StarTalk Radio - The “Bang” in Big Bang with Charles Liu

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Could slowing time increase mass? Do particles ever collide or do they just get really really close? Did anything go “bang” during the Big Bang? Neil deGrasse Tyson, co-host Paul Mecurio, and astrophysicist Charles Liu tackle these cosmic questions and more!NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free.Thanks to our Patrons Ty Jones, Mitchell Johnson, Bunny D, Julia Lord, Maurice, Garrett Wilson, TheRoyleKiwi, Velhaagrande, Sxyncerebral, Billy Caldwell, Debra Amandola, Dillon Fried, Urich, Mark Loucas, sparcis, James Hudson, Luc Miron, Debra, Richard Starr, Mark R, Mark Van Vrancken, Chirag Ahluwalia, Carole Fredrickson, Eddy, Chris Wells, Tomas E, Claire Richard, Andrew Atkins, Trevor steed, Srinivas N Ch, Pim Bliek, Joe Stradi, Austin Devillier, Johnny Le, Simao Voloch Neto, and Hardy Chen for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

So Paul, those are some fun questions in a Cosmic Race grab bag. And from all over the world, literally. All over the world. And you know, what I think what people are going to see in the upcoming episode is that we pretty obliterate time. Time. It's just mushy.

Time succumbs to our logic and rational thought. Coming up on Star Talk. Welcome to Star Talk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Star Talk begins right now. This is Star Talk. Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, that got with me as co-host today, Paul McCurio, Paul, welcome back. Thanks, thanks for having me, great to be back with you.

Yeah, this is the attorney stockbroker turned comedian? Yes, attorney investment banker turned comedian. Just nothing funny about lawyers and stockbrokers. No, exactly. Okay. Another way to like run from it as fast as I can. All right. So Paul, we're going to do grab bag cosmic queries.

We are, we got some great queries here. And I don't trust myself in grab bag mode. Yeah. I need backup. Yes you do. I got to go for the big guy. You need your starsky, your help. I do.

Another role reference. Starsky and Scott, yeah. Wait, I'm starsky. You get me 70 to get that reference. He did pull up in a Ford Torino. Oh, that's terrible. Charles Liu, welcome back to Star Talk. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's been that long? It's been a quarter century. Jeez, it feels like yesterday that I came over here and this place was a hole in the ground. Yeah, it does feel that way. And it was, you have intellectual and sweat equity

in what we built here. So we're thankful for that. It was fun. That's weird, because when we were talking, he wasn't here, you said he didn't do much. You took a lot of the credit. I don't know. Well, you know, he's not wrong.

I was just hanging out here all night having a great time. Yeah, that's all it was. Just jump right in. Okay, all right, let's do it. This is Galaxy. Hey, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Lou, I am- But Galaxy's the person. Yeah, Galaxy.

Galaxy, okay. That's there. I am Brian from Roseville, California. I just recently joined the Patreon and I'm excited to have my question answered. Welcome. Yes, thank you. How can I say it right?

Welcome to the universe. Okay. We dim the lights when you do that. Woo. I have always wondered how giant gas clouds and nebula exist in space. Shouldn't the vacuum cause all gas to disperse evenly to the point of not being, even being able to see it?

I love that, because on Earth, any cloud of gas disperses. That's right. As dogs know. That's right. Dogs will smell you from far away because whatever is your stank. Yep.

Ha ha ha ha ha. One minute in and he tells the guest has a steak. This is a lesson anybody watching on how not to host a show. At least it's not smell-o-vision. Goodness gracious. Yeah, so it does dissipate. It's a great question. You look at blood in the water and that.

Does it dissipate evenly? It's a diffusion equation where you have molecules, it wouldn't happen in solid, because all the molecules are just rigid, but in a fluid. They can vibrate. But you're not going to move it through the system. No, there's a phase issue.

I'm saying it's not going to move through the system. Just trying to get technical. Wow, this is getting tense already. Well, he called me skank, I mean, what am I supposed to do? I didn't say skank, I said stank, stank. We don't need this, we'll do our own show. There we go, okay, Paul, we out of here. No, stop.

So, so the diffusion equate, so you have a molecule that can move like all the others, and it just works its way through. In my high school, there was a diffusion experiment where there's a long tube, it was in one of these display, because we didn't have any athletic trophies to put into a geeky high school, so it got put on its stuff in your hallway display cases.

It's a hall of beakers? One of them is a very tall beaker, yes, about this tall, if I remember correctly, I was littler, not much littler, but I think it was this big. And there was ink at the bottom. And they carefully put water on top of it. And throughout the year, you got to watch, because the ink is slightly denser,

but still they're both fluids. And so you get to watch the ink work its way up real slowly. At my high school, they had diffusion experiments every afternoon after the school lunches were served bean soup. Oh! And in every classroom, there was experiment, different particles suspended in the atmosphere,

moving from one side of the classroom to the other after you first heard that something was coming. And people didn't figure out to not eat the bean soup. Right, exactly. And that's where you got your name skank. Right? Stank, stank, stank, stank. So did you, but could you do that with ink?

Could you do it with oil, like cooking oil? Yes. Well, it's harder, no, because oil would float, and the miscibility between oil and water is very different between, because ink is, has, is most inks that we use today are water-based anyway. So the water is finding the water molecules. So Brian, the answer is basically

the conditions out in space make it so that these gas particles tend to disperse unless they have a reason to collect. Okay, here on earth, you have different kinds of things like buoyancy involved and things like that. That also happens in space. But in space, when the temperatures are very low, say 400 degrees blow zero Fahrenheit,

gravity can actually overcome a lot of the emotional sort of dispersive diffusive. Emotional? Emotional. Emotional? Emotional. Motional. Motional, okay. Yes. It could be emotional.

You know. You can't say, I ain't doing this. It's very moving. That's why you tear up. You start crying a lot. Emotional, I never heard that word. It's true. Not to become a star.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, so some guys start to become stars, yeah. Yeah, when it's cold, the random motions of the gases are actually overcome by the mutual gravity that they exert on each other. What does it happen? Is it dispersing in an even nature?

Not at all. Everything is turbulent. If you go see, for example, beautiful pictures of say the Orion Nebula or other interstellar clouds, you see that they're streaky and strange and unusual shape. They look like horse head, they look like helixes streaky and strange and unusual shape. They look like horse heads. They look like helixes and cat's eyes and things like that. And that's completely because the turbulence

is still going on. Is it that or is it just on gigantic scales? You're smoking something funny. That too, both worked. We got to ask these stars that are emitting their planetary nebulae, what are they smoking? I think that would be a very, very good idea. But the bottom line is that in space,

you have gravity holding these clouds together long enough for them to do things like form stars and planets. But there's always these forces and these different energies and so forth for trying to disperse them. And so you get beautiful combinations and that's why you get beautiful nebulae

and you get things like stars and planets. I will add that you have a gas cloud that makes a family of stars, so that eats up most of the mass of the gas cloud, but there's part of the gas that didn't participate in the formation of the planet. A little snooty, like you were in high school. A little snooty, a little standoffish.

Nah, I don't think I'm. It just wasn't, it was, and that gas doesn't always land on a star. Do we know why in all seriousness? Well now the gas doesn't have enough gravity to make it a next star. We're done. No, but at the time, and I'm not trying to be funny.

It's too far away. That gas, like all the other gases had an equal opportunity to be part of that. It's not an equal opportunity system. If you're a little too far away, you might not feel the strong enough gravity to participate. All the other gases had an equal opportunity to be a part of that. It's not an equal opportunity system. If you're a little too far away, you might not feel the strong enough gravity to participate. And the stars form without you,

and then the whole galaxy is rotating, okay? So your whole system with your stars and your gas is moving and there's new other stuff. So your gas can get stripped and scatter into the galaxy never to make another star. So that gas just continues as gas throughout the universe. And these are the particles that comprise the interstellar medium even between the gas clouds.

It's not completely empty. Okay, and can that gas marry with other gases and eventually and sort of possibly be part of another? It depends completely on what Neil was saying. What is the rotational shear? What is the temperature in the environment? How much of it just happens to gather at this moment, whether it can actually collect or not collect.

It's really beautiful and fascinating dynamic. But the funny thing is it is very, very sparse, right? Here on earth, we have trillions upon trillions of particles of gas, even in the tiniest, you know, beaker or vial, but out in space, just even a couple of hundred miles above earth's surface, we're lucky if we even get one gas particle. It'd be the best vacuum ever created on earth

is what just space. So people who study interstellar clouds are literally studying nothing. And yet that's the nothing from which we come from. So it's endlessly fascinating. Such is the layout of this cosmic ballet. Well said. Choreographed by the forces of gravity.

It's more like a Martha Graham kind of. Ballet makes it too orderly. I'm feeling Alvin Ailey. Okay. I'm feeling Alvin Ailey going Okay. Alvin Ailey going on. Yeah, we go Alvin Ailey. I've been buked. Wins every time.

All right, we're moving on. Great question, great answers. Christopher Winn, hello Dr. Seif and Dr. Lew. I am Chris Winn from Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I'm new to preaching, I love to show. My question is, during the Big Bang, what went bang? If we don't know, what are your best guesses?

There's only one answer here. It's the universe went bang. Right. Okay, next question. What went bang? I can take that. Well, we know the idea of personal space was blown up. Look, the term Big Bang was actually coined by,

or attributed. But it's so misleading because it's about expansion, it's not about bang. It's attributed to. And why don't you guys fix that? I've tried. There's a lot of legacy language that permeates our field, and it makes it historically interesting.

Can I ask a question? No, so. In all seriousness, how would that process work within the scientific community if you wanted to sort of take on the task of changing the terminology? Oh, you mean like if you change the. Don't even say it. Stop it, stop it.

I'll kick you out of this office and throw you off the roof. No, say it. I already stank, so why not, right? Think about it, stank. No, no, no, no. Wait, no, no. Go ahead, go ahead. Two very important points here.

So finish your Big Bang story. The Big Bang term is attributed to a guy named Fred Hoyle. It was an interview done early on in the middle of the 20th century. Back when ideas for the beginning of the universe were still uncertain, and it was still contesting. Right, and so he himself did not like the idea that the universe was still uncertain. And it was still contesting. Right, and so he himself did not like the idea that the universe started from nothing

or something very small and became something big. And so the journalist that he was speaking with or interviewer or whatever says something like, so you're thinking the universe is kind of like a big bang of some kind, and that just stuck. Did he do it to make science in all sorts of sexy, like sort of to get people to sort of more excited? Today no one really knows.

I've seen it historically expressed as it was derisive or that it was spectacular, one or the other. But yes, the right answer is it's an expansion of space and time from something small to something big. It was not an explosion. And now we have this problem where we think, oh, if the Big Bang is an explosion, what did it explode into?

Things like that. Well, a key part of that is- Wouldn't explode from, yeah, if the Big Bang is an explosion, what did it explode into? You know, things like that. Well, a key part of that is- Wouldn't it explode from, yeah, there's a lot of other- And then there's this thing called, this is your cosmic inflation, right? That's right. Which happened in the first tiny fraction of a second. Which is an expansion within an expansion.

Right. You know, imagine if you're blowing up a balloon slowly, and then suddenly someone slaps you on the back, and your air all goes out at once, and it blows up. And we call that inflation, which gets mixed in with all kinds of other things. Named during the Jimmy Carter era hyperinflation that existed at the- Just before, just before.

Nixonian times. Are you sure? But there is a theory- But it was like 10%. It was in the seven, but there is a seven. 10% inflation. When this happened, okay, this cosmic inflation, there is a theory that a gas cloud formed the initials

when, which is when inflation now. Jimmy Carter. Come on, that was good. Okay. See how I brought that back? Come on. It's historical though. Yeah.

Right? By the way, just a quick, just while we're on the, how does it relate back to society? I came of age, I'm a little older than you, I came of age when people. I think I heard him whisper, you're oldest dirt. I didn't think it was a very scientific term, but that's what he used.

I think I'm 20% older than Charles here, plus or minus. So I came of age when we applied computing power to what galaxies would do to each other So I came of age when we applied computing power to what galaxies would do to each other when they encountered. Classic paper by two brothers, Alar and Yuri Tumre in 1972. Tumre and Tumre, yes. Terrific paper.

What kind of data are you inputting into the computer? So we saw these weird looking galaxies out there. This is just an analog, so I don't want to spend too much time on it. Really weird looking galaxies. there. This is just an analog, so I don't want to spend too much time on it. Really weird looking galaxies. And there was someone in our field who compiled them into one catalog.

Chip Arp. Called the Atlas of. Hicule, your galaxy. Yeah, these are galaxies, it's just weird. They don't match any form. So I don't know why, but here they are. And everyone's saying, what could make these galaxies? Are they born that way?

And then, Gerard de Vaucouleur, who was at Galaxy. Jerry, I call him Jerry. Yeah. We're like this. He, he was very French. He, very. He was pretty sure that a crashed Lexus is not a different kind of car.

It's still a Lexus, okay? so he, that was his handle on. So he becomes a Toyota, good one. So the idea that, no they're not peculiar, they changed because they had these encounters, these collisions. These galaxies collide. Yes, and they're colliding all the time. Okay, now I forgot why I was even going to mention this.

How's we conflict? Where was I going to get an underflation? Oh yeah, so at the timeiding all the time. Okay, now I forgot why I was even gonna mention this. Where was I gonna get non-inflation? Oh yeah, so at the time, this is now in the 80s, okay, these are your people now in the 80s, we called this, no no, you'll understand why in 10 seconds. So we called it in our field, mergers and acquisitions.

We did! Yes, galaxy mergers and acquisitions. Oh my god. We did. Are you serious? Yes, yes. I had no idea. Galaxy mergers and acquisitions. Oh my god, because that was so hot then. It was so hot, right out of Wall Street. So we have inflation and mergers and acquisitions. And now look where we are.

That's right. We're with Dr. Stank. And. and um hello i'm alexander harvey and i support star talk on patreon this is star Talk with Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. The Big Bang within the Big Bang at the tiny fraction of that moment would happen. Is there still yet an explanation as to why that had happened? There are numerous competing hypotheses, but we don't have the experimental evidence

to show the initial burst, or the thing that caused it to happen. We're pretty sure it did happen. And we got close to that energy. The bigger is our particle accelerator, the earlier in time it can see, not see, but represent in the temperature density in the particle accelerator,

you can say in the first microsecond or the first nanosecond of the universe, what was the temperature? Oh my gosh, it was this high. Have we ever reached that temperature in the lab? No, not yet. The day we do, we get to say we think we have sampled what the early universe

would have looked like. Do new particles pop in? Is there a dark matter particle that shows up? We don't know. We're still looking. But do you both understand, there's brilliant scientists that lay people like myself are looking for, in all seriousness, solid answers, right?

Like I'm still trying to figure myself out, hang on a second, I'm still figuring myself out through counseling, therapy, whatever. The universe hasn't been able to figure itself out in 13.8 billion years. Can you guys get on the stick? You gave us an answer.

I would like to, I would like to, but this is the, you've hit the key point in the difference between, yes. You've hit the key point between what I think is the difference between scientific truth and non-scientific truth. With scientific truth, we always put in the, but maybe we're wrong part,

that we don't know for absolute sure part. And that's really, really important, right? Science could not have progressed if somebody said, this is the right answer. And then everyone just, oh, okay, okay. People would have stopped scoring. Right, it's incredibly important to recognize that we have ignorance.

Neil has a terrific term for this, the perimeter of ignorance. We have to understand that there's a space beyond which we don't know the answer yet, or even what we think we know could be wrong because of this, this, this, this, and this. Which is why, Paul, you need to love the questions themselves.

Oh. In your search for answers. That is too profound. Dude, too profound. No, that's Rainer Maria Rilke in a poem. Yes, plus I have to adjust what he just told you here. Like a chiropractor. Cock!

Adjust, wrong word, I need a different word. He's going to straighten your mental back out. Crack! Your mental vertebrae. Yeah, so I put a lot of thought and energy into defining what true means, and I've settled in a way that I think is highly defensible and should be adopted, okay?

So scientific truth is that which has been established by repeated observations and measurements. When that happens, it is not later shown to be false. So we can talk about it as an objective truth. Equals MC squared is not one day gonna be found to be false. That Earth goes around the sun, that the sun is hot, that the sun undergoes thermonuclear fusion,

is not gonna one day be found to be false. What Charles is referring to, we have to have some acceptance that we could be wrong. Yes. About things that we are not definitively correct. On the frontier, we're wrong most of the time. But there are some. 90%, 90%. there are some things that we've reached. At least.

The community is comfortable saying, you're saying that there are some things equals MC squared, et cetera, where we're not questioning that anymore. There's huge things, huge swaths. Otherwise you can't do these. Otherwise we're not flying airplanes. Otherwise you can't do the exploration

into the things that you're doing now. Airplanes wouldn't fly. Rockets don't go to Mars and land exactly where we tell them. You could continue to research that there's another rationale, but I think what you're saying is- No, no, no, hold on. Let me finish.

I'm almost done. Okay. It doesn't mean that we will not one day find a deeper truth in which the experimentally verified truths are embedded. Such was the case with Newton's laws of gravity and motion. Those laws in the realms in which they were tested

are still valid. We went to the moon using Newton's laws and not Einstein. Okay, there was no relativity in the Apollo voyages. It was all Newton's laws of gravity and motion. We then learned that at high speeds, high gravity, Newton's laws break down. Holy shit. Do we discard Newton?

What's going on? Well, there's gravitational weight. So Einstein finds a deeper understanding of gravity and motion, and he gets his theories of relativity, special theory in general relativity. Guess what? When you plug low speeds and low gravity and he gets his theories of relativity, the special theory in general relativity. Guess what?

When you plug low speeds and low gravity into Einstein's equations, they become Newton's equations. People say, oh, we've Newtoned out, Einstein in. That misrepresents what's actually happening here. Well, they call it, it's chicken egg, you can't have one without the other. Well, no, I mean, in terms of the pathways of discovery, you get the restricted case

before you discover the general case My only point is the uncertainty that a scientist brings to the frontier is In the realm of things that we have not yet experimentally verified and it's completely uncertain at that level And we're just duking it out at conferences and the like and the press Eavesdrops on the conferences. The scientists don't know what they're talking about. And then people say, I don't trust science. Yeah, as they're on their smartphone talking to someone a thousand miles away.

I don't trust science, you know? So, I just want to clarify that. And two other truths, there's your personal truth, like is Jesus your savior, is Muhammad your last prophet, is Beyonce your queen rather than Taylor Swift. So that's a personal truth. And then you have political truths, which are things that become true in your head

simply because they were repeated so often, which are the foundations of- Or because you read it on Twitter. Yeah, no, it's how many times you read it. It's how many times. And so, those are the foundations of propaganda. But is that any different than commercial advertising? No, exactly the same thing.

You're going to show you this toy, Toyota, 50 times, and by the end of the week, you're going to be like, I got to get a Toyota, that's a great car. And no matter what they're telling you, that becomes true. So those are the three truths. And I will never speak of an absolute truth because that's not what science does. Newton's gravity was proven to be wrong is true.

It was wrong because in certain conditions in the universe, Newton's gravity was proven to be wrong is true. It was wrong because in certain conditions in the universe, it was not correct. But that's an eye-opening moment. But that didn't mean. But those are extreme conditions well beyond the experimental realm. But that expands our, not correct. It's a good thing.

When a bad thing happened like that, it's a good thing because it expands our basic mind. And you don't call it bad. That's right. You don't invest emotions in it. Does it mean? Some people do, but it's a good thing because it expands our base of mind. And we don't call it bad. We don't invest emotions in it. Some people do, but it's not good if you do. Well, I talk like a six-year-old. No, so do I. Well, this is perfect because this next question

is about gravitational waves. I'm telling you, this is eerie. Okay, this is Mitchell Ransom. Mitch from the UK. I would love to know more about what we can learn from gravitational waves. It's cool, we can detect them, but what can that do for our understanding of the universe?

Marvelous question. Perfect, perfect. Marvelous question. You take this out back clean up on it. Okay, go. I will be the one soto to you. The one soto. Oh, time. And then I'll be the guy who shouldn't steal The one so-to. Otani.

And then I'll be the guy who shouldn't steal second and doesn't get thrown out and ruins the inning. Well, if Otani were stealing, he'd actually make it. Oh my God, yeah. Or if you're gonna steal second, do it deep into the count of a batter you wanna see come up again in the next inning. Also the, that's true.

Right, cause they get fresh. Right, and also. This is fundamental baseball, which doesn't get talked about nearly as much as it should. We should do a whole thing on baseball. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. We could long over a gap.

I mean, I think the pitch clock, while it's helped speed the game up, I mean, stealing is so much more interesting and fun to watch because you go over there twice, you know you're going to get, you can't go back at the third time. That's right. they're very interesting. Rules are always fun too, talking about rules and sports.

It's the most interesting sport to watch, I think baseball because of all of the machinations. But anyway. Yeah, okay. Well, here's the deal. Gravitational waves are essentially to the universe and space and time as say ripples are in a pond, right? So if you see ripples going on in a pond

or any body of water, you can deduce things about that pond. What is the water made out of? Is there duckweed on the top? How deep is it? Is there ice? You know, things like that. All the different things about that puddle. Okay, the depth is, affects the amplitude of the ripple.

Completely, right. So it's why when you're at the beach, how come, you see a swell sort of out there, but then it gets closer to the shore, it becomes a big wave. So the energy that is out there in the ocean, which is shared vertically to the bottom of the thing, as you get shallower and shallower,

that energy has to manifest somehow, and the height of the wave grows. And so the energy is the same, but the height and how you experience it as a beach-goer. But where does wind come into this? If I'm, like I said, because wind can create a ripple. Wind can also create a ripple. That's right.

The top has an effect, the bottom has an effect, and the side has an effect, right? Where is it coming from? What was it? Bouncing off the sides of the wave. The edges make a difference if you're in a bay or if you're just hitting a wide shoreline. Also, what is the material of the beach?

Is it rocky? Is it sandy? So gravitational waves literally have the opportunity, if we're sensitive enough to detect them, to tell us about space time, the structure of the universe, the things that these ripples go through. Got to add real quick, Charles is talking about things you would know beyond just the simple detection

of the wave. That's right. It's one thing to know that there's a wave there. Now, what's the amplitude? What's the wavelength? How many of these are there? Are they coming from this direction? There's different layers, but the Nobel Prize went to basically

the first time it was ever discovered. And then you can keep asking more detailed questions when your telescopes become better to do so. That's right. But this gets to Newton's law of universal gravitation, which does not provide for the existence of gravitation in ways that asserts that gravity has instantaneous effect, which is wrong because I dropped a 1982 bottle

of Chateau Lafite Rothschild and it fell in slow motion. Did you seriously do that? It landed on a pillow, I'm sure. And it fell in slow motion, everything slowed down. So, he's, Newton's wrong, huh? No, but so now, so that's where Newton and Einstein, right? Or sort of all of it. No, wait, wait, just to be clear,

Newton did not have a strong investment in any expectation that things happen instantaneously. His big concern was that it was action at a distance and there was nothing in between. That was just a little weird. He knew it worked, but he couldn't explain it in any way. But he was not deeply invested. Put an example of that for me.

So there's something in the distance, but nothing in between. Let's say I turn off that light over there. It actually takes a fraction of a second for that light, for that information to get to me that the light is no longer shining. Except for Muhammad Ali. You know what he said?

He said, I'm so fast, I could turn out the lights and be in bed before it's dark. He also floated like a butterfly and stuck like a bee. That guy was pretty amazing. So that speed at which that light and that dark travels to my eye is so fast that I as a human being could never detect it. But if I had a very sensitive camera

that could really stop down time to billionths of a second or trillions of a second at a time, you can actually see it getting darker as it moves forward. Oh, to your eye. Yeah, to your eye. Light moves one foot per nanosecond, per billionths of a second. So you just need billionths and you can catch, catch.

Yeah, so it's. From the side, if you look at it from the side. You would literally see it, right now there's a straight white line of light and then you'd see it getting darker, darker. Well, there's also background it, right now there's a straight white line of light and then you'd see it getting darker. Well, there's also background light. Remember our light is primarily illuminating. If you have a laser and put chalk dust in there

and you see it and then you do this. That would work, that would be a great way to do that. Absolutely. But people don't know what chalk dust is. Yeah. Yeah. Go to a baseball game. There you go.

Oh yeah, yeah, for the thing. So Newton really didn't get the sense or understand that there was a time lag, right? Einstein. Which is what gravitational waves are all about, right? Right, right. Well, they move at a speed limit. Einstein showed that information in the universe,

especially carried by light, right, and waves, has a speed limit. And then folks wondered. It's not just a good idea, it's the law. I had to say that. It's a great commercial. Dad joke. What is going on in your brain?

It's a dad joke. It's a whole dad joke. I love the dad jokeness of that. It's really very good. So what happened is that Einstein showed that there was this reasonable sort of speed limit to the universe and the speed at which light travels into the vacuum.

And then folks said, well, you know what? If that's the speed limit of light, maybe that's also the speed limit of these things, these other things, any information at all. And so- Like gravity. Yeah, so maybe gravity only travels at the speed of light. And that's important to know.

When we see gravitational waves, we infer the existence of little tiny particles called gravitons that travel through space in order to have this wave happen. We still have never detected the existence of gravitons in the laboratory. We may never be able to, unless we can get a particle accelerated size

of the solar system. But what we can do is to say, well, this proves that speed of light and speed of gravitational waves and so forth are so close to one another that there must be something there. So that in itself, I guess, is another discovery, right? By gravitational waves existing,

you start putting strict upper limits on the mass of the graviton. Just to be clear, before we knew anything about photons of light, light was described as waves. And then we learned that the wave particle, you know, duality. It can manifest as a particle, the photon,

or as, which you can detect, or as waves, which you can also detect as waves. By analogy to that, gravitational waves are granted a particle counterpart, the graviton. Which is a counterpart, you know, wave to photon. To the photon, correct. And you need different mechanisms to detect it

in that mode. When we say particles collide to create virtual particles, do they really fist bump each other down at the Planck scale, occupying the same voxel at the same time, or do they just get close enough and then, you know, magic happens? Great question, they get close enough. As an undergraduate, I learned about a very technical,

silly term called the impact parameter. Love it. And that means that if you have two things coming toward each other, how close do they have to be before they impact each other, affect each other? They don't have to touch each other. They don't actually have to touch. So like if I did this to you, right,

I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you. He's not touching me. Stop not touching me. I'm annoying you. I'm annoying you. Wait, let's go a layer deeper. We did a whole episode of Cosmos on this.

Because of electromagnetic forces, which hold your body together, when I go up to Charles and I touch him, if you actually analyze what's going on at the molecular and atomic level, I'm not actually touching him. There are forces in a field surrounding the particles, and it's the forces that are bumping off each other.

And this impact parameter exists when there are fields that surround the objects that are coming near each other. Hang on a second, I can see my finger, my skin touching that surface. So? So you're telling me that what I'm seeing. At a very microscopic scale.

There's something between that plastic and my skin. There is space between that plastic and your skin. But what happens is that the fields transfer energy, so your skin still feels as if it is physically touching something. But that's something coming from the bottle and the bottle's coming from the skin. Right, so there is a tiny bit of space in between, and there is stuff passing between it.

Otherwise your finger would just pass through the plastic. So there's a space like my emotional relationship with my wife, there's a sliver. We don't want to get into. So I love this, I love this what Charles says because we don't hear that term much, but it's kind of, it's almost self-explanatory. It's the distance within which you can declare

there was an interaction between the two. Is there a way to measure that? You can put it in the mathematical equations and say, okay, well, I have some force field in my finger. You have some force field in that plastic container. When they come together, how close do they have to be before I feel the force of those container particles pushing on my finger particles? It's more precise than that.

So you have two, I'm pulling this out of my 30 year memory. 30. You can ask, okay. 30. So if two objects, two gravitational objects, have come by and one just gets pulled a little bit, you can say, all right, what does that mean? But you can define, just for conversational

and mathematical purposes, the impact parameter is the distance within which its trajectory will be altered by more than 90 degrees. It's pretty cool. So that's why when we talk about, say, colliding galaxies, the stars in the galaxies actually never hit each other. They never touch. Almost never have direct collisions.

Passes through. But they go by each other. And as they go by, it's like a swarm of angry bees. In fact. And they affect each other. To the point where there can be an explosion. To the effect where at times you will have an explosion. That's right.

So if I'm touching this, is there a force that's strong enough or can be measured at which I can push those magnetic fields apart and I'm actually touching it? Is it ever possible to eliminate that field that's between my finger and the pen? It is almost never possible because there is a limit. No.

Beyond which the math breaks down. You see, in the quantum structure of the universe. By the way, I feel like I'm asking to use the car and he's saying maybe and my dad's saying, go ahead, no. Sorry, back up for a minute. Keep it under 30 miles an hour. You'll be all right.

Back up, just story time real quick, okay? I'll be reading from Merlin. Can I have some milk? More milk, hot cocoa? Can I get some hot cocoa, Alex? Merlin's Tour of the Universe. Dear Merlin, is there a chance that another star will one day collide with the sun?

Yes, but you should know that if there were just four snails randomly carousing across the continental United States. Snails don't carouse. Do they? Ha ha ha! Snails croon. Yes. What are they, alcoholics?

Ha ha ha! Drug addicts. Hey, snails are going! Drug addicts. More likely for two of them to accidentally bump into each other than it is for another star and the sun. Seriously? To collide.

Yeah. Yes, and then my artist brother drew two snails colliding here. One of which has a bandana and a gun. That's really weird. The carousing, that's a carousing. So there's mostly empty space, so two galaxies colliding, the stars just passing, but they definitely affect each other gravitationally.

So this star, this star is going by, there's enough energy there that it can cause each to explode? Not necessarily. They'll cause each other to change their trajectories. But once every four seconds or so in the whole observable universe, this is an estimate made a few years ago,

there is actually a direct collision, okay? This is most likely to happen in dense clusters of stars. Very dense. Okay, like globular clusters. And near the center of the dense cluster. Right, in the center of the star where, say for example, in the space, which is normally say a few light years between me and us and Alpha Centauri, for example, there could be a million stars in that space which is normally say a few light years between me and us and Alpha Centauri, for example,

there could be million stars in that space. When the over densities are million to one compared to say our solar neighborhood, you can actually have stars hitting one another and they could actually explode. But the chances of even a collision causing explosion are tiny because stars are mostly made out of gas. So imagine like a star going through another star,

you're basically just having gas clouds smashing into gas clouds and go through. You need the core. But there are molecules within each gas cloud that could sort of collide. But then they don't cause a collision because they're so small, right? They're so low energy.

But if you can get the core of a star, hit the core of a star, hit the core of a star, then you can actually create a star happening. And you create collisions and explosions. Let's make that happen. Come on. Once every four seconds. You guys are doing crazy stuff.

Somewhere in the huge universe. That's higher than I would have guessed. I know, you guys are doing crazy stuff in the basement of this place. Let's make that happen. Okay, I have more questions, but I don't want to divulge anymore not authorized to devil-jay more to you. I don't have the clearance. Paul, time for a couple more.

Oh, absolutely. Very good question here. This is from Morten Lerkjar. This is, I hope... Who? Don't make me say it a second time. Greetings from Norway. Sorry, Morten.

Okay. Morten. Oh, sorry, Morten. L't make me say it a second time. Greetings from Norway. Sorry, Morten. Morten. Sorry, Morten. Lurjar. Lurjar, yes. I hope you can help clarify something for me. If our sun is a third generation star, how is it that we can observe earlier generation stars when looking back in time,

since we are made up of the star dust from those earlier stars, wouldn't their light have already passed by? Perfect answer is the following. I am a third generation from my grandfather, but I can still see my great grandfather if he's still alive. Right. The idea is that the generation in which you are created

may have happened while those earlier generations stars are still alive. So our sun is about four and a half billion years old. But if a first generation star that created it was four billion years old, then the star that was before it was a few billion years old. But then there's a generation of stars that's 13 billion years old. We can still see them because they've still lived.

They're alive still. But that first generation star is always going to be mom's favorite. The third generation son. Yeah. You know, you leave the kid home alone, let him smoke cigarettes when he's 12. That third generation.

You wipe the binky on the pants instead of sterilizing it. You don't care. By the third kid. Yeah, by the third kid. You take the kid to the track instead of taking him to the zoo. You do. I'm sorry, I'm really putting a lot of my personal stuff

coming out here. Man. Wait, Charles, I think you missed the point there. I did. I think. Oh no. I think. Sorry, sorry, Morgan.

I knew that, but I didn't want to say it. I think, okay. The generation of stars that gave their lives to create the elements out of which we are made are not there anymore. You're not going to see your grandfather if you were made out of the flesh of your grandfather or your great grandfather.

They're not going to be there. They're dead because they gave their lives for you. What's going on here is, as we look out in space, we look back in time and see the universe not as it is, but as it once was. So we can look far enough out into space to see the first generation stars do their thing. And beautiful.

We can look eight billion years ago. Eight billion years ago, those are stars manufacturing the elements, and they're about to die to make room for the second generation. And that light is only now just reaching us. But those elements continue to exist like my great-great-grandfather's DNA exists in me. Yes, but he ain't around.

He lives in you. Thank you. Okay, yeah. Is that Lion King? Yes. Oh yeah, good he ain't around. He lives in you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Is that Lion King? Yes. Oh yeah, good, very good. We're mixing two points. I know, but there's two different points.

There's two different points. One point is look back time and the other is the age of things. Okay. When you have a generation of stars form, you have some stars that die quickly, but then you have a bunch of stars that live longer. So those that died quickly contributed their information

or their materials to the next generation. Their elements, the elements that they made. Meanwhile, the first generation still exists. And then that generation goes, and then they form another generation, but those old stars from the first generation still exist. The stars that did not give their lives for us happened to live for a trillion years.

Minimum. Yes, at least. So they're all still around in every galaxy and that's not even about look back time. But some of them gave their lives for us. So the notion that we are second or third generation, generally that only matters because we have elements that earlier generations don't.

Well, those elements, isn't it, the third generation star of the sun is composed of heavier elements like iron and oxygen. Right, yes. So that, because they're heavier, they can exist longer or just pass on? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's just low mass stars live forever

and high mass stars die. And first generation high mass stars died for us. The first generation of stars, like the us. The first generation of stars, like the very, very first generation of stars, may have only formed short-lived stars. This is something that has been speculated. We're not 100% certain yet. It's like the zero generation star.

The ones that- I'm sorry, only formed short generation stars? Short-lived stars. Short-lived. Right, so it's possible that the original, the OG generation of stars is all gone. Right. So it's possible that the original, the OG generation of stars is all gone. Okay. Okay. But certainly we can look back several generations

and see that there are stars from previous generations that still exist. Going back to your sort of analogy of the great-grandfather, it's like, it's as if, if you can see those stars from previous generations that were, it's like your great-grandfather is still alive and you could go see him somewhere. Even though it's being.

Yeah, but he's not the one who gave you your elements. If you can still see him, they're not giving you the elements if they're in your own galaxy. We have all generations of stars within our own galaxy. It has nothing to do with look back time. Yeah, but the elements in that star that I can see that's a previous generation to the sun.

You'll have fewer heavy elements than we do. Okay, but doesn't it share some of the same elements that the sun shares, generationally? It might, yeah. Yes, the sun has all of it, plus the next generation's worth mixed into it. Okay. Yeah. Great question, great point.

Yeah, yeah, good one. Okay. Minade Shondeguy. Who? From North Wales. Who? What? Yeah. Who, what's his name? Minade Shondeguy, from North Wales. Wow. Wow. What'd you learn your Welsh? What's his name? Menaid Shondeguy from North Wales. Wow.

Wow. What'd you learn your Welsh? That's amazing. Or Michael is his name. Okay. Given the relationship between speed and time and the relationship between speed and mass, is there also therefore a direct relationship

between time and mass? In other words, if time were somehow to stop, would everything become infinitely massive and would we be dragged by intense gravitational forces back into singularity? Man. Man. Well, I love that.

That's a drop the mic moment, everybody. Come at me. Look, the mic's on a mic stand. They get some amazing. some amazingly thoughtful people in Wales that are asking questions. Yes, that's incredible. That's incredible. So do you interpret that the way I do?

He's saying we know from relativity that as you go faster, time slows down. Yes. And your mass increases. So instead of having it happen that way, let's figure out a way to slow down time. And would that then have associated with it an increase in everybody's mass? That's right. That's an interesting question. I don't think that can happen. That's not how time works

Because what we're doing when we're measuring speed is How fast you are going through space, right? It's the distance you travel through space divided by the amount of time it took you to get there. Is this question suggesting you could be dragged backwards in time somehow? The suggestion is that you slow time down, right? I think that instead of going at one second per second, it becomes 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6.

To the point where everything becomes singular. Right, and I don't think that can work because the physics of time, which is still mysterious at certain fundamental levels, suggests that you can't really manipulate time that way, the way you manipulate space, or the way you manipulate your speed traveling through space. That's a good point.

And my favorite thought about time is that we are prisoners of the present forever transitioning between our inaccessible past and our unknowable future. You just gave me a headache. I don't even know what you're talking about. I know you'd like that, but I prefer master. You're going to mess with that?

No, but I'm going to provide an alternative from that incredible incredible deep document. Lofty. Kung Fu Panda. Kung Fu Panda. From Master Uguay. Okay. The past is history.

The future is a mystery. All we have today is a gift. And that is why it's called the present. That was from Kung Fu Panda? Yes, it was. Okay. It ain't over till it's over. Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, yogi. That has from Kung Koo Panda. Yes it was. Okay. It ain't over till it's over. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Yogi. That has a time aspect to it. The most. If you think about it. Most profound of all. Don't look down your nose at that. That only works in baseball. No, if you think about it at a deeper level.

If you're in the Super Bowl and one team is down by 21 points. How about it's getting late early? And it's three minutes late. Don't you love it's getting later? The game is over, okay? So it's not over. You still have to put the two minute warnings commercials

in the cover. Right, you gotta sell some soap, buddy. But the full significance of that comment can only exist in baseball where there is no clock. Except now there is with the pitcher. I think that's all the time we have. So Charles, you finished a book recently. I loved it, the Quantum something.

The Handy Quantum Physics Answer Book. They have the word handy and quantum in the same title. That's badass. The goal is to help everyone understand. Which we need, like basic levels, basic explanations of complex things. Quantum feels scary, it feels unknown, but actually we interact with it every day.

And so think of it as a handbook, don't think of it as a textbook. Okay, good. Yeah, good. Nice reference guy. And Paul, where can we find you next? Permission to Speak, my Broadway show, directed by Frank Oz.

Wow. The original Yoda and all of that, and the great director. We're taking it on a national tour. We're gonna be in Florida, in Orlando, Florida, and in Fort Lauderdale at the Broward Center for the Performing Arts, Dr. Phillips Center in Orlando, going to be in Rhode Island.

These are all the good places. Yeah. New York show, very nice. We got a set designed by the set designer for The Late Show, and we have animation. Oh, because you also moonlight. I work at The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. With Stephen Colbert.

Through that show. You warm up the... Warm up and do, I'm going to be making another appearance. I'm going to be making another stand up appearance on the show after the first day or two. And so we got a really cool set. Oh, so you don't only warm up with the audience. Occasionally he'll bring you on for the broadcast. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've done a bunch of appearances on the show. I do sketches and do some work. Like two times a week. You came and said hi to me. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, every time. Yeah, absolutely. And he's like, don't make eye contact with me.

I'm like, okay. Stop, okay. And we got every time, yeah, absolutely. And he's like, don't make eye contact with me. I'm like, okay. Stop, okay. And we got really cool animation in the set. It was JJ Settlemire who did Beavis and Butthead and all the SNL TV front-end, so we created this, it's a multimedia show with a set with this really cool. Oh, we'll go look for you.

It's really cool. So yeah, so people go to paulmcurio.com, get tickets, come out, support the show, would be great. We got it. Or permission to speak is the name of it. Permission to speak. It's been really great to be on with you. Hey, what fun.

As I read some of your work and it's really great. Thank you. Him, eh. He never shook my hand. He never shook my hand. Come on. I love you, buddy, I love you. That's all the time we have.

This has been a Star Talk. Cosmic Queries grab bag. That was definitely some bag grabbing right there. and a Star Talk, Cosmic Queries grab bag. That was definitely some bag grabbing right there. All right, until next time, Neil deGrasse Tyson bidding you all to keep looking up.