StarTalk Radio - Season 7 Time Capsule (Part 2)

Episode Date: January 13, 2017

Join host Neil Tyson for Season 7’s final episode as he revisits our fan’s favorite Cosmic Queries shows. Along with Chuck Nice, Eugene Mirman, Iliza Shlesinger, and guests, Neil answers questions about aliens, the multiverse, black holes, war, and more. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your host and your personal astrophysicist. I'm also the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History. What you're about to hear is the final episode of season seven. Yes, there have been seven seasons of StarTalk. It's part two of our special time capsule show, and we do this every season. What we do is we send out a survey to all our fans, this every season. What we do is we send out a survey to all our fans and we ask you to vote for your favorite episodes, co-hosts, guests. From those data, we choose what episodes

to splice and glue and staple together and we end up with a kind of potpourri of Star Talk's best moments. I think of it as a comedic-scientific melange. On this, part two of the time capsule, we focus only on our cosmic query episodes. Cosmic queries are what I like to think of as StarTalk after hours. It's a chance for me and my comedic co-host to field and explore, have fun with, but especially just to grapple with the questions posed to us by our very own listeners. And every now and then, we bring in a science guest to help us out. Such was the case with your number one favorite episode, according to your votes, The Multiverse. Here, co-host Chuck Nice and I brought in theoretical physicist Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University

to help us untangle some of your questions about multiverse theory. Matt Eli from Facebook and also from San Antonio, Texas, a little more, he wants to know this, a little more existential. Why should we take the multiverse theory seriously in the first place? Might there be extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim? Whoa. He is not the least bit skeptical. Good. I like this question.

Go ahead. You gotta admit, Paul, to assert multiple universes is extraordinary. And if you're not on the tail, and you're a theorist, last I checked, so you're not on the tail, and you're a theorist, last I checked, so you're not even, well, of course, good theorists think of how to test hypotheses. Have you?

How's that for a setup? Good theorists do this. Do you? Well, I think I've already sort of laid out my cards and said that I think the multiverse is a sign of breakdown of this inflationary idea. It's a failure. It's a failure mode of the theory. Something we didn't expect.

It wasn't designed to produce a multiverse. It's something we discovered after the fact. And the problem is that because it produces an infinite number of patches of every possible variety, if you ask what the theory predicts, the answer is nothing or everything, anything. So it's a little bits the answer is nothing or everything, anything

so it's a little bit analogous. If it explains everything then in fact it explains nothing. Yes that's what, so in my view that makes it no longer a scientifically interesting theory, so it's not testable even if it's true, it's just not interesting it's not interesting, because anything you'd measure

you could say, oh we live in that patch of the universe and then you measure something else tomorrow and it doesn't fit that, we live in that patch of the universe, and then you measure something else tomorrow, and it doesn't fit that patch. You'd say, oh, it must be in that patch. We live in the patch where both of those are the fact. Yeah, that's right. That makes sense. I mean, yeah. And according to the multiverse idea, if it's physically possible, and obviously our physical world is one of the possibilities, then it must exist somewhere in the multiverse.

Unless we're a simulation. Oh, no. But even that would be part of the whole thing. Oh, there's the... You can't get away from this. Oh, man. Drats. Once you have a bad idea, you can't get away from it. That's funny. Drats.

All right. So there you have it. Okay. Hey, Matt. Nice question. So you agree that it doesn't really set the standard yet for a testable theory? I think by construction it does not. And if you read what the proponents of the multiverse say, that's exactly what they'll tell you.

What about the quantum foam bursting forth multiple whole other universes from the very early universe? And these would be universes that you would be able to see in a higher dimension, but they don't interact and they're perfectly... So they're separate fabrics. Separate fabrics, yeah. I don't know what to make of that.

That's another untestable idea in principle. So it's another version of a... Well, so there are two possibilities. One possibility is that those different fabric regions have completely different properties, again, like the multiverse, and it's just random chances. Like a patchwork multiverse. Like a patchwork multiverse in which, again,

everything that could happen will happen, in which case it has no scientific predictive value. Or it could be that you have a theory which says, actually, the same thing will happen each time, every time you produce one of these fabrics, so that if I suddenly transport it to the other one, imagine doing that, it would look familiar to me.

That's a different story. That's a predictive theory. That is, right. But the problem is you can't get there, is what you're saying. Yeah, and so it doesn't have a meaningful scientific value. Gotcha. Paul, isn't it true, for reasons that I never learned because I never took advanced field theory in graduate school, but my wife did, and okay, she has a PhD in mathematical physics.

I know, I know your wife, and she's smarter than you. That's right. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. But from what I've been told, gravity is not contained in the space-time in which it is formed, in which you have it.

So in other words, the effect of gravity can leak out of whatever is the membrane that is contained and be felt by other universes outside of that. of whatever is the membrane that is contained and be felt by other universes outside of that? Unlike electromagnetic radiation, which is trapped within the space-time, gravity is not. I've heard that. So I think you're referring to theories like in string theory you have extra dimensions

and where we might live in a membrane-like surface in which we think we're living in a world of three space dimensions. There's actually extra dimensions, which we, our particles, can't move there. Our light can't move there, so electromagnetic radiation can't move there. But gravity would be felt even along that extra dimension. So that, for example, if there were another similar membrane parallel to us, now we are thinking about this idea of parallel universes.

This is the parallel. Yeah, and something were happening over there, let's say a matter lumped together to form a star or a black hole or something like that, that would be felt, its gravitational effect. So why isn't that dark matter? It could be. Dark matter, our universe, would be ordinary matter in a parallel universe that's leaking into ours, and we're mysteriously inventing stuff to account for it,

when in fact it's just ordinary matter. I think that's a conceivable idea that it could be matter on the other side, on another membrane that's a small distance away. It couldn't be like our matter, because if it were, it would also, when it gravitationally clumped, it would produce radiation and that radiation would affect us as well

in a way that we know there aren't those sources of radiation there. And the dark matter, one of the things about dark matter compared to ordinary matter is ordinary matter collapses to form stars. It can stick together. It can stick together. It can stick together and sits in a halo of very diffuse dark matter.

If this dark matter were like us but on the other side, it would also collapse and it wouldn't form the halo which we know of dark matter that we observe. Typically, fan queries are related to a specific topic. But you all often submit such a range of intriguing and off-the-wall questions that the only appropriate category is, well, no category at all. Random. So on this random edition of Cosmic Queries, comedian Chuck Nice helps me scrape the bottom of the Cosmic Queries barrel, where all the misfit questions wait to be answered. Check it out.

Could there be life that exists that could not be classified as either plant nor animal, but still life? There's a famous science fiction story, and forgive me if I forgot who wrote it, because I don't come in here with notes in anticipation of questions. Well, no, you don't know these questions, so how could you? Right, right. So there's a science fiction story where the aliens came upon Earth and saw that there's muscle tissue. Right. And they go back to their home planet and says, they're made of meat. Because the aliens, they're made of some spirit energy.

Right. Right? And we're made of some spirit energy. Right. Right? And we're made of meat. Right. And another thing that we take for granted, but I can imagine an alien life form that would just freak out. Mm-hmm. Other than salt, other than salt, animals have to kill to consume food.

Okay. Other than the consumption of salt. Everything else you eat was once alive. Sorry, unless you live off of milk and honey, those themselves were not once alive. That's still an animal byproduct. That's an animal byproduct. You have to kill something.

And even the vegetarians are slaughtering carrots. That's right. All right? And slicing them, dicing them up, and shredding them. Yes. So the fact that we have to kill other life forms on our own planet for our own sustenance could easily be seen as one of the most barbaric things to another civilization where they all absorb energy from their host star.

Right. Yes. There you have it. Because they're absorbing and not consuming. And they're ingesting. They're not ingesting. They're an unlimited source of energy from their sun, just like planets, but plants on Earth. Right.

They don't have to eat anything. There's some that do, of course, but most don't. The Venus flytrap is carnivorous. And what's that other one that eats flies that smells like? A picture plant. So that one, okay, so they're carnivorous. But all the rest are doing just fine with sunlight. Yeah.

And that's an awesome way to live, I think. If I were to evolve the human into another form, I'd evolve us with solar panels on our skin. Nice. Our skin would be one big solar panel. And that way, getting sunburned, you just recharge your energetics. Yes.

I believe they call that Africans. I'm just saying. Last I heard, that's why they're black I say they I just said that's why they're black that's so crazy alright Megan Morrissey says hi

I'm showing for the first time an episode of Cosmos in my high school earth sciences class give it up for the teachers of the world. There you go. One of my students just asked me if a ship that is designed like a ship of imagination would actually be able to fly into space,

would that be possible? Love your show and thank you. I'm not authorized to say whether I actually own one of these. No, the ship of the imagination on purpose has mobility through space and time. And that mobility is empowered by my thoughts. Whoa. So there are no controls.

There is no, plus we had many discussion with Andrewian who specified in the script that the ship would be impossibly minimalist. Right. So I would not be wearing a badge, which would imply that I'm captain and you're not. Right. Because you should be able to fly this as well. That's right. So the ship, no, it exists completely in my imagination

as your tour guide. So no, there is no attempt to try to make it real. There you go. As there have been with the Starship Enterprise and other sort of sci-fi creations. So anyway, so yeah no attempt to try to make it real. There you go. As there have been with the Starship Enterprise and other sort of sci-fi creations. So anyway, so yeah, it's not real or it can't even be imagined to be real. Right. Because it exists in my mind.

Nice. As your private tour guide. There you go. There you go. You know what time it is? Uh-oh. It is. I'm so bad at hitting this bell.

Let me tell you. Damn. There we go. Lightning round. Lightning round. Okay. Oh my God, we got hitting this bell. Damn. There we go. Lightning round. Lightning round. Okay. Oh, my God. We got a lightning round.

Okay. So I'm answering in sound bites because you still have so many I didn't get to. That's right. Ready, go. Okay. Here we go. Jehovany Barrera wants to know, as the sun expands, it gets closer to the earth. What will happen to the earth besides getting really hot?

What will happen to the Earth besides getting really hot? Oh, so the story here is that it's getting hot. Okay, that's the story. All right, so the gravity will be the same. It will still orbit the sun in the same amount of time, but as it gets hot, the oceans will come to a rolling boil and evaporate into the atmosphere. The atmosphere will itself evaporate into space as we become engulfed by the expanding sun and we become a vaporized ember orbiting deep within Earth's surface. Boom.

Have a nice day. From Andrew Lounsbury who says, this is not relevant to science, but where did Neil get his celestial vest? Oh, actually I own about six vests. Okay. And they're for different stages of how wide my belly is at different times. But the one I'm most seen in, it was the last vest sold at the gift shop of the Hanson Planetarium in Utah,

in Salt Lake City, Utah, before that closed and reopened in another identity. And in fact, they had no more left, and I bought it off the back of the salesperson. And I've yet to see anyone else wearing this vest ever again. Dad. So, yeah, that's the one. That person is probably so pissed off right now. Took it off their back.

But they agreed. I didn't steal it off their back. Man, give me the best. That person is probably so pissed off right now. Took it off their back. But they agreed. I didn't steal it off their back. Man, give me the best. Know who I am? I'm NDT, bitch. No, I'm sorry. Next up, comedic co-host Eugene Merman throws me your cosmic queries

about new mysteries in the universe. Denard on Google Plus asks, with slowing investments in space-based science across the board in multiple countries, what effect does this have on limiting human discoveries of our place in the universe? Yeah, that's a great

question. And if you're going to cut back on science, which is the current, which constitute the current roads of discovery, then just move back into the cave. Yeah. What are you doing? Now, you can vote for that kind of country, but that's not the kind of country I grew up in.

Right. We had investments in science and technology. You did not need special programs to convince kids that they should be interested in science. Well, doesn't. Built into the fabric of the media cycles. Well, NASA, for every dollar put into NASA, it returns something like $7 or $8. Yeah, I hardly ever cite that calculation

because there's a lot of... Or is it somewhat accurate? Yeah, it can be accurate, but it's a matter of what you value that goes into the equation that gets that number. So that's the kind of same calculation you do when you say, well, let's put an opera in town. Well, how are we going to support the opera?

Well, we don't know, but if you put an opera there, then these stores will open up around the entrance to that opera. Right. And so it's a seeding effect that many people talk about. But it's hard to actually say. It's hard to anchor that in a way that if five different people did the same analysis, would they get the same answer? And the answer is no.

And that also isn't necessarily the scientific discovery is partially its own end, not the fact that. Correct. Correct. Even though some people want you to do it for some purpose, it's really for its own end. And later on you find out how it really applies. Yeah.

All right. Mark Miller, Patreon, he asks, with the discovery of a black hole expelling some of the matter it had consumed, what forces may be responsible for this unusual behavior? Oh, it's not unusual because it's not coming from within the event horizon.

Once you cross over the event horizon, just kiss your ass goodbye. So what's actually happening is all this matter is spiraling towards the black hole center. and it can't all get there all at once and it forms this disc on which all this material accretes and the disc feeds the black hole on the very inner edge of it but until you until it gets to that point you still have this assembly of matter. And as it spirals down, it gets hotter and hotter and hotter,

and it begins to radiate. It radiates so ferociously, it punches out above and below the disk itself. And then you get these jets, these long spewed forth signatures of moving matter. And so, yes, this happens because all this matter is trying to get down into the same place at the same time, and it's going to fail in doing so. And once you heat up a gas, it's got to radiate somewhere, and it'll do it. It'll do it. Yeah.

Oh, it will. That's the promise I make to you. It'll do it. Yeah. Oh, it will. That's the promise I make to you. So, yeah. So most of the exotic galactic center phenomenon we've seen with powerful jets emanating from above and below a galaxy and very intense in all bands of light, radio waves, microwaves, ultraviolet, x-rays. So we have established over the decades that the thing that's causing

all that violence in the galaxies are black holes with matter trying to get in there too fast, creating these explosive accretion disks. That's how it comes out of a black hole. Welcome back to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. And right now we're in the middle of our final episode of the season. This is a special time capsule edition, which means we're reaching back into the archives of Season 7 and extracting some of your best love moments and guests, according to your votes

your number one favorite comedic co-host this season chuck nice returns to ask me your questions about the space race let's take a listen abhijit manay from facebook wants to know this the space race was in a way an extension of the Cold War arms race, but also the resolve of President John F. Kennedy, who pledged that we'd get there in 10 years. Do you know anyone today in the political sphere who could do the same? What kind of politician would be ideal in this regard? We go to the moon because we choose to.

It's that and the other thing we do because, never mind, forget it. Chuck, that was your worst impression ever. It really is. Normally, you're good. I know, but you know what? I'm not even doing Kennedy. I'm actually doing Mayor Quimby

from The Simpsons, you know? Vote Quimby. I mean, you imitate a TIE fighter from Star Wars. Right. I thought Kennedy would be easy after that. Yes. So there's an assumption built into that question that the political will and charisma, perhaps, of Kennedy

was a significant force operating in how and why we got to the moon. And this is commonly thought, but I'm contrarian in that regard. Well, good. Right? No doubt Kennedy had charisma. No doubt he had a sort of way with rallying people behind an idea. No doubt about that. But I submit that if we were not at war,

all of that would have just been empty rhetoric and nobody would have signed the check. Congress, because Congress is not as swayed by speeches as the public is. Absolutely. And so it's Congress who writes the check. That's right. At the end of the day. So consider 1989, the 20 of the day. So, consider 1989,

July 20th, the 20th anniversary of the moon landing. Who was the then sitting president? I don't know. Herbert Walker. George Herbert Walker Bush. He goes to the steps of the Air and Space Museum, delivers a speech

not fundamentally different from Kennedy's speech. We're Americans. We're explorers. Columbus set sail. This is our time. We will put men on Mars and have a space station. We'll build a space station

and we will... He was trying to give a Kennedy speech. Right. Okay? Fell flat on his face. Now, why? People said, well, because he's not Kennedy. I beg to differ. Right. Okay? Fell flat on his face. Now, why? People said, well, because he's not Kennedy. I beg to differ. Okay. Not that he isn't

not Kennedy. Right. That sentence make sense? That's correct. Because he isn't not Kennedy. No, he, well, he isn't Kennedy. It didn't work not because he isn't Kennedy. Right. I claim it didn't work because, do you remember what happened in 1989?

I don't know. Peace broke out. Wow. Peace broke out in Europe. That's a terrible thing. That is the collapse of the Soviet Empire. That's right. That is the tear down the wall.

The wall came down in 1989. All of a sudden, our motivation for our military might, the very thing that drove who and what we were as the carriers of freedom in the American way in the face of evil communists, it all evaporated that year. And he's trying to give a speech to get people to go to Mars in the absence of a mortal enemy. Right. So we would have either needed Martians. That'd be the best. That would have been the best. The best. Right.

We either needed Martians. Evil Martians. Evil Martians. Not E.T. Exactly. Wouldn't it be cool if E.T. came out, guns drawn? That would be awesome. And he shot Elliot or whatever the hell that was. That's the way it ends. You know what I mean if E.T. came out, guns drawn? That would be awesome. And he shot Elliot or whatever the hell that was. That's the way it ends. You know what I mean? E.T. go home.

But first. We must test our ray guns on you. Right, exactly. So, yeah. So, really, the competition. No competition. No. It's not only competition because you can do that, yes, and still succeed,

but the greatest competition our species knows is the threat of death from someone who might out-compete you in a way that would kill you. So I claim that the biggest reason that failed was not because Bush lacked the charisma of Kennedy. What happened is he lacked the Cold War. Right.

And by the way, he proposed, you know what it was? You know what it was? He said, this will be a 25-year, I forgot the exact time interval, 25-year plan, and it would be a 25, 30-year plan, and it'll cost a trillion dollars. Whoa. Okay, so people freaked. Right, and that was the end of that right there. Okay, or half a trillion dollars. cost a trillion dollars. Whoa. Okay. So people freaked. Right. And that was the end of that right there. Okay. Or half a trillion dollars, half a trillion, half a trillion

dollars. Okay. Oh, that's better. No, listen, half a trillion. I'm like, all right, okay, we can work with that. But here's the thing. If you took NASA's budget at the time, which is between 15 and $20 billion in today's annual budget. And then you multiply that over 30 years, you get half a trillion dollars. So we already are allocating half a trillion dollars to NASA over that same amount of time. So to say that's DOA because it's too much money, that's a false argument.

You might have to retool NASA with its budget, but it was a false argument to think it's too much money. That's all. So I'm unconvinced by people saying that George Herbert Walker Bush was absent the charisma of Kennedy. So I don't think it has anything to do with politicians. It has to do with whether we think we're going to die. Okay, and there you have it. By the way, just to let you know, you are going to die. Okay, and there you have it. By the way, just to let you know,

you are going to die. Okay, sorry. So we should do it irrespective. I think that if we really want to go to Mars... Die by unnatural causes. There you go. If we really want to go to Mars, we should, scientists should get together and in a somewhat conspiratorial way

tell the world that there's oil on Mars. Yeah, but then we'd be lying. Yeah, but we'd go to Mars. Do you know why there's oil? Or that there's terrorists on Mars. Do you know why there's oil on Earth? Because we have life on Earth. So maybe, okay, maybe there's oil? Or that there's terrorists on Mars. Do you know why there's oil? On Earth? Because we have life on Earth. Right.

So maybe, okay, maybe there's an episode of Mars where there was life. Right. All that life sunk down and then it made oil. So that'd be cool. That would be cool. Go to Mars and get oil. And we'd be there next week. But what I joke about is we should go to China and go, psst, go tell the leaders of China,

psst, can you leak a memo? Don't be true. It doesn't have to be true. Just leak a memo saying you want to put military bases on Mars. Boom, that's it. We're done. There you go. We're on Mars.

We're on Mars in 10 months. 10 months. One month to fund, design, build the spacecraft. Nine months to get there. Next, StarTalk veteran author Mary Roach joined us in our seventh season to help us dig into the science of humans at war. Comedic co-host Chuck Nice joins us in studio to ask us your fan-submitted questions. Okay, Christian Prisbelek from Twitter says this.

Do vets of armed combat face a disproportionate number of chronic health issues, and does race play a role or as well as class? So class and race, do they play a role in the chronic health issues that vets face? And do vets face more chronic health issues than anyone else by virtually being a vet? Yeah, there's a tremendous amount. Just starting with the number one VA expense, hearing loss. Really?

It's not just bombs going off and rifle fire. It's steady state noise. You're in a Blackhawk helicopter, which is like 106 decibels. They have hearing protection. Chuck's imitating a helicopter. You like that? Can you do an M16?

Well, M16 is a little bit more staccato, so it's M16 the rifle. Sounds like a duck. I do. But then there's the Huey from Vietnam. But then there's the Huey from Vietnam. It's like it was a pulsing sound. So you're saying the consistent, being persistently bathed in high decibel sound, even beyond just whether you were near an explosion. Right.

And the other problem is that when the noise, when things go kinetic, when there's fire, when there's like, there's no warning. You don't have time to go, roll down my foam ear plug and pull my outer ear back and put that,

you know, there's just not time and they're not going to wear that stuff all the time because you lose your situational awareness. You can't hear somebody shouting, get down,

there's somebody over there. So they... They've tried to do that in some movies. Well, they have. Yeah, they have. Special operations is really cool. Bionic hearing.

It's so cool. It's a headset, and it attenuates the loud noises. It changes the range. Right, so the loud stuff gets quieter, and the quiet stuff is amplified. So you're like the bionic. I was like, did-did-did-did, so you could hear across the room. Yeah, that was the eye, what you're doing. Was that the eye?

That was the eye. That was the ear? That was the ear. Okay, I think you're right, yeah. Tammy Summers had the ear. She had the ear. And now she's selling mattresses. Late night TV.

Can you hear me now? So, okay, so that's interesting. So these, so. Anyway, yeah, but that's just, that's the biggest one. But then, yeah, you've got a traumatic brain injury and you've got, and orthopedic stuff. I mean, if you're in a vehicle that is designed to withstand an IED going off, I mean, you'll survive, but you, like the bottom of it would come up and slam into the foot and the pelvis and the spines. Speaking of that. Just wear and tear on your body, even if you're not blown up.

So speaking of that, and this question is from. So these are veterans that have been in combat, right? Yes. Not just veterans, generic veteran. Right, right. Because most veterans have not been in combat. Right. Oh, so do they have more?

Well, I don't know. Well, yeah. We presume it's combat veterans. Right. Oh, so do they have more? Well, I don't know. Well, yeah. I mean, you know. We presume it's combat veterans. We would have to assume because, I mean, I'm going to say Carpal Tunnel doesn't count. I've been sitting at this desk filling out these reports for weeks. My wrists are killing me. Actually, I have this book called Dear America, which is a collection of letters home from Vietnam.

Right. That was collected before they made a Vietnam Memorial here in lower Manhattan. And so on the memorial are subsets of these letters. The book is all of them. And just to your point, Mary, these are letters from all manner of servicemen serving in Vietnam. And there's some talking about their friends getting blown up in front of them and wading through the muck and mire and the mosquitoes. And then there's another letter of someone who's in an office in Vietnam saying, I can't, you know, I don't want to laugh, but it's so hot in here, it's almost 94 degrees,

and the fan doesn't work. These working conditions are unbearable. It's like, do you have any f***ing idea what's going on? Around you? Around you? Right. My typewriter keys are sticking. The humidity.

So I think your biggest problem is your biggest problem. That's really what that is. Whatever your biggest problem is, that's your biggest problem. Wow, that's cool. Chuck, how many questions can you squeeze into this? All right, you know what? Try it, go.

Here's the deal. We're going to go philosophical. Les Ollenhauser says, do you think there can be or ever has been something that can unite humans so effectively as war? What a profound question.

Mars mission. Ooh, look at profound question. Mars mission. Ooh, look at you with the Mars mission. Landing a human Mars mission. Everybody's going to tune in to that, right? Don't you think? I don't know. Well, so let me agree to that. So I've thought a lot about things that unite humanity.

Okay. So one of them is war, which is the largest organized unification of humans that we experience. That immobilizes us like a good war. Exactly. And what odd thing is that immobilizes us against one another, but it's nonetheless mobilizing. Another one is the Olympics.

True. And another is the World Cup. Which, by the way, is a metaphor for war. Yes, it is, actually. And so, too, is the World Cup. Exactly. Except you way, is a metaphor for war. Yes, it is, actually. And so, too, is the World Cup. Exactly. Except you don't end up dead at the end of it. Right.

So, the World Cup, the Olympics, and the International Space Station. When you look at the cost of the International Space Station, the number of countries involved, it is the greatest collaboration of nations outside of the waging of war. Really? You look at just the total investment that has gone in it, basically $3 billion a year plus. So, yeah, yes. So I agree landing on Mars could do that if it's done as a multi-national consortium.

Which it would be, wouldn't it? I mean, don't you think? It can be, but I don't have enough confidence in the human species to think that we wouldn't do it out of competitive urges rather than cooperative urges. So you're saying that if we make it a reality show competition between countries, we're more apt to go to Mars than if we were just to wait for us to finally come together. My feeling is that your urge to be innovative is greater stimulated when you're in competition than when you're in cooperation. That's my feeling here. Okay.

As capitalism, at its best, reveals. Right. I want your money. I don't want you to give your money to the other person. So now that competition drives me to be better. There it is. There it is. Gotcha.

There it is. Welcome back to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and you've been listening to our special Time Capsule episode. We've sent out a survey to all our fans, as we do every season, and you replied with your favorite episodes, favorite guests, and favorite co-hosts. On this next episode of Cosmic Queries, I'm joined in studio by co-host Eugene Merman and the founder of Skeptic

Magazine and author of The Moral Arc, Michael Shermer. You asked us your questions about the intersection of science and morality. So let's take a listen at where that conversation went. So here's Josh I on Twitter asks, if we found life on other worlds, how would that affect the way we look at life on our world? Yeah, so let me try to shape that. So, if we find aliens and they have a different social contract with one another, are we in a position to say, no, that is

morally low, we have a higher moral fiber, here's what you should do? Because it's kind of what Star Trek did every now and then. The prime directive is don't interfere with the civilization, but they always did. Yeah, that'd be a dull show. Oh, these people are awful. We should go. These Greek-dressed aliens are so sensual.

Goodbye. I saw that one. They're all in togas. I think this is like half the episodes of the 60s. Togas in miniskirts. Yeah, exactly. How unusual that they've adopted the fashion of the 60s and 5,000 years before that.

So is there... Well, two things, I think. Is this moral arc something that not only goes beyond our species? I think so. That's audacious, you know. Oh, I know, but you've got to think big. How many aliens have you talked to?

Six. Self-identified. Let's see, my wife's from Germany. Is that an alien? You have to be an extraterrestrial alien. Oh, I see, extraterrestrial. Well, so I do speculate about this at the last chapter toward the end of the moral arc, that if we encountered aliens, would they be good or evil?

As you know, Stephen Hawking came out with that statement, you know, I think the aliens will be evil, they'll conquer us, they'll be colonialists, and so on. I argue just the opposite. You can't become a viable space-faring civilization, say a Type II civilization, and be like the Romans or the Nazis or, you know, some conquering imperialistic, you know, 18th century, constantly at war type country. Your claim is Battlefield Earth is unrealistic. Yes, that's right. I think really you'd have to be a peaceful, more cooperative. You'd be more like the direct world. No, no.

Part of that argument is if you are that expansionist, and everyone feels that way about being expansionist, and you fight wars to accomplish it, as you start colonizing planets your expansionist attitudes then conflict with one another right and you basically self-destruct right so there's got to be some sense of peace and cooperation deep within how you function as a species to not uh implode under under your own the shortcomings of the thing that got you there in the first place so so uh So Stephen Hawking said that because

advanced civilizations, when they go to a new place, generally do attack. Is there an example that that isn't the case on Earth? There's actual knowledge of how humans treat one another, not on any real knowledge he could have treated, not on any real knowledge he acquired from aliens, if this is a point.

And I'd lean towards you, Michael, on this. Yeah, I mean, when Putin took over that portion of Ukraine, that was very unusual. And it's really the first time any borders have been redrawn with any significance in decades. It's really unusual now for countries to expand their territory and bust in and take stuff. It's more likely that there's just regular war. And besides, the aliens are going to traverse the vast instances of interstellar space and come here and take our coal? Right. I mean,

surely their technologies have gone beyond fossil fuels by the time they get here. Right. But maybe they want all our pretty birds. Martin Badg asks on Twitter, how has our moral standing affected the pace and direction of scientific discoveries? Oh, in the opposite direction.

Well, I do think a more open society where there's more liberties and freedom, freedom of speech especially, and especially freedom for women to be involved and minorities and so on, all that just makes science more appealing and more people involved in all the different scientific enterprises. So then I think it becomes sort of a feedback loop. More science and reason is good for morality. More just and open society is more conducive to science. But how about some of the experiments that you might say, why are you doing that? For example, if you can get the DNA from a mammoth that just got thawed out from a receding glacier line, and then clone it and then create a mammoth in modern times.

And I always joke that how unfortunate for the mammoth, because he was just fine for the Ice Age, and now bring him out just in time for global warming. How cruel can you be? Well, Canada. Yeah, you leave them in Canada? Is that what you're suggesting? There's plenty of room up there. You plunk them down at the right latitude.

Good answer. Maybe you put them all at the top of Everest. I bet it's quite cold. Siberia, there's plenty of space up there. Good answer. I had not thought of that. Okay, that's my first one. Because they couldn't get there before because they would ultimately be broken

off. Now we can drop them out of airplanes. I mean, the Canadian population is decreasing as is the Russian population, so more mammoths. Okay, so that's good. Another one is I was speaking with Richard Dawkins and he said something that while I agreed with it, I didn't want to agree with it. He said if we have the power of cloning from any genetic sequence, then he would be interested in creating the common ancestor between us and chimpanzees.

If you did that, it means a chimp could mate with that as well as humans. That would be so much fun. I can only imagine how popular on the internet that would become. It means a chimp could mate with that as well as humans. That would be so much fun. I can only imagine how popular on the Internet that would become. No, I'm just saying, when he said that, I was like, why would you? Right. It would be under specific conditions. Yeah, so is that morality or is that just ethics? Okay, there would be a moral question.

Or is it ethics? Is it the same thing? That is, do they have rights? So I think in order to allow that ethically, we would have to grant the offspring rights. And then it would have to choose who it made it with. Right, right. You know, there was a novel, a French novel in the 1950s called You Shall Know Them by an author named Vercoers, V-E-R-C-O-R-S. And the story opens with this scientist who kills his son or something like that.

Yeah, he kills his son. And then he calls the police. I've murdered my son. The police show up. And he's basically mated with a female chimp and had an offspring and killed it. And now he's on trial. For what? For murdering what?

Is it a human or is it a chimp? Okay. So that got into the character. What are the characteristics of a human? This is back in the day, you know, are chimps humans? Do they have tools, language, reason? You know, that kind of thing. But, you know, as Jeremy Bentham pointed out, as I talk about in the moral arc, that it isn't can they reason or can they talk, can they feel and suffer? So always our moral consideration for other animals, including possible hybrids or a clone,

would be, you know, are they going to suffer by us bringing them into existence? If they have a good life, then why not? Right. Okay, so then we can diversify the very species that we ever considered to be human creatures. I mean, if we explore space... It would be like X-Men. It would have other kinds of... That would be really fun.

And nothing ever goes wrong in the X-Men. It would have other kinds of... That would be really fun. And nothing ever goes wrong in the X-Men universe, so I would like more of that. Wait, so would this creature be able to... He has a point. He's got a good point. I retract. I retract it. Yeah. Would it be able to learn and speak and sort of...

Well, that's what... I mean, what Richard is after there is... Richard Dawkins. Yeah, what can they do? Do they have language or not? Can they throw parties? Okay, so the morality is not whether you did that experiment. The morality is the product of that experiment needs to be reckoned as someone who is part of the citizenry of the system.

Right, let's give them a seat in the House of Representatives. I think that would be a reasonable and fair thing to do. They may be a little smarter than the current Gickeraback. They might. But same thing with the mammoths. I mean, we shouldn't bring them back if we don't have any place to put them. They can't live a normal life. Well, we can hunt them.

All right. We're winding down our time capsule show here on StarTalk. But first, let's remember one of your favorite episodes. Comedian Eliza Schlesinger joined us as my co-host when she reached into our galactic grab bag of cosmic queries and we answered some of your fan questions. You know how long I've spent staring at the cosmos wondering where my Uber is?

I've spent a lot of time in space. That brings to mind, if space travel becomes a thing, we would need Uber spacecraft. Yeah. That would be interesting. College kids all over the place would be like, I got a great way to make some money. Yep. And there's no collisions. Yeah, actually, it's much harder to collide if you're moving in three dimensions than if you're only moving in two.

I say this all the time. I say this all the time. It's a profound fact. So think about traffic jams. You're in a traffic jam because you're on a road and you can't go over or- On a single plane. Not only on your single plane, on a road, you're on a one-dimensional path. Right.

Right? Typically, there's more than one lane, though. Regardless, if you're stuck in traffic, all you have to do is go above or below. Introduce another dimension. You can pass all the traffic like this. And that's why we need space cars. Space cars. In the future, they always And that's why we need space cars. Space cars. In the future, they always have them going through buildings.

I know. That was my future that we tried to come up with and failed. Like, oh, so the fifth element was your idea. All those cabs and stuff. Flying cars. You know, we've been dreaming of flying cars since the 1950s. I know. And it will be a thing, and it's going to be terrible.

But a flying car is no different from having a lot of bridges and tunnels. Right. It allows you to go above and below. It's a lot different in that there's nothing holding you to where you are. You've got a bridge. You have to stay on that bridge. A flying car is just like, let's just be. However, if the engine breaks of a flying car, you are falling brick. True. That's the difference between being on a bridge or in a tunnel. Right. Okay. So there's pros and cons. We'll say there's pros and cons. In fact, I think we do have flying cars. They're called helicopters.

Yeah, but helicopter is so expensive. That's how I got here. I've actually had that thought. I'm like, is there a way to get a helicopter? And I feel like these statistics for helicopters, I feel like they crash a lot. Well, because when the motor goes out, in a plane, if the engines die, it's a glider. And a helicopter, if the engines die, it goes straight down. It shouldn't be an option that the engines It goes straight down Shouldn't be an option

That the engines die Like that just shouldn't Be an option Shit happens Right So they're gonna have To have like Meteoroid insurance

Or like Asteroid insurance If you're flying Through space And you get hit by one Yeah Like farmers Like you better cover that

That would be one I hadn't thought about that But yeah You could be hit By a micrometeorite Going five miles per second That would ruin your day Yeah Debris from like our last space shuttles that happens to an engine part it's a daisy okay fair enough so what do you have okay so do i do the uh patreon page that's

what your first time doing this i hope it's not your i hope it's not your last time you hope it's not my last as well okay we'll be the we'll judge that we'll be the judge of that that's why i gave you the doe eyes trying to flirt my way, which has not gotten me far. So go for it. These first? So what happens is we have our Patreon supporters. One of the guarantees they get is if they ask a question for Cosmic Queries, then we get to ask their questions first. Okay. So I'm going to ask this one because there was so... I'm going to read it with the emphasis and the enthusiasm and the fervor that I feel they wrote this with.

Good. Go for it. Feel them. Yeah. So I'm thinking this person's also a fellow Jew. You're not Jewish. I am. Okay, here we go.

From Michael Cohen in Augusta, Georgia, which is weird that there's a Jew there. Hello, Dr. Tyson. This question burns in my mind. I asked NASA and wasn't satisfied with their answer. If light can't escape a black hole, then doesn't that mean that the escape velocity of a black hole beyond the event horizon exceeds the speed of light itself? Could black holes be the exception to the speed of light as we know it? Thank you, at Cosmic Cohen. Wow, that was beautiful. Thank you. That was totally, you embodied whoever that Cohen person

is. I omitted the fact that you misused than instead of than. No big deal. Did I say than? Oh, no, he did. Oh, okay. Pointing out the one part that I understand, which is literature. Be nice. He's the one Jew in Augusta, Georgia. Represent. Okay. That was the question about. So, yeah. So it's, uh, the question is stated accurately. There are two ways to think about the black hole. One of them is that beyond inside the event horizon, the the question is stated accurately. There are two ways to think about the black hole. One of them is that inside the event horizon, the escape velocity is greater than the speed of light. That's kind of a classical way to think about it. But what has actually happened is the space-time curvature

has basically closed in on itself. There is no path out of the black hole that you can take no matter what. And so not even a beam of light can get out. So that is all true. You can't get out. By the way, just because the speed of light required, just because to get out of a black hole requires you travel faster than light, doesn't mean that you are. And so Einstein- Doesn't mean you can't. No, it doesn't mean you can. Right, right, right. So we're all cool. Relativity is fine. It's really hypothetical because you physically can't do it.

Correct. So it's all in theory. There is no known law of physics or observation that would enable you to escape a black hole. Not even if you take the subway. Correct. So, yeah, yeah. So I'm disappointed that they couldn't get a good answer from NASA. I wonder where they asked.

I feel like NASA was like, please stop tweeting at us. The Russians are hot on our tail. We've got bigger things to deal with. Please stop. Here's a mug and a hat. How did you know that?. The Russians are hot on our tail. We've got bigger things to deal with. Please stop. Here's a mug and a hat. How did you know that? Because they're always hot on our tail. Haven't you been to the movies?

Okay. Would you like a real question? Yeah. Give me whatever you got. Okay. This one's, is the Martian based on a true story? I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Okay. This one's a good one. I'm not authorized to answer that question. I saw that movie and I was like, I guarantee if I tweet this, people will be like, oh my God, I thought so. I read the book. All right. This is from Jeff Gertchen, at Jeff Gertchen. Does space smell? Oh yeah. So I once tweeted an answer to that question. So somebody is not a follower. So you know what? Go back and look it up. Because you're lazy and there's no lazy in space.

There's no lays in space. So here's what happens. Smell is a chemical phenomenon. And it involves molecules interacting with your olfactory glands. And in the vacuum of space where there are insufficient molecules to trigger that, no, you're not smelling a damn thing. So it has to do with the molecules outside and inside. It's not just all.

Molecules are outside. They come inside. And then you smell what was outside, right? You're inhaling. So now here's a way to smell something. If you face the sun and the sun starts singeing your skin on your face, then it'll burn. And then you'll smell the burning flesh. How long are you facing the sun, though?

How close? Are you saying you can't see? You have to be, if you're close enough and you make this, yeah, you'll get singed, and you'll smell the singed outer skin layers. That's horrific. I'm just saying, you want to smell something in space, that's how you smell something. You've been listening to StarTalk Radio, and I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Join us next time when we kick off a brand new season eight with more science, more comedy, and more pop culture. Thanks for being with us all year.

That's all for now. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.