StarTalk Radio - The Future of Fusion Energy with Fatima Ebrahimi

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Is fusion the future of energy and space travel? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Paul Mecurio explore the cutting-edge science of plasma physics and fusion energy with Fatima Ebrahimi, a physicist at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab.NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://startalkmedia.com/show/the-future-of-fusion-energy-with-fatima-ebrahimi/Thanks to our Patrons Christopher Salins, Alan Zismann, Paul Johansson, Aaron Brodsky, Debbie Fleming, Thayna Scarpetto, Kris, Jacob Mayfield, Danny Desmond, Tim Ellis, The Running Knitter, Kevin Collins, Mario Funes, Wendi McCall, Paula Patzova, derek lindstrom, Dave Jankus, Mercy Robinson, Linda Safarli, Hexeris, Julian Rassolov, Templex, Joseph, Adrian Aguilar, Nathan Colbert, Andoni Cardenas Huerta, Terrance B, William Strawbridge, Gabriel Torres, enrico janssens, Jonathan Winterrowd, Valentin Scherrer. For Chuck, just call me Val, Ozzie Springer, and Moon Light for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of StarTalk Radio ad-free and a whole week early.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

So Paul, finally catching up with what fusion is doing here on Earth. What it's doing on Earth and where we're gonna be. I know what it's doing in the universe. The sun is plasma. The sun. And doing fusion, the whole universe is this. How about on Earth's surface?

We need it here, we need it now. And we need it locally. Yes. And save money. And when is it gonna happen? That's gonna be something we're gonna find out. Welcome to Star Talk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Star Talk begins right now. This is Star Talk.

Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I got with me Paul McCurio. Paul! What's up? Co-hosting today. Good to see you, my friend. Good to see you, man. It's always fun.

Love you. And you're always doing interesting stuff. I'm trying. Yeah, you got your own like off-Broadway show? Yeah, and then became Broadway, and now we're taking it out around the country. So I was gonna ask you, when's it gonna get on Broadway? Well, we're coming back to it.

I'm trying to see anyone in the streets off Broadway. Right, we ran into each other with nine people across from the late show. Off Broadway. They loved it, yeah. Permission to Speak and directed by Frank Oz. We love Frank Oz. Yeah, he's the best.

And it involves people telling stories and connecting people through shared stories. So you're interacting with the audience. Yes, bringing them on stage, telling my own stories. We were just in Florida with it. We're going to be in Rhode Island. People can go to paulmcuryo.com to see where we're going to be.

Mccuryo. Mccuryo. M-E-C-U-R-I-O. Love it, love it, love it. So, you know what we got today? The day has to arrive in all our lives when you want to be in arm's reach of a fusion expert. Well, I'm glad I could be here.

You could be here. Oh, her, I'm sorry. Fatima Abrahimi, did I pronounce that correctly? Fatima? Almost. Almost. No. Fatima, Abrahimi.

Yes, Fatima Abrahimi. Yeah, see I got that, the last one, okay? I love it, you have a PhD in plasma physics, that's a whole thing, not just physics. Plasma. You gotta say plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

You heard me, I said it right. And you're a research scientist at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, PPPL, out there in Princeton, New Jersey. Yes. Route one, I think. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You should come. There's a fabulous Home Depot right there. Big fan. Yeah. So, this is, people have heard fusion, they've heard the word, and they've heard the word plasma, and most people think blood plasma. This is a completely different plasma.

Blood plasma is like what's left over in your body. I mean, after you take out the red blood cells, I think. Yeah, yeah, so this is not that at all. No, not that at all. Let's start off, get the vocabulary on the table. What is a plasma? So plasma is the fourth state of matter, and it's 99% of observable universe is plasma.

So it's really the first state of matter. Exactly. You want to think of it that way. And it's very unstable, right? It's unstable. No, not necessarily. Don't disagree with me. It could be.

Just because you wrote notes doesn't mean you're correct. Okay? Continue, Vatima. It's actually, we are all floating in a plasma state in our universe. And if you want to see what is actually plasma is, is when electrons are kind of freely moving and charged particles, negative charged particles, ions, positive charged particles, it's basically a soup of charged particles as plasma is.

All right, so why is it that we always, in physics, we see plasma joined together with the word fusion. Why are they relevant to each other? Because our sun, that I agree in, that actually produces a lot of energy is to fuse an energy, and that is in a plasma state. So plasma, in order to get a plasma, it has to be very hot.

Yes. Another thing is a cold plasma, is there? Yes, actually, for the case of fusion, it has to be 100 million degrees to actually achieve fusion. But plasmas, they could have variety of temperature, it could be low temperature plasmas. Oh, then you're not going to have fusion. temperature. It could be low temperature plasmas. High temperature.

Then you're not gonna have fusion. Exactly. You don't have that. Plasmas could also be lightening strikes. That's plasma. So I remember this, not a toy, this thing you could buy. Remember Spencer Gifts? Yeah.

Anyone older than 70 will remember Spencer Gifts. Lava lamps. Yeah, lava lamps. Well, one of them was this ball that had this sort of glowing thing in it and you put your hand on the ball and it would react to your hand touching the surface. Exactly, because it's charged particles, you know.

All of these, you know, the plasma kind of respond. It makes it glow. Exactly, glow, because particles could also can de-excite and kind of produce photons and lights and things. Okay, so the electrons recombine. Exactly. And every time they recombine, they give off light. Exactly.

Excite and recombine and de-excite and you get the light. So that's a plasma that's not at very high temperature. Exactly. Right, exactly, okay. It was just like. A So that's a plasma that's not at very high temperature. Exactly. Right, exactly. Okay, it was just like. A candle is also a plasma. But the flame. It's a flame, yes.

The flame of a candle is, yeah. All right, so now you need high temperature for fusion. Yes. What are you fusing? It's actually required for fusion. High temperature is required to fuse really light atoms, temperature is required to fuse really light atoms, hydrogen, and also isotope of hydrogen, heavier hydrogen, deuterium, and a little bit heavier, tritium, having two actually, neutrons. So they can collide and they can fuse, and it has to be really, really high temperature

to be able to kind of overcome these forces and create a lot of energy through neutrons. So the forces are because you have a positively charged proton over here and another positively charged proton over here. Light charges repel. Exactly. They don't want to get together.

And you're trying to overcome this with high temperature, because high temperature means higher speeds within the soup. And you're able to achieve the high temperatures or we're still working toward the temperatures have to be high enough? The temperature actually can get very high temperature. But are we there yet?

Yes. That's what the protons ask on their long journeys. Are we there yet? Are we there? I have to go to the bathroom. We're not pulling over. Stop. Yes, we achieve really, actually in the experiments

or facilities that we have to create high temperature plasmas to get to fusion, we really get to high temperatures. The temperature we actually achieve in fusion experiments is even hotter than the center of the sun. Yeah, the center of the sun is like 10 million degrees, something like that. Yes, this is 100 million degrees. What do you generate?

What are you using? They're trying to make is 100 million degrees. What do you generate, what are you using? They're trying to make another star. Yes. What do you generate, how do you? Don't tell anybody. This isn't on, is it? No? This is the kind of stuff that like,

when you were a little girl, were you doing these kinds of experiments in your basement? And then your parents said, we gotta, that's how the nemesis to superheroes are done. I'm going to make something hotter than the center of the sun. We just got you an easy bake oven. Well, I'm going to turn it into...

I gave it more power. I gave it more power, and now it's 10 million degrees. You know what I'm baking? Plasma, and you're going to like it. You want it with or without mozzarella cheese? Yes. No, the lights in the town go, mmm, Tim.

That's Fatima again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to confess to that, that's fine. So how do you get high temperature? Yes, how? Because as I understand it, in order to make the plasma high temperature, something else has to be at a higher temperature than it, is that right?

You get the high temperature because plasmas, you know, carry electrons and current, electricity, current, you could say. Because they can. They can, exactly, they can. So therefore, they can get to very high speed and high temperature. So the question is that, so you get this soup,

how do you, where it's going to go? So how do you confine it? If it's 100 million degrees, what are you putting it in to contain it, to control it? To control it is, put a lot of energy through magnets. Wait, so a magnetic field, it's not a physical thing, so you can't melt that. Right. Right, and all a magnetic field, it's not a physical thing, so you can't melt that. Right.

Yes. And all your charged particles, they respond to magnetic field. Exactly. Electromagnetism. It's another force that our universe is electromagnetic force. Yes. That is long range. It's one of the fundamental forces, you know, electromagnetic forces everywhere, you know, our sun, all

the stars, you know, wherever you have plasma, you have electromagnetic forces and they respond to it. So you have the gas, you need to make the state of plasma, which means that you can, you can, you know, have some waves going into the gas, like antennas, and create your plasma. You could induce inductively current into your particles, plasmas. It can go around your chamber, which we are talking about a tokamak chamber,

a donut-shaped chamber. So, yeah. A tokamak. Yeah. Right, because Princeton has a tokamak. Yes, yes, it has a tokamak., a donut-shaped chamber. So, yeah. A tokomak? Yeah. Right, because Princeton has a tokomak. Yes, yes, it has a tokomak. What does that word even mean? Yeah.

Because it's Russian. Oh, it's Russian. That's a Russian name? It's two Russian scientists called this configuration. Tokomak. Toko and Mak. No, no. Toko and Mak. They were a great act in the 70s in Atlantic City.

They worked the Stardust. Toko and Mak. They were a great act in the 70s in Atlantic City. They worked the Stardust. Toco and Mac. They worked the Flamingo. Okay, so I did not know that. It's named for actual scientists. No, it's not actual scientists. The two scientists actually called it. It's kind of their invention, Toco and Mac.

So when you say this chamber, the chamber is basically sort of harnessing or controlling the plasma. That's the donut shape. The donut shape the plasma. That's the doughnut shape. The doughnut shape, exactly. That is being heated up at incredible temperatures. Exactly. Various ways of heating the gas become plasma and heating the plasma to really, really high

temperature. But are we heating it to the point where we're at the cusp of being able to use nuclear fusion and get nuclear fusion that then propel rockets through space much more quickly. The rocket is a plasma propulsion. You actually get rid of the plasma you make from the back of the rocket. You're not confining it with magnetic field.

So the plasma rockets don't use fusion. Not necessarily. They don't have to use fusion. But if you kind of, you know that in space we don't have to use fusion. Not necessarily. They don't have to use fusion, but if you kind of, you know that in space, we don't have any power or any, there is no gas station. The only thing we have is our sun sitting there and it's only going to give some amount of energy. There are rest stops with McDonald's.

So if you want to go far, you need energy and you need fusion. If you're going to go stay around with solar panels, you have enough energy to use locally. You could use that for just propulsion. I remembered reading, because I know enough to know that in any gas, at any temperature, not all particles are moving at the same speed.

Some are slow, some are fast. The temperature's the average speed that everybody's moving. All right, I remembered that there's some method where you can pick off the fastest moving particles and put them over here, and their average temperature is gonna be higher than where they came from.

Here we go, treat them special. That's what it is. You may put them in the slower group. But they're the fast class. Yeah, they're in a special class. Leave everybody else behind. Yeah, my God. And so you're cherry picking the fastest moving particles.

Is that a thing? Am I remembering that correctly? Conventionally, it's usually a collective heating. It's basically you have a true current, it's like current. Now, plasma also carry current. Current itself can heat. Really, it can actually, it's basically ohmic heating. That's one way of heating the plasma.

So that heats up internally. Yes. it's not hotter on the outside, you make it hot on the inside. That's one way, that's a conventional way of actually heating up the plasma, the first way to do it. Hello, I'm Vinky Broke Allen and I support Star Talk on Patreon. This is Star Talk with Nailed Grass Tyson. I spent 10 years at Princeton and this is long ago. Yeah. Like I'm an old man now. In my day, I... We didn't have electricity. She was, oh, she would just yell and someone would hear us.

So in my day at Princeton, every year there was talk of people saying we're almost there by producing more energy than we put in, which would then make it an energy source for the world, a very inexpensive energy source, using readily available ingredients like hydrogen, which you will find at your neighborhood water molecule. They would say, oh, it's just five years away.

And that was 30 years ago. So what's going on? You're almost there. Oh my God. No. So, wait, wait, wait, let's back up. So Princeton has a Tokamak, but Lawrence Livermore has a different configuration.

So, there are two approaches. One is just Tokamak. Actually, Princeton has a special Tokamak. It's called a spherical Tokamak, which is kind of, not like a donut, it's like a fat donut or a core, apple. How is that different than a standard donut? The nice thing is that it's more compact.

Oh, okay. So that's, and other differences, but the main thing is, exactly. It's a really puffy donut. Exactly, puffy. Yeah, you could say that, a puffy donut. It was created by a fluffinator. Yes.

I remember that, oh my God. A fluffinator, remember? I think so. So it's a tokamak I remember that. Oh my God. Fluffinator, remember? I think so. So it's a tokamak, but a spherical tokamak, and it's very special because of compactness and other things. And so by using magnetic field,

you actually confine the plasma. Okay, so there's that. So now let's go to Lawrence Livermore in Livermore, California. It's so there's that. So now let's go to Lawrence Livermore in Livermore, California. It's so called inertial confinement means that by shooting lasers and a very small, dense target, you get fusion. So our plasma at PPP at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab is not that dense, but we have very high temperature. And so there's something we call a little bit specific, something called loss on criteria,

which is basically the multiplication of the confinement time, how hot you get, your density. So each kind of- All that combined. All combined, and if it's larger than something, you say that, oh, I achieved fusion. So inertial confinement has, kind of a denser. So of all of those factors, is density

the most important thing that gets you to? The sun gets high density for free because you're in the center of the freaking sun. It's dense there. So they get free density. But what you're generating at PPVL is not as dense. So sort of like it's what I would get at Walmart versus Saks, like if I were buying a product.

It would be like the lower end. That's the first time Vultu stores have ever been in the same sentence. Ever. Wait, so you can have it dense but not hot, or hot but not dense, and some combination of those two will get you the fusion. Do we know the optimum point?

Do you know the optimum relationship there? Yes, we know the optimum is that you want to, first of all, fusion was achieved in around 1995. But I have to correct that. Fusion was achieved like in 1947. It was just uncontrolled, and we called it a bomb. Okay? At all times, she's referring to controlled fusion.

Exactly. Okay, now pick up the story, where you left off. Where we're safe. We got fusion. We got it. It's everywhere. That's we got fusion. We've done, we got fusion. We got it. It's everywhere. We got fusion.

Correct, exactly, right. The H-bomb, you know, uses the A-bomb as a trigger for it. That's the scale of this. Correct, exactly. The controlled fusion was done at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab in the device called TFDR, you know, test fusion reactor. It was obtained in...

Achieved. Achieved. Yes. It was, you know, we obtained fusion, it was achieved in the 90s. Here at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab and also at another experiment, Jet in Europe later. So and about 10 million joule energy was, you know,

or 10 megawatt, million watt power was obtained. So we've got fusion. The question is that. So just one joule per second is one watt? Yes, yes. Okay, so she's thinking joules in energy, but watts is a power. Watt is the correct one.

It's 10 megawatt, and actually the record is 17 megawatt later, so it's around that much. You kind of. But I have a question. You have this big fat donut. Yes. All right, and the whole thing is plasma. Yeah.

But if you hit the fusion threshold, does the whole thing undergo fusion? Because in Lawrence Livermore, they know if it's going to happen, it's going to happen in that little pocket that they created. Yeah, it's basically in the vessel, in the core of the vessel. So it's kind of your plasma, it's in the core.

It actually needs to finally touch the wall and that's where you actually get the energy. It's touching the magnetic field around. Actually there's real wall. It's magnetic field all around. It's made of dry wall like plasterboard. Yeah. We call it blanket.

That actually. But what forms the blanket in all seriousness? Like what creates the wall? It's a various solution for wall. You know, it could be tungsten. But does it come as a byproduct? Various material. It's a byproduct of what you know, it could be tungsten. But does it come as a byproduct? Various material, yeah. It's a byproduct of the way you're manipulating the plasma

a wall creates out of that. No. Actually, no, you actually put a physical, it's a physical wall. Oh, a physical wall. Yeah. So why is it only measured when it touches the wall? Because it's not measured,

it's actually the plasma heat is being measured in the core. Yes. And that's when you get really hot plasma. So what do you need the wall for? Because it has to be confined, the plasma needs to meet some boundary. We thought that was the magnetic field.

Right, isn't that the magnetic field? So the magnetic field is all around the torus, all around the donut. Okay. So the magnetic field. Oh, so the magnetic field gives it a shape. Yes, exactly, all around the donut. So the magnetic field. So the magnetic field gives it a shape. Yes, exactly, give it a shape. So you could say at all, you could think that you could put direct magnets around your vessel,

or you actually put coils that goes around your vessel. And then the wall, and then the plasma. Have these magnetic fields, we've all played with iron filings and magnets and you can see magnetic field lines and they form these loops, these toroidal loops, okay. I know that on the surface of the sun because it doesn't rotate as a solid object,

there are these magnetic fields in there that get stretched as the sun rotates its equator faster than other regions. And there are points where the magnetic fields snap. They break and then they reconnect. Does that happen in your space? Yes, it happens on the surface of the sun, exactly the way you said.

Sun actually, as you correctly mentioned, it's in a plasma state, also creates fusion energy, so a lot of energy in there. Another thing sun creates is magnetic fields. All the motions of the plasma there creates magnetic field. So I'm creating magnetic fields, I need to get rid of these magnetic fields somehow, these invisible field lines that I'm creating. Where does it go? It goes to the surface and it kind of goes up like loops.

And then the loops kind of, at some point, these invisible field lines, one go up, one go down, and then they snap, they kind of cancel each other, and then there's, we call it detachment, the whole loop kind of get away. And it's chaotic, right? I mean, it's sort of, it's not, it's sort of like a bunch of, well, it's not controlled,

it's like a bunch of five-year-olds in kindergarten on skittles, you can't control them. They're wild. On skittles. Oh, I can. But is it right? Yes or no. It could be places that is really chaotic, but also it could be likely collective, you know, ropes of magnetic field.

They come together, they kind of cancel each other magnetic field and then you get the reconnection site and then the whole thing like detached. The plasma and the magnetic field. That's how you know that physics do this, not astronomers, because the people who study that are called magneto-hydrodynamicists. Oh my God. That's just, that should not be a word.

No, that is one long business card. We'll fold that extra section. Yeah, this is your business card, it's like that. So let's get back to the energy and then I want to go to rockets. Yes. So if you're going to be useful to anybody, you can't just make energy under the ground

in Princeton, New Jersey. You got to, it's got to be, I don't want to call under the ground in Princeton, New Jersey. You gotta, it's gotta be, I don't wanna call it portable, but it's gotta be scalable. So you can move it to a town that can generate energy that has no radioactive byproducts, you can generate it 24-7, and you're just using hydrogen. Whose method will be better for this? The one, the inertial confinement from Lawrence Livermore or the Tokamak design

from Princeton and other places? We have to pursue all the matters. It's actually an object. Diplomatic cancer. Oh man. Wow. Man. I didn't know I was in Congress right now.

I know. That was what you say to members of Congress. But Senator, we need to pursue all the matters. Okay. America is great. And I like pie. members of Congress, but Senator, we need to pursue all methods. Okay. So all methods. America is great, and I like pie. And you even don't know about other methods. We call this some more innovative alternate method, but again, using magnetic field to

kind of confine plasma and get fusion energy. So all of them need super, but all of them need to get to some condition. And the condition is that you get more, you produce more energy than you put in. Otherwise, what's the point? What's the point, exactly. It's kind of the net gain that you kind of need to get. And we haven't got there engineering-wise.

Physics-wise, scientifically, maybe in some range we can say that, oh, we got energy from fusion. And as I said, this happened also in the 90s, you know, at PPPF. Yeah, there was a little bit of an overstatement about the Livermore experiment, because that one had net extra energy from the experiment. And so this was a, it was championed.

But the extra energy they got was relative to the energy that they put in in this little spot. It didn't add up, the whole system that made the thing a thing to begin with. Right, right. So it wasn't the total energy budget of the experiment, it was just the energy budget of the, of the Vetsal. Local, around the target, yeah.

On the target. And it had to be attached to that target or near that target to be in that. Yeah, and that's how they make the measurements. So, so the, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, if you're gonna scale that, presumably you get some good engineers in there to say, how do we make this littler,

and you make this more efficient, and that, and then you just run the energy out the other side. You actually need to also make better lasers, more efficient lasers, because the efficiency of it is not too great. Right, because you have to put energy in the lasers to make the energy. Yeah, but the lasers are going to help you

to get the vision. So you need engineers. Exactly, so engineering net gain is not too high in that experiment. But the physics gain was good. But the physics gain was good. And also the physics gain is also for magnetic confinement, we have good gain before and we are actually moving toward it with various configuration.

Okay. In all of this, the idea of excited particles, and where does that fit into all of this, and sort of how do you calm down an excited particle, jazz music, I don't know, candles, scented candles, like how do you? You're asking her how does she cool down the plasma? Is that what you're asking?

In a sense, right? Because the whole plasma is excited particles. Right, but there are specific things that you do to control is excited particles. Right, but there are specific things that you do to control the excited particles. Oh yes, yes, I think that you just want the whole hot, you know, plasma confined, controlled, in a, and self-heated, because it kind of interestingly, if it gets to some temperature, it can kind of,

on its own, can get can get you know heated the plasma for a long long time and produce a lot of energy and that is fusion a system or reactor and and we have made a lot of progress in each you know part of it. But as usual we're not there yet. So how many how many years from now can I plug in my? Wall and the energy on the other side of that plug is fusion. That's so I mean, you know that Five years away, then I told you okay. We're listening go on. You know that you didn't hear that you didn't hear I mean, you know that like diesel engines are lots of you know Advancement excuse me senator senator. Could I have the witness answer the question, please? I mean, you know that like diesel engines are lots of, you know, advancement.

Excuse me, Senator. Senator, could I have the witness answer the question, please? Directly. She's start- she mentioned diesel engines that is not on the table right now. So it all takes decades, yes? And fusion is- we are- it's a new physics frontiers, the whole plasma physics. When an experiment is run, you kind of get into the new regime. Because when you're doing actual research, you're on a frontier.

Right. You're stepping where no one has stepped before, so you're going to discover new things. Exactly. And you're going to discover hurdles that you could not have predicted, seriously, right? Yes, exactly. So, I mean, that's the issue, right?

Yes, you get into new regime, you discover new things and in fact actually the whole rocket system, it was a discovery in a fusion system. Let's pivot to that right now, because it's still decades away before she's going to make my electricity. All right. Miss Easy Bake Oven over here.

Tranked stuff up when she was 10, but she can't. All right. But. Commercially, you know, viable. Commercially viable, I mean, you know. But everyone knows. We make fusion in a laboratory. Everyone knows how important that is.

Yeah. Culturally. Do we have any practical application of fusion right now? In any capacity? Bombs. Other than bombs. In a shorter time scale, we do not have to have a larger scale fusion system to kind of give electricity to a whole city.

We could have compact design for taking, you know, as long as we've had rockets, we've been using what we call chemical fuels, which means they're molecules that have energy contained within them, and you break apart the molecule, the energy escapes, and that is our energy source. And so that has not advanced in 100 years. Because you scientists are lazy. You're not really trying. We use different chemicals,

or we have solid rocket boosters, that's a different propulsion chemical than the big tank. But essentially the same concept. It's the same concept. And so tell me about plasma rockets, because there's a lot written about it. And we're not even talking about fusion yet, we're just keeping in your plasma universe.

Yes. Tell me. Plasma propulsion is basically we are talking about the next generation of rockets, specifically plasma rockets. And they're highly efficient, yes? Yes, they are highly efficient. In terms of, so there are several things about them, is that the exhaust velocity is really high.

What's hard for people to see, just being Earth surface dwellers, because you say, if I want to go forward, I just have to run or step on the gas. You're doing that at the expense of Earth beneath your feet. So the only reason why you can go forward is because Earth is, you're putting friction between your foot on the Earth,

and you're changing the rotation of the Earth slightly. You're pushing back on it. You have something to push back on. Right, so this is the Earth. In space, you got nothing to push back on. So the only way you can change your speed is to give something up. And what are we giving up?

Mass. Take it from there. Yes, you take it, and in this case it's just you create the plasma or plasmoid through the process of like solar flares, magnetic reconnection, and you detach these, continuously detach these plasma from the back of the rocket and at high velocity.

And the back end. Because it's at high temperature. At high temperature you get high speed. Yes, high speed, and the rocket is being propelled forward. And it's not, it doesn't have to be high temperature. The interesting about the magnetic reconnection is that magnetic energy is being converted

to kinetic energy. So it's all magnetic, yes, it's like the solar. Doesn't have to be. So this is like, you want to get from point A to point B with this, you snap your fingers, you're there. It's like badass. No, no, no, It's like badass Google Maps. No, no, it's different because the particle comes out the back and the rocket recoils

from it, but by how much? It's efficient, but what's the mass? The mass is not too much. So there are various like. It's a tiny mass at high speed. Yes, high mass. And I have a high mass thing on the other side that can only then go forward at low speed.

Yes, yes. Right, so how am I gonna get anywhere? You're going to get anywhere by kind of having high thrust, high force. And that is through again, exhaust velocity, you get it. And it's constantly, you're kind of pushing it, it's like a constant acceleration, you get somewhere, in a space, it's different from you.

Right, so you wouldn't use plasma rockets to launch. No, no, no, no. Because they don't have that much, you can't send out that much mass, because anytime you see a rocket, this is coming out. This comes out and it goes the other way. You're going to use rocket fuel to get it there. To get it there, and then through empty space.

So we're talking about like some crazy, is this sort of like a massive Wi-Fi spot that's like got incredible power? Is that what this plasma thing, where we're going with it? Well, I think from what I've read, but you're in the middle of it, so just correct me if I'm wrong. When you're in free space, in open space, and then you turn on your plasma rocket,

it's like one particle at a time. And so you slowly accelerate, but acceleration is a constant, in this case, increase in your velocity. There's resistance coming on the rock. There's no resistance out there, it's a recoil, right? But since it's constant, and you do it for a long time, you can reach very high speeds.

Exactly. How fast can you go? So based on the results that we have, and we are actually building this tabletop prototype at the Meshom Plasma. In your basement? No, no. Tabletop prototype. We're building it. I'm using my oven.

At the lab, you're building it. You can get to 100, 500 kilometer per second. So it's still... So you can, that 100, 500 kilometer per second. So it's still. So you can, that rocket can move at that speed. Could you have a sunroof on the rocket at that speed, or would that be viable? A sunroof to see, just to. You know, just looking up.

Well, what is up? Yeah, that's true. But you need to get to that speed, you know. If you go to the moon, you don't need that much of a speed. And you could do it with this plasmoid rocket. You can do, you know, small payloads in three weeks or something with this plasma rocket. And it's not that this is sci-fi, no.

This is actually for real, because we do plasma propulsion with just electric fields. Now we are doing magnetic, using electromagnetic field. Using magnetic connection. Wait, but three weeks is a long time. Astronauts, Apollo, they got there in three days. But we are doing the fast, you know, it's efficient. Efficient.

It's efficient, it means that you go back and forth. It's efficient, it means that you go back and forth. It's not expensive. The fuel, it's flexible. You could use really hydrogen, you know, the one that we want to use for fusion. You use really light atoms, so it's efficient. So it's fuel, flexible, and it's efficient. Okay, so you would use this, this would be the-

It's like a nice car, yes? This would be the delivery vessel for supplies. Exactly. Because you can just plan ahead, send it three weeks in advance, and then we get there quickly, and supplies are very heavy, right? But you'll get there.

But wait, we're using this plasma technology to get the supplies there? Well, I think the point is, because you're just sending these very low mass particles, though they're traveling high speeds, the recoil is small but real and measurable and it accumulates. So, if we were to fly humans with one of these rockets,

it would only make sense if we were going to like Pluto or something or to the nearest star. Yeah, for then you need to use this plasma propulsion, you need nuclear energy, fusion, or some kind of a battery to kind of give you both force that rust, yet you need like the, like the chemi. If you're approaching a planet's atmosphere, can you control?

Yes, because. Otherwise are you just driving that rocket right through the center of that? Well that's a big problem in space travel, because if you can accelerate, and you want to land somewhere, you have to. You can't just pull up like a rocket. Right, right, right, there's no, right, right.

So what you have to do is like, you know, flip the ship around and then have it, and have it send out particles the other way. So then it's a negative acceleration, a deceleration. And so that eats up some of your plan. But might we use this going to Mars, do you think? Yes, yes, because of the, again, it's because of efficiency. You could use chemical rockets.

In 10 years. No! You could use chemical rockets. In 10 years. To go there once if you use all the resources you have. But you really need plasma propulsion for getting to the Mars. You also need the energy for that. And that's what the compact fusion, compact system come. That's why we work on that. Okay, so the plasma rocket is not the same thing as a plasma fusion rocket,

because the fusion is just a whole other source of energy. Yeah, so the plasma rocket, the energy can come from just some solar panels, because for example, for the moon, we have the sun sitting there, so we can get, use know, use the solar panels to get the power. But that can't be the level of,

compared to plasma fusion, getting through solar panels cannot give you the same level of energy. It's enough from the lower. I want more than enough. I want the best. I'm an American. And that's how we do this in America.

But we still, we don't even have that. This is like a FedEx going to moon, a coming back, yes? That's what we're talking about, very efficiently. And you don't need that much of a power to do that. Like 500 kilowatts is enough. You don't need millions of. Right, so they get there faster, but the guy still leaves the package

like 20 feet from your door and you have to walk out in your underwear. I'm gonna porch pirates, steal it. Right, no. Nothing changes with you scientists. You don't really advance us. Well, you walk out in your underwear to get your packages. Okay, I will porch you next time.

My neighbors requested that. Yes. Wait, so I just want to settle my understanding on this. Yes. When you have a plasma, you have moving particles, you can send them out the back and you recoil. Yeah. And the acceleration is slow,

but it's steady and it accumulates. Yes. Okay. So, if you have solar panels, the solar panel is not itself a propulsion mechanism, but it's a source of energy. Yes. And you can channel that energy back into your plasma,

and keep the plasma going, as long as we're close enough to the sun. Exactly. Okay. Now you're really far from the sun, you still need an energy source. And what would that energy source be if you can't use solar panels anymore, because the sun is too dim? Would that be the fusion? The energy source. And what would that energy source be if you can't use solar panels anymore

because the sun is too dim? Would that be the fusion? The energy source, yes. It's fusion, it has to be non-chemical. Yes, and non-chemical. So your fusion source of energy would still be heating the plasma. It's still a plasma rocket.

Basically, yes, the fusion. I had not appreciated that. It's still a plasma rocket. Basically, yes, the fusion. I had not appreciated that. It's still a plasma rocket. Exactly, exactly. It's still a plasma rocket because your magnets, you know, first of all you can use several, but you still have to power your rocket.

And the source of power, it could be solar panel, or it could be non-chemical fusion energy. This is one thing. Plus there's plenty of hydrogen gas in the universe. Yes. So you can just scoop it up, put it in. So there are fill-in stations in the universe. I told you.

Yeah. Yeah. When it's going through space, is the plasma sort of morphing and changing and do you have to account for that? I mean, because it can survive, my understanding is it can survive plasmids in various states, right?

I would imagine you have not been able to document every state that it can survive in, right? It's an ever evolving science. So it's just that basically you need, the fuel here is like hydrogen, helium. You have the fuel, you can actually use the local resources in a space for the fuel. So that's one of the-

And that's what calls it ISRU, in situ resource utilization. Which is a terrible acronym. But yeah, ISRU, that's the big thing. Because then you don't have to haul everything with you. Exactly, so that's why we call it efficient, basically, it's fuel flexibility. It's self-contained.

And it doesn't have to be helium, it could be hydrogen, any kind. And it doesn't have to be argon, because some of the electric propulsion, your gas needs to be heavy. Argon, don't even get me started with argon. That's a ridiculous waste of time. But why argon, why not krypton or?

All of them, it could be any kind of gas that you can. I told her she was a superhero. I was gonna say. She's gonna use krypton? I was gonna say. I told you, I got her to admit it. I do feel like I'm weak around here. I feel.

Yeah. Shh. So there's, it can't exist on its own. It needs some other source of energy. But what can't exist? The plasma. The plasma then you kind of, you draw some, you create it, you ionize it, you create the plasma, yes? So that's the specific, you have to read the paper

and the patent to actually see, you see how the plasma is created from this fuel, local fuel, and then you get the plasma, but as soon as you create the plasma, you get rid of it from the back of your rocket by the process of magnetic reconnection. And you've gotta lose some of your mass. Right, yes, exactly.

Every time you go, you're gonna go anywhere. But that's what I was saying, really, process of magnetic reconnection. And you've got to lose some of your mass. Right. Every time you go and go anywhere. But that's what I was saying earlier, magnetic reconnection is, it's, plasmoids get created, they're not very unstable, but then become over time unstable and decay. Magnetic reconnection, sort of this constant instability

in how you control that, and are you still working on being able to control that? So for rockets, for plasma propulsion, we are not confining anything. So we don't, basically we don't care about stability because in a fusion device you can find plasma you don't want it to go unstable. For a rocket you just make the plasma, you use the magnetic field. And then you just pollute space. Exactly, exactly, exactly. You get rid of it and then you make new plasma and get rid of it. And then the rocket just gradually goes in the direction you want it to go. And that's why you need 1-800-GUT-JUNK for space, because you're just putting garbage into space.

But that attitude, I understand. But the plasma is not really a junk, because as I said, 99% of our observable universe is plasma. It's basically some charged particles you have in a space that you always have low density plasma everywhere in space. She was good, she said the observable universe. Because we don't see the dark matter. We don't know what the hell that is, but it's not plasma. So she got that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah. So you could say that is... Why aren't you altering with these... There's plasma coming out of the back of a rocket. Aren't you altering space in a way by putting these particles into space? If space is 99% plasma to begin with, it's just... It doesn't care. It's like putting more water this? It's just. It doesn't care.

It's like putting more water in a pool. Yeah, it doesn't care. It's like putting more hair gel in my hair. It's a state of matter. Yeah, we are floating in plasma in the universe anyway, so you can make some little plasma and get rid of it, go somewhere. Universe one mind.

Yeah, universe one mind, yes. So Fatima, I gotta land this plane. Yes.'s, I want straight answers. You're in Congress now. Professor Abrahami, how soon are we from having plasma energy generating centers in every city? We are close actually. It's a, it's a five. Five years? I would say five to 10 years. Okay, January, 23rd, 2030, you're gonna be right there. We got a number? We got a, we got a, we got a, we got a, we got a, we got a. So in terms of that, but that is. We'll drag you back in here.

Yes, but that's a scientific net gain, I said. Okay. If you want to put it on the, you know, electricity. Engineers is good. I'm not worried about the engineers. They come through when you need them. Okay, that's first. Second, when will we have rockets with humans in them

that will use plasma propulsion? And will the first trip to Mars use it? The first trip I don't know because it's possible that if you put, if all the resources are put there, you could get there once with chemical propulsion. But again, to have a sustainable kind of travel, so you need plasma propulsion. Does NASA have a group working on plasma propulsion?

Or do they call you up to get there? What do we do next, Fatima? Yes, give me more funding. Does NASA have a group working on plasma propulsion? Or do they call you up to get there? What do we do next? Tracti- Yes, give me more funding. Yes, yes. Oh, there you go. I knew she'd be begging for money at some point.

But can a human travel that fast under, isn't that an issue, plasma propulsion? I mean, is it- It's a slow acceleration. It's a slower acceleration. Your face is not gonna do this. It's not, no, no, no, is it still... It's a slower acceleration. It's a slower acceleration. Your face is not going to do this. It's not, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not like, you know. I wish I just wanted to get some of the lines out of my face. It seems like a really... Your high acceleration would be a good... A really fun way to get some plastic surgery. Could I say that actually maybe we look at more closer time, you know, places to go. And I think moon could be, as I said, it could be just plasma propulsion.

You don't need fusion. What are we gonna do with the moon? We've been to the moon. What am I gonna see at the moon? Resources, there's all sorts of- I got moon rocks in my top drawer, in my drawer. Everybody's gonna love that. Actually, one of the way to actually create fusion energy,

it's something is called called aneutronic, means that you kind of, the other, you use deuterium, helium, you know, to create energy, and you don't produce neutrons, so. That's just the PP chain in the center of the sun. There's no loose neutrons coming out of that. Yes, exactly. Right, because neutrons are bad, because they come out and neutrons coming out of that. Yes, exactly. Right, because neutrons are bad,

because they come out and they'll, nothing stops them. Yes. They don't have a charge. They're very pushy. Their advantage is they don't have to push. The other particles don't even know they're there. Am I right?

Yes, yes, yes. With neutrons? Yes, exactly. It's like dark matter. Neutrons, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a fun reaction in the sun. It's called the PP chain, proton-proton chain. Exactly.

It uses deuterium and tritium. No, I don't remember tritium, but we have helium-3 is in there. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Helium-3, deuterium. So you have also fuel for also fusion. So there are things there. And you want to make some steps for the next generation,

non-chemical propulsion. You first make some good step progress, and then gradually going further, you use fusion energy to go there. So in this process, you guys seem fairly lazy. You're taking your time, five years. Are you using, in all seriousness, you guys seem fairly lazy. You've taken your time, five years. Are you using, in all seriousness, are you using, how does AI factor into any of your work, or will it,

in terms of the advancements you're trying to make? It's a fantastic question. It's there, we use it. Can you just say that again? Fantastic question. I didn't hear it, I didn't hear her say that. Fantastic. Actually, she is AI, right here. I didn't hear it. She is AI. She doesn't really exist. Did you think she was real? My finger goes right through her leg. It's so weird. I don't want to say

anything. I think she's been around the plasma too much. She is plasma. I'm sitting next to a plasma. Don't tell him. Yeah. Yes, I think, yes, definitely. Computers. First of all, most of the progress we made in plasma physics and fusion

have always been together. Experiments and advanced computation work together to make discoveries and also any kind of achievement, it has to be together. Well, I think we kind of need to wrap this up. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Unfortunately, this is fascinating.

Well Fatima, give me some words for the future. Be patient in terms of. Okay, we're fine. Okay, I'm sorry I asked. It's not, the answer is like this, well how do you define future? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me say, for the future is that, and cross-pollination of various types of, you know, group working on various types of plasma or types of devices, fusion experiments, progress happens like that. So it's just, it's also new physics. We learn every day in every regime of plasmas, we learn new things and we apply it like this, you know, rocket thruster. We apply it for

other applications. What we learn in fusion, we also apply it for other applications. What we learn in fusion, we also apply it for other applications. And so it's just a continuous work. It's an ongoing process. It's a continuous work. So Fatima, typically at the end of our sessions, I offer the viewer a cosmic perspective on the topic of the day. but you so beautifully summarized the plight of the scientists, the engineer, society, funding sources, that's any and all

that I would have said in my cosmic perspective. So thanks for making my job just a little easier today. Good to have you, man. Always great to be here. I always learn a lot. Good luck, you need some of that sometimes, right? Yes, yes, yes. When you're messing with plasma.

Exactly. And one day you'll give us a tour of your basement. Exactly, exactly. And listen, whatever you do. I'm welcome, both of you. Thank you. Well, and keep up your vague answers. Now, it was really interesting, very fascinating.

This has been Star Talk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, reporting from my office at the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. As always, looking up.