StarTalk Radio - The Science of Family Guy with Seth MacFarlane

Episode Date: November 20, 2015

Neil Tyson and his friend Seth MacFarlane delve into the science of “Family Guy”, from the Big Bang to the multiverse. Chuck Nice and Charles Liu join Neil in studio, Simon Singh calls in about math in “The Simpsons”, and Bill Nye gets super-heroic. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to the Hall of the Universe of the American Museum of Natural History. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And tonight, we're going to talk about the science of Family Guy. Family Guy is an animated series on television, one of the funniest, most successful series ever, and it is loaded with pop science. Its creator, Seth MacFarlane, came through New York, visited me in my office, and I was not going to let that go by without nabbing a StarTalk interview. So let's do this.

I can't do this alone. I never can do this alone. I went out and reached and found Chuck Nice. Chuck, welcome back to StarTalk. Always a pleasure. How are you? Excellent, man. How you doing? I'm doing really well. Yeah?

Glad you reached out. So thanks for coming back. And my friend and colleague, Charles Liu, professor of physics and astronomy at the College of Staten Island of the City University of New York. Neil, my heart overflows with joy that I'm here with you today.

If you have to say that, it meant you didn't otherwise emote it. Okay. There you go. Hi, Neil. I finally know now what an overflowing heart looks like. So we're going to find out, you know, you wouldn't expect animation to be filled with science. And it doesn't come out of nowhere.

It's got to come from people who think about it, care about it. So it would be among the writers. It would have to be among the creators. And Family Guy, if you're unfamiliar with it, some of its interesting features is that it has a diabolical infant. Stewie. Stewie. Diabolical.

Brilliant, diabolical infant. Still in diapers. But is the smartest character on the program. And then there's a talking dog. Brian. Brian. So it's a very realistic show. And so it's infused with science.

In many ways. Not every show. But when it's there, they go there. And you want some evidence of this? I'm just... Just a little bit. Do you know what the Big Bang Theory is? Yeah, the theory that the universe started with a massive outward explosion

from a singularity of infinite mass and infinite density. Okay. They went there. They went there. They really went went there. They went there. They really went there. They so went there. But it wasn't infinite mass back then. Infinite density, perhaps, but not infinite mass.

So he's complaining about an error in their explication of the Big Bang, but not worried that the dog is talking, right? Or that a baby figured that out. So what I wanted to know was, where does this science come from? From what thing does it emanate? Is it Seth MacFarlane's writers?

Is it him? Is it, is he a fanboy, but this is the only way he gets to show it? I just came out and had to ask him, where does this come from? Let's check it out. Seth, I called you into my office. Yes.

I got to talk to you. Because you want me to help you clean up. I clean up the office. I got to, at some point, I had to find you and talk to you about the science in Family Guy. Yeah, yeah. You just have to watch a few shows, and it's in there. It's in there deep.

When I was a kid, I was in a church choir. I went to Sunday school, and I went to regular school. And my parents believed in exposing me to everything and letting me figure it out for myself. And eventually I said, oh, well, these guys are, you know, making these assertions and these guys are making these assertions. But these guys are backing it up with something. These guys are offering evidence. And so that seems a little more trustworthy.

And so I was kind of drawn to science because it seemed that. You arrived there derived from your own curiosity. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I actually wasn't a great science student in school. I think you don't... It's not that... You don't have to be.

You just have to enjoy it. Yeah. Whether or not you're good at it. And people try to equate the two, but I don't think that's a prerequisite. Yeah. And then, you know, obviously I discovered the original Cosmos and Carl Sagan and... At the time you saw the original Cosmos,

did you have any idea that you would one day be executive producer on the next Cosmos? Didn't occur to me. Didn't occur to me. It was not something that ever crossed my mind. During your early flatulence humor with Peter Griffin, you're not thinking, I'm going to executive produce Cosmos one day.

That was wonderful. Yeah, so Seth MacFarlane, so he's a creative family guy, which started as like a college project at Rhode Island School of Design. And also he's the creator of TED 1 and 2. And many people don't otherwise know, or it's hard for them to imagine, that he was co-executive producer of Cosmos,

a space-time odyssey. What Seth was saying there is just a perfect example of how we should approach life and knowledge in general. Fart jokes? Fart jokes. There is a scientific paper written by someone at the University of Michigan that claims that farts make everything funnier.

Why do you know this? Wait, how did you? And by the way, that's wrong. Because I've been to dinner with some people. Well, but look, Seth, as he described in that, understands the difference between scientific and non-scientific knowledge because he was exposed to it and he uses it all. Both the scientific part and the non-scientific artistic part.

It's the best way to live life. Well, here's his transition from infusing his creativity with science and becoming executive producer of Cosmos. I met him for the first time at a new opening of a branch of the National Academy of Sciences, a rather kind of stuffy organization who realized that we got to get science out there. Otherwise, we're going, you know, science is not going to serve the country the way it should. How do we get science out there? Let's partner with Hollywood. So they opened an actual office with actual people who have actual salaries in Los Angeles.

And it's called the Science and Entertainment Exchange. And I was at the kickoff meeting. And there's Seth MacFarlane. He's right there. And I knew about Family Guy. I said, please, it's an honor to meet you. He said, oh, let's exchange numbers and we'll do lunch. It's like, yeah, right.

This is Hollywood. No, no, that'll never happen ever. You're right, because he said the same thing to me. I haven't heard from him since. He hasn't called me yet. So we exchanged numbers, and, you know, a few months later, there's a phone call. And he said, Neil, I'm in town.

Like, let's do lunch. It actually happened. And I said, it was like, okay. I didn't tell him I had to, like, move 20 things on my calendar. I said, yeah, I's do lunch. It actually happened. And I said, I was like, okay. I didn't tell him I had to like move 20 things on my calendar. I said, yeah, I'm wide open. But I had to like seriously move this stuff around. And so we had lunch. And I was ready to talk about whatever.

But it was really different from what I thought would happen. Let's check out. You spent the whole lunch asking me informed questions about cosmology. Well, how long ago was the Big Bang, and what was the temperature back then? And there's a signature of the Big Bang afterwards. Can you describe more about that? And this is a fully, it's like you were a cosmology student, and these are like office hours that you were tightening up some of the information you had already researched, okay?

So I said, wow, that was kind of interesting, Lunch. So he's really getting into this. So six months later, all this information is contained within an episode where Stewie goes back to the Big Bang. You're saying I owe you money. No! I was basically like going to lunch with a doctor and saying,

hey, can you check me for, you know, hernia? I did that too, as I recall, so sorry. I was charmed. That's what this is all about, this pretense of an interview. There's no StarTalk. This is just your very diplomatic way of... The door is now locked. We're ready. And I got an entire, like, card at the end, the card of credit,

was science consultant Neil deGrasse Tyson. Did that help or hurt? No, I was charmed that, remember, as an educator, it's one of my personal missions to stimulate curiosity in people so that I don't have to keep educating them. They can educate themselves. That's the world you want to be in. Absolutely.

Right, right, right. And so for you to come to me with that level of curiosity, it wouldn't matter what you used it for. This is good. This is a good thing, all right? It is good. Wow, I learned two things from that clip. What's that?

One, Seth MacFarlane ripped you off. And two, you want people to stop being lazy and learn something. Learn your own damn stuff. Learn your own damn stuff. It's a great example, again, why science shows up in artistic works. One, science inspires art. Two, science is inherently funny. See what you just did?

See the rest of my case. Charles, when you said science is inherently funny, nobody, there was like not a peep in the audience. Sorry. Farts. Sorry. Now that was funny. There you go. Well, so let's, I have the clip that he used where they went back to the Big Bang.

So let's see how he took all this lunch information and turned it into product. Nice. Check it out. Stewie, I know you've been going back in time to embarrass me. Oh, what? Come on. Oh, okay, then where are you going now? Well, I have a very important mission.

Uh-huh. Let me see that panel. No, no, don't touch that. Come on, let me see that. Move out of the way. You can't. I'm not going to let you do this. Don't you just touch my boob. I'm going to tell Mom. What happened?

Where are we? I don't know. It's like... We're not anywhere. Stewie, what the hell did your machine do? Just calm down, calm down, Brian. I've got the return pad. All right, step on.

What happened? Good Lord! This is impossible! What? Well, the return pad works by first locking onto our coordinates along the curve of the space-time continuum. But it can't. Why not? Well, the only explanation is... We've somehow been transported outside the space-time continuum. But it can't. Why not? Well, the only explanation is, we've somehow been transported outside the space-time

continuum. See, I told you science is funny. As told by Seth McFarlane. Yes, indeed. Right, right. And he's the proper delivery. That's right. Buchako, is that right? Yes, exactly. So, Charles, I assume, as I do, you celebrate this kind of fact. Oh, it's wonderful. We have to understand, as scientists, we are not keepers of some secret

formula that no one else is privy to, and thus that makes us superior human beings. Well, we are our conduits. We have the privilege of learning cool stuff, and then the greater privilege of sharing it with people. See, that's your mistake. You share the stuff that you learn instead of elevating yourself to godlike status to people who are stupid. Well, you know, the ancient... Chuck, that rolled off your mouth way too smoothly.

See, you can tell I've been thinking about it. How can I become a god? Yeah, now I'm a little worried about you, Chuck. When StarTalk returns, more of my interview with Seth MacFarlane discussing the science of Family Guy. We're back. StarTalk. The American Museum of Natural History. Chuck Nice, Charles Liu.

Always great to have you guys. We're talking about science in animation, science and family guy, featuring my interview with Seth McFarlane. The guy's a crazy genius. That is true. In many dimensions. Who can mix art and science together, knowing the difference between the two, and effectively, too. science together, knowing the difference between the two, and effectively, too. Yeah, so with shows as popular as Family Guy, there's some obligation to wield that power with responsibility, would you say?

Like Spider-Man. Everybody gets one. Yeah, well, no, because you're reaching such a massive audience, it would behoove you to bring them some real information. But he doesn't mind being either offensive or politically incorrect in so doing. But he can use that as a vehicle to convey some other point. Yes. Shock you into an exposure to something he thinks you ought to know about. Well, that's comedy.

I mean, you know, comedy works the same way. Oh. You know, you say things that people see as offensive, but really what's underneath is the message that you're trying to convey. Well, in this next clip, he did exactly that. One of my favorite Family Guy clips. We now return to Carl Sagan's Cosmos, edited for Rednecks. I'm Carl Sagan.

Just how old is our planet? Scientists believe it's four b- Hundreds and hundreds of years old. Scientists have determined that the universe was created by a- God. Big bang. If you look at the bones of a Jesus, Cinesaurus Rex,

it's clear by the use of carbon dating that Mountain Dew is the best soda ever made. I knew you were going to pick that one, Neil. How did I know you were going to pick that one? So that's being extremely politically incorrect to make a whole other point. And so comedy can do that. And he's mixing a little bit of science because he's referencing the original Cosmos from 1980.

Which is very cool. And what's even more cool is I believe I heard the word Jesusaurus in there. Jesusaurus. Well, I have Seth MacFarley in my office. I had to ask him directly about that Carl Saganic click. Let's check it out. Was that you voicing Carl? That was me doing Carl.

Yeah, me hearing little Carl. That was me doing Carl Sagan. It's Carl Sagan. And he gave a little turtleneck, so yeah. What we're looking at is the fossil of a Jesus, Sorus Rex. So they dubbed over. Exactly. They dubbed over. In the beginning, there was the big God.

Big bang. Yeah. So that, I mean, I was on the floor. So it meant you knew Cosmos, you cared about Carl Sagan, you cared about sort of scientific truths, of course. And that didn't have to be in there. It's a freaking cartoon, you know, but it was there. And so there were statements being made.

And you must be aware of the sort of the political weight that you're voting in these scenes, right? Yeah, that's difficult, I think, for both of us to walk that line because you're servicing an audience, and at the same time you kind of have a duty to the truth. So, you know, it's that balance. At a certain point, I think the truth has to win out. You just have to say, you know what, truth has to win out. You just have to

say, you know what, I'm just going to tell it like it is. Yeah, tell it like it is. I mean, that's a... It takes some courage. It takes some courage. But in a sense, it's almost coming back full circle. Anime, animation, cartoons, years ago, decades ago, in the early days, Bambi, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, very much talked about uncomfortable social issues in ways that challenged the audience. Then somewhere along the line in America, they became the stuff of children. And they kind of lost that edge.

Except the NRA still hates the movie Bambi. That's okay. Yes. Really? Oh, for sure. I don't think they would love the movie Bambi. Great public relations for owning firearms. Exactly.

Bambi's mommy got shot. Well, listen, the only thing that can stop a bad deer from getting shot is a good deer with a gun. Well, when we come back, we're going to have more of my interview with Seth McFarlane talking about the science of Family Guy. And in that segment, we'll get to Cosmic Queries, where we'll take your questions on the science of Family Guy when we return. We're back at the American Museum of Natural History in the Hall of the Universe beneath the Hayden Sphere. That's my title. I'm director of the Hayden Planetarium. Yes, you are. I got keys to the universe. Yes, you do.

That's just cool. So, we're talking about animation here. And some of the earliest concepts of animation, to the universe. Yes, you do. That's just cool. So, we're talking about animation here. Yes. And some of the earliest concepts of animation, there's a drawing on an urn in Iran where it shows several images that in sequence is a... Moving animal.

Yeah, it's a leaping animal. So, we've been thinking about this. This has been the first movie 5,200 years ago. And I'm sure that before that, there is a piece of pottery with some porn on it. Because that's the first thing that people go to whenever any new technology is made. Reproduction is a powerful motivation.

Absolutely. Yeah, that kind of motion science went on later in photography when people took stop motion of numerous pictures to try to see whether when a horse was running, it would actually have all of its feet off the ground at once, and the answer was it did, and it's gone since then. Nowadays, with movies, we can't even tell that there's separate frames. Right, so in fact, animation, film, this whole industry requires that you cannot resolve in time the images that are going by your eyes.

That's right. Your brain blurs them. So, now, there's some fun facts in here. For example, Charles, you must know about this. It's on the internet, and it's old. accent here. For example, Charles, you must know about this. It's on the internet and it's old. It was one of the first things sort of transferred into digital form was the physics of cartoons, cartoon physics, the cartoon laws of physics. And so, for example, one of them is if you're running off a cliff, you will not fall until you realize that you're no longer standing

on a cliff. That makes perfect sense. That's like the first law of physics. And there's a cliff, you will not fall until you realize that you're no longer standing on a cliff. That makes perfect sense. That's like the first law of physics. And there's a whole, there's like 20, there's a whole page of them. I'm sure there's got to be a law that if you see a very attractive woman, your eyes pop out of your head, very large, and then go back. And there's a honking sound too. Well, what is the famous ultimate rule?

You have to follow the laws of physics unless it's funnier not to? Yeah. So, now it's time for Cosmic Queries. Oh! Cosmic Queries. These are questions from our fan base. Yes.

And they're about the physics, the science family guy. to the extent that I can even know to answer this. If I don't know the answer, I'll just tell you. Right. Here we go. Our first question is from John Roberts of Denver, Colorado. And John asks, a time machine like Stewie's must also be a space machine or you land badly. How hard is it to tell where the Earth was in the past? This is a brilliant, perceptive question. Space and time. Yeah, exactly.

Because if I'm here in a time machine, and I want to go six hours into the future, and that's all I do, well, when I reappear six hours from now, Earth is farther along in its orbit. Earth has rotated six hours out of where I used to be. So you're not going to end up in this spot. I will not end up in this chair. So if you want a time machine, it better be a space-time machine. Because you've never been at a place unless it was at a time. Nor have you ever noticed a time unless you were at a place.

So the two are forever intertwined and one cannot think of one without the other without manipulating them both to achieve your goals. Sounds like a love story. I like it. Space and time are one. And we've known this intuitively.

Coming to the theater near you. intuitively. I'm into the theater. Near you. Da-na-na-na-na. Space and time. No, but we know it intuitively. When you cross the street, that's the same street the trucks are on. How come you don't get hit by a truck? Because you were in the same

place at different times. It's only when you're in the same place at the same time you get hit by the truck. Exactly. So we know this intuitively. That's only when you're in the same place at the same time you get hit by the truck. Exactly. All right. So we know this intuitively. That's all I'm saying. So Einstein formalized this in special theory of relativity, generalized it in the general theory of relativity. And so now it is built into our understanding of what you do in physics. So really any time machine has to be a space time machine. Otherwise you're going to be landing in the wrong place. Well, John Roberts, that was a brilliant question,

and the answer is, look both ways before you cross the street. When StarTalk comes back, we will learn how geeky the writers and other staff of Family Guy really are when we return. Woo!

Star Talk. We're back. We're picking up my interview with Seth MacFarlane. And if you've watched the show, you know they parody many movies, many TV shows. They parody actors. They parody all elements of pop culture. But in particular, they give a special attention to Star Wars and Star Trek. Yes.

And so I just had to ask him, what's up with that? There's the parody law, the whole Larry Flint thing. If you're commenting on something, I think it's Larry Flint. If you're commenting on something, I think it's Larry Flint. If you're commenting on something, if you're making a statement in some way. Criticism. You can pretty much utilize any character you want. You don't have to get permission.

And it also depends on if it's a brief thing. We were doing so many Star Wars gags that our lawyers said, you've got to call Lucas. And we thought, oh, that's it, we're done. And we called, and they were like, yeah, sure, do it, go for it. We love it. And so we made three whole episodes. Also, the parodies of Star Trek are in there.

One of them was Stewie inventing a particle transporter. Yes. This was interesting, because you got the entire cast, essentially, the lead cast of Star Trek Next Generation, to be characters in this, basically controlled by Stewie. Yeah, exactly.

And how did you get them all? It's fun? I think Patrick was sort of the key. Sir Patrick Stewart, yeah. Once he signed on, they were like, all right. To do silly lines. Maybe this isn't great.

Yeah, if he can do silly lines, no one else has an excuse. Right. Any competition to do Captain Kirk? Not really. Okay. You win that one. Yeah, yeah. They leave that up to me.

Can I hear some Captain Kirk? This is my chicken sandwich and coffee. Mr. Spock, I want these things off the ship. I don't care what it takes. I want them off the ship. I don't care what it takes. I want them off the ship. That's trouble with tribbles. I cannot hold my laughter any longer, Captain.

We actually have a clip of that episode. No. Where the entire cast of Star Trek Next Generation appears as voices on Family Guy. Let's check it out. appears as voices on Family Guy. Let's check it out. All right, let's try this again. It's them! I did it!

The cast of Star Trek The Next Generation is here to answer my questions! What the hell? Where am I? What's going on? Greetings, everyone. My name is Stewie Griffin. I've transported you all here against your will. I'm a huge fan and you're going to answer all my questions. But you're a baby. Yes, that's right, Denise Crosby. That was a warning. Please do not speak unless you're spoken to. Now, question number one. What's it like on the set? The show's been off the air for 15 years.

Although I will say it was an awful lot of fun. You know, when Patrick wasn't hogging the limelight. Oh, f*** you, Michael. 15 years later, you've still got that attitude. Oh, my God, I am already having a fantastic time. Ooh, hey, let's spend the day together. Hey, that sounds like fun. Ow!

Shut up, Will. Stop it, Patrick. You know, I think you should all be nicer to Wil Wheaton. The way I treat my colleagues... Wait, what? I said you ought to be nicer to Wil Wheaton. You mean Wil Wheaton? Yes, Wil Wheaton.

Why are you saying it like that? Well, I'm just saying you should be nicer to Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton seems like a nice guy. Say wheat. Wheat. Now, say Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton.

Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton. Wil Wheaton. Hey, did you hook up with Who Will Wheaton. Will Wheaton. Will Wheaton. Will Wheaton. Hey, did you hook up with Whoopi Goldberg on the show? All the time. Whoopi Goldberg was a recurring character. She was the bartender.

Ah, yes. The wise bartender on it. So they got all of those were the real voices of the entire cast. And Stewie designed the particle beam transporter. What kills me, though, is that he actually killed off one of the characters the same way that character was killed off in Star Trek. Really? Yes. I didn't get that bit. Season one,

Skin of Evil, Star Trek The Next Generation. Sorry. Denise Crosby as Tasha Yar tries to go past this pool of weird tar. The pool of weird tar blasts her and she just dies. But she comes back in the third season in a Star Trek Next Generation episode called Yesterday's Enterprise.

She winds up saving the future. Because of a space-time temporal rift, right? Yes. Yes, exactly. the future because of a space-time temporal rift right yes yes exactly you know i'm sure right now people are amazed that either one of us actually have a woman at home put her there they're both married with children by the way. We have had some. I mean, not with each other, but... When StarTalk returns,

we pick up my conversation with Seth MacFarlane, and we talk about why aliens have yet to visit us on Earth. Check it out when we get back. We're back on StarTalk. Chuck Nice, Charles Liu, friend and colleague from way back.

Great to have you guys on here. A combination of expertise. You know, this is rare right here. So we've been geeking out with Seth MacFarlane over the science of Family Guy and the brilliance and diabolical genius of Stewie the Baby. And it got to a point where we had a whole discussion about why Earth might not have yet been visited by aliens. Okay?

Yeah, we're just chewing fat right now. Yeah, let's find out how that went down. Was it Stephen Hawking went on record saying, I don't think we should be broadcasting our presence to the universe. Yeah, so it is true that you don't give your home address to other people of your own species who you've never met. Yet we're telegraphing our address to aliens. But that's because it's other humans. Isn't there something to the idea that, you know,

as we become more technologically advanced and more scientifically literate, we've also kind of become more moral. We're a little bit more high-minded. The moral arc. The moral arc. And would it not stand to reason that if— You want to extrapolate to the aliens.

If an alien race can figure out how to get here, they've obviously figured out a lot of that we haven't figured out, sorry, National Geographic. Would they not have reached the point where they would be so morally evolved that we needn't worry? That's helpful, and I'm wondering whether worms are thinking that about humans. Right, well that's the other side, yeah. Those humans, they're so evolved.

I wonder if they won't step on me. Look at you. You're doing James Woods in Contact. No. My hope is that they're so far beyond us that we are of no interest to them. Right. And so they don't even come visit. That's my best example for why they haven't, my best argument for why they haven't visited. Now, you haven't really treated aliens much in Family Guy.

Is that right? You know, the main reason that we haven't is that those two aliens on The Simpsons are so memorable and identifiable that, you know, you don't really want to try and compete with that. So that's the answer. He doesn't have aliens on Family Guy

because The Simpsons did it. Yes. Now, the Simpsons aliens, what are the names here? It's Kang and Kodos. And they're diabolical? Yes, well, you know. Wait, wait, wait. So how do I know who's who?

You know, Kang's the girl. I don't know. I have no idea how you tell them apart. Well, The Simpsons, it started in like 1989. It's the longest running and most successful sitcom of all time. Many of their writers have like advanced degrees in math and science. And so once again, we have this occasion where the animation universe is infused with the actual universe. And the series has hundreds of instances of this.

And so people are thinking, their writers are thinking about math. They're thinking about science. Oh, yes. It's infused. Okay. So this fact did not go unnoticed by others. Okay. In fact, we have here a book, a whole book called The Simpsons and Their Mathematical Secrets, written by Simon Singh.

So this is, people are getting into this. Oh, yeah. Maybe a little too much. We've got Simon standing by live on a video call right now. And we're going to talk to him about all these deep intersections of math and animation that he's thought about. Guys, can you put him up on the screen? Simon, welcome to StarTalk. Nice to talk to you.

Yes. And so we were just intrigued. We were talking about the math of The Simpsons. And we realized, like, you spent time and wrote a whole freaking book on it. And so what compelled you to do that? Well, the first book I'd ever written was a book called Fermat's Last Theorem. In America, it was called Fermat's Enigma. And it's all about the most notorious problem in the history of mathematics.

And I was watching The Simpsons one day. It was an episode called The Wizard of Evergreen Terrace, where Homer wants to become an inventor. And there in the background on the blackboard is an equation, and the equation relates to Fermat's Last Theorem. And there's also an equation that relates to the Higgs boson, funnily enough. But it was the Fermat's Last Theorem equation that jumped out at me. And so when you see Homer Simpson playing around with Fermat's Last Theorem, you realize there's somebody on the show that loves math. And I started digging a bit deeper. I started contacting the writers. And it turns out that many of the writers have very strong mathematical backgrounds,

people with degrees in math, master's degrees in math, PhDs in maths. One guy, Jeff Westbrook, was even a professor at Yale. So they love maths. They're not mathematicians anymore. They're comedy writers. But the way they express their ongoing love of maths is to hide these equations in the show. And it's not only that. You have a PhD in physics, correct? Yeah.

Yeah. So one of the episodes shows Homer Simpson about to fall into a black hole. Yeah. And in that episode, okay, there's tons of physics, but there's also tons of maths. There's allusions to Cartesian coordinates, Mersenne prime numbers. You've got narcissistic numbers. You've got Euler's identity. What's a narcissistic number?

Okay, the one that appears in The Simpsons, there's a scoreboard. And one of the numbers on the scoreboard is 8208. 8208. Now, 8208 has got four digits. So you raise each digit to the fourth power. So you have eight to the power four, plus two to the power four, plus 8 to the power 4 plus 2 to the power 4 plus 0 to the power 4 plus 8 to the power 4. Add all of that together, and you get back to 8208. So it's a number that regenerates itself from its own digits. It's kind of in love with itself, so they get called narcissistic numbers. And they're very, very rare, very, very special. And that's why they get to be in The Simpsons.

So would this be a way to infuse math back into our culture possibly make people a little more comfortable with it? I think the stuff in the show appeals to people who already like maths and so I think if you're a teenage kid it can be kind of daunting to know that you're not necessarily the coolest kid in the class and what I think the show says to those kids is it says look you know the writers of the Simpsons the writers of the Futurama they love math as much as you do. And they're pretty cool. So you should kind of really go on this ambition to be a mathematician or an engineer or a scientist.

I think that's the core thing behind it. But for me to write a book, I suppose what I am saying is that if you want to get interested in math and having Homer Simpson and Lisa hold your hand and take you to the mathematical landscape is kind of a gentle introduction to mathematics, yeah. It's encouraging to know that there's that much infusion of science and math, especially math, in the case of your book, in animated series. And this might signal sort of a new frontier that pop culture is going, where we have PhD scientists, physicists, and mathematicians participating in pop culture in such a deep way. So congratulations for this piquing your interest

and for calling it to all of our attention. Nice to talk to you. Simon, let's all thank Simon for coming on for this. All right, Simon. Thank you. So when we come back to StarTalk, we'll catch up with my friend Bill Nye the Science Guy, now a New York City resident.

Yes. And we'll see what next dispatch he has submitted. I know it'll be on the topic of animation, but we'll have to wait till we come back to find out what that'll be on StarTalk. Woo! But we'll have to wait till we come back to find out what that'll be on StarTalk. StarTalk. We are back talking about science and animation.

We've got my interview with Seth MacFarlane. And I'm loving it. I'm just loving, because that's what StarTalk is about, the intersection of science and pop culture. There's nothing more pop culture than TV animation. That's true. So we're there. And we, you know, talking to Simon Singh, who's writing a whole book on the mathematics of The Simpsons.

I mean, this is good stuff. And I got Bill Nye sending in a dispatch. Let's check it out. Wow. It's so realistic. The thing about animated characters and cartoons is they're so much like us. I admit some of them are a little odd looking, but deep down they're all human. They have fears, they fall in love, they have trouble communicating. And with the possible exception of Batman and the occasional girlfriend,

they've all got super powers. They can fly. I mean, how cool is that? When I was a kid, and you wanted to be a superhero, and you wanted to fly, all you needed was a towel for a cape. Just put one of these on. Clip it in place, and you're ready to go.

Oh. Oh. I'm okay. I'm okay. Bill is saying that imagination matters more than reality sometimes. Yeah. That's what he's saying. And there's no more fertile vessel to convey the imagination than animation.

True. Because you're not tied to reality. But I'm not tied to reality. That's got nothing to do with animation. But it's funny, not being tied to reality doesn't necessarily diminish the potency of that message you're delivering. Precisely. Quite so. That's what's, to me, most intriguing.

And there's a Family Guy clip where it's from the episode The Road to the Multiverse. Oh, that one. Yes. And, you know, the multiverse is a frontier idea in physics that maybe our universe is not the only one. And that there could be an infinite number of other universes. Literally infinite number of other universes. And so he bases an entire episode on this. The road to the multiverse.

And in it, it contains deep social commentary. Let's check it out. You ever heard of the multiverse theory, Brian? Well, of course I have, but I'm wondering if you have. Oh, my God, so transparent. Well, the theory states that there are an infinite number of universes coexisting with ours on parallel dimensional planes. Dimensional planes, right.

Don't do that. Don't repeat the last two words like you already kind of knew what I was talking about. You have no idea what I'm talking about. Now, in each of these alternate universes, the reality is different than our own. Sometimes only slightly, sometimes quite radically. The point is, every possible eventuality exists. Prepare yourself, Brian, and I'll show you. Where are we? This is Kohol, Brian. Same year, same time.

But in this universe, Christianity never existed, which means the dark ages of scientific repression never occurred, and thus humanity is a thousand years more advanced. Oh! He went there! So I came back to Seth to get him to comment on that

multiverse episode. Because that episode goes to many other kinds of universes. That was just one of them. We picked that one. I have to ask him about that. Let's find out what he says. This is present-day Quahog. Yeah, yeah.

But in a universe where, what was it? Where Christianity had never come to power. Christianity had never evolved into a major religion. And science then took hold a thousand years earlier. Because, right, the ancient Ionians knew much of the science that had to be rediscovered during the Renaissance. Yeah, a lot of rediscovery. But it was squelched for what, 1,000 years?

Essentially, essentially. And what I always wonder about that is, is that 1,000 years that we needed to morally evolve ourselves to be ready for the technology that we have? That implies we are morally ready for the technology that we have. It comes with that. Or would we have gotten there much sooner, both technologically and ethically? I said, I ask myself often in the timeline of history, subtract the dark ages, would we have landed on the moon in the year 1500?

Yeah. And is that even a conceivable thing? Right. the timeline of history, subtract the Dark Ages, would we have landed on the moon in the year 1500? Yeah, yeah. And is that even a conceivable thing? Right, right, right. In the year 1500, would we have landed on the moon? Now, a lot of other fields of science have to progress alongside it. Yeah, yeah. You need the chemistry, you need material science. Sure.

You need all of this. But in principle, 500 years, you know, you have the technology earlier, so you drive it. Right, right. But we would have gotten rid of slavery earlier, you know? How does that play out? Yeah, that's the question. Does that go hand in hand? Yeah, I don't know.

It seems to me, I mean, I got an art school degree, what do I know? It seems to me it would be more likely that it would have to go hand in hand. Because I think that with a greater knowledge of science goes a greater wisdom. When we start to figure out how things work, you can't help but be more rational. Lest you self-destruct for that ignorance. That's a potent argument for which I have no rebuttal. for that ignorance. That's a potent argument for which I have no rebuttal. So when I see these clips in my conversation with Seth,

I am, as I said, I am enchanted any time I see an artist reach for the fruits of science and massage it, blend it, weave it into their trade, into their craft. And in fact, I am convinced that science cannot deeply matter in our world until and unless it has been embraced by artists, because that becomes the true measure of science becoming mainstream. Without it, it's an edifice off to the side that people think they can just walk around or climb over or ignore or chuckle about how badly they did it in school. But when the science manifests all around them, even in the comedy of animated sitcoms.

People will recognize that science is with us. It is in us. It is around us. Science is life. You've been watching StarTalk. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and as always, I bid you to keep looking up.