Stay Tranquilo - What's Next AFTER 3 SUPER BOWLS?! Life After Sports ft. Devin McCourty

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

In the premiere of Life After Sports, former New England Patriots safety Devin McCourty opens up about the full scope of his 13-year NFL career — from being a late bloomer in high school football to becoming a first-round draft pick, team captain, and 3-time Super Bowl champion.In this episode, Devin discusses:- Being labeled a "special teams pick" on draft night- Growing up in a single-parent household after losing his father- Playing college and pro football with his twin brother, Jason- The emotional and professional impact of his final years in New England- The mindset shift required for post-NFL life and entering the media industry- How he found purpose off the field through philanthropy and @ProAthleteCommunity- This conversation goes beyond stats and highlights — it’s a real look at the personal challenges, family dynamics, and career transitions that define life before, during, and after the game.🎙️ Presented by @staytranquilo in collaboration with @proathletecommunity📺 Subscribe to Stay Tranquilo on YouTube for new episodes🎧 Available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Man, I'm going to shock the world. Like, my goal was to be a first or second round pick, and I would always say that to them, and they'd be like, this guy. I know what you're talking about? Always talking. And when I did it, I was just like, man, like, I wanted to do something like this, and I did it.

Like, I finally arrived. I'm going to get respect. People know. And my first time getting to New England, and I do the introductory press conference, first question is, are you aware that your unpopular pick? People feel like they do.

drafted a special teams player in the first round. That's crazy. And that right there was like a reminder of, yo, you didn't make anything. Like no one thinks any, no one thinks you're great now. Like that same little 17 year old that was doubted. Like now he's just 23 or 24 and that same doubt is there. And that that sprung my career in the NFL of going to the pro bowl and being second team all pro as a rookie. And the coolest thing was I had a strengthening coach, which for me was an unbelievable honor. He coached the Cowboys in the 90s when they won their Super Bowls, part of the

Patriots, when they won their Super Bowls in the early 2000s. And when I got voted to the Pro Bowl as a rookie, he comes up to me, and he hated rookies. He would be so mean to rookies. And he was like, you know, I've had one other rookie pro bowler. He said,

you know who that is? I'm like, nah. He was like, Emmett Smith. And that moment for me was like the, all right, like, don't, don't ever get off this course. Whatever you're doing and it got you here, stay on this to continue to move forward because people notice it and it's working. What is going on?

We're here in Nashville with PACT. We got Devin McCordy in the building. We're going to talk a little bit of Devin's career, his current path now in broadcast and media, and all the work that he's doing in that space, philanthropy and his involvement with PAC as an organization. Obviously, we know PAC is doing some amazing work, not only for athletes, but the community in general and being able to provide an opportunity for these athletes to find an identity

outside of sports, right? I think that's been a common theme amongst a lot of the conversations that we've had, and I think it's a problem, right? Like hearing what happens to guys outside, you know, whether it's football, baseball, basketball, you know, whether you make it to the pro level, it's high school kids, right? Like so many kids, athletes, adults, whatever may be, have some sort of identity crisis after the fact. So the work that PAC does, I think, is extremely impactful and we'll definitely touch on that. But before we do, I want to tell your story, you know, from day one. And tell us a little bit

about how football became a part of your life and just the progression into your career. Yeah, man, it's a journey. I think I have... had to learn that along the way of there's no like exact destination that you get to that you turn around and you go man I'm here like it's over like it's it's always just a journey and uh you know for for me growing up you know obviously everyone knows that but twin brother we both got to play in the NFL um but like that wasn't we weren't those young kids that when we played like obviously we were good in our area where we were from people knew that but like as soon as we got into high school, we were like five, seven-ish, 115 pounds. Like, our high school coach still

says that when we walked through the door, it's like, so I never thought those guys were playing the NFL. Like, that wasn't really everybody's thought. Like, back home where I was from, everybody thought that. Like, we always played sports. Like, they always like, man, those kids going to be special. But when you actually got to it, it just didn't seem like that. And we always try to, I think now, especially I try to look at my journey and different things that happen. and see like what was the cause and effect of that. And for us, we lost our father when we were young. We were about three years old or turning three when we lost our father.

And I think a lot of times you hear that right away, I think people think of just being a statistic or how hard it is to have a single mom. And I look at that now and I'm like, there was a drive in me in sports because like I had a connection because everyone I would run into would be like, man, your last name's McCordy. you wouldn't happen to be related to cocky McCordy and I was so young. I was like man, who the hell is cocky McCordy?

And they were like, oh, Calvin. I was like, oh, that was my dad. He just passed when I was young. And they were like, man, your dad in basketball, he would walk outside and there would be a fence. He would take one step and jump over the fence. And I always look back and I'm like, you don't know if all that stuff is true because the story gets better year after year, you know. But like hearing that and not getting to actually know my father, I knew he loved

basketball. I knew he loved sports. So when I got into sports, I always felt like that was our connection. Like it was always sports. So when you get to go through and I go to high school and I go to St. Joe's, a Catholic high school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kind of known

for these big Catholic high schools and the rivalries and like, that's all right, this is it. Like, when I go here, I'm going to earn a full scholarship. Go there, strictly freshman football. They're like, you guys are small. My brother wanted to play running back didn't really get the ball as freshman.

Fast forward. Sophomore year, still small again, about 135 pounds, but start three games on varsity. So I'm like, oh, here I am. Like, they thought I was too small. I've arrived. Play our rival back in a day, if you were from the Jersey, tri-state area, you hear to name Brian Toll. He's one of those dudes that in high school, he was like one of the guys.

Went to the All-American game, played offense and defense. He runs me over in the game. us out. He runs me over like he gains speed as he runs me over. Last game I played on varsity as a sophomore. Wow. And, you know, my high school career didn't get ranked top 100 in the state. Wasn't like this like big time player. And my brother actually, you know, he ended up playing running back. He had a game one time where he had three carries, three touchdowns, 130-something yards. Oh, God damn. And when we left, he led to school in yards per carry. Like he was pretty, like he was pretty damn good in high school. And Rutgers, our head coach was Greg Shano at the time. He had twin

boys who were like at that time, maybe six or seven. And he's recruiting us. And Jay gets an offer in October. So now we're in December. We're going on a visit. Only Jay has an offer at this point. So when we go on his visit, he has an offer to Kent State, Rutgers, and Boston College. Boston College comes to our house. They do the in-home visit. Tom O'Brien is probably the first person that like put a huge chip on my shoulder when boston college offered my brother i understood like they weren't the first school to offer him and not offer me and he came and did the in-house visit and when he came they were like hey man we don't really we don't need you in that meeting and we grew up oh wow we when we moved out of our apartment we thought we made it we

moved to and we owned our trailer so we lived in a mobile home so like it was small like it what you're watching TV shows is like what they call trailer we had a double wide and when they had that meeting you know our living rooms here on the other side of that wall is our bedroom so I'm in the bedroom and I hear the voices as they're having that meeting and you can imagine as a 17 year old kid and when you grow up as a twin you're the same everything you do your mom buys you the same like ever and it was like the first time in our life where people were like no y'all are different And you know what? He's good and you're not.

Yeah. And for me, that just created this huge chip. And we go down to Rutgers. We're on this official. We're on this visit. The last day, Sunday before we leave, they offer me. So now I have my first division back then. It was called 1A.

1A offer to Rutgers. And I have another offer to New Hampshire that we both have. So I get home Sunday and I tell my mom, it's not real. They don't really want me. They want J. I don't want to go there. And my mom's like, hey, sometimes that's how it works out. Like, you don't always get to pick how or why.

But if you get an opportunity, that's your opportunity to show why. And Monday morning, I call coach, hey, I'm coming. I'm committing to school. And Jay's going to Boston College this next weekend. So he goes and he does his visit. And we found out now two years ago of what I made that call. It was actually Monday night. I make that call.

Coach Chiano calls the coach that recruited us staff, Darren Rizzy, and basically he's cursing them out because the only reason they offered me is because I found this out later. My mom told Shiano the only way you get Jason is if you offer both. They're a package deal. No way. Never wanted my mom to do that. Of course not.

She did that. And he found that out two years ago? I found out two years ago. My brother called a game for the Saints. And Darren Rizzi was their special team's coach. They went out to dinner. And he was telling them how the head coach called him cursing them out. Like, you got the wrong brother.

That's not the one we wanted. And my brother ended up committing the next weekend after he went on his visit. So we both ended up going to Rutgers. But there was no plan for me to actually be a part of it. Plan. Yeah. Like, again, if you're in the sports and you know sports, we go there. He's number 25.

I'm number 39. Right. He's the third string corner. I'm the seventh or eighth string safety. Like, I'm in the back of the room. And I felt that. Like, as soon as I got there, I was like, oh, okay, like, I'm not supposed to really be here. Training camp, they would have two groups going at once.

I'll be on that end where nobody's watching. You don't watch the film of that. So, like, that, you know, the Boston College, Getting to Rutgers, like that built up for me of, all right, like, it's time to go. Like, I'm going to prove. So winter breaks, summer breaks. Like, we would go home for a weekend and we'd go right back to school. And I would work out.

I would train. And I get drafted. You know, I end up, again, we're going to be honest here. I end up being better than my brother. So, Shana, Shana, recruit, is not your thing because you didn't figure that out. He didn't get it right. I was better than him at Rucker. So he was a six-round draft pick in 09.

2010, I was a first round draft pit. So like we talk about that. I made it moment. I'm like, man, and I used to tell my brother and his now wife when they were dating in college, I was just like, man, I'm going to shock the world. Like my goal was to be a first or second round pit. And I would always say that to them. And they'd be like, this guy.

I know what he's talking about. Always talking. And when I did it, I was just like, man, like, I wanted to do something like this and I did it. Like I finally arrived. I'm going to get respect. People know. and my first time getting to New England and I do the introductory press conference,

first question is, are you aware that you're unpopular pick? People feel like they drafted a special teams player in the first round? That's crazy. And that right there was like a reminder of, yo, you didn't make anything. Like, no one thinks you're great now.

Like, that same little 17-year-old that was doubted. Like, now he's just 23 or 24, and that same doubt is there. That sprung my career in the NFL of going to the Pro Bowl and being second team all pro as a rookie. And the coolest thing was I had a strengthening coach, which for me was an unbelievable honor. He coached the Cowboys in the 90s when they won their Super Bowls, part of the Patriots when they won their Super Bowls in the early 2000s. And when I got voted to the Pro Bowl as a rookie, he comes up to me and he hated rookies. He would be so mean to rookies.

And he was like, you know, name was Mike Wozzi. He was like, you know, I've had one other rookie pro bowler. He said, you know who that is? I'm like, nah. He was like, Emmett Smith. If you stay on that path, like that's what's the path you're going on. I was a Cowboys fan. I was a huge Emmett Smith fan growing up.

And that moment for me was like, all right, like, don't ever get off this course. Whatever you're doing and got you here, stay on. this to continue to move forward because people notice it and it's working. And the rest is history of what I was able to do there in the Wengland playing with, you know, grades being coached by the greatest of all the time, playing with Tom. But like the thing that I loved about my time in the Wengen was I really felt like the person and leader I was grew up there. Like I was a captain.

One other time my senior year in college was the only other time like I was a captain of a team. Like even in high school, we had reps. I was a rep, but I was never a captain. And becoming a captain in college and then jumping into the NFL and being a captain 12 out of my 13 years was an unbelievable honor. And like the younger version of me never saw myself as that. And that's what kind of what I'm like most proud of what I think about my journey and what I develop into. Absolutely. Just like that chip on your shoulder throughout the whole lifetime of your career. Yeah, never went away.

doubt that get to the next level. I've proved that people wrong there, but you get to the next chapter, and it's like there's still doubt there. And then it's chip on your shoulder again. And then, you know, you come into the NFL, they're like, who's this special team guy we got?

And you go and you make a Pro Bowl. Like, talk about just proving everyone wrong at all times. But I want to go back to, you know, what happened with your father, right? You hear a lot about, like, the importance of having, like, a father figure in your life. Did you have someone, you know, through the course of your life that,

represented himself as a father figure, I come from a single mom as well. And I always look as my mom as like that person, right? Because works two jobs, like provided for me and my brothers level of sacrifice that she's made will always be inspiring to me. But I'm curious to hear from you like how is that like being raised by a single mom and having not necessarily like a true father figure in your life? Yeah, man. My wife always gets on me, but she reminds me. me of like my story's not the norm. So again, I believe everything happens for a reason and like having a twin saved me and we saved each other

because like when you lose your father so young, it's a gift and a curse because you don't have memories. You don't have like lessons learned and you don't know that you don't have it. So you go through life and you just live and I was just like you. My mom was my rock. Like she was whatever.

you needed. She did. She was a pit bull. Like, she was hard on you. Like, she was a disciplinarian, like smack you. Do whatever she needed to do. Nowadays, you can't do that kind of stuff probably. But like, she raised, I had an older brother. I have an older brother who's 15 years older. Oh, okay. She raised three boys solo. So like she understood, I got to make sure they're in line before they're bigger than me. Yeah. And that, like, there was no holesball what she would do to make sure. So I did, so me and my brother did that. opposite of what was around us. So, you know, we had different male figures that none of them did or presented themselves as the things that I wanted out of life. At a young age, I kind

of realized that. So it was like, okay, opposite. All right, they do this that way. I'm not doing that. All right. That's what they decide to do. I'm not doing that. So like what it created was kind of wild and big dreams of, man. I don't want to just get a job and go to work every day. Like, why can't I go to school and play football? Why can't? So a lot of that was like, why not? And I still remember at high school, our accountant teacher going over the odds of making it.

And like everybody walking out of that, like, that classroom being like, damn. And I remember like me and my brother looking at each other and was like, damn, he said 3%. Like, shit, why can't we be a part of the 3%. And still it was like a far off dream. But I think that mentality that we had growing up of seeing like uncles and cousins on the corner and doing different things and then decided like, you know, an uncle that was selling drugs, that uncle that was using drugs. Like my older brother went into the army right out of high school because he didn't like school. So like he decided to go the path to the army. Like all of those things, I was like, man, like that's not me. I don't want to do that. So I think that let us know that like I don't have. to see what I want to do. I can see this and know that I don't want to do that and I can know even though there's no plan or path or like guy I can strictly follow, I'm okay jumping out

and doing it. So when we heard that 3%, I think our mind from a young age was already wrapped around, shit, that 3% sound better than 0%. So let's go. Like let's get. And that's why I said the gift of having that twin was we pushed each other. If I started, I start, started going this way, he grabbed me. Nah, we're not doing that. And we're so hard on each other. We'll challenge each other in everything, whether it's sports, whether it's fatherhood,

whether it's being a husband. Like, we'll always challenge each other to make sure we stay sharp because there's that kind of like true love and bond that, like, you know as much as I might hate this person and what they're saying to me, I know deep down they want the best for me. Yeah, no, that's a damn fact.

I'm like thinking of me and my brothers like through that whole process. And it's like, yeah, my mom was my rock. But like, there's a deeper level of a relationship. And you don't know if you're as close if you do have that father figure. And it's not that you didn't want it. Right. We both wanted it.

We're both dads now. And we like, I feel that when I'm with my kids. But I also know, like, without that, it forced us to lean on each other a lot. Oh, yeah. And it's impacted us and made our relationship what it is now. You guys went through that challenge together, you know? So, like, now it's like, we're in this together. so we're going to get out of this together.

Exactly. And you also bring up something that I think is interesting, right? Like people talk about you can learn what to do, right? And there's value in learning, you know, the right things to do. But there's a ton of value of learning the things not to do. Right. And like, this is the type of person I don't want to be. Might not be ideal, but like you could work with that. Exactly. Exactly. And you learn from, okay, well, at least I know what I don't want to do. Exactly. Yep. So at least you're boom, you're checking off those boxes. Get that out of here.

Get that out. And now it's like, all right, now I've shrunk my level of vision into all right, this is the path I'm going to go. That 3% really might feel like 80% to you. It's like, yeah, to you, that 3% feels tiny. But to me, that 3% is just enough of the percent that allows me to believe that I can do it. Yep. Hell yeah. No doubt.

So now, you know, you're in your career, right? You had that extremely successful NFL career. Your brother as well got to finish your career with him. But talk to me a little bit about what that was like, like being able, like at the final chapter of your career being able to share that with your brother yeah man i had finished year i was in finish year eight so i'm in year nine he's going in year 10 so it had been flirted with a couple times of when i first was a free agent of possibly going down to tennessee when he was in tennessee had conversations with them when i was a free agent then that was 2015 season then the trade

deadline of that year, my coach came up to me like, man, there's a rumor that like, we might trade to get your brother. I'm like, damn, don't say that. Don't do that. Like, now, you know what I mean? If you're going to say it, you got to make it happen now. Tell me when it's at the goal line. And fast forward now we get to 2018. Like, we've given up on that thought. Like, even the next times that we were free agents, it wasn't like, man, like we got to try to, It was just, oh, man, our careers are already, like, you got to go make your money. I got to make my, like, we got to do what's best. And 2007, going into 2017 season, Tennessee, again, my brother loves Nashville, loves the Titans organization, and they draft them, gave him a shot.

Tennessee, Tennessee screwed him. And he went into the last year of his deal. He's supposed to make a certain amount of money. Our agent reached out. It was like, hey, we know Jay's on the books for X amount of money. Is there something we could do? What are you guys thinking? Oh, we want him.

He's going to be here a week and a half before the draft. They're like, hey, we need you to take a pay cut. We need you to go from 7 mill down to 1.7. And you're going to be our fifth corner. So you're going to have to fight to make the team. So he was like, all right, so I started this year. You're going to bump me to five. I'm going to be in year 10.

And you're going to bring in all young guys. You're going to cut me at the end of training camp. So, no, like, just cut. me now. And I've always hated that story because like when it hits Jason McCordy released because he refuses to take a pay cut with none of the actual details of he got he he he told him to cut me because they said I'm going to basically cut you later. Right. Exactly. That's the way the game is. But so he decides like, all right, I'm in limbo now. Once you get released a week before the draft, nobody, nobody signs you because they want to go through the draft. Right. So then Cleveland comes

And they're like, hey, we want to give you a two-year deal. And I'm like, ah, my boy. Don't go over there. Don't go to Cleveland. Don't go over there. Everybody knows. He was like, what do you want me to do? I got three kids.

We need to find a school. We need to find a place to live. Like, I can't keep waiting. I'm like, bro, I hear all that. Yeah. Don't go to Cleveland. You'll figure it out. Signs of Cleveland.

And again, rough time has his third child. She has every food allergy known to man. New City, him and his wife were going through it. Just a tough year off the field. On the field, he's feeling healthy, has a heck of a year on the field. End of the year, they go 0-16. Oh, and 16. Don't win a game.

I go, bro, can't go back. Whatever you need to do. And I'm more of the outspoken one. He's more of the reserve one usually. And he does an interview at the end of the year, and he's like, we're not an 0-1-16 team. everybody keeps talking about the talent. It doesn't, it's not the talent.

It starts at the top. We're bad at the top. Ownership. And I was on, yes, bro. That will get you cut. That's what you need to do. And probably like maybe a month and a half later, he gets the call from the GM. Hey, we appreciate you.

You're a true professional, the way you came to work. But we got to let you go. We're going to release you. And he calls, he Face-Times me and tells me that and I'm like, all right, hold on. Like, this is the moment. Yeah, exactly. So I text Brian Flores B. Flo at the time was our defensive coordinator going in 2018 season. I'm like, hey, Jay's about to get released. Like, we got to get on. And we were missing that veteran kind of player the year before when we lost to the Eagles in the Super Bowl. And he's like,

all right, let me, I say, yo, should I just hit up? So I just talk to Bill Belichick. And he's like, Yeah. So I text Bill. Hey, Bill, Jay's going to get released. Two McCordy's are better than one. No response. Forty-five minutes to an hour go by. I go, shit, I guess two McCordy's ain't better than one. Bill calls me and he goes, the transaction, they didn't put it through yet. The news just broke. We called down there. We're just going to trade for him since he has a year left on his deal. We're going to trade for him. So he's going to trade for him. Oh, wow. He's going to be on the Patriots.

So I FaceTime him. I'm like, yo, he's like, what's up? I was like, hey, welcome to the team. And he's like, bro, what the hell are you talking about? Nobody's talked to. Our agent doesn't know. Nobody knows. I'm like, bro, we're about to trade for you.

He's like, bro, shut up. I'm like, welcome to the team. We're training for you. His wife's in the background. Like, that's bullshit. We don't want to get traded. We want to negotiate our contract. And I love it because I was like, this is the genius of Bill who, like,

knew he played well the year before, but was like, we're going to get him on this deal. True. And we get them. And I mean, honestly, the best three years in my career, we win the Super Bowl year one. Mom has one game to go to all year. When we went a Super Bowl against the Rams in Atlanta, my mom's on the field doing Angels and Confetti. At that time, I had two of my three kids. He had all three of his kids.

we did the NFL network set after the game with, you know, his youngest daughter, my oldest daughter holding him on the set with us. It was just like an unbelievable time. Wow. Led into what we ended up doing later in life. We started our podcast in 2018 when he came double coverage with the McCordy twins. So like everything kind of took off for us with that. And it was just awesome.

Like every Friday we would go to each other's house. We carpooled to the game. Like we were just. living the 10-year-old kids who play football, who used to go outside before games, and would go over our plays, we'd throw to each other, we'd be doing tall sweeps going over our plays, like those kids got to do that at the highest level and won a championship. I mean, 2018 was just a very special year. Yeah, you can't even like write that story.

At all. At all. And your mom obviously was in heaven. No, never met it of it. Like to be in that. We took 30 people to the Super Bowl that year. Like usually, usually the Super Bowl, like, we ain't supposed to say this, but you want to get your tickets. You want to try to sell some of those tickets.

We know. We know. We know, and I'm like, now this is my fifth Super Bowl appearance. So I'm like, Jay, this is how we going to do it. He's like, nah, bro, whoever want to go, they can go. I go, hey, man, like, that ain't how this work. Like, whoever wants to go, we're going to lose a lot of money. And, like, it was so cool because I was like, you know what?

you're right. Like this is a moment in time. That's how you, man, we have friends, like family, friends like college buddies, high school buddies, all went out to the game,

which was, I mean, unbelievable time. Yeah, that's sick. You brought up, B-Flow. I'm actually curious to hear, you know,

your perspective on B-flow. He's obviously had, he got his head coaching stand, you know, with Miami. Obviously, those things didn't work out there. And there's a lot of dynamics,

I guess you could say, during his era there. But, like, what's your perspective on him? Like, If you got to be with him, he has mixed reputations out there in the league, but would love to hear what your kind of perspective is on it. Yeah, man, I'm huge on, like, who you present yourself to me and who I see you from whatever

amount of time I get to spend with you, I'm holding you to that. And for me, like, we talked about father figures and different people growing up. I love being around flow because I saw the version of what I wanted to become in life someday. Like, I've spent Thanksgiving at Flo's house. And Flo has two, he has twin brothers. And I've met his twin brothers. And he has his youngest brother who I met, who is on the spectrum. And I got to know him. And every time I was, I would talk to Flo, he'd be like, yo, Chris is still talking about you of just hanging out with his brother Chris and his wife, Jenny, of having players in that space and living that. And Flo's not much older than me. And for me, it was just,

all right, man, here's a minority guy in coaching with a wife and kids, family-oriented, doing it. And we had a really, like, special relationship for the standpoint of I was a corner and I got moved to safety. And he was doing special teams. And he came over to defense and he was a safety. And our group was just special when he coached us. We had veteran players, Pat Chung, Durant Harmon, myself.

And we all got along well and flow changed some of the ways we did things. we only met as a unit, no individual meetings. He was big on, if I talk to you, I want everybody to hear what I'm saying so nothing gets changed or this person said that. Like, I want everyone to know what your role is, what your role is, and what we expect. So if I got to pull you out, everybody knows because we know what the expectation. And I absolutely love that. I think that's what, especially a team sport, like when you're in a competitive room where

we're all fighting for two or three spots on the field. I don't want when you meet with so-and-so to be like, hey, man, like, you should have to do this and then you should be playing. But, no, like, let's all be open and honest. So I love that. And that's the person that, like, I got to see when my contract was expiring off my rookie deal, I remember Flo called me and was like, hey, man, like, I just want to meet up. Like, it's setting in, and, like, two weeks, you might be on another team.

and like I might never coach you again and we won't have this. And I was like, yeah, man. And he was like, do you want to meet somewhere else because I know I was like, no, man. Like I was there five years. Like I'm still on the contract until two more weeks. I'm coming into the building.

And we just chopped it up and we talked about not just coming back to New England, but like my family, my mom, what I was moving towards. And he was like, man, like whatever you got to do. Like I understand that. Like, that to me meant the world of like, this is not just me and a coach. This is me and somebody that got to know me as a person talking about what's next, how to best do it.

So I always, like I still text flow. I went out and interview Justin Jefferson for NBC last year, chopping it up with flow. We got to talk. So he's always going to be like one of my favorite coaches, but just a good friend for me. For sure. And I mean, he's had success pretty much everywhere he's gone. You know, didn't work out with the Finns. but from a defense perspective,

and that's what coaching is. And our business, it might not work out, right? Andy Reid was in Philadelphia for years. Took him to the Super Bowl. They wanted them gone, right? Like, yeah, man, he doesn't win the big one. Yeah. Oh, he doesn't?

And he goes to Kansas City. And it doesn't stop the Eagles, right, two Super Bowl since. So it's just, that's how things work. And I understand, like, there's other people's experiences with flow that, to me, are justified in their experiences and what they say about them.

Like, that is how they feel. And that's what, so I fully understand that. I don't sit here and be like, man, no, they're wrong. He's great. Right. For me, he was awesome. From a personal level. Still like that for me.

And I fully understand that. I'm curious. Like, what's your, what's your thoughts? Like, a lot of coordinators become head coaches, right? That's kind of the trajectory. Why do you think some have more difficulty in translating into that head coach role? What do you think that dynamic is? Man, it's hard because it changes up, like what you do,

day to day, like you go from, you go from this, this coach who gets to have these kind of unique and dynamic relationship with your guys that you only get to worry about like your guys on defense and like your special groups and you get to know them. Then you get the whole team and everybody's like, oh, but it's not the whole team aspect of it. It's everything outside of football. It's all of the media things you got to go to. It's a, we're drawing up the program for the gala that we're having. What do you? It's like the gala, bro.

Like, I want to, I want to coach football. And obviously, close with Gerard Mayo. And I remember last year, getting to see him at the owners meetings and we're in Orlando. And he was like, bro, I barely get to do ball. Like, I'm staying up late to watch film because every time I'm trying to, I'm getting pulled here, yo, the organization is going over this. Like, we need you here. We need your input there.

So I think that's the biggest trend. for all of these coaches. And depending on where you're at, you might not get pulled up into some of those meetings that your head coaches in and going through, which I thought was unique where I think Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn kind of talked about Dan Campbell mentoring them in a way of like, look, this is how this is going to be.

Hey, check this out, kind of giving them an inside look. And so much is fixated on you winning right now. Yeah. They're like, you don't, sometimes head coaches don't have time. to like mentor that coordinated because like you're so focused on winning so I think that's the hardest aspect of taking care of everything outside of football when all you like a lot of those guys man they just want to coach ball they want to win and there's so many other things and I think that's why you need to make sure you get leaders of men and of people and organizations like and we get so used

just saying leaders of men but nowadays it's not as leaders of people you have women all throughout sports and I think we've seen that's good for sports. So we need more women. We need more input on how to run things, how to do things a better way. So I think that's extremely hard from my experience of playing and then now being in the media aspect of getting to go to teams and talk to coaches and talk and see different lenses. You see how much head coaches get pulled in so many different directions. That's a crazy way to think about you don't really realize how much level complexity that goes into the role as a head coach. But you talk about your media. I want to get into that whole world. So you and your brothers start the podcast when you're there in New England

and it's evolved into now both of you being on TV. Tell me a little bit about like what was that that first feeling getting behind the mic and, you know, your football player first. But now you're kind of putting yourself in this different kind of personality and different light. Yeah, man, I got to give my brother to flowers. Like he he jump started it. Even, even, Even with our podcast, like, we're different and how we do things. Like, both as players knew a lot about what was going on because I played safety more. I felt in charge. Like, man, we're going to do this stuff, blah, blah, blah.

And Jay was because he was a corner, he would know everything, but you get used to checking what your safety because they got the view. TV kind of world, Jay wants to dot every eye, cross every T. He wants to have pages of notes. And I'm like, hey, bro, like, I'm all with preparation. I was in the New England tree. Like, it's all about preparation, but I'm like, you doing too much. Like, we got to be ready. So, like, when we did our podcast, he would do a lot of like,

yo, did you jump in a run a show and add stuff? I was like, no, I checked it out, but like, we're good. But you didn't add anything. And I'm like, yo, don't worry, we're good. So we always had that kind of like back and forth. I get it. And he retires a year before me and goes into the unknown. And we both went to the NFL broadcast boot camp.

he got rated higher. Like all the NFL network or NFL people were like, Jay was the highest rated. I think they give him a little edge because he went and worked for NFL network. So he hit the double whammy, but they love him over there. So they always tell about how great he is.

And it all stemmed from when we did the radio, calling the game on the radio. I went first. So the mistake I made, I text him. Like, hey, don't do this, don't do that. And you'll crush it. So his was better than mine because I gave him the feedback. Yeah, yeah, he's done it.

But then when he goes a good morning football and, you know, his first auditions, I'm in L.A. So the time difference, I'm waking up early. I'm watching it because, like, this is new now. I know I'm going back to football, but I'm watching my brother, like, make this, this scary transition that we've been dreading since day one. And they tell you about it. And he does it. And I'm like, man, that's a high. And I remember watching later in the season.

And I'm like, okay, like, he's getting better at this. And I remember FaceTime in a while he was in London. And they were in London for the week doing the show. And I was just like, hey, bro, how are you doing? Like, we all talk about this and we're in a ton of group chats together. I said, but I'm checking to really see how are you doing. Now it's been some time. You could actually miss being out there.

I'm still out there. you're watching and he just tours me of the room. He's in this big, this big sweet in London. He was like, I'm living in life. I'm good. This is awesome. And that hit me hard because I was like, we were struggling in New England a little bit. The seasons weren't going the way it used to be.

And I felt like I was turning into the point where I was just holding on and seeing him and being like, okay, like he's killing this. And then, well, in March when I retired, no, right before I retired, I did. the show with him for a week. They allowed me to come on their host for a week. Oh, that's cool. And that's when I was just like, oh, shit, he's good. Like, we're in there, and we're going,

and he's laying out to go into the brakes, and he's jumping, he's jumping on the teleprompter. He's reading the teleprompth, and we come. And I'm like, oh, like, yo, you've been working on your crap. And that, for me, as a brother,

was so cool to see this guy who did something just like me for 13 years, all in. so everything's about. And now he's running his own segment where he's got the teleprompter moving and he's doing all of these different things. And I'm like, yo, man, he's really crushing this. This is awesome to see.

And that inspired me more than anything. And that's when I knew that year, I was like, man, I'm done. I want to get into this too. I'm watching him. He loves it. I think I'll love it too. And as we getting into the next topic of like when I retired, my last year during the bye week, I went to CBS NFL today, didn't ask the Patriots for permission.

I said, I'm going to ask for forgiveness later. Oh, wow. Because you realize once you get older, you got more retired friends than current playing friends is once it's over, it's over. Like there is no tapping back into the team. Right. You're on your own. The team's still worried about winning with their new players. So I said, I think I might want to do this.

I got to just go. So I did that season ended. I went back to NFL today. I went to NFL Network and did two days, Saturday and Sunday with NFL Network on their playoff coverage. Then I went to audition for Fox. So I was like, all right, bro. Sit back, wait for these job opportunities.

You're rolling. Retire. March. March goes by. April goes by. Now we're in the beginning of May. And I'm like, damn. I thought I was like in a job.

I'm like, somebody, anybody. And I'll never forget. my guy at NBC that I met at the boot camp, Fred Goodellie, Fred calls me and he goes, hey, what are you thinking? I heard there's a lot with CBS. Like, just don't sign anything until you hear back from me. And I'm like, Fred, man, like, it's being competitive. Like, I ain't have nothing that I wanted at the time.

But the fact that he thought that I did, I was just like, all right, like, I'll try to wait for you. And I get off and I tell my wife, I'm like, man, NBC. called and I had did an audition. I had to do an interview with NBC. They were starting their Big Ten coverage, a traveling road journey. And I was just like, it's not ideal. Like we got young kids.

I'll be traveling every weekend. I said, but NBC, like I would take this. And I get a call from my agent. And he was like, hey, we got an interview. I was going to New York to do CBS Sports. They were doing a draft preview. I went, and this was the second year I was doing this. So I went to do, and he was like, before you leave, we're going to go to New York City,

and you're going to go meet with the executive producer at NBC Sports, Sam Flood. And I'm like, okay, like, what's this about? He was like, they said maybe NFL. And I'm like, but they only have Sunday night football, football night in America, the pregame. Man, we go, supposed to have an hour lunch. It goes for two hours. And a week later, jump on a Zoom. And they're like, we want to offer you the job at Football Night in America.

Wow. And we want to add your chair because we think you can add to our show. And I'm like, oh, okay. And they're like, and I love saying. He's like, we're the number one rating. He's selling me. I'm on the other end. Like, Sam, you ain't got to sell.

You ain't got to sell me. Send a contract. Where do I sign? Where do I sign, man? It's been unbelievable because I just didn't imagine straight out. I was going to that. And my wife would tell you. It was some of the hardest parts of our marriage was we were still living up in Massachusetts,

got the job, had a Hall of Fame game in August. Like there was no like training like summit you go to. Just throw you in. You just go in. So my anxiety's building up. We're packing up our house in Foxborough. We sold it. We got to go back to Jersey.

But our house in Jersey that we're moving back into were actually building a house around the corner. So we had all of these things. James going on. And my wife's a rock star because she does all that. I'm not big into like, I don't care about a lot of like the hell. Like, man, we did well in life and we got a, I grew up in an apartment in a mobile home. Yeah. And we got this big old house. Like, whatever you do is going to be fine by me. Like, so I'm not as into it. But I'm now freaking out because I'm like, I got to worry about this damn job. I don't want to mess it up. So it was just so much like back and forth and stress. And I still remember I go out to.

Kent and I do well that first time out. And I'm just like so excited. I take a shot at Jay opening, like my opening thing, like welcome Devin McCordy football night in America. I was like, man, we're at the Hall of Fame game. My brother, he was a six-year-old draft pick. So he played a lot of snaps in this game back then because he wasn't that good. And just the rush I got, I walked away.

And the next day I had to go to New England. I went to one of their practices. And I was talking to Bill and I was just like, man. And that rush was so cool. And I didn't think I would ever get that again from playing and doing what I did as a player. And I was like, I really like this. I think I'm going to do this for a long time. And that feeling was a stamp of like, hey, man, you made the right decision retiring.

Because you never know when you first retire. Right. Yeah. And we could circle back to that kind of component of like post retirement and post career. But when did it hit you there? you're like, damn, now I'm a TV guy. Like, when was it? Was it like that first moment you're like, you see the kid?

Because it's like you got the cameras, you got the lights, you got all these things, miced up. You know, that stuff didn't bother me as much. Like, that was cool. My realest moment of like, man, like, you're really just TV guy now was this year. Gerard Mayo gets fired. And him and Matthew Slater, like, two of my closest friends that I played with. And I got to go and talk about it. now and the crafts I played up there for 13 years.

I got to know the crafts really well. They invested in like sickle cell and different things like that through what I was doing with sickle cell and my campaign. And I'm like, now I gotta go talk about these condo, like they fired him and like this is, and going and talking about that and talking to the producers before we go on air to try to. Yeah.

And like I'm texting them, hey, tell me if there's anything that is important to you. y'all just got fired. I'm texting about TV. And it's just like, that was the first time where I was just like, man, like, this is the one thing that I was like dreading doing of feeling like, man, you're in it. But also, I always look at it as like, I want to be an advocate to what most fans sit and they think about of like, man, fire him.

They didn't win. I'm like, no, this is a human being. Exactly. This is a guy with a family. This is a guy just like how anybody else gets fired from their. job, how much that sucks. It's the same thing here. It sucks. I'm not telling you to feel bad. They make a lot of money. Of course. I'm just telling you like, hey, just think about that before you make any crazy comment or anything like that. So as much as hard as that was, I also felt in that moment, I want to be in this seat. I want to be able to talk about that. I want to be able to give insight into these things because I do. I think I'm in a position where I can do that. And as hard as that was, I also enjoyed being able to be in that. role and felt honored and blessed to be able to do that well it's it's good because you have that

refreshing kind of perspective on it as a guy that has a direct relationship and connection to these guys that you're like i'm not going to put you in the negative and as far as like a media perspective right because fans are always going to have some sort of thoughts on it but it's like what do you really know at the end of the day because you have no connection whereas you it's like i'm not just a media guy like i played with these guys i was in the trenches with these guys i'm going to and make sure that I understand what the fans want to hear and what, you know, TV viewers want to hear. But I'm also going to protect my guys.

That's what I've learned is so cool about now. As a media member, I'm a former player, a huge fan, and like I'm an advocate. I put all of those things together. Exactly. Because when I retired and I got into this, my fandom came back. Like, I was so used to as a player being like, man,

I hope Buffalo always loses. I hope the Jets always losing. the Dolphos always lose. No matter who they play, I want them to lose. So I don't like anybody on Buffalo, Jess and my, like, I don't like anybody in Pittsburgh. I don't like anybody in Baltimore. Like, you become that because you know they're stopping you from getting to the Super Bowl. Like, we were always in that position to get a game away from the Super Bowl or in the Super Bowl.

So I always wanted them to do poorly so we could get in the Super Bowl. And then when I was done, I'm like, man, Kyle Hamilton, Baltimore. It's a bad boy. I fell back in love with just the game of football, which is super authentic. So when I go and talk, sometimes if I'm on TV and I get to talk about a player or a player or a coach, I'm a fan talking to you because not every player I talk about is a friend of mine or I've gotten to know. I'm telling you, I'm turning on the film and I'm like, oh, this dude is all. I love this. And I hope when I'm doing that, people are, man, he loves the game. I can hear of it shows for sure that shows that's the part I love that you get to put on all these different hats and talk about football

No, that's sick. That's sick now you I mean I watch you all on TV on NBC all the time and You get tell like there's just a different caliber coming from like a person from you not to take anything away from other guys on TV But it's like just this level of understanding right like me as a fan I'm listening in with the intent of like I want to learn too you know I don't want to just be entertained Exactly I want to learn Obviously, there's importance to entertainment, right? But there's also a ton of value and being able to sit down and digest and like, let me learn something here. Yep.

Every time we go on TV, the top guys at NBC, they go, teach me something, entertain me. Don't just teach me something without entertainment. Yeah. And don't just entertain. Right. Like, that's all they tell us. And it is. Like, you said that.

It's a fine line. And when somebody hits it in our world, the people, we watch it. We're talking about it before we jumped on. It's T&T. It's, it's Shaq. It's Kenny. It's Barkley. It's DJ. We all want to create that because we're highly entertained and we still learn the game of basketball. That's what we're all chasing. You look back like when you go back to school, right? Like those teachers that were just boring here, like, bro, I'm not learning anything right now. But that teacher that just somehow was able to make learning fun made me remember or everything. I had a World War II class in high school. That was my favorite class. I liked history,

but goddamn, you can ask me anything about World World War II now because he incorporated saving Private Ryan and it. He was adding these elements of like Band of Brothers and then bringing it into a history lesson. I'm like, I've never been more engaged in a class like that. So it's very, very similar in that world. And coaching is the same thing. I tell people that all the time. Coaches not just the X's and O's. You can't just sit up there and bore people with all. You got to relate to guys you got to know where to meet them how to bring them in so it's definitely it's a unique thing and it's a unique gift to have when somebody has that as a teacher absolutely well you clearly found your identity post football but a lot of guys struggle with that you know post post anything right when

you're starting that new trap there devoted so much time and energy into the specific space and then now it's taken away from you whether that's through retirement whether that's you don't get signed or injury or whatever that may be, what would be your level of advice for someone that's struggling to find that identity post career? Pro athlete community. Yeah, sir.

Man, it is so interesting and feel very blessed through PAC and through knowing different people. We got to have a conversation. I got to talk to Candace Parker. And I know the stories of like NFL players. And she said to me, she was like, you don't understand of like,

women's sports is even different. She said, we go in with the thought of, we're going to have to have a job. We're going to have to do these different things. We don't have the NFL to bank on. Like, that's a totally different environment. And I was just like, damn. Not a thought.

Not a thought. Like, even if we play five years pro, we've got to get a job. Like, we're not making that kind of money. And now I look, and I try to tell guys that because I'm like, there's levels. But you just said everybody's transitioning from something in all walks of life. So I tell guys, like, for one, give yourself grace.

Don't sit there and beat a guy that was the person who they had to be to be elite in football. We had to give ourselves no grace. We had to be like, man, my steps not straight. I'm a little, I'm a little, I'm 45 degrees. No, you need grace in this transition. I told guys the first pack I came back and spoke to. I told guys sometimes you wake up and everybody tells you your day needs to be full. It needs to be packed. Sometimes you need to have a day or a morning or a morning and afternoon where it's set just on you. Whatever you love to do, whatever it is to bring you back and kind of ground you and put you back and you got to have that because we've been like this the whole time on go. Do this. Do that. Sometimes you got to settle back. And the second thing I tell guys is we got to keep just chugging along. We got to keep shooting our shot.

When you get to do football and all you master it, right? Because when you think about it, you start at whatever, high school, 10 years old like I did. I did it until I was 35. Like that's mastering a skill. You do it for that long. So when we jump into the next thing, we're like, we're masters. I got to master whatever I do. No, what?

How? Like, that CEO, that's a billionaire, he's been trying to be that for the last 25 years. Exactly. He's been at the worst level of job ever. He's failed. Like, I know I've met different guys who do really well now. And they've told me, like, just downstairs today, guys saying, hey, I went public. I was worth $55 million a year later.

It all went to zero. Like, that's ultimate failure. Yeah. Seriously. still now he's an owner in sports leagues and he figures it out exactly and i try to tell guys man as you give yourself grace man don't be scared to just keep hopping in things keep trying them out keep doing those things keep failing and getting back up because that's okay yeah like it's okay that you might retire at 29 and you don't and you're not a master at 32 of whatever you do next

yeah like that's okay i'm 37 years old and and when i'm around football players i'm like the oldest dude ever. You get in other different arenas, people are like, man, you're so young. It's true. It's all perspective. Look at all these things you've done. You're so young. Like Chip always tells us that he's like, man, I became my, I got my dream job at 37. He's like, you guys are talking about being done with work at 34, 35. Like that's not normal. So I just try to bring that reality to guys. Before we ever dig into, do you want to do private equity, venture capital? do you want what pathway of job success? Before we get to any of that, like, let's work on you.

Let's figure out what you need to do to be the right mindset going forward. And what you need to do to provide for a family or whoever you have that's leaned on you throughout your career. How do you continue to be that kind of leg on a table for those people? Because I know that's important to you. So how do we continue to be that person? Because like Tiel Henderson, who's a big part of PAC, she always says, If you try to save everybody and you drown, it doesn't help because everybody's still going drown.

So it's making sure we have the right mindset before we really go into anything else. For sure. It's like, you know, people, I'm one of these people too. You're so focused on this like perfectionist, right? Everything's got to be perfect before I do this. Yeah, yeah. When you do that, it'll never get done. You know, it's like, all right, what can I do now to attack today, be the best version of myself

today so that tomorrow I've set myself up for that much more success and you just start stacking those days as days of just improvement. And they're not going to be perfect. They're going to be far from perfect. And you might take some steps back in that process. But as long as that steady progression is happening and you're putting the work every day, doing the things that you can control, the wins are going to start to show. But when you get stuck in that like perfectionist mindset, you start paralyzing yourself.

Man, as you said that, it made me think back to 2013. Matthew Slater, I got to play through all 13 years in Matthew Slater. He was one of the greatest people leaders I've ever been around. And he was always on me about going to Bible study on the Patriots. Like, hey, man, still haven't seen you. And I had that mindset of, man, right now I still be going out. I'm still having fun. Like, I'll get there.

Like, when I'm ready, I'm going to pull up my Bible study. and one day in the offseason I go and one of my teammates, Nate Soder, is in there and is known, but he's talking about how he's diagnosed with cancer and then his son ended up getting diagnosed and he talked about that and our chaplain came in and talked about there's no perfect time. There's no like, oh, I'm good, I got everything figured out.

Again, it's the typical story like, man, I wasn't even going to chapel today And I go, and y'all talking directly to me and the impact it now has. And that for me was big because then I was chapel every week and doing all those different things. And it did it change how I view things. And I still wasn't perfect. Like nobody, we never get to that. But it made me now walk this line of, hey, man, I'm in.

Like I came here and I just got to be better than I was the day before. And if I, like you just said, if I slip tomorrow and I fall back five, days. And I'm like, I'm where I'm at, where I was five days ago. All right. All right. All right. All right. I'm back to it. Okay. But it's a process. It's a journey. And that was big for me in 13 of figuring that out. Because I had a really rough year in 2011 and trying to climb out of that. In 2013, I've got second team all pro again as a safety now. So now this is the one's the, all right. Second team all pro is a corner and as a safety. put my name next to Ronnie Lott and Rod Woodson, which levels to this. Like, they hear, I'm a little lower, but the fact that, like, in the same sentence,

it was like, only these three players have done that. I was just like, damn, that's pretty cool. And it was just that mindset of figuring out, like, man, it's okay where you're at. Now where you're at, how do you go? And I needed that at that point in my life, and it stuck with me ever since. That's awesome. Well, before we wrap it up, I want to just get your thoughts. So obviously you're on the board there with PAC, right?

What excites you most about where PAC is heading and what the work that they're doing? What I love about PAC right now is when I got introduced to this, it was right after, it was right Caleb was leaving the Dolphins, which PAC started kind of as like an NFL transition program. It was you go to the events. It's all NFL. And now like we're heavy. Like we're all pro.

Like this is pro. It's not just NFL. So it's the expansion. It's now going out there and having conversations with people and talking about the WNBA, the NBA, the NBA, FIFA, the NHL. It's bringing this because for so long we get stuck in our sport. Like for me in football, it was just like, these are the problems in football. You realize like, man, these are the problems in sports. Like, this is a problem in pro sports everywhere.

And I just love that. And now being the board co-chair with my brother, we go and we have these conversations. Like, I go and I'm having a conversation with a friend, and I've gotten to know him for my time in New England. He's a billionaire. I'm like, man, I got to get you down to one of these business combines. I got to get you talking on a panel. Your story will ignite so many different guys.

And I say that now of when I tell my friend that who's a CEO, I'm telling them that because it'll help the guys. I'm also telling them that because the times we've gone to dinner, he's like, man, I, it's crazy to say this, but I love when I go to hire somebody and their resume says, college lacrosse, college football, college field hockey. He was like, I love seeing that or I love seeing, hey, I did pro soccer. She was a pro soccer player for, he was like, I love that. He's like, because I know what I'm getting. I know there's no sick days.

I know there's no this hurts. I can't come in today. He's like, I know I'm going to have to send that person home. So when I think about pro athlete community, I'm like, like, this is a two-way street now. Like, I'm connecting people to help our community, but our community's going to go back and help them too. So, man, it's been awesome.

I didn't think I would join another board. I've been my time in New England, I met a lot of different people that do great work in nonprofit spaces, and I volunteered and helped out on their board, and I gotten to see what it means to be a board member. I was like, man, I got three kids at home, no more boards. And when I talked to Chip and talked to Caleb, I was like, man, this is who I am.

I'm passionate about this. Like I've lived it. I got to help. I got to help this grow. And it's been unbelievable to be with them and go to different events and have conversations, Zooms with different people as we try to grow this. And then I'm just happy to be kind of on the floor, the cutting room floor of growing pro athlete community and everything PAC can be.

100%. And this is my second PAC event now. We did the one in Miami. And now this one, you could just tell the level of selflessness that everybody involved. guys like it it ain't about it it ain't about the individual yes it's it's about everybody else here and everyone is here to just what do you need yep you just want to pour into people that that is it and when you have that kind of like as the backbone like sky's the limit and and there is a need

for this and and it's you know first i played baseball up until high school tore my rotator cuff and i was like i'm done what am i going to do here right but i struggled to the identity And all my boys that I played at high school baseball with and sports with all struggled with it. And they still, to this day, are like sports is all they know. So they feel like they got to do something in sports where it's like, I get it. Like you're passionate about it. You lived it. You breathed it.

But you might have a bigger purpose than that, right? And that was your avenue to get out. You don't got to be so stuck in it. And it comes to like what you were mentioning. Like, just go try different things. Just try. Experience stuff. See what it is that you don't like.

Like, see what it is that you do. You don't know. And from there, you can at least start figuring things out. I'm, you know, I look back at my journey. I'm very grateful for taking that leap of faith. I got my degree in exercise science out of college, kind of was following that path of, like, I did sports. I got to stay in sports. And I'm still around sports, but like in my way, you know, the way that I feel like this is what I was meant to do, what I was called to do, like, share stories, be kind of a voice of reason.

and provide a positive message to people. But it took some deep soul searching to figure that out. And exactly what you just said is what I want all the former players to think about. Right. Like it took soul searching. It took time. I did this because I thought that. And then I was here.

And like that's your journey. Yeah. That's going to be your testimony someday. Exactly. When you get up there, you're going going to go and you're going to speak it. You're going to tell people. And I've been big on. me and my wife, we went through a really challenging time.

We lost our third child, would have been our third child. We lost our daughter. It was a stillborn. And when I was in the middle of that, and it was crazy because that happened, we found out the 23rd. So my wife had to give birth to her on the 24th to 25th was George Floyd. This is all 2020. And we're all in a hospital room.

And all this happens. So like when I get the news, we're all on Zoom's and stuff. with our team, I wasn't in a mental space to be like, man, I'm gonna call coach and tell them I'm not gonna be on because we're dealing with this. It wasn't real to me yet. So I didn't even have the words to be like, hey, we just lost our door. Like I like, I couldn't even come out of your mouth. Yeah, yeah. And my wife is looking at me like, you're really about to jump on the meeting? And I was just like, man, I don't want to say the reason why I can't jump on the meeting. So I'm in that meeting and we're talking about social justice and we're doing all

of these different things. And I'm like, I remember that happened in May and we get to like June July time and I'm listening to a pastor to do Charlie Dates out of Chicago. He had lost his mom and he had took time away and he came back and he said, what I learned was I had to pick up my tears and doesn't mean I'm over it. You never get over this. You just pick up your tears and you carry with you. Whenever you need to cry about something, you let it rip and you just go from there. And through that, I learned was I went through that because somebody's going to go through something and they're going to be in a really bad spot. And I was like, and my story's going to say something. And one of my good friends, his son was born. He had all heart issues. Had to be

flown out, flown to a specialized hospital. Wasn't sure if he was going to make it. And he's going through it and I call him and we're just on the phone and I'm telling him about my dark moments and what I was going through and son ends up surviving and a year later months later he calls me he's like yo that meant the world that you called and you was open and you told me all those things because I needed it and I was like bro I needed that yeah and I said and I did that and I told you that because I was like somebody else is going to need that and I was like there's no why I was like, we all search. When these bad things happen, we search for that.

And I was like, that's the why, man. Your testimony, when you testify that to somebody, they're going to get through whatever they're going through. I don't know what that is. And I was like, but I'm telling you, like, you're going to hear somebody or somebody's going to tell you something. And you're not going to be comfortable telling about your darkest moments. And I was like, and it's going to hit you that you got to go there.

And I was like, and when you go there, that person is going to go there with somebody else. And I was like, that's the, like, and that's what I think about PAC. Like, this community is that when you go through something, somebody tells you their testimony. And it's all within a community that we keep lifting each other up, that what we go through, we get through it. Those blessings that come to us, they don't just come to us. They go through us. So that blessing of whatever I go through, don't stop here. I got to send it along.

We got to keep it going. So I just try to live by that because that was a huge moment in my life of, like, again, some hard things as a kid that I went through my dad passed and all that. Grandparents, I've had grandparents as an adult when that happened, like, I'm living life, man. I'm in the NFL. I'm doing all these great things. And that happened. That stopped me dead in my tracks.

And to get through that, it took a lot, you know, and I just try to make sure that anything I go through becomes a testimony to somebody else to help them. Yeah. And I believe that's a big purpose in life for us to go through some tough times. 100%. 100%. I always look at life as like a chapter book. Chapter one, chapter two, you know?

There's going to be some fun chapters in there. There's going to be some. Yeah. And then at the end of the day, you close the book, the book's done. And that's it. That's your legacy. Exactly. And the more we all kind of lean into that as people and we lean off of each other off of that,

we're going to realize we're way more similar than we are different. Yeah, exactly. Yep. We need more of that, man. Yeah. So true. Facts. But appreciate the time, brother.

I really enjoyed the conversation, love everything that you guys are doing at Pact and, you know, being an inspiration to so many people. So keep doing what you're doing. Hey, man. Appreciate your services coming down and believe in the Pact. Absolutely. Definitely do, man. Appreciate it, brother.

Yeah, sir.