huh? Not too bright. I don't know what she sees in you.

Who? Not too bright either. Yeah, it's great. It's really cool. Yeah, because given the choice, you'll have Morpheus and Wann and Trinity and the other. And you know, so I think it was brilliantly acted by Keanu Reeves where he's in the car and they're driving

and he says, good sushi. Used to have noodles, I used to eat noodles there. He used to eat there. Good noodles, really good noodles. Really good noodles. Yeah, yeah. And he says, none of that's real? And I'm inside of him feeling this.

Because I can't go back, can I? Right, this is. He's like, even if you could, would you want to? Oh! Oh! Yeah, I mean, that was one of the hardest choices because so many of us, I mean that's another thing forget all the religious mythological sentiment.

It's what do you value more? Seifer said put me back in my body. You know, I don't want to know anything. I don't want to know anything. But you know, I'm a scientist and I'm curious. I kind of rather know the truth. Right. Because there's some chance, some hope that you can do something about the truth.

Or you can do something with it. Do something with it. If it's all just a delusion, I don't know that I want that to be my life. Right, exactly. Let me tell you my one issue. I only have one. The only one thing that scientifically just rubs you

the wrong way. Rubs me the wrong way and the rest of the movie was so brilliantly done, I'm giving it a hall pass. My man. Hall pass on the Matrix. Here's your hall pass. That's what's up. All right, so you've got the scene where you are describing to Neo

where he is. There's a chair there, easy chair. We're in the construct. We're in the construct. Right. And it's white everywhere. Right. Brilliantly done, and there's no echo.

Right. That was perfectly done. All right. You describe to him that the machines are using humans. As batteries. as batteries. As batteries. As a power source. As a power source. And there's some other language in there

just to flesh out that scenario. Here's a problem. In the laws of thermodynamics, if you have a certain amount of energy here, and you turn it into another kind of energy, for example, there's chemical energy in gasoline. You put that in your car, it turns it into kinetic energy to move your car.

You ingest food, which is chemical energy, and you keep your body at body temperature, even though it's colder outside. When you're comfortable 72 degrees, your body is still maintaining 98 degrees. If you put anything outside at 98 degrees, it'll go down to 72 degrees. Even though you're saying that's a really comfortable,

your body's actively maintaining your body temperature. That takes energy. Your body's moving, you're running, you're acting. That takes energy. Okay? It turns out, anytime you convert energy from one form to another, you don't get 100% of it. No, you get like, at best, 90%.

Your car, I forgot the numbers, the efficiency's grown over the years, car might get 30% of the energy of the gas to have you move forward. You know where the rest goes? Into heat. That's why the engine gets hot. Of a combustion engine car.

We just take it for granted, of course it's gonna get hot. Wait a minute, that's energy I wanted to use to go forward. That's miles per gallon wasted as heat. That's what happens when you convert from one form of energy to another form of energy. Okay, so now, the laws of thermodynamics dictate that it's not 100%, you don't get 100% of your energy. All right, here are the machines using humans

as a form of energy. I can say how much energy we radiate, okay? We, depending on how big you are, if you're exercising or not in that moment, typically between 80 and 100 watts. 80, 100 watt light bulb, that's how much, that's what we are. So we used a battery and that's fine,

rather than a bulb. Same idea, same idea, that's not what matters here. We are an energy source for the machines. They're tapping our 100 watts, okay? Fine. Where do we get our 100 watts from? They're feeding us. They're feeding us.

They're feeding us. Whatever they're feeding us, feed themselves with that. Oh, wow. Bypass the middle, the literal middle man. You don't need the middle man at all. You don't feed humans, have them generate energy, and then have that energy generate the machine. Well, what are you doing? They didn't study physics.

Probably not. But then there wouldn't be a movie. There wouldn't be a great movie. You just have to Smith's with no people. There'd be just like a movie that you watch and you never get those two hours back again. And you don't have the memories and you don't have the appreciation

and the cultural significance of the picture. It was so worthy of a hall pass. I gladly signed it. It really is. Gladly signed it over. The idea that human beings are batteries is kind of cool. Yeah, it's cool. And it's true.

And it's true. Speaking of hall passes, I was once principal for the day at a middle school in the Bronx. Oh, goodness. There was a program where they'd bring you in and you'd see how the public schools are run and this sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I didn't tell them. I snuck out the pad, the principal's pad, that says principal on the top. I still have it in my, don't tell anybody. That's gotta be the most powerful thing. Safe with me. The Principles notepad. Exactly.

So if I sign a whole pass, it's legit. It's all good. It's all good. Cool. So I let that one slide. That's good, man. Thanks. It was a brilliantly delivered scene with the battery,

you don't say Duracell, but we all know what the copper top is. And that was very well done. And then one character refers to him as copper top. Yes, yes, yeah. Derogatorily, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, the film raised a point early on.

It was early. By the way, just so you you know there's someone generally credited with Advancing the possum the idea that we could be living in a matrix his name is Nick Boehrm, okay, and Those are into dumpster diving we have him as a guest on an earlier episode of Star Talk He's an Oxford philosopher right and You can hypothesize that if we have the ability to create a world in a computer, and the characters in that world think they have free will,

then how do you know you're not one of those characters that are created? Now if they have free will and they invent computers and they want game time, they might create a computer world within their computers. And if they think they have free will, they could do the same thing. They edit that all the way down.

Exactly. And so if you close your eyes and throw a dart, I'm simplifying his argument, but this is the essence of, close your eyes and throw a dart, which universe are you most likely to hit? One of these simulated universes, or the one real one that started them all? And so, that's a terrifying prospect.

That's a frightening question. Frightening question that the matrix sits in the middle of. Yeah, in the middle. And so, my best rebuttal to that was, by the way, the last universe has to evolve to get computers and programming, right? All right, we currently do not have the ability or the computing power to create a perfect world

where people think they have free will. We don't have that ability yet. No, we don't. Well, if we don't have that ability yet, we're not any of the ones in the middle that do have that ability. Nope. So we're either the of the ones in the middle that do have that ability. Nope. So we're either the last one, the last simulated universe

that hasn't gotten there yet, or we're the original universe that hasn't gotten there yet. Logic tells you that, yeah. So we go from the odds are like 99.99% chance we are to one and two. Okay. That's how I got out of this one. That's pretty good. That's very clever.

I mean, I feel a little better about that. That's very clever. I was just talking about the phones and virtual lives that people are living online. Oh. That's what I was like. Oh, that's like not, you think, so you become your own avatar.

Yeah, people are having, I mean, people are living virtual lives on their phones and on their computers and they create these avatars for themselves and post and look at me and all that and it feels like the life that they live on their device is more important than their life here and now in the real world. Reminds me of Chris Rock who said, anytime you meet someone, it's not really them,

it's their representative. It's the person they want you to think they are. And online does that better than anything. Yes, it allows you to sort of present what you wish people to think of you and the way you want people to perceive you. So is this our first step? Will we one day step into that character and you become your online character?

I don't know, here's what I think though. I did this show. Wait, wait, it can happen. Let's say you're dying and we say, we can upload your consciousness and have you occupy all these spaces you have established online. So I did a science thing, this thing called Year Million.

Have you seen this thing? No, Year Million. Yeah, it's a limited series, it was about four episodes, and it's all about the singularity. You've heard of the singularity? So the hypothesis is the singularity, and when that's gonna happen, and when it all becomes sentient

and when and ultimately what will happen is we will evolve to this point where we integrate with the technology. Okay. And that thing you just described about being able to upload your consciousness into a matrix is kind of, but it's. That'll happen way sooner than the year million.

Well, according to this show, and the science behind the show, I wasn't responsible for the science, I'm just the narrator, the singularity, this event, is not as close as we think, and it's not as far as we think either. Okay, all right, that's a, all right.

That's the basic premise. I'm just saying, 150 years ago, we were in Horse and buggy. And now we have rovers on Mars, okay? Right, but what's happening here is what's important. Not what's happening out there. Because I mean, even to get out there, we don't have the infrastructure to do that yet.

No, not yet. And that's gonna take a long time to figure that out. Wait, so straighten me out. The Matrix was when you're not in reality. Got it? Yes. Okay, so when you're in The Matrix, most people, as they say, you take out your garbage.

Garbage. Yeah, you go to church. You go to church. You go to work. You go to work. Yeah. But you can feel it. Yes, so who in the movie are only the hackers

the one who felt it? The ones with great computing power? No. Would everyone have felt it? I would like to think that everyone felt it, but not everyone paid attention. In other words, most people chose to ignore the feeling. Okay.

And then there were certain people who couldn't ignore the feeling. There it is. Because I wake up and I have these feelings. Uh oh. Some getting ready to happen, man. No, so I wonder more often than I should, So I wonder more often than I should,

why is it that I wake up every day as myself? How come I don't wake up as another person? Why am I consistently myself every day? And then I wondered, is that even true? Do I actually wake up as different people every day thinking I was always that person? And why am I having these thoughts? It should have been an actor, man. Don't!

No! No! No! No! Because then that wouldn't bother you. You could just wake up and be whoever you wanted to be that day. It wouldn't bother me.

It wouldn't bother me. I saw your one man show. I feel like Tiny Tims today. I saw your one man show downtown at the Perlman Center and it was a series of skits and you were completely different characters in every skit. The different characters, the different tonalities, different body gestures.

Sure, yeah. Acting is not just did you deliver the line right. Did your body participate in the delivering of the line? It's the storytelling thing, it's the characterization thing, it's the physicality thing. But essentially that show is a thing I've been working on forever and ever.

Yeah, just congratulations on that. Thank you. And it's just those Yeah, just congratulations on that. Thank you, and it's just, you know, those five characters that I do, plus myself, as an adult and as a child and as a younger man and all that, but thank you, thank you for coming to see it. Yeah, yeah, that was good, it was good. It was beautiful. So, there are so many great actors

where you part the curtains and somewhere in there, they've done Shakespeare. Yes. Right? And you were a fellow. Yes, I did Shakespeare. I did a fellow on screen with Kenneth Branagh. Oh, yeah, he's a big Shakespeare guy. He's a great Shakespeare actor.

And Erinn Jacob, yeah, back in 1995. Yeah, okay. The street cred, Shakespeare cred. I got a little shake. I can shake it up a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was fun, it was great fun. I haven't done it live, which is one of the things

I hope to do in the future. In fact, I'm engaged to do it at the Pearlman. I'm engaged to do King Lear at the Pearlman sometime in the near future. Wow, that's an important story right there. It's a great story. Oh wow. Some say it's arguably one of the greatest plays

ever written. For me it's up there, just for the messaging. Right, right. That it is. It's a great story. Some say it's arguably one of the greatest plays ever written. And for me it's up there, just for the messaging. Right. That it is. It's powerful. For me, Shakespeare, the challenge is, here's this very awkward sentence to anyone's modern ears.

Sure, sure. And you gotta deliver it like that's exactly what you would have said in that moment. In that moment, at that time. And that's hard. Well, he's a better poet than we will ever be actors. Wait, wait, pause. I gotta, okay.

I have to credit. I have to credit. I just gotta catch up with that sentence. No, no, I just have to credit that with Kenneth Branagh. Kenneth Branagh said that to me when we were doing Othello. Okay. He said, Shakespeare is a better poet

than we will ever be actors. That gave you something to ascend to. It gave me something to take comfort in and it allowed me to relax, and not try, like, I'm never gonna be as great an actor as Shakespeare was a writer. Okay. So I don't have to try to do that.

Okay. All I need to do really is be mindful and surrender to the language and try to speak the language with as much ease and dexterity as possible. I like the surrender to the language, I like that. I was in the Oregon, I attended the Oregon Shakespeare Festival up in Ashland, Oregon just recently.

I've never been. Oh my gosh, the whole culture is embedded in the town and I saw a choreo lanus for the very first time. Oh, I just saw it in London with David Oyelowo. Oh yeah, okay, it's one of the most violent things ever written. Oh yeah. Okay, except their version, now this sounds like,

oh they're just trying to bewoke, okay? Their version was played by women and non-binary actors. Wonderful. But all women. And you say, well, why are they doing that? What's the point of that? Here's why. When you see guys being violent, you say, oh, they're just guys being violent.

You see a woman threatening to slit someone's throat, our culturalization says, that's especially violent, because women don't go running around threatening each other with knives and swords, and it's not a thing in our culture and in our literature. When you see women doing it, it brought the violence to a whole other level that I think I would have missed.

Otherwise, it was just guys. Unless you were in a woman's prison. Unless in a woman's prison, okay. You say that like you've been. I haven't, but I just guys. Unless you were in a woman's prison. Unless in a woman's prison, okay. You said it like you've been. I haven't, but I'm assuming. Okay, yeah, no, so it took me to, now it just took five minutes to adjust to it,

but then it's like every act of violence was more violent because of that. So people just exploring ways to get out of a story, things that you wouldn't otherwise know. What's this with you and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences? I was made a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences last year.

Well, congratulations. Thank you, I was so honored, I was so surprised. My friend David Anderson, who is a scientist, who's in Pasadena, California, nominated me and then. That was a dig, because I didn't. Because you didn't. Because my friend Neil DeGrasse Tyson didn't. And then my other friend.

So was that a dig? I don't know. Francis Ford Coppola. Francis Ford? Who seconded my nomination. So of course you'd know him, because he directed. He directed Apocalypse Now. And Rumble Fish, and Cotton Cotton Club and One from the Heart.

These are all your movies you're in? Right. I was in One from the Heart, but I got cut out of it, thank God, I was mercilessly cut out of it. And then a movie called Gardens of Stone, which is the only time I ever worked with James Earl Jones, the late, great James Earl Jones. And then most recently, Megalopolis.

Oh, that's on my list. Yeah, I've seen previews. Which is beautiful. Yeah, I've seen previews. Which is beautiful. Yeah, I've seen previews. It's really beautiful. So I sort of know Coppola. Oh yeah.

And Francis Ford. We met a couple of times, just overlapping paths, and his film, The Conversation, is second just below The Matrix. Unbelievable. As to my favorite. That's, wow. It's a very tight, brilliant story.

The conversation. And cerebral, yes, I'm there. Plus I identify with the main character who is himself geeky and a little socially awkward. Socially awkward, but also in a world of his own. And very, very much isolated. Yes, that's what part of, you know, back then, when you were geeky, you were isolated and you're geeky.

Now we all found each other at Comic-Con, but back then, you know, and you're geeked. Now we all found each other at Comic-Con, but back then, you know, that was not how it happened. But then he also has this reach, this power that allows him to sort of enter into other people's worlds and their lives as well. That's a way to say that. I had thought about it that way.

Yeah. Okay. Plus he came to one of my public talks and he gifted me one of his wines. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. I think he acquired the Engelnuk vineyards and then became Cola and he's done some other things. I might have sold it since then. Knee bound, yeah, knee bound.

So I had a little overlap with him, but otherwise. He's an incredible man. So he was nominated Jew. He nominated me for the American Academy, but he's really the guy that's responsible for me becoming the kind of artist that I am. My exposure, the things that he exposed me to and the way in which he trained me

and the way in which I worked with him is really kind of how I've managed to do what I do. So let me tell people how we first met. Yeah, yeah. I'm filming Cosmos in the desert in New Mexico, which has a lot of tax incentives. Tax incentives. For movies, so there's a whole movie industry.

And sci-fi lore, kind of hovering around the culture. Am I not allowed to say that? Did I say something? I'm sorry, but am I not allowed to talk about? Did you visit Area 51 while you were there? I did not. Well then, who were you to talk about? I visited Area 51.

I'm just saying it's lore, it's you to talk about? I visited Area 51. I'm just saying it's lore. It's like in the culture. I visited Area 51. I did a story about it on History's Greatest Mystery Golf, you know. Matter of fact, two episodes were dedicated to Area 51. Okay. And the Roswell incident.

Yeah, all right, well if you visit, if you visit Roswell, the lamp posts have green alien lampshades on them, alien heads. So once you go there, there's no turning back. It's built into your economy of the city. You gotta keep pumping that. So back to the real story. So I'm there and our cinematographer is Bill Pope.

And I say, Bill, what other work you've done? Oh, well, I filmed The Matrix. It was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Can I touch you? And so I couldn't stop talking about The Matrix with him. Then I was wondering, can I get to do that in the cosmos? What can he do for me? Oh, bullet time in the cosmos.

I can do some bullet time. Surely you got something up your sleeve where I can do something cool. But then I'd learned, I'd forgotten how, that you were filming. The Signal. The Signal, not too far in the nearby city. Yeah, in Albuquerque.

In Albuquerque, yes, yes, because I was outside of town and near Santa Fe. And the point is, what was it? But then I forgot, then I connected with you. Bill Pope connected us somehow. Okay, but I brought you back. Yeah. And then you hadn't seen him in a while.

I hadn't seen him in years. Yeah, yeah. So there was like time out on the set of Cosmos. And the three of us just boogie down for a bit. Yeah, that was fun. And there was a beautiful sort of rainstorm that was approaching the studio where you guys were shooting. Yeah, what's fun is,

because you have vistas to the horizon, you see the rainstorm, pick up the dust. We could see it coming. And it was like something out of a movie. And then you see the coloration of the sky, the pinks and the blues. Then you're reminded, this is where Georgia O'Keeffe, where do you think she got her colors from?

Exactly. It was her life, her horizons, her skies. So yeah, and I'm delighted that we've been friends since then. Me too, man. I really, because again, I've always been interested in science and astronomy and the future and what it's gonna look like,

and obviously science fiction. Yes, clearly, yes. So to have befriended you and to learn so much stuff from you, you know, even when we're not sitting down, like just the fact that you came back with Cosmos, because I watched Cosmos as a child. Oh yeah, under Carl Sagan. We both watched that as children.

It was so inspiring to think of not just the world, but the cosmos in that larger sense. What it did was it wasn't just a separate subject that you study and then return back to your home base. It folded it in to not only your knowledge base, but your state of mind. Yes, exactly, exactly. It opened your mind to the possibility.

In a way that you can't even think of that series as a documentary. We need a different word for it. Absolutely. Right, because a document, well let me sit down and let me watch this documentary. When I come up with the word, I'll let you know. Please.

And if you come up with a better one, then you can have the CNN gig. Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Horse trading on the deep voice. And this has been Star Talk.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, and then say, as always, I bid you to keep looking up. Okay, go. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up. Okay, go. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up. Mwah!

All right. Cut! Cut! That's a wrap.