StarTalk Radio - Making a Phenom – Nurture

Episode Date: July 17, 2020

What does it take to be great? Host Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice explore greatness, grit, and more with Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll and world-renowned psychologist and author Angela Duckworth, PhD. NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons and All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/show/making-a-phenom-nurture/ Image Credit: (Clockwise from top) Michael Jordan: Unknown author / Public domain; Lionel Messi: L.F.Salas / CC BY (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0); Serena Williams: Hanson K Joseph / CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0); Michelle Wie: Keith Allison from Hanover, MD, USA / CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0). Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk Sports Edition. The making of a phenom. This is a series that we're doing just to try to understand what does it take to become great? What does it take to become the greatest of all time? And I've got with me, of course, Gary O'Reilly.

Gary. Hey, Neil. You're there, a football star from the UK. Excuse me, soccer. Thank you. Soccer. You're also a sports commentator after you retired there, so it's great to have you

here. And Chuck, always good to have you, man. Yeah, you know, Neil, if I knew we were doing a show about the greatest of all time, all you had to do was ask me. Is that right? Long time StarTalk co-host, comedian, and apparently on your resume now it says actor.

So I'm waiting to see what movie that shows you show up in there. No, you just noticed that. That's all. It's like when you buy a red car and you're like, there's so many red cars around. I've been an actor for many years now. All right. Well, this is the next in our miniseries, The Making of a Phenom.

Yeah. And in earlier episodes, we've talked about what might be the genetics of a phenom, the nature part of the equation. And today we want to talk about the nurturing side because to be nurtured requires a coach. It requires an environment. It requires resources for athletes to rise

to become the best in their game. And there's only one person in the universe who I wanted to talk to about this. The one and only Pete Carroll. Pete was the one. The crowd went crazy right there. The crowd went crazy. Head coach and executive vice president of the Seattle Seahawks. You have a Super Bowl win under your belt with 2014 versus the Broncos.

Very nice. One of only three coaches to have won a Super Bowl and a college football championship with USC. Very nice. And you are founder of the company Compete to Create. This is ambitious. We want to get into that. And co-author of a book titled Compete to Create. This is ambitious. We want to get into that. And co-author of a book titled Compete to Create. How unimaginative.

That's the name. Couldn't come up with anything else. Subtitle, An Approach to Living and Leading Authentically. Yeah, because people know when you're not real. People know. So tell me a little bit about your book this summer, summer 2020. Well, we're really, really proud. It's an Audible original.

And Dr. Michael Gervais, who was a partner of mine, has been working with us for eight years at the Seahawks, really as performance master. And we've been working together to try to help our players be the best they can be. And in doing so, we've just shared a lot of time together. He has a tremendous amount of work that he's done in his past. So we did a little book in combination and really my leads and I kind of bring in the coach's corner, you know,

about different topics and things that go along and we connect some to what we do. But basically, we're talking about helping other people. Yeah, you're saying if whatever I am, I can be better at it if I listen to your book. That's what you're saying whatever I am, I can be better at it if I listen to your book. That's what you're saying? I would like to think that everybody would find ways to be challenged to improve the way they live their lives. Okay, I don't care about getting better. I want to be the best. Okay, okay.

You're like Russell Wilson. Yeah, thank you. Forget just being better. I want to be your coach, one of the greatest coaches we have. I want to be the best. Is there any messages in there about that? Oh, yeah. It all starts with self-discovery.

To have a chance to be your best, you have to figure out who you are. And that is where our process always has begun. Until you can unlock what you're capable of doing, what you're capable of believing about yourself. You don't have a chance to be a great performer because you can't recreate your performance. When you don't know who you are, it's hard to get back to it sometimes. It all starts there. And there's a lot of depth there.

There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of inner work, the hard work that you have to do that really challenges people. work, the hard work that you have to do that really challenges people. I'm surprised more people don't really take the time to step away from their busy world and take a look at what is important to them. It really just begins with beliefs.

You got to figure that out. What about people who don't want to be challenged? They ain't going to be great. Funny how that works. They're just not going to make it. I'm so interested to hear that that that you know that that you start there uh when you look at the level of play especially in the nfl which i think is the highest level of play i want to say the nba and the nfl are the two levels of like there's just it there's no comparison you know there there just is no

comparison there's no other league or player that could step into those, onto that quarter field and compete with those guys. So, with that being said,

have you ever seen someone do the work you just talked about and elevate themselves because they unlocked

that discovery? Not really. Not consistently. Now, you did a lot of hammering on Gary's sport here. So he sat back and let you say all that stuff. He was very poised back there. I'm sure he's getting ready to fire away. But no, there's without this extraordinary inner drive that pushes you for whatever it is that fuels you. The limits that

you have to reach and the boundaries that you have to extend, they just don't happen. And they certainly don't happen consistently enough. I mean, people, anybody can have a great day. Anybody can have a great game, but can you come back and do it the next day and the next day? And to do that, you have to know where you're coming from or you can't find your way back home. And so it's really pretty similar simple in that regard what peter are you wait peter are you telling me that uh you're espousing yogi bearer's uh edict a 90 of the game is half mental is that did you just say that did you just say that i could easily have said it i love you again and i i have stumbled my way through into that at times. You're not alone, coach.

I must ask you, I mean, any decent athlete wants higher performance levels. So in your program, there are so many areas of which you focus on. It might be sleep management. It might be understanding yourself, as you say. But what would you say are the indispensable elements of your Compete to Create program? Yeah, well, I think we need the steps along the way but i don't i mean if you're looking for a shortcut here i don't know that there's a shortcut to being great i think it's the long hard road that you have to be willing to to battle but if you don't have the grit that it takes to to persevere the hard work. Then, and you have to have a kind of a love

for the hard work so that you keep coming back to the developmental process that gets you to be at the top of your game. So I don't know without the real inner grit part of it. And I would give you a little definition of that. But the aspect of it is perseverance. You have to keep coming back.

You can't come and go. And sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't. And maintain the kind of level of performance that a person is capable of doing. And that's why there's great performance. The great performers that we always study are ones that not only have the athletic ability, this extraordinary athleticism, but they have this other aspect of them that makes them uncommon and makes them unique and makes them a pain in the ass and makes them just keep coming back, you know. Wait, Pete, if this is about self-discovery, then what do we need you for, a coach?

Well, the problem is, and I ask this all the time, you know, if I'm talking to a group, I did it with a group of generals one time in a special forces unit get-together. And I asked them, okay, how many people out there have a philosophy? Raise your hand. So about a quarter of them raised their hand. And I said, of those people raising their hand, keep your hand up. Of those people raising their hand, how many could stand up here right now and tell us from 20 words or less or whatever what your philosophy is?

And all the hands come down. And there's like two guys that can't wait to tell you. And I don't want to hear their philosophy. but the point is. It was just an exercise. It wasn't real. The point is so few people have taken the time to step aside from their normal life and really categorize what it is that they're all about. And it's, the process is not that complex. It's just tedious. And you have's just tedious and you have to again you have to have the drive inside that you want to figure this thing out because you've got to get through it so that the words that you put down on the paper that describe the things that you believe in

are so comfortable with you that yep that's it okay that's no no i got one word that's wrong here it doesn't feel right you have to dig into it so that you really find that authentic those statements that start to work bring about the philosophy that you generally find that authenticity in those statements that start to work, bring about the philosophy that you generally do. It's a series of the beliefs that make the philosophy, but you got to do the work to get that done. And not many people are willing to do that. So that is fascinating in that, you know,

the way you're framing it, which is extremely positive. And you seem to be that kind of person. Like when you watch you on the sidelines it's it's like watching coaches is a whole nother entertainment and football that football fans really know about and like all coaches have different personalities and you seem to be more of a like yo we're gonna do this let's get this. Let's get at this. And what you just said right there was framed very positively. Have you ever come across a player who comes to that place from the negative, maybe without an express philosophy, but they get to that same place,

but from the negative? And what does that do? Yeah, optimism really reigns in our program. It's, you know, I really live my life thinking something good is just about to happen. So, I mean, that means no matter what just happened, I think I can find a way to turn that, you know. So that's one end of the spectrum. But I've had guys for years that don't see the world that way at all. And so you have to work them around.

And one of the areas of one of the parts of program and in our book is talking about self-talk and how you speak about yourself and to yourself. And that's a very powerful tool. And the people who come from the negative often see the negative. They often point out all of the things that could go wrong and all that. So we have rule number two in the program is no whining, no complaining, no excuses. That's a big rule, but that's rule number two. And when somebody starts talking to the negative, then they become a rule number two violator. They get hammered because we don't want that. Illegal procedure.

Yeah, we're calling foul now. I don't want that talk to affect somebody else's mentality. Somebody else may be going to a good spot and then all of a sudden you're dragging them down. It's real important to deal with all different kinds of people, obviously. And lots of times there's a point where you guys say, okay, I know you feel that way. Just shut up for a little bit here because I don't want you to affect anybody else. I'll listen to you in a minute.

I give guys every once in a while, every once in a while, I give them a little air time to kind of, you know, kind of air out their griefs and their disappointments and their concerns and all that. We give them about two minutes and they don't, and that's about it. So they get a chance to get it out because you got to, but in general, the negative part of it doesn't mean that you can't be a great player. It doesn't mean that at all. Doesn't mean you can't be a great performer. You know, I forgot for a moment there that you're not only dealing with a team full of

extraordinary players, you're dealing with a team full of extraordinary egos. They were like the best in their high school, the best in their college. Their name is up on a board somewhere. And so that this is a, this is, this is not just managing their athletic ability. No, there, there is a lot that goes into the complicated individuals that we deal with. And I think everybody's complicated, but I also think everybody's extraordinarily unique too. And so it's my so it's our process. We're a relationship-based organization. I mean, we care about figuring out how to deal with the people.

He rolls his eyes. Oh, yeah, okay. But we are because I need to know how I can best communicate with the individuals so that I can make sense to them. I've got to take them a long way sometimes, and we've got to teach them a lot. We've got to hold on to a lot of information. You've got Russell Wilson here, who's a star quarterback, yet he was like 75th. It's what did you say?

Third round. Third round. Overall, what number was he picked? You might have had it with 75. I don't know. That might have been the number. I don't remember that. He might have been the 12th guy in the third round.

Maybe that's the rule. Gotcha. Okay, there you go. So now, here's the thing. Do you know he will rise higher than what he was when you obtained him? What of your book

is give you insight into how you're picking people to say that person can self-actualize. I hate that phrase, but that's what it is. That person knows where they are and they know where they can be. By the way, he's already great, so you can just lie and say, yes, I knew all along. I'm not one to try to do that one.

You can take that shot if you want. But Russell is such an extraordinary man. And he came to us with a mentality that was an exceptional mentality to the point where when we first were interviewing him back at the combine years and years ago, somebody had told me that Russell Wilson is going to tell you things that you're going to think aren't going to be able to be true. He's going to lay out this. He's going to say this.

He'll say that. He said, if I were you, I would give him a chance to say what he wants to say and give it a chance to happen because it's really likely that he's going to bring it to life. And this guy, he's done all of that. Russell Wilson has taught me that somebody can be so, that a person can live a life and be so extraordinarily consistently confident and believe in himself and make it come to work every single day, every day, forever. He's missed one play, knock on wood, in the years we've been together,

eight or nine years we've been together, he's missed one play. He's never missed practice. He's never missed a meeting. He's never missed – but forget all that. He's never missed the opportunity to be on the absolute tip of the spear and driving to be as good as he can be. And I got to put this out there because I saved your ass on social media back when

he did a... Here we go! He did. No, no, he did the, I don't want to call it impossible because I'm talking physics here. He did the improbable. He did a lateral

that was a forward pass, but he was running so fast that his backward lateral ended up moving forward on the grid itself. And so I just said, look, whatever the rules are, you can't fault the guy for running faster forward than the ball that he throws backward. You can't fault him. Yeah running faster forward than the ball that he throws backward. You can't fault him. Yeah, that's Galilean stuff.

Galilean transformation. So that would be a play that, consistent with what you said a moment ago, that he made happen that it's like, no, you can't do that. But he did it, and he did it successfully, and everyone said it's a legit play. He was probably one play in his career from going in the tank. When that happened and you pointed it out, everything changed. The whole world shifted. No, I'm just kidding.

It didn't happen that way. He's been lateral in the ball all his life, but somebody finally told us what just happened. That was really a fun moment. Did you tweet that out or something? I tweeted it. I tweeted it and you do it in slow motion. He's running forward. Who was the running back?

Michael Davis. Michael Davis was behind him the whole time. He pitches back to him. But while the ball is airborne, they're both still running forward down the field. And then when Michael Davis catches the ball, he catches it forward of the point where Russell Wilson released it. But Russell Wilson is still ahead of him in this moment. So it was a beautifully executed play, and I'm glad they let it stay

because otherwise they'd have to slow down the game. You can't fault the guy for running faster than the ball. Come on. There is nothing in the rule book that talks about Galileo, I promise you. And they never mention the word transformation either. Neither one of those are mentioned. But that was a great illustration. And they never mentioned the word transformation either. Neither one of those are mentioned, but that was a great illustration. I think everybody that ever watched ball and saw that moment learned from that.

And everybody remembers how that worked. I used to think of it as throwing stuff out the window when I was driving in the car, you know, throw something that my buddy's driving next to me or something like that. And it stays with you. I had no idea. We were on to something. It was great. Let's driving next to me or something like that and it stays with you I had no idea we were on to something it was great let's go back to to Russell Wilson not every player as you well know turns up with the full package on board and you know that there are players turn up with so much talent it's untrue but they fail to launch how do you as a coach ensure that that failure becomes less and less and less

each season? Well, that is ultimately our challenge. That's what we deal with on a regular basis. And so I'll give you an idea. One of the things that we do when we get to know our players and as we're learning who they are, what they are, is we try to gauge what kind of a competitor they are. What do they have innately in them that makes them who they are? And then once we evaluate that, then we try to determine how can we strategize ways to help him find other elements of his potential and see if we can't stir those. Sometimes you button your head against the wall and it ain't happening. And some of the most marvelously talented athletes just don't have the

other aspects of their makeup, and it's like, goes back to Yogi's thing, you know, it's, there's a great deal of our performance arts are about the mental side of things, and we can't deny that, and some players are able to lean on that even more than they do their athleticism, so we're always challenged, and so we have our ways, we kind of put them on the grid in a sense that we try to figure them out. And then we try to strategize and we'll even pair them with different people and have different people talk to them and we'll do whatever it takes. Because in our sense, we're competing to figure that out. So that means we are going for it. So we relentlessly pursue trying to find the guys' highest points. We have found that that whole

mentality, which has been proven over time, high expectations really do help people elevate their performance if you maintain a connection with it and keep them connected. So it's really cool stuff. Yeah, Coach, you and I both know, because we've been around people like what I'm about to describe, they will not adhere to a disciplined program. Yet when they go

out and perform, they max out all the levels, yet they will not conform to the program you've set in. How do you handle someone who gives you so much on the field and is a pain in the arse off the field? I handle those guys really well.

I've had a lot of experience with guys who just don't want to conform. They just don't see themselves as part of the system, as part of the ongoing way that the game has always been or being on the team and all that. And that's why, to me, I don't know where it came from, but trying to unlock this unique quality, the extraordinary special way that a person presents themselves to their life

is really important to me because I don't want to miss a chance to find a guy's opportunity to be great in what he's pursuing. He wants to be a great ball player. And even though all of these reasons get you, I've had guys in my past, particularly back in college, I've told guys, stop trying to get yourself thrown out of this program or kicked out of school I'm not throwing you out I don't care how hard you try no matter what you do you're not getting kicked out I'm going to be the one that

hangs with you I'm going to be there at the end and still be pulling you through and not say okay you're a screw off and you're out of here and so I you know I die hard on these guys because I particularly when I can feel it in my heart that they have something to offer and something to find in themselves. But, yeah, you have to find the level of communication that works with the athletes that are inclined to be kind of, I got to be on the outside. You know, it's – the most typical is the last guy that walks into the meeting room. I mean, like, come on, man. Obviously, you're just trying to make that – you know, okay, come on. I mean, like, come on, man.

Obviously, you're just trying to make that, you know, okay, come on. You know, we'll make space for a guy who just can't cross that because that's what's – otherwise, that would get in his way. You'd be kicking the guy out of the program. He'd never have a chance to play, and he'd miss the opportunity for that extraordinary input that he would bring. Do you find any that is – any position that is more prone to that mentality? any position that is more prone to that mentality. So, I mean, there's got to be personality attributes that are, you know, that are pronounced in certain position play. I mean, I'm sure that a lineman and a wide receiver have different mentalities and personalities.

I don't know this. I'm really asking. I've never played professional football, but it just seems that way. And I know, Chuck, you wouldn't want to be one to categorize and throw guys in a heap, right? You don't want to do that. But yes, there is. And there has been kind of a, it's kind of pass receivers and pass rushers

for some reason. Those guys have always been the, generally the guys that are the farthest out there. And even when you look at it, wide that are the farthest out there. And even when you look at it, wide receivers are the farthest away from the football and pass rushers are the farthest alignment away from the football. There's something about they want to get a long ways away to do their business. But there are always people that cross over. There's guys in all different positions that have made the crossover to be in the knucklehead sometimes.

And also the extraordinary makeup and have the components that make them unique. So coach, there's an interesting, you said something, I think psychologically deep there. I mean, we're applying this to football, but I mean, we live in a time where there are medications to take you out of different mental states. If you're anxious, if you're depressed, if you're elated, if you're whatever.

of different mental states. If you're anxious, if you're depressed, if you're elated, if you're whatever. And in a day before we had these medications to centralize who and what you were, there were many people with great expressions of art who had these odd personality, Isaac Newton among them. And so what I wonder is what you have done is you've said to yourself, this person is a package and I'm going to handle everything in the package.

I'm not going to edit it. I'm not going to amputate bits of who and what they are, because that's what they are. You've started taking away one part. You don't know if that's going to be torquing some other part of them that actually is enabling them to perform at their highest game. So I just want to compliment you for seeing that and not being the disciplinarian, because in the end, what have you done? You've taken away the joy. You've taken away the spirit energy that these players had

that got them there in the first place. Neil, what he didn't tell you, though, is that he puts ecstasy in their Gatorade. No, we don't. I just naturally infused that. But what I would say, there's a couple of things. You opened up a real interesting area here. One of them is, in defense of a thought,

is that I think the discipline that it takes to be a great artist, the discipline that it takes to be a great artist, the discipline that it takes to be a great dancer, a great musical performer, singer, piano player, whatever it is, as well as an athlete, as well as a scientist, as well as a leader, as well. I think that there's makeups that if we try to categorize them, we're going to leave too many people out. And my thought is that I need to be so open to the extraordinary things that people have inside of them that I'm going to go to the greatest length to uncover that. And in that, I think that takes discipline. Yeah, but coach, you are demonstrating to us that you have very

high EQ, all right? The emotional quotient, I think they call it, where you know and understand how people are feeling, how people are thinking, how think they call it, where you know and understand how people are feeling, how people are thinking, how to manage that. But this is the 21st century, Jack. And we have AI, we have technology, we have chips to put in their shoes. We can know things about them that you're not going to get just by singing kumbaya. So where is the balance between the technology you know that can help you improve your coaching and have them improve their game, and then the rest of what it is you've been describing? Yeah, I think we have one of the most cutting-edge performance groups supporting our program

in analytics. All of the science that we bring to it is there for us to process because there is marvelous information that comes through. I don't know know about a and i stuff but i do know that somewhere in here you got put that that information into use and we have to make that declaration where it does fit and i'm sure that there's science to do that but that's what i'm doing i'm trying to take all the see if you're competing let me get this you're either competing or you're not that means you're either trying every single freaking thing you can think of in every direction you can think of it until you can't breathe anymore to figure out how to solve a problem. And in that, what information is not worth? What would I turn away? What would I be willing to say,

oh, I don't know that. I need everything. Coach, what's the phenom of the future going to look like? Is it going to be a Russell Wilson type of guy who gets the picture focused from before he even walks through your front door? Yeah, I don't think we're going to be able to add so much to make a person an extraordinary competitive performer. I don't know that we have that. We can enhance it. We can do a lot of things to improve them and make them more disciplined and find the repetitions that they need. But the really extraordinary athletes, they're kind of born, I think. There are people out there. The point I would make to that is that we're more able now than ever

to teach young people what that is. What is that that they might not have been able to understand that was working inside them and it got misdirected or misguided that they can say, hey, wait a minute. I see things like that. That guy sees it. I can sense what he's sensing. And it takes them and they slowly gravitate their way to becoming something that always they had the potential and that hadn't been inspired yet. So I think that there's going to be more, but they're so rare. And it's so worth looking for.

But the point for us, let's just get them closer. Let's take them closer to Mecca here. Let's see if we can get them to a place where they can really cut it loose and perform. And the whole performance model is something that will be fun to talk about if you guys get to that. Well, this is very high wisdom. We've got to call a break here for this segment. but when we come back we're gonna have angela duckworth

talking about death vet renew she'll catapult catapult us further in this whole concept of grit and how it distinguishes those who achieve from everybody else on StarTalk. StarTalk, we're back. The making of a phenom. In the second segment, continuing what is the third installment of this series, we're going to bring in someone who is an expert on, shall we say, grit. All that it takes to want to do something, whatever that is, whatever that recipe might be. Coming off the horn with Pete Carroll,

learning about how he's trying to get his players to be all they can be. And we've had to find the one expert in the world who knows about grit. In fact, she wrote the book on grit, literally and figuratively. And that's Professor Angela Duckworth. Angela, welcome to StarTalk. Hi, Neil. I'm happy to be here. Excellent. You're a professor of psychology, University of Pennsylvania. Very cool. Author

of Grit, The Power and Passion of Perseverance. See what you did there with that alliteration. Very nice. Yeah, did you catch that? I'm glad you appreciated it. Totally good. Writer to writer. You co-host the podcast No Stupid Questions. That should be the title of every podcast. And you were also a MacArthur Genius Fellow back in 2013. So you've got all the pedigree that we need and want for this show right now. So let's just come right out of this and say, what is grit? I've been studying high achievers for my whole career as a psychologist, and grit is one thing they have in common,

and that is to say they have passion and perseverance over really long time frames. So they're not just crazy about what they do and working hard for like a day or a week, but for years, decades, and for some people, even a lifetime, working in one direction. Okay, it's one thing to just identify it because they have it, but that's not as useful as not having it and wanting to get it. So is there a way to get it if you don't have it? After I wrote the book, I actually collected more data, and most people actually would like to be grittier. You might ask, right?

Why did I write a book? Maybe I should have done that before I wrote a book. But some people, by the way, don't. They're like, I'm good. And I actually didn't have many people at all say that they'd be happier if they were less passionate about what they were doing, less hardworking, less resilient, less persevering. So how do I get more of it?

I mean, first I'll say, I think almost everything about you, like how talkative you are, how gritty you are, how detail-oriented, really anything about you psychologically, I think can be changed. And I think for the most part, you can do something to change these things intentionally versus just waiting around for age and experience. And I've lots of suggestions, but I'll start with one, which is just to believe that human nature is malleable. That's often called a growth mindset, believing that abilities like intelligence

or other things that seem like they're fixed and you'll never change them about yourself, are actually biologically true, that we're mostly works in progress. So even believing that you could get grittier should help you become grittier. Because one thing humans have, it's flexibility and adapting to circumstances and rising to the occasion. It reminds me of that Shakespeare quote from Twelfth Night where he said, some people are born great, some people achieve greatness,

and some people have greatness thrust upon them. I'm not going to add any words to Shakespeare. No, you can't. You can't mangle Shakespeare. Chuck, Gary, I know you had some questions for her. Yeah. Your research and your findings have been about the individual, that point where you find grit or grit finds you, whichever way this thing works.

I go back to what we've just discussed with Pete Carroll. He's saying that he sets up a program in his environment where an athlete will not be thrown under the bus. They will not allow someone to foul. They pick him up and they drag. How important is it to have it from the other way around where there's grit and determination in the external environment, not just fomenting itself in you? You know, one of the myths of grit is that it's like all about you, that it's like you against the world. And actually, when you study people, you know, women and men who are truly great at what they do, I mean, whether it's being a football player or a civic activist or, you know, physicist, they almost invariably, and in my research, like every time, have

other people who are helping them, right? Most obviously a coach, but also your teammates, but also, you know, your family, significant others. So I think that one of the reasons why I like to study Pete as an example of grit, but also somebody who is intentionally cultivating grit, is that I think he gets that. He understands that nobody is going to be an individual against the world who's really passionate and persevering. Everybody has to be part of a group or a team that is all of those things. Well, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient.

Because you can shower any random person with all that level of support, and they're not going to rise and become a pro football player. Yeah, they don't use a lottery to do the NFL draft, right? Right, right. You know, famously, the NFL draft is imperfect, right? So, you know, every season, people like to talk about how coaches or scouts or GMs got it wrong with, you know with picking this person. After the fact, especially.

Yeah, after the fact, when it's very easy to look in the rearview mirror and say, you woulda, coulda, shoulda. Right. I think you can't take any random person, put them on the Seahawks, and expect them to be Russell Wilson. So it's not either or. When it comes to human nature and performance, it's always both and. So what role does talent play in all of this? Let's say you're incredibly talented. And quite frankly, for some people, things come easier for some than it does for others.

So for that example, Chuck, for this question, we're defining talent as the things somebody seems to have without having really tried hard. And then say, well, let's develop that talent, and everyone focuses on them. And so I'm curious about that, because I'm not a big fan of thinking that someone has abilities because of some inbred talent. I'd like to believe, however delusional I am,

that how good you are is how hard you've worked at it. So, yeah, I'm curious, how does the word talent rest with you? Well, I'm in your camp, Neil. Let me say, I don't think everybody's born exactly equal in all talents, so that's naive. But I don't think that's what either of us are saying. I think what we're saying is that when you find somebody

who is truly world-class at what they do, it sometimes seems like they were born doing that. It sometimes feels like they have some supernatural ability that everyone else doesn't have. That's what makes them so great. But if you actually look under the hood and you find out what were they like in their first year, second year, third year, you so often find that there was a learning curve and there were hours and hours of practice. We're having this conversation shortly after Anders Ericsson passed away, the world expert on world experts, and he had a very strong opinion on this. I mean, he really did. He had the extreme view that there are hardly any real genetic differences in talent.

But I think the message, whether you want to go that far or not, is that greatness is earned. In an earlier show, we had talked about, who's our famous swimmer with 87 gold medals? Michael Phelps. You can say, oh, he's got the body type, and he's got this, and he's got webbed toes, or whatever you're going to invoke. Double-jointed.

Exactly. And then you realize the guy's got the body type, and he's got this, and he's got webbed toes, or whatever you're going to invoke. Double-jointed. Exactly. And then you realize the guy's in the water 16 hours a day. Whatever the number is, the guy is working out all the freaking time. And the gills help. The gills do help. So when we drill down to this, do we get to the bottom layer and go, talent is overrated? I think talent is overrated. I think talent is overrated. I think effort is overshadowed, right? I mean, so many young people in particular count themselves out

because, you know, they look to their left, they look to their right, and they see somebody who's, you know, better than them. And actually, you know, like it's getting things faster, right? I mean, we've all experienced that, right? I remember, I don't even think I was, I know I wasn't the smartest person in my graduating class in college. I, I know I wasn't the smartest person in my graduating class in college. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the smartest person in my high school. I may not have been even the smartest person in my elementary school homeroom, right?

Wait, wait, just to be clear, didn't you graduate summa cum laude? Magna cum laude. Oh, excuse me. Oh, the idiot class. Magna cum laude. Sorry. Yeah.

I'm still getting over it. So sorry for you. It's okay. Just for the non-Latin fluent people, you can graduate cum laude. Sorry. I'm still going to go over it. So sorry for you. It's okay. Just for the non-Latin fluent people, you can graduate cum laude, which was honors, and then magna cum laude, high honors, and then summa cum laude, highest honors. And so you were

just high honors. I was just high honors. That's special. I just hear phenom. I can't speak Latin, but I just hear phenom when you explain it to me like that. Okay, Professor, this is eating away in my head now we've had this discussion because we've all been here. You're going to do that until you get better, right?

So if you do your effort and your energy, but you do it under duress because it's a punishment or your technique is poor, surely I'm dedicating myself to the task. I'm putting in the effort. But if it's misguided, am I not building myself a time bomb here? Yeah. Okay. So there are a couple of ways to get this wrong. One of the people that I interviewed for the book on grit was a double gold medal rower. And his first name was Mats and the last name I will get wrong, so I'll just leave it at that. He went and tried to help other rowers learn to be great. One of the mistakes he found is that the idea sometimes in their head

that you just work harder and longer, that there's no strategy. In fact, that's wrong. He's like, no, you've got to work smarter too. You can get it wrong by thinking, I'm just going to work myself to the bone, but not think constantly, how could I do this better? Is there a faster way? Is there a more efficient way? Who should I be asking for advice? So you have to have a strategic mindset about practice

and not just, oh, more is better and harder is better and more tired is better. I think that's one big way people get things wrong. So this is where good coaching matters, and good guidance. I think good guidance, by the way, that often happens not just in your coaches' coaches, but your parents. I think that parents do their kids a great service when they model, but also when they just tell their kids directly

that a lot in life is like not about you know just being exhausted when you fall into bed at night but thinking cleverly and tactically about everything that you're doing but i want to get back to a point that chuck made which was at what point is it valuable for others to pressure you to perform what's that movie that with the drummer uh came out a couple of years ago? Oh my God. J.K. Simmons. With J.K. Simmons. Yeah, I know, but what's it called? It's going to kill me. In that movie. One of us could Google it. The movie had a premise that I actually, in my life experience for myself and anything I've ever seen, that I don't agree with. It assumes that

you get great because someone is pushing you to greatness. And I think someone can push you to become better. But for someone to push you to become great, everyone I know who is great was self-driven. This is the grit that you're talking about. So at what point should a parent say, I will not make my kid play piano three hours a day every day from age six because I'm going to destroy them. At what point does that become they now perform in Carnegie Hall because I did that as a parent? I mean, okay, we should talk about Andre Agassi, but before we do, let me just agree with you, like 100%. Like I too, Neil, have like never found somebody who was truly great at what they did

because they had tiger parents, right? parents. Psychologists like to talk about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation comes from within. Your goals are things that you fully own and you feel like they were freely chosen. They feel like they express your identity. They're about your intrinsic interest. You're not fulfilling someone else's lost dreams or anything. Yeah, my mom told me to. My dad will be disappointed.

I can even make a lot of money doing this. These are all extrinsic motivations. And like you, I don't have examples from my research of people who became truly great without intrinsic motivation. But I do think we should talk about Andre Agassi because, you know, he does describe his child. It's wild to force them. Yeah. It was insane. It was like basically child abuse at a country club. Country club child abuse.

That's what it was. It was like country club child abuse. Get in there and hit that ball. I can't face another brunch. That's right. No smoked salmon if you don't get this across the... I don't honestly, I don't have

an explanation for that. But I have to say, if it's even true, then it's the exception that proves the rule because at some point, the motivation runs out when it's extrinsic. And I'll also tell you this about truly gritty people and you could reflect a moment.

Just quick, we just got our researchers. The movie was Whiplash. Whiplash. Oh, thank you. I can now sleep tonight because otherwise it's going to bother me. Well, otherwise I'd have to Google it myself, actually. But, you know, one of the things that makes people great is, you know, this kind of like really effortful practice. It's called deliberate practice.

But there's something else, too, which is like if you are really great at what you do, I guarantee you're thinking about it all the time. You think about it when you go to bed, you think about it when you wake up, you wake up in the middle of the night to get a drink of water like I do. And you're literally thinking about this thing that you, it's like having a voluntary obsession. And so I don't think that comes from external motivation. Now, can there be a grit gap bridge? So for instance, so you see that in a child that they have a proclivity and you see that they have a bent and you know that you need to push them in that direction, but they're resistant. So now you apply the pressure, you push them. And then in the process, they become good. They're becoming good, starts to motivate them. And there's the transfer

of motivation from outward to inward. And now it's like, now I'm on my own, like training wheels. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Chuck. Get them across the gap to get them across the gap. Yeah. I don't believe in like,uting your motivation for your kids' motivation or your players' motivation for years. But you're absolutely right. Every great coach knows that there are good days and bad days and that there are days where people come in and they're really confident and that there are days where they come in and they are not. And one of the things that coaches do is they are that bridge for that little bit. Sometimes that takes the form of pep talks, but very often, I'll tell you what coaches do,

is they strategically set up the next few experiences to provide some small wins. So they know that they've got this cycle of confidence and performance that can be positive. They know it can've got this cycle of confidence and performance that can be positive. They know it can be negative too, and they just kickstart the cycle with a few. I even know one coach, he actually lied.

He was a track coach, and so he had an excellent track athlete, but had a little slump, was feeling really down on himself. And he was like, you know what, I know you weren't feeling great today, but just take four laps, right? Let's just see how you're doing, but give it to me, right? And he just lied. He just was like, oh, wow, that was a PR, right? And you can't lie too much, and I'm not advocating lying, but I do think that there are gaps,

as you say, and a great parent or coach, you know, in strategic ways, like, helps fix those. But not like, you know, I'm substituting my motivation for your motivation for like a decade. Right. But that's coaching psychology because, yeah, because you need that, Neil. When I was in college, we had a very rough wrestling schedule ahead of us, and I think the coach was worried that we'd get trounced. And so in the calendar, he put in these other schools before the main season began. And these are sort of lesser known competitors.

And we just kicked ass the first part of the season. And we all felt pretty good. So this is the coach. Unfortunately, that strategy doesn't work well for those people. For the other folks. It's great for you. Did you learn something from wrestling that you feel like, you know, did you learn like life lessons from wrestling that, you know,

helped you become a great scientist? In fact, yes, I did, but we've got to take a break. And will you stay around for our third and final segment, which we call Shoot the Shit? Can you hang out for that? I can, but you're not going to make me curse, but yeah. Okay. Shoot the stuff. How about that? I'd, but you're not going to make me curse, but yeah. Okay. I'll shoot the stuff.

How about that? I'd like that. Yes, I'll stay for that. Okay. When we come back, more of grit expert Angela Duckworth on StarTalk, for the third and final segment of StarTalk Sports Edition, The Making of a Phenom. We're having a most excellent conversation with the woman who wrote the book on grit.

And Angela, what's the full title of that book again? Grit, the... Power of Passion and Perseverance. Power of Passion and Perseverance. And you're a professor of psychology at University of Pennsylvania, right there in Chuck's hometown. That's right, Philadelphia. You're from Philly? I didn't know that, Chuck. Yeah. That's right. Philadelphia.

You're from Philly? I didn't know that, Chuck. Yeah, I'm originally from Philadelphia. Yeah, we get it too often. Go Birds. He's an Eagles fan. Yes, sir. Okay, by the way, Chuck, I did the count one day.

There's like at least two dozen professional sports teams that are named after birds. So you can't just say Go Birds. I don't have anybody know what the hell you're talking about. There's only one birds. There's only one birds. hell you're talking about. There's only one birds. There's only one birds. There's only one birds. There's only one birds. See, that's the thing.

The Orioles are birds. The Seahawks are birds. No, no, no. The UJs are birds. No, no, sorry. The Cardinals are birds. No, no, no. There's only one birds when you're talking about football,

and that's the Philadelphia Eagles. By the way, the Eagles. We won't break into song, but we could. Yeah, and the Eagle bird when you're talking about football, and that's the Philadelphia Eagles. By the way, the Eagles. We won't break into song, but we could. Yeah, and the Eagle, when you think about it, of all the birds you named, the Eagle is the top of the food chain. I mean, look, Eagle versus Oriole, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oriole loses.

That's an ornithological disaster, okay? Yeah. Most birds will lose against an Eagle, for sure. So we left off with the break. Angela, you had asked me whether my time as a wrestler contributed any insights. I think wrestling itself requires a bit of grit, maybe not in the academic sense that you're describing, but it's just you and an opponent,

and it's in every bit of muscle coordination you know strength agility and so this there's such focusing of that and if you lose you lost because the person beat you you can't blame it on the other team member that somebody dropped your pad there's none of that okay this is you on your one-on-one it is one-on-one and it is like the purest form of combat it's because it's just muscle against muscle so i think about wrestling when if i have a large task ahead of me and it feels uh intractable and i just think of being on the mat and thinking i will die unless i summon energy it's like you appeal to the gods. You know, you find places within your mind, body, soul

that you can reach to, to assemble motivation, strength, adrenaline, whatever is the key chemical, right? That, I mean, legal chemical, physiological force to enable it. And so just remembering those moments, I think have helped me develop and sustain the grit that I know I have needed throughout my life. And you are right. Even though I have to say it differently.

You say you wake up in the middle of the night to get water. I wake up in the middle of the night to go pee. Okay, that's the difference between us. Okay. No, that too. But the... First one and the other. But you're right.

Practically every waking moment, I am thinking about the universe and ways of delivering it, ways of... It's almost an obsession. But let me lead off because we're just chewing fat here. Let me ask you, for these people who do have this grit that you described, is it at the expense of their home life, their family life, their personal hygiene? Is the obsession in such a way that they become separated from the mainstream conduct of civilization? Let's hope for the wrestlers

that it is in personal hygiene. Agreed. Totally agree. It is, actually. That's in personal hygiene. I dated one once. But anyway, I mean, not like... You dated a wrestler?

Was it a wrestler? That doesn't sound good. Yeah. I'm going to stop right here. Okay. But once I was giving a talk at a company that shall remain nameless, and the wife of the CEO comes running after me.

I'm literally leaving to get into the car and go to the airport. She was like, what do you think happens at home when somebody is so passionate and persevering about their work? That's all they do, that's all that's like, that's all they do. That's all they think about. That's all they were motivated by. And,

you know, it didn't take me long to kind of figure out where she was going, but I do think an obsession. And when you said like, it's almost like an obsession, it is an obsession, right? Like it can crowd out other things.

And, and, and, and that includes like your family or your kids. So I do think it's something that, you know, the root word of passion means sacrifice, right? So I don't want to paint like a perfect picture of grit because it's true that it can come at a cost.

Is this how you get the passion of Christ, is the sacrifice of Christ? Yeah, well, same root word. I mean, I'm sure it was in like, you know, other languages. So Professor, if I get my grit and I get myself together and my external environment, my internal environment, but as my journey moves forward, the use of that grit is most likely going to change

because in my 20s, I'll use it in one way. Maybe in my 30s and 40s, I'll use it in another way. Or am I just making that up? in my 20s, I'll use it in one way. Maybe in my 30s and 40s, I'll use it in another way. Or am I just making that up? No, I mean, I think as you evolve, I mean, when you're a rookie, right? Like what you need to work on is like just different. I mean, you know, also, by the way, most athletes and even most people who aren't athletes, like they're employed in some company or something, they're not leaders yet, right? Like usually you don't lead until you're in the game.

At some point, you know, when you're a leader, the young people who are under you are better at you at certain things. You're just coordinating everything. I do think the challenges are different. But one thing I really admire about these paragons of grit, I like to call them, these women and men who are maximum in passion and perseverance,

is that they never stop learning. Pete Carroll is a great example. That guy is as curious to learn about what he should be doing now. At this point, what is he, the oldest coach in the NFL, I think maybe? 68. As when he was a rookie coach. That to me is really amazing. Whatever it is in your current chapter of life,

to be attacking it with that kind of passion. No, but Angela, let me sharpen his question. If I have grit that makes me a great athlete, that has an expiration date. Right. Because there's a point where I can't be that same athlete. Right, yeah. Yeah, but okay, so I become coach,

but does that take grit to become a coach if I needed the grit to be an athlete? So what happens to grit? And for me, my grit can last until my brain doesn't work anymore, so I'm good with that. But so to tighten the question that Gary asked, the grit that gets you to where you need to be,

that's a function of your physiology, which then changes and you cannot do it. What happens to that person? What happens next, right? Now put on your psychology hat. Now tell me what happens to that person. Well, I mean, let's just use you as an example, right? Because it sounds like you learned a lot from wrestling.

My guess is, knowing what you've done in your professional life, that you were probably a pretty gritty athlete when you were wrestling, if you cared about it anyway. That's the same question in a way, which is, what transfers? When somebody like Michael Phelps stops swimming, are they a total slacker, or do they transfer that kind of attitude, those mindsets, those habits, to something else?

So you're saying it's a deeper psychological mindset? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I would say this, right? It is a struggle. As you probably know, many professional athletes struggle mightily when they retire. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Definitely. And some could argue that the majority don't do as well as we wished we could say they did on all fronts. But some of them do. And I would say the trick, if you want to ask practically speaking, if the good thing is to transfer all those psychological assets from something you used to do to something new because it's different entirely, the trick is to actually understand the general principles, right? Like if wrestling, you know, I went to West Point and I actually talked to the wrestlers there among other athletes. And I remember actually the kid who I was talking to who was a wrestler at West Point said that when his coach talked about wrestling, he said, I'm not talking about

wrestling. I'm talking about life. And so the coach did this really good job of explaining, oh, what happened today? That was about failure. All right, let's talk about failure. This is called working on your weaknesses. Let's talk about that. And then that kid is going to grow up, and he's probably not going to be a professional athlete, but he's going to carry those general lessons about life. By the way, none of you surely know this, but the National Wrestling Organization has a Hall of Fame membership, and there's a category that doesn't go to people who are great wrestlers.

It goes to people who are wrestlers who became great. Oh, great people. Right, great people. And you look at the great. Oh, great people. Right, great people. And you look at the list. Oh, that's awesome. Abraham Lincoln. Did you know this boy wrestled? What?

Yes. That boy Abraham Lincoln wrestled. It's a brilliant category. So it's great people who wrestle rather than wrestlers who are great wrestlers. So this is exactly in your line there. Yeah, and maybe we should be sharing like, sharing that with kids, right, so that they could understand that, like, look,

you're not going to play, you know, tennis forever, or you're not going to, like, run track forever, but, like, you're learning these life lessons. Let me ask this because, I mean, I'll use, because I'm British, I'll use. Again, we only have a few more minutes. I'll speak quickly. Speed that up. All right, so you don't know how strong a teabag is

until you drop it into hot water. So if you use that analogy with an individual, all of a sudden this person is in a situation and the grit surfaces, but they've never, ever displayed it before. How do you encapsulate that? They have third-degree burns all over their body. Well, for starters. Yeah, you're going to have to have a disclaimer on your show notes that you don't really mean that we should drop kids into hot water. Okay, so I do believe that, you know, sometimes people rise to the occasion, right?

And, like, they can display a character that, you know, maybe wasn't obvious before. This is Shakespeare, greatness thrust upon you. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, I'll also say as a psychologist, like, you know, it usually doesn't come out of the sky, right? Usually when people are great under pressure or demonstrate sterling character under conditions of adversity, it's not like there was no symptom or sign of that prior.

So I think greatness can be thrust upon you. I certainly believe the opportunity to learn is often thrust upon us. And just to, we got to bring this to some closure, but let me try to get your final reflections, Angela. Does the grit, if a person keeps failing and they keep coming back trying it a little differently, okay, it's possible to have grit but not actually succeed. So grit itself is not the guarantee of success.

But what is the psychological, just getting back to your wheelhouse here, the psychology of the person who failed? Is there the risk? What risks do you face? Getting back to am I exercising this muscle by failing and recovering? What risk do I face of losing all hope in myself? If you do something like the first year, second year, third year, fourth year, I actually talked to this guy.

He wanted to become a vet. It's really hard to become a veterinarian. It's harder to get into vet school than med school. Literally, I think it was the 11th year that he was denied admission at all the schools he applied to. You could ask the question, does Angela Duckworth tell this guy to go for 12 years? I didn't say, hey...

The grit lady. What does the grit lady tell me? I didn't. I didn't say, hey, maybe you should just keep applying. There's information there. I asked him, why do you think he didn't get in? He was talking about scores aren't good? I asked him, like, why do you think he didn't, like, get in? And then, like, you know, he was talking about, like, you know, scores aren't good, whatever. But I asked him another question, which is, like,

why do you want to be a veterinarian, right? And he said, you know, I love animals. Like, it's just, you know, like, I really want to have my whole life to be, like, caring for animals. I was like, okay, is there something else that you could do that gets you to the same end, right? Is there a different – and I think this is the thing. Yeah, I think it can be really dangerous to be grittily pursuing some thing where it is, frankly, a dead end.

But I think if you ask yourself, why am I on this path? Right. You might find yourself not in a dead end, but it's just a detour. Right. Like it's like, oh, I want to take care of animals. Like, I could be a zookeeper, right? Like, I could actually work in, you know, like somebody's lab who's like, you know, doing research to help animals. Like, there are other ways that you could achieve the higher level goal, the sort of the why behind what you were doing in the first place. And I think that's the life lesson for me is like, you should be gritty about your higher level goals, but you should be flexible about the lower level means to those ends. Wow, that's great.

Angela, thank you for being with us on StarTalk. You have this beautifully constructed expertise that we might have to come back to to get a little more of what it is you have to. Very excellent to hear that. Chuck, always good to have you there. Gary, my man, my man, my British man. There you go. Thank you.

Thank you. This has been StarTalk Sports Edition, episode three of The Making of a Phenom. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, bidding you to keep looking up.