StarTalk Radio - Satellite Showdown

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

How do satellites work? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Chuck Nice explore CubeSats, space lasers, and the ecology of low Earth orbit with VP of Raytheon, Sandy Brown, and associate professor of aeronautics and astronautics, Kerri Cahoy. NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://startalkmedia.com/show/satellite-showdown/Photo Credit: NASA, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. I got with me Chuck Nice, as usual, my co-host. Chuck, how you doing, man? Hey, Neil. What's happening? All right. We got a tasty episode today as usual, my co-host. Chuck, how you doing, man? Hey, Neil. What's happening? All right.

We got a tasty episode today. Oh, my gosh. It's data from space coming down to Earth, going in back to space. How does it happen? Who's doing it? Why are we doing it? I'm sorry to say, that's every episode we do. Okay.

That is true. We're bringing the universe down to Earth. Yes, that is episode we do. Okay. That is true. We're bringing the universe down to earth. Yes, that is what we do. That's what you said. We get a lot of inquiries about CubeSats and nanosatellites and all of these things. Yes. And we figured it's time to go to the source, or at least one of the more important sources of the world,

of who's been obtaining data and how they do it. And let's just get right to it. We're going to talk to one of the vice presidents of Raytheon Technology, Sandra Brown. Totally. Sandra Brown, welcome to StarTalk. Thank you. It's so nice to be here, Neil and Chuck. Excellent. Excellent. So you're vice president of what for Raytheon? Right. I am vice president of a mission area called Digital Emission Solutions, which is a part of our larger spaced and command and control business. So essentially, we develop space-based sensors, ground systems,

precision navigation and timing, processing, data sensemaking, multi-domain, tactical and strategic command and control. We also do a little environmental and climate sensors, Earth observation, missile warning, and defense structures. Wow. Okay, so nothing gets by you, basically. Nothing gets by us. We've got it all locked down.

Here's what I just heard, is that space is a business right now. That's what I just heard. Space is a big business. Well, it is true. When people typically think of space, they think of NASA. Yeah. But if you look at NASA's budget, which is small as a fraction of our GDP compared with the Apollo era, it's small. And so a whole lot of stuff is happening in space. And when we refer to space in this context, Sandy,

is it almost entirely either low Earth orbit or just between here and the moon? Is that correct? Between here and the moon, right. So what kind of projects are you working on now? Well, specifically in my area, we have a lot of extremely cool stuff, and that's a technical term. We're building the next generation of ground systems. We're supporting the critical generation of ground systems. We're supporting

the critical weather and Earth observation instruments, and of course, laying the foundation for commanding and controlling satellites. Can you tell me what ground systems are? I'm not, you said that, but I don't know what that is. Systems on the ground. Duh.

You're like, Chuck, there are systems in the air, and there are systems above the air. We call that space. And then you got the stuff on the ground. Okay. That's the ground systems. All right. Right.

So when you're talking about satellite command and control, you're really talking about four things. You're talking about an operation center. You're talking about a ground station. You're talking about the ground network, and you're talking about an operation center. You're talking about a ground station. You're talking about the ground network, and you're talking about the satellite. And that's how the ground station allows you to actually communicate with that satellite via the operation center.

Okay, so these are radio microwave dishes or something, right? That's correct. They're basically telescopes. They're basically telescopes. And what role did you play with JWST? Because that's been in all the news, right? And delightfully so. I mean, I love it when our stuff, when my people, you know, make headlines.

You know, it's like, my people out there. I feel good. It means that there's a genuine curiosity in the public. Right, right. To what extent have you helped to serve that? Well, have you seen the images released from Jupiter? I mean, I don't need to be a world-renowned astrophysicist to understand how incredible capturing those images are to science.

It's so exciting for me to see every new image created and captured by James Webb. For our part, Raytheon Intelligence in Space installed the Webb's ground control system at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. the Webb's Ground Control System at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. So the ground system, yeah. So the ground system primarily responsible for maintaining the health and safety of the observatory and supports the command and control of the telescope.

So essentially our software receives the observation data and transfers information to the system that is accessible to astronomers and other scientists. So at the risk of stating the obvious, Sandy, in principle, NASA could have done all of this from scratch. Right. But when they look at the landscape of space technologies that are out there, they say, well, we want to talk to our telescope.

Who does it best? And then they shop around and there's Raytheon. And so then you then install your ops and you probably your people are there too, right? Absolutely. Right. However, I will say that from a business model, it doesn't make sense just to do this for NASA. So the other applications have to be there. And what would those be? So you're looking at these, you know. The building blocks. I mean, we have the people that have been doing, you know, programming, systems engineering,

the integration for a very long time. So we use those building blocks specific to support our customers' requirements. So we're not ever having to start from scratch. Specific to the James Webb, our software, you know, we reused where we could, but that software is used to rebuild the images that we received from the James Webb. We program the coding languages necessary to take those ones and zeros and make them images for our human eyes to see.

So we're reusing a lot of the optical technologies that we've already developed, a lot of reuse from other programs, and we just really customize it to fit the need of the James Webb. And again, at the risk of stating the obvious, but it's, I mean, it's a historical thing. Absolutely.

I've written at length about this, but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. Isn't it true that, I mean, a big part of Raytheon's portfolio is defense systems. Absolutely. I've written at length about this, but I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. Isn't it true that a big part of Raytheon's portfolio is defense systems? Absolutely. You also have scientists and the engineering that supports science leading another kind of communications or data frontier. And they each feed each other in a kind of a two-way street. Isn't that correct? That's absolutely correct.

Okay. Okay. So I heard you say a lot about code. Isn't that correct? That's absolutely correct. Okay. Okay. So I heard you say a lot about code, code, code, code. Code, code, code. Code, code, code, code, code. So that with all of what you do, which a lot of it, irrespective of if it's defense or not, is sensitive. Are you guys, are you also working

in like hardening cybersecurity? Absolutely. Because I would think that would be very important. Oh, yeah. It's extremely important. Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. I tend to like understatement. No, I appreciate that, Chuck. No, it's extremely important. It's built into every product that we build. It's just a part of our design process. It's built into every product that we build. It's just a part of our design process.

It's not something that we add on as an extra layer. We really, you know, start our, every development project starts with cyber in mind. So we can deliver that solution to our customers to ensure that they have uninterrupted services, you know, and we can deter when we need to deter. Wow. Okay. But can you protect yourself against an asteroid?

I bet you can't. I bet you can't. I look to you to help me to do that. What's your code for that, Sandy? I call Neil. Hey, Neil, tell me the prediction. When are we going to get hit? I got it.

So you want me to prevent the asteroid from even entering? Absolutely. I want to provide you the data from space so you can interpret it and provide us the answers of when that thing is going to hit and where. Or deflect it so that it never hits. Correct. Absolutely. I got a question.

Okay, in LEO, low Earth orbit, the satellites, you can watch them move across the sky. So if I'm using them for like internet or something that I would want or expect to be stable, what happens when that has gone past my horizon? There must be some system of handoffs from one satellite to another, and you must have a bajillion of them so that I always have a few over my head. Is that correct? Absolutely.

Or do you just get a message on your screen that says, hey, see you tomorrow at three. That's right. See you tomorrow at three. You have a great number to get the consistency of service. Absolutely. Okay. And a great number.

Can you quantify that? Is it like hundreds? Is it thousands? Thousands. Thousands of these a great number. Can you quantify that? Is it like hundreds? Thousands. Thousands of these smallsats performing, you know, different capabilities and sharing data in order to make sure that you have that coverage. Plus, you all took another one of my words. Now you're taking the word constellation because you call these satellites constellations. It's like, no, I'm not giving you that. You took it away. Too late. You can't get it back. I can't get that one back. So let me ask you this. Do they make interesting shapes? Are they Greek mythology? No, they're just a train of satellites. However, Sandy, in your defense,

in your defense, Raytheon doesn't need anyone in their defense, okay? They are their own defense system. Yeah, but that's kind of cool. Chuck Nice defends Raytheon. Okay, go, go, Chuck. What? He's the defense system for Raytheon. Oh, my God.

Anyway, no. So when you look at a constellation, no one sees the pictures that are drawn anyway. Right. That's true, that's true. Except astrophysicists. They're the only ones that could look right. I don't see a crab.

Okay. And we have a whole business that does nothing but launch these satellites into the orbits as well. So now, are you worried about how crowded it's getting? What is the future ecology of space launches?

Yeah, I mean, that's a topic that we often discuss with our customers. There's, you know, with the proliferation at space, the space debris, the space junk. We have to be very, you know, cognizant of what that could mean if we have collisions in space for especially our higher capability satellites. We have sensors on those satellites to make sure that we can steer clear of one another. That's important. And we, at Raytheon, we do develop those sensors to make sure that we have the situational awareness of where they are in space. Wait, just a point.

You're in orbit moving five miles per second. What do you mean steer clear? You can actually navigate these things while they're in orbit? We absolutely can. Now that. Oh, my gosh. So if you can navigate, that means they each have a reserve of fuel. They do.

That presumably would eventually run out. It does. They do, right. And then we are not able to move them anymore. But we're looking at technologies, you know, like solar or actually the ability to refuel satellites as well. They are on board with a very limited amount of fuel absolutely. So when will there be enough satellites in orbit? You know, our customers say N plus one.

Wow. Okay. That continues to infinity, by the way, for those who want to know how that works mathematically. Whatever the N is, give me one more. There's constant evolution of technology. And we have to do, just as you do on the ground, we do modernization.

We do replacement activities. So we want to make sure that we keep up with current threats so we can, again, deter and defend. So what do you do about collecting your outdated materials? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Because I don't use a computer from three years ago,

right? Because it doesn't have the capabilities I want. Yet you surely have satellites that are three years old. So how do you deal with the obsolescence given the fast-moving frontier of electronics? Right now, we don't have a cleanup crew for space. So they either burn in, burn into the atmosphere, or they stay up there. And again, that's what we refer to as space junk. Right. So Leo, you can burn up eventually, but Middle Earth,

the dragon keeps them, correct? Right. The dragon keeps them. Middle Earth orbit. Okay. So what is the split, would you say? I don't need to get all

into your ledgers, but what is your split between the private use of space and the government use of space? Because presumably, obviously you serve both communities. We are predominantly government. We are predominantly, you know, defense. Okay.

But, you know, one influences the other, obviously. So we utilize and we leverage commercial technologies to serve our defense customers. Ooh, so what about Space War? Because you're looking at all this information now that is just sitting above us in low Earth orbit. What is to say, like, okay, I'm somebody else. I'm like, I'll just capture a few of your satellites, your little CubeSats, and I'll get all that proprietary information for myself. Well, it's kind of what Space Force is for also,

I would think, right? Absolutely. Protecting assets, either government assets or business assets. What else would you want your military to do? Well, and that's why we build in, right? And that's why we build in cybersecurity measures from the beginning of every design.

So Sandy, what is your sort of academic profile that landed you where you are today? You know, I have a business degree with a minor in information systems. But, you know, as a 10-year-old girl, I had my Commodore 64 computer with my black and white television set, you know, cheating in the Hello World program when I was, you know, again, when I was really young. And so that technology kind kind of my interest in technology has grown throughout the years. But that was your technology baptism, right?

That was my baptism, right, exactly. Waiting every month for that coding magazine to come so I could translate the magazine set into my little Commodore 64. And I just followed the evolution of technology in space. And let me remind people that the 64 in Commodore 64 is 64K. Right. Right.

64K. And that was like, yeah, I'm badass. And that's all I wanted for Christmas. You know, so that eventually led me on my career path. Yep. Yep. Yep. Oh, man. And, you know, lately I've been hearing the word systems referred to. And I think because so many different bits and pieces have to cooperate in technology, there's a whole new kind of engineer that I think, at least when I was a kid, there wasn't much discussion about, but now it's everywhere. Just comment on systems engineering and what that

means for your job and just for the role of the company. Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's everywhere. Just comment on systems engineering and what that means in your job and just for the role of the company. Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's a broader field. I mean, you have to understand how the different parts and pieces fit together to form the whole. You know, it's desirable to have a background

in some, you know, coding so you understand how the program and hits the bus and how that is all, you know, put together again to develop a product. And it's not just, you know, you can't be stovepipe in your disciplines anymore. You really have to have that broader view

of hardware, software, and again, the systems to build the system of systems as well. Gotcha. I mean, isn't that just what an iPhone is, right? An iPhone has GPS, it has touchscreen, it has computers, it's got music, it's got, so it's a system of systems, really.

It's a system of systems. And maybe we, so I'm just impressed by that because it used to be, I have this one thing that does this one thing, right? Right. And then I hook it to another thing that does another thing, and then they do the thing together. Well, that's the beginnings of it. Right. Right.

That's very, very. And at Raytheon Intelligence in Space, we actually are building a framework very similar to an iPhone to take data from space and different space vehicles and be able to put applications on a layer and be able to manipulate data and take the data from space that we are receiving and deliver weather, to deliver missile warning, missile defense, deliver GPS coordinates. The real question is, how good is the camera? How good is the camera? How good is the camera? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Actually, in our environment, no cameras are allowed. Okay, wow. So here's something. You guys are known pretty much for, you know, drones, and that's everybody's, like Raytheon, the first thing that pops into your head, you know, pilotless vehicles, I mean, aircraft. What do you do in all this stuff that would touch people's lives that they don't even know?

That's a good question. Yeah. Every morning when you pick up your cell phone and you look at the weather, we have a role in that. When you turn on your map application and want to go to the grocery store and want to avoid traffic, we have a part in that navigation and timing. And we're making that blue dot on your screen more accurate because we are modernizing the GPS ground stations. All right.

Wow. Okay. Listen, that's very, you're very integral to a lot of people's daily lives then. Right, right, right. So wake up anymore and say. In ways, again, in ways that people don't even imagine. Yeah, they're not thinking about.

Raising out intelligence in space, kind of showing up. Well, Sandy, it's been a delight to have you and to get such a deep representation in such an important company in this world that's taking us into the future and keeping us safe while we do so. So thanks for being a guest on StarTalk. Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. All right, Chuck, we're not done here. Okay. We've got Carrie Cahoy coming up who's going to tell us more about what it is to make these satellites and what they do and why and what the future of it will be when StarTalk continues. From the James Webb Space Telescope to next-generation GPS ground control to global climate monitoring,

Raytheon Intelligence in Space is engineering solutions that make our lives on Earth better, smarter, safer, and more connected. Every day space is changing, and every day, Raytheon Intelligence and Space teams push the edges of discovery to help drive that change for customers around the world from the ground up. If you're enjoying this episode and want to learn more about how Raytheon Intelligence and Space is advancing space solutions, make sure to head over to www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com. We're back. StarTalk, all about satellites. Who's launching them?

Who's designing them? What are they doing? How many are there? Do we need more? Do we need less? All of this is what this show is about. And for the next two segments, we're going to have someone where that is her life, Professor Keri Kahoy. Keri, welcome to StarTalk. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Excellent, excellent. So you're Associate Professor of Aeronautics and Astronautics at MIT. For those who are not academic fluent, it's the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And I also have more on your resume here, Co-Director of MIT's Small Satellite Center. Okay. And you're a leader at MIT's STAR Lab. That's one of those fancy acronyms, Space Telecommunications, Astronomy, and Radiation Laboratory, STAR Lab. And you used to be a NASA research scientist. So you are the right person for these two segments for us to get into what's going on. So let me ask you this before we get into it. When are you going to do something with your life? You know? I have these questions myself. Okay.

So, first, tell us the difference between aeronautics and astronautics. So, one is about flying planes, and the other is about flying spacecraft. So, air and space is the major difference. But if you're really into satellites, what do you care about aeronautics? How low do you want to fly? Oh! Mic drop.

Look at that. Somebody doing a rap battle right now. Wow, that's great, though. And where do you want to land? And what do you have to go through for entry, descent, and landing? They're connected. You have to go through one to get to the other. Okay, so tell me about the STAR Lab, because the R stands for radiation in there, too.

It does. People are spooked by the word radiation. But space, telecommunications, astronomy, and radiation. So what does the STAR Lab do? So we test new technologies in space using small platforms like CubeSats or nanosatellites. And we also support projects for government and industry partners to have larger missions, like large space telescopes. We'll do some of the analyses that they need to make their missions happen or answer questions that they're having a hard time with or with like a new approach to or a problem they need to make their missions happen or answer questions that they're having a hard time with or would like a new approach to or a problem they need to solve.

So that acronym STAR, it's a catch basin for everybody who needs you because you do all those different things. Yeah, there are some things that we specialize in a little bit more than others, but there's a lot of different disciplines that you need to be successful in space. And what about, you know what's missing here? And maybe you can repurpose the T in star. How about thermodynamics? It is a big challenge. Yeah. Could you go from room temperature on Earth's surface to space cold, and then like you're facing the sun and then you're hot again. I mean, your stuff has to work in a wide variety of temperatures. Do you have those testing centers as well?

Those testing platforms? Yeah, yeah. One of the key tests for a satellite is to make sure that the heaters turn on when they're supposed to. So you have these chambers where you try to get the temperatures low enough using liquid nitrogen or if you have to get really cold, liquid helium or something like that to get those temperatures cold and trigger your sensors to turn on heaters to keep your satellite alive. Mostly the batteries need to stay happy.

Batteries hate being cold. Wow. Right. Yeah. While they're operating, they hate to be cold. Because when I grew up, you kept batteries in the refrigerator. In the refrigerator. Remember that.

To preserve them. You know what I learned? I was up in Alaska. My wife was raised in Alaska. And there's friends and relatives still up there. We were using some flashlight and the batteries went dead. And one of these, like, bear wrestling mountain, you know. Persons.

Persons. I got this. And he takes the batteries out and he rubs them in his hands, rolling them back and forth. Does this for about 90 seconds. We put the batteries back in the flashlight. It worked again. It was like magic. It was like...

What Neil didn't know is he was an alien. Used an EMT to recharge them. Exactly. Yes, exactly. No, wait. He didn't tell me that. So why are satellites small? Because I remember in the day, in my day, satellites were at least as big as a person, possibly the size of a car. What's the rush to make them all little?

Well, I like satellites of any size. And I started off, like you're saying, satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. And they have little ladders that we crawl up to like work on the panels in there. So some satellites have staircases and ladders. But making them small helps because the idea is you can get more of them on orbit. And that helps you. In a single launch in a single well you know i have mixed feelings about that because if you go on a single launch you're stuck in a single orbit plane and then you have this like string of satellites and it doesn't get all

the orbit planes you want so you i hate it when that i hate it when that happens the chuck you have been stuck in the same orbital plane let me tell you, if I had a dime for every moment of sleep I've lost over single-lawn sat cubes, I would be, I'd actually be very well refreshed. So what's going on? Because we've all seen these YouTube videos of the deployed satellites from a single mission, and they're all just lined up there like a train.

Yeah. One following another. And so you value different orbital trajectories. I do. I like different orbit planes because then I don't have to wait for the same guys to sweep around the earth and pre-sus around. Then I have multiple of them that can cover different places at the same time or close to the same time. And I don't have to wait

for them to swing around. Did you ever consider using something, you know, Bill Nye some time ago, Neil, was on the show and did the thing

about the light sail because he was, along with his organization, was launching a light sail. Oh yeah, that was the Planetary Society. Thank you, the Planetary Society. This would be using light pressure,

deploy a huge sail, a highly reflective sail, using the pressure from light to alter your orbit to something new. So now I guess you could also use fuel, but light sails, you get to do that for free. So what kind of, what kind of, what stuff goes on in your labs along those lines? So we generally don't work too hard at maneuvering them. Although we do have a

small satellite that's on space station right now that's about to be deployed that's going to test a electrospray propulsion system on a CubeSat. But for the most part, those systems are pretty intricate, but very necessary. And the smaller they are, especially some of the electrospace systems, they can't really move you very far sometimes. Or if they can, it takes a long time. So that's kind of the trade either you're small and you don't go very far. It might take a long time for you to change your orbit parameters or you need these big satellites, which most people think of satellites and they don't realize what's in the middle. But it's kind of like a Boston cream filled donut where the center is just a fuel tank. fuel tank. Most satellites have this giant spherical fuel tank in the middle of the big ones because they need to maneuver

and then they just slap some boards around the outside with electronics on them. I never thought about that. Yeah, so. So it's crunchy on the outside and soft on the inside. Sloshy on the inside.

Sloshy on the inside. And what kind of fuel is it? Is it like hydrazine? Yeah, there's monopropellants and hydrazine that they use. What's hydrazine, please? Did we have to explain it to you, Chuck? Come on. Yes, you do.

Two space professionals sitting here. So, yeah, what kind of propulsion are you using? What is that? What do you you using? What is that? What do you got there? What is that? It's like, Chuck, stay with it, okay? Is that the warp core there?

Is that what you're using? Slow down for you. Hell yeah. What's hydrazine though? It's a compound that's very reactive and volatile and reacts to heat.

So you basically combust it and then you use the heat and pressure generated by it to create a force to move you. And it's highly reliable. I mean, they used it throughout Apollo. And it doesn't require weird ignition

to make it... But they do make you keep it in a bunker or something like that. Yeah, it's pretty nasty stuff. Oh, okay. It is nasty stuff if it does what you don't want it to do. I got you. But it's otherwise highly reliable.

So do you focus on, so far we've only talked about the hardware, do you focus on any broader scientific, agricultural, environmental goals as you think about your satellites? Yeah, so we do focus on enabling people to communicate, so we do optical technology for laser communication

to help people talk to each other from anywhere securely and safely. Using optical lasers? Yeah, but if there's a cloud in the way, then... That is the problem. What good is that? Yeah, that's why... Whoa, whoa.

Okay. Yeah. That's why you need the relay. You're not doing yourself a very good service here, Carrie. You're just like, guys, I'd love to talk to you, but it's a little cloudy out. Yeah. Just to be clear, because radio waves move through clouds. Radios do.

Where visible light does not. They still get attenuated, and the shorter the wavelengths get, because radio waves move through clouds. Radios do. Well, they still get attenuated. And the shorter the wavelengths get, the worse the clouds treat them. Right. No, I got to tell Chuck why. Wait, Chuck, the shorter the wavelengths get, you get into microwaves. And clouds are made of what? Water droplets. Water droplets, okay, water vapor.

So water and microwaves have a very long history together. Yeah, and that's how you get microwave ovens. So the fact that you have that interaction enables microwave ovens to begin with. So exactly. So you need a wavelength that passes over the water droplets as though the water droplets aren't there. Okay, so go on.

Yeah, so it needs to be longer than that. But we are working on making these terminals very small. And so you can put a lot of them up and relay the lasers around the weather systems and also making ground stations that are small and portable so you can have a bunch of them on the ground so that you can receive the data that's been sent around the weather.

Okay, so basically it's an interconnected network but you break it up all over the place that's cool wait a minute so why can't it still go to a centralized network and then you get it by cell phone carrier or something you could definitely treat it that way too well you would make me carry a whole big radio receiver dish with me where I go

don't do that well you know some people have security needs and don't want anybody else to look at their data. Now it comes out. I know. I see what you're saying.

And it's not only the guys you think about. Some of it is these high-frequency traders and they don't want you to know about their data either. Right. Well, that makes sense, right?

Yeah. So, Kerry, are you thinking about the cost of these things? So a number I've always heard for NASA was $10,000 a pound to put something in low Earth orbit. Update me on that number for what it is you do. So CubeSats right now,

if I were going to try to put a 10-pound CubeSat into orbit, would be about $200,000. So it's within a factor of a couple, I think, of where you are. As we say in my world, it's within a factor of pi. Yeah. How do we do it? Volume. Right. So right now it's $20,000 a pound, what you're saying, if I did the math correct. Yes, which is 10,000 a kilogram-ish, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's the same ballpark. Yeah. All right, so that hasn't changed much over the years. But is that because of gas prices and inflation? Is that what's going on here? Gas prices, inflation, just screwing up everything. The big launch vehicle costs are coming down, though. It used to be well over $100 million,

sometimes closer to $150, $200 million to launch a rocket. And with the reusability that companies like SpaceX are really making possible now, that cost is coming down significantly. If you flew to Europe in a 747 and then they shoved it off the cliff and then brought out a new one every time, that flight would be

really costly to you. It would add up. So yeah, because everybody's on payroll, right? So if I can launch five times instead of once, the total salary that everyone earned is the same, but I now got five satellites out of it instead of one. So all these things scale in ways that drop the price. Yeah, yeah. And that's a really important point too. A lot of people don't realize that the cost of sending things to space is mostly the people time to put it together and run it. So it's a really good point. Oh, interesting.

Right, right, right. And let me just say, if you have disposable 747s, you are a baller, okay? Okay. And you take up a lot of room when you fly. All right, we got to take a quick break. When we come back, Kerry, rumor has it that you have some interest and care for exoplanets.

And I want to get further into that when we return. Star Talk, Segment 3, all about satellites. We're back. StarTalk, segment three, all about satellites. And I've got Kerry Cahoy here, who's on the faculty at MIT, and she's one of their systems engineers studying. Should I call you a systems engineer or satellite engineer? That's what you're called. A little of both. Right?

A little of both. Or a lot of both, probably, actually. So I'm told that, little Bertie told me that you also have an interest in the detection of exoplanets. And we know that JWST is going to help blow that open,

but not so much detecting them as much as observing them once we know they're there. So how do you plug into that turning wheel right now? Yeah, so JWST has some great tools for characterizing exoplanets on board, mostly by looking at exoplanets and their transits and different things like that in different colors

and learning from the difference in the colors that are observed a little bit more about the properties of the atmosphere. I'm interested in looking at star systems and seeing if there are planets around them and how many there are and also characterizing their atmospheres by looking at the colors and their relative strengths. And the technology you need to do that very effectively for Earth-like planets means that you have to have something on board the satellite that can block out the starlight in the middle so you can kind of see around it where you think the habitable planets would be. So this is the firefly and the searchlight problem.

There is that analogy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you're trying to detect the firefly and you're looking at one of these Hollywood searchlights, it's going to be really hard, if not impossible, unless you figure out a way to blot out the searchlight. And so this is also one of your big challenges. Right, and I also can't assume that the firefly glows by itself. Okay. It's even harder.

Wow. So I need to see the light that's bouncing off the firefly when it's not blinking to tell me more about it. So you're doing this in addition to your satellite work. See, I'm going to repeat Chuck's earlier comment. You know, really, this is all you've done in your life? Yeah. Big slacker.

Here's what I'm saying. Stop making us all look so bad, Chuck. It takes so many different types of people to make anything happen. And I'm glad to be in a place where there is such a variety of people with so many different talents to throw at these things because we need them all. MIT is geek central. So you're in arm's reach of anybody who knows anything that you need to know to make stuff happen. Yeah.

I think of MIT as like the Hogwarts of technology. I want some of those moving staircase's then. Oh, yeah. Animated paintings. Yes, yes. That's totally what you want. So if you could take everything that you know, what is the one advancement that you would bring to satellite technology

that would change everything? I have to only take one. I want two things. All right. I want the satellite equivalent of space Wi-Fi. Oh, snap. Nice. So that's one thing I want.

And then I want the satellite equivalent of gas stations. Okay. Filling stations in orbit. On orbit. So those are the two things I want. Okay. We need that for space travel in general. Otherwise, you know, we're stuck with the rocket equation.

We did a whole, Chuck, I think we did an explainer on the rocket equation. We did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even Artemis, you know, is 35 stories tall, and it's basically all fuel. All fuel. Yeah, basically. You need the fuel to burn to carry the fuel that you haven't burned yet

that you're going to burn to carry the fuel you haven't burned yet. So, right, if you have filling stations, that's a game changer. Yep. But, yeah, but, Kerry, you have to refill the filling stations. Yes. Yes, you do have to refill the filling stations somehow as well. This has become a bigger problem than I thought, even when you just... This just keeps getting worse. We're going to have to look at these asteroids and, you know, Lagrange points and try to figure out how to put stations on them

and get to and from these things with enough fuel and, you know, very efficient systems. And or make sense, make ways to use solar energy if possible for propulsion. Yeah, I was going to say, or come up with a different fuel, right? Yep. Well, it's still a fuel. I mean, you need a whole new thing. That's what I mean. But when I say different fuel.

Source of energy. I mean, source of energy. Thank you. I said, yeah, I was very inarticulate. Source of energy. We don't mean ethanol versus gasoline you know, gasoline versus whatever. We're talking warp drives, Captain. That's what I really want to do there.

So we've mentioned this before, which I think many people don't know. Engineering has two terminal degrees. One of them is the undergraduate degree. Plenty of working people with a terminal undergraduate degree and a master's. You're back in a university as an engineer. Does that mean you got a PhD? It does.

It does. I did get a PhD. Okay. I didn't know that I was going to do that, honestly, until probably my senior year of undergrad. Wow. Just won't stop with the humble breath. No, it's true.

Just can't let it go, can we, Carrie? I have no idea. Yeah, just won't stop with the humble breath. Just can't let it go, can we, Carrie? Yeah, I got a PhD. I didn't even know I was going to do it. I woke up one day and it was... By the way, I don't even know how this happened.

I tripped going up the stairs and I was, well, there you have it, a Nobel Prize. How'd that happen? How'd that even happen? So I think, no, but here's the reason why there's so few engineers with a PhD is because if you get a PhD and you work in a university, you get paid way less than you'd otherwise get paid in industry. It's a big problem.

It's a big, it's an issue. This is an issue. It's a big problem. It's an issue. This is an issue. It's a big problem. Freedom, salary, freedom, salary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want to work for the man, as they say, or do you want to be your own boss? And as an academic, I mean, I cherish the academic life

because I can say what I want and do what I want and go where I want. But you need both, right? Because somebody's got to get the job done at the end of the day on budget, on time for a customer. And the free thinkers are on another part of this. And without the free thinkers, there wouldn't be anything for the businesses to jump on. I mean, we need you guys. You know, I agree, though, that industry is very important.

And you need people with those types of infrastructures and resources to make it happen. With Raytheon, for example, they just recently, not too long ago, maybe a couple of years ago, bought a small satellite company

called Blue Canyon that I built payloads and integrated payloads on and operated them on orbit. So you need, sometimes you want to take your university project and your research and put it on something that someone's already built

and send it up. And who's got pockets deep enough to do interesting things with it. For sure. All right, Guy, we got to end it here. Kerry's been a delight to chat with you. And it's good to know that you exist in this world thinking about these problems down on Earth

that end up in space. And maybe if you invent some new kind of satellite, tell us first and we'll get you. I will. I'm so grateful that you guys are here to help communicate these concepts and do such a good job of making it fun. So appreciate it very much. Oh, okay. Look, I think the universe is a hilarious place.

That's why. Really it is. All right. We're going to end it there. Chuck, always think the universe is a hilarious place. That's why. Really it is. All right. We're going to end it there. Chuck, always good to have you. Oh, and Carrie, do we find you on social media? Do you have a place there? I do have a Twitter, MIT Star Lab.

Okay. And not a personal Twitter so much, but my lab keeps me busy. Yeah, good. So we can keep track of your lab there. Yeah, very good. Very good. And Chuck, you're still a Chuck Nice comic. Thank you, sir.

We'll find you on your social media handles. All right. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson. You've been listening to, possibly even watching, StarTalk. As always, keep looking up.