Stoic Wellbeing - Are You a Citizen of the World?

Episode Date: March 5, 2022

In this episode, I am back with my friend Kai Whiting, co-author of the book Being Better: Stoicism for a World Worth Living In. Kai is a researcher and lecturer in sustainability and Stoicism currently living in Lisbon, Portugal.If you’re into ancient ruins, you will love the beginning of our interview, where Kai talks about the research he conducted in Pompeii. And then we spend a lot of the conversation talking about what it means to be a  citizen of the world, a concept that was very important to the ancient Stoics.  Should we be traveling more or less? Should we adapt to local customs or stick to our guns? There aren’t any rigid rules in Stoicism. It’s more about living according to principles.    Hello! I'm your host, Sarah Mikutel. But the real question is, who are you? Where are you now and where do you want to be? Can I help you get there? Visit sarahmikutel.com to learn how we can work together to help you achieve more peace, happiness, and positive transformation in your life. Book your Enneagram typing session by going to sarahmikutel.com/typingsessionDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

A lot of us say that we want more meaning in our lives to be part of something greater than ourselves, to feel more connected to other people in the universe. This begins with becoming more connected with who we are and more self-aware of what's unconsciously motivating us. Welcome to Stoic Wellbeing. I'm your host to Sarah Megatel, an American in England who uses stoicism and other techniques to help my coaching clients become more present, productive, and open-hearted. I am here to help you to visit Stoicwellbeing.com to learn more. In this episode, I am back with my friend Kai Whiting, co-author of the book, Being Better Stoicism for a world worth living in. Kai is a researcher and lecturer in sustainability and stoicism. What a cool combination. And if you're

into ancient ruins, you are going to love the beginning of our conversation because Kai is talking about the research that he conducted in Pompeii. And then we spend a lot of time talking about what it means to be a global citizen or a citizen of the world. Kai has lived all over the world, so have I. Should we adapt to local customs or stick to what we know? Should we be traveling more, traveling less? There aren't any rigid roles in stoicism, which is a philosophy that Kai and I both try to follow. Stoicism is more about living according to principles. Let's jump right into my conversation with Kai. Before we got on this call, I had spent some time researching you and looking up some videos. And I heard you say that you have done research on how the ancient Romans lit their homes, which just sounded fascinating to me. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? Wow, you did dig deep. I like that. Yeah, so I wanted to combine sort of like, storism and environment or engineering in a strange way. So we're looking at, like, history doesn't always have to be about the kings and queens, Sarah. It can be about how

the common person, so to speak, lived. And I find that much more interesting, like how did the average or average person live rather than the wealthy? Because we hear a lot about what the wealthy did and they're, you know, what they like to look, you know, see and do and the kind of plays they might watch. But we don't really hear about the poor person or the, you know, the small industrial classes. What were they doing? So I really wanted to think about how a Roman Stoic would see the world, like literally how would they have seen the world? And because I think it helped me understand the philosophy, because sometimes we kind of, we know that Seneca wrote something or we know that Epititus wrote something, but we take it and we just apply it to our

lives and in our head, they're more or less applying it in the same way. And it was like, well, yeah, of course, we're humans. So there is an aspect of truth in that. But really, how did they see the world? So thankfully for us and not so thankfully for them, there was the volcanic eruption of Vesuvius, which left Pompeii and Herculaneum to Roman cities quite empty of people, but full of stuff. So we could actually calculate how many lights the average home had, because they just left the lamps there. And then they had taken some of it, so we could say, like, you know, some lamps had been taken, but most of what they had was just there, like literally frozen, or I guess melted in this case in time. And we just feel like, team and I, like, what does it look

like? Are they as poor as we think they are? And the answer was actually not in Pompeii and Herculeanian because it was a port. And when you have a port, or you had a port, you had wealth. So it was really interesting to see, because I assumed that people would just have really old lamps, like really old oil lamps. But we found out that when the oil expands, the old heats, it's expands the lamp. And because the lamp's made of like ceramics, it actually gets, you know, thinner and thinner, but it gets stretches. And then the handle breaks off. So an oil land would only last maximum for a year. So then I started to think about like landfill. They had a massive landfill problem because of all the ceramics, like they didn't really know

what to do with them. It wasn't just the lamps. It was how they, they transported these massive amounts of oil from one part of the Roman Empire to the other or like fish sauce, because I always thought that Romans ate locally and would eat whatever was local to them, but they didn't. Their economics doesn't function in the way that it does now for us, so it's a completely different concept, but they basically bought what they wanted from different regions, even though they could have got the similar fish shores just down the road. They just didn't do it. So it's really interesting that they had this like landfill issue with how they'd transported all these goods. And they chucked some under the Coliseum, like the Coliseum,

if you go under the foundations, it's full of all this sort of pottery. But it still has like one of the most ancient landfills as far as we're aware in the Western world. So I thought that was fascinating that their whole way of, you know, lighting their world and transporting their goods actually caused the waste problem. And we don't typically think of that in the contemporary sense. It's just like imagining all these people. And then we'd also like analysed the Georgian period, so 1820s London, because that's just before the height of the Industrial Revolution, so 1850s. So The most, Paris and London being the two, I would say, most developed cities of the Western world at that point. We wanted to know to what extent a Georgian, the average Georgian had more light and the average Roman in Pompey and Herculaneum.

Because that was a wealthy port city, but London was also pretty wealthy compared to other areas in the UK. And the answer was they actually had less, which I found incredibly surprising, Sarah. I would always assume that new is better, right? we have this thing. Innovation is new. Innovation is good. We should drive innovation. So it was quite interesting that there was innovation, but because of policy, saying political policy, people had less. So for example, I don't know if you read this part, but in the Roman period, you couldn't build a fence that blocks your neighbour's son. They really had a rule like they valued sun and natural lights. You couldn't do that. But in the Georgian period, you had things like

candle tax and you had window tax, which is why they bought. up the window. So poor people couldn't afford to pay the tax. They'd bought up their windows, and they actually suffered from a lot of deficiencies due to lack of lighting. There was a lot of medical doctors at the time saying that this is a massive problem, and in fact, they got rid of the candle tax from 1821. There's a lot of records about how many candles they bought, and then they said by 1831 that this is criminal because it's actually taxed the poorest in society. So it's just really interesting that 2,000 years before, a person would have access to, you know, more lighter. The other thing that we found is that there was like a trade-off. So whilst the Romans

used a lot of fuel, they didn't use a lot of materials in terms of their infrastructure, whereas the Georgians were much more efficient with their fuel, but not so efficient with their infrastructure. So it was like, we had to do an analysis not just of what they used, but how often they used it. So we're thinking about like the average working day in the Georgian period. We took things like the meals, because they're big users and churches, again, big users of lighting. So it was a really fascinating experiment, I would say. It took a year just to get the data. And also, I don't know if you were aware, Sarah, but the units are different. So we don't have standardized units in that period of time. That's true. I think it's 1835 we start to get standardized measures. So one, you know, they would say like one container of coal, right? But one container of coal in Newcastle would be different to Sunderland, which is what, like, I don't know, 8 to 12 miles. So it's like, what does that mean? And the idea is well, well, like bricks, people think that bricks are the same, but bricks in that period were different. So, like, you think, like, I was imagining a different type of fire brick, and it was quite

complicated to get over. Like, okay, I can't do the analysis based on the brick today because it's not the same brick. So it was just really, really, really interesting to see, like, okay, all the things I thought to be true, they're not. Wow, that's such an interesting project. And I imagine you were in the field for this, so you got to go to Pompey and... I did go to Pompey. yeah, we had to because we just couldn't see it. You know, you wouldn't be able to understand.

I mean, you could do it, but we really wanted to know what it looked like. I love Pompeii. I've spent a lot of time in Italy, and I love imagining what life must have been like back then. But I don't think I ever thought about, like, the lighting, so that was an interesting insight. It's, yeah, something so basic,

because we, you know, we're just used to turning your light on, but you can imagine if you couldn't turn your light on today at night. Yeah. even if you could have your computer on, if you could do that, you just couldn't have a light. You put like, what would our world look like?

It's just a completely different experience. And I think, like, they say something like, just one light bulb in certain places in Africa can be the difference between a woman, being able to marry who she wants to and being able to work where she wants to, because you was able to get that one hour extra of education.

Oh, God, that's powerful. That's really powerful. And they also say things like, I don't know if you know this, but if you don't have shoes, you typically earn less than $1 a day. The minute you get flip flops, you can earn $1 a day because you can walk to further along. And things like if you can get a bicycle, you can earn up to $5 a day.

And if you get an old banger, you can earn like $10 a day. So it's actually a real analysis. And enlightening is one of them, like literally, and it is women, actually. It's not necessarily men. Because I say whenever somebody says, what's the answer? I can educate women. It's always the answer. Always, always, always, always.

and like one hour extra of the solar lighting for women means her kids are educated because if the man is educated it doesn't necessarily mean it's terrible whenever it doesn't mean that the kids are and even in like the Islamic world women are predominantly educating the children

so if she's more educated she's more literate the children are more literate and so you get that accumulation of wealth and they can literally get themselves out of poverty so it's like yeah we don't need to do all these handouts what we need to do is like hand up.

We can throw money at someone. Like, how do we help her up? Like micro lending. Exactly. Kiva. I used to donate to them quite a bit. So my money is still on a roll there, I think. But yeah, I should revisit that site.

It's been a while since I've been on there. So what was your biggest takeaways from what you learned in your research? That's a really good question. Can you believe that no one's ever asked me that? Never take, you know, never assume that somebody thinks the same as you because you're not in their context, which is why Storism is very context-driven. I don't know if you've seen this online, but a lot of people say, is it strict to do this? Is it direct to say this? Is it straight to act in this way? And the answer in Storism is always it depends. So for example, you might say,

I don't know if you remember in chapter one we talk about should we drink cow's milk, right? And in Storism, the answer is not yes, nor no. So people want to know it's a yes or no answer, and the answer is it's not. It depends. So if I know that cows are being abused, perhaps I shouldn't drink cows milk, right? At the same time, if I'm not my, you know, my grandma's house, for example, when she would get offended if I didn't drink the tea that she'd just made and it would upset her, perhaps because I'm in a house and polite to drink that tea, right? There's a lot of things you have to think about. Who am I? Where am I? Can I educate my grandma on this subject? Is it worth doing so? Or is it if I'm going to say, like,

well, actually, I disagree with, like, Carl's milk because the way it's produced, will she see that as I disagree with her? Will that cause a rift in our family quite unnecessarily? Is there not a better way to teach my grandmother rather than by drinking the milk and then explaining it to her? Or alternatively, taking, you know, buying her, say, oat milk and letting her try it and then explaining to her that I like it. So there's never a yes or no. Yes, I'm glad that you brought this up, and I'm glad you brought up the specific example because in your book, which is called Being Better, Stoicism for a World Worth Living in, which you co-authored. You talk about principles and that we need to make stoicism work for us according to our principles rather than rigid rules. And I've heard you

talk before about your grandmother and I don't know if it was like milk and tea or about eating meat. But you had the principle that you were, I mean, I don't know exactly what your motivations were, but you did accept the tea from your grandmother. But I also am vegetarian and have been for most of my life. And I come from like a long line of cooks. My grandmother had a restaurant amongst other things. She was like an amazing woman, was state representative, but food was like a huge part in our life. And at one point, I wouldn't eat meat anymore.

Even as a kid, I didn't like it. But at a certain point, I made the decision not to you. And it was hard for my grandmother. And so when I heard you talking about it, I was like, oh, Kai made a different choice than I did. But I don't think you love your grandmother any more than I do. And I don't think I made, I'm not the better person because I chose to not eat it. But it really struck me that we were in like pretty much the same situation, but we had acted on different principles in in the time. And I think that's the beauty of hystericism, isn't it?

I mean, it's not, for example, it was my mum who she was basically really offended by the fact that I was not going to eat meat in her house right and that was a massive issue and I was living in her house at the time like temporarily but I was there and I just made the decision that I would only eat her roast beef on a Sunday so it's not like ate at her house every day but if she cooks roast beef so it wasn't roast chicken and it wasn't roast lamb but if she cooked roast beef I would eat it but I would only eat it at her house and then she basically floated on air because she was was going around telling everybody my son's vegetarian but he would eat my sunday roast dinner because he

loves it so much so she went around and told everybody that and then when my dad was trying to give me other things she was like no our son has told us that he only eats my beef so it was a way of being like I'm at your house I have to respect you like I'm not against you and actually she went out that next day and she bought loads of vegetarian stuff like literally she came back with like bags and bags of like vegetarian food, which would never have happened if I hadn't been like, okay, I'll eat this one meal. Yeah, and my grandmother ended up creating more vegetarian dishes as well, even though I had been full stop, like, no, I'm not eating this anymore. But I was kind about it. You know, I definitely made it known that it wasn't about her, but it was just about

my ethics of eating. And I wasn't like shaming her or anything. Anyway, everyone came around in the end. I mean, it's interesting what you say, because that's what people forget in those. The answer, one of the key questions that we ask in being very in Chapter 1 is, do I want to eat meat? And if the answer is no, and there's no, you know, you're not being unjust towards anybody by choosing not to eat it, for example, then that's a perfectly viable decision because you just said, I just prefer not to eat it. And that's perfectly reasonable, right? I mean, if there's not going to hurt any, well, we're not in the static sense, but in the non-sode, hurt anybody, quote, unquote, if it's not going to cause you to act in a vicious way, then, you know, a cowardly way or a, you know,

greedy way or an ignorant way, then there's no reason why your decision isn't as valid as mine. I just came to a different decision because I said, well, what meat am I willing to eat? Yeah. Under what circumstances? And you are, your answer, well, in the US, the answer is none. If you were living in a Pacific island for a week or two, you might eat fish, right? Because you'd be saying, well, the locals cooked it for me and there's nothing else to eat here except fish and coconuts.

Unless I'm going to eat coconuts all day, I'm going to have to eat the fish, right? So I think you'd make a different decision based on where you were, and that's why I think you and I both agree that it depends, right? Yeah, I agree that it depends. I probably would eat coconuts the whole time, but that's another story. But I mean, I think this is going along the lines of like principles and then the four roles that we have as human beings. So could you talk about what those are?

Yeah, so this comes originally from Panaitius. And Panaitius comes up with this idea that we have four roles. The only one that's universal to everybody. And the fundamental role is that we're all human. And we're all capable, you know, most of us are capable of the prototypical human, which means the typical human being which you would expect to find on, you know, if you have a wide, bell-shaped curb, the person who falls under that. Well, most of us have the capacity for reason.

And not all of us do. And that could be, I mean, there's an argument actually between a clienteat in quite simple. Like, if you're drunk, do you have the capacity for reason, right? So there's even an argument in the Stoics, like, how is it, is it, even drunk people, are they capable of reason? But basically, all prototypical human beings are capable of reason. And that reason is to know ourselves. So we are able to know what's true from ourselves, from our observations.

So not just how we feel about something, but really what we observe, and know what's true in the world. But there's also key roles like, who am I? What's my job, right? So apart from the universal role that we're all human, a key role is what knowledge we have, and the knowledge we have is dictated to us to a certain degree to the choices that we made in terms of our job. So if you, Sarah, came across a dying person in the street and you happen to be a doctor, you have the moral obligation to do the

best you can to save that person's life. But I also, as a non-medical doctor, who also comes across the same person's street maybe moments earlier, I also have the moral obligation to do all that I can to save the person's life. But in practical terms, what my saving of that life, may look like is picking up a phone and dialing either your number or an ambulance, right, depending on severity of where you are and severity of the person's injuries. Because if I try to do what you do, I will actually kill the person. So it would be a lack of self-control and it'd be very unwise for me to try to do all the things that you will do to save the best of life because I'm not trained. So in your role, you might have to check, you know, the airways are open,

and you may check that they're not in shock, put them on the side, keep them warm, but you may also depending again on what you have on you at the time, you may also do something a little bit more intricate. If I did any of those things, I might kill them. So in Storism, this is actually a really key point, that, okay, we're both universally human, so we have the obligation to use our capacity for reason, and how that reason gets used an American phrase to get cashed out depends on exactly who we've chosen to become, right? And even if you said, well, I didn't really want to become a doctor because my parents asked me to, I just did what they asked, you still did what they asked. But one of the key things is also your preferences.

So, for example, you may be a doctor, and you might say, but I've just come out of a 12-hour surgery, and I am exhausted. And I know that I can't do this. And I prefer not to do this because I'm too tired. So even though you're a doctor, if you've just come out of a 12-hour, let's say, brain surgery on somebody, you may not be in the best state to actually attend that person, and you may make another phone call. So again, just being a doctor doesn't necessarily mean that you have to do what you would have done if you were going on your way to work as opposed to your way. from work. I think that's a perfect example of how doing the right thing differs, depending on who you are and what your circumstances are. Yeah, exactly. And so one of the role of the roles that

we have is like, who, you know, who am I? Like, am I, for example, when I spoke to your relationship to your grandma, would be different to I have, if I had a relationship with your grandma. So she may offer me milk and you might feel comfortable to say to your grandma. No, I don't want to drink it, but I might not feel comfortable saying the same thing to your grandma, right? So there's also the key thing of who am I in terms of like which country am I in, which, which year am I in? What do I know? Because people often say to me things like, well, I know what it's like to be 21. And I say to them, you do, but you don't know what it's like to be 21 in 2020. Right. You only know what it's like to be 21 in, I don't know, let's say, 2010. So your view of what it is

to be 21 isn't the same. Okay, you can say to a 21 year or you don't know what it's like to be, you know, 35, let's say. But you don't know what it's like to be 21 right now either. And I find that that is really unhelpful when you say to people, well, I know what it's like to be there. Well, not really. And that's why we say things like it's not very stoic to say if I were in your shoes. Because if I'm in your shoes, my feet are a different size to yours. So it's a completely irrelevant statement actually to make because I will make different choices. Right.

If I'm in your shoot. I would love to hear more from you about what you think it means to be a citizen of the world because this is a very ancient concept. So the idea of global citizenship is to bring people under your wing, regardless of the imaginary border of, say, the US, Mexico or, you know, an ocean stretch that separates us to kind of say, yes, we are separated and you are French and I'm British and of course, historically you've had their issues, right, as two nations. But that shouldn't affect how I speak to you or, you know, talk to you. And I think that is what to me means to be a global citizen to see beyond those boundaries. but to also reflect that they are significant

because I wouldn't want everybody to speak English, for example. Storism isn't about having a universal language because we're a global citizen in that sense. And it isn't even necessarily about having, say, the European Union. It really is like, well, if the European Union is working towards the four virtues, then yes. And if it's not, we can be correct the European Union, yes or no, and to why extent. So people often think that we mean a global government,

and that's not the case. Like, this is why I was so curious about global citizenship, because people do say to me, like, oh, I keep forgetting you're American. And I'll say, oh, well, where do you think that I'm from? And they say, I don't know. I feel like you could be from anywhere. Like, you're just from everywhere. And I was like, yes, that's exactly how I feel.

I feel like I'm from everywhere. I feel like a citizen of the world. I don't feel like I am tied to one particular place. I mean, do you feel like is everywhere? I mean, do you feel like you are part of an Islamic country, for example? When you say everywhere, do you feel like everywhere Western or do you, I don't know if I lived in China, for example, do you also feel that you're also Chinese? Because I would say I also feel like I'm everywhere western wise, but I don't feel that I am Chinese having lived there. And I've lived in the Middle East and there are obviously differences there too, although I do feel closer to the Middle East and I did in China.

I felt like, oh my gosh, I don't understand. Do you feel literally like it could be anywhere or do you feel like anywhere within like the Western? Well, that's a great question. So thanks for pushing back. And I'm not sure I would say where I end up usually can feel like home pretty quickly. But like I've lived in England for 10 years, but I couldn't say that I feel English, even though I love living here. But I don't feel American either. Like I truly feel connected to every place, at least every place that I've been.

And I like the stoic idea. And it's something that I've always thought of just being universally. connected, like we're all connected on a universal level. We're all part of the same cosmos, if you will. It's about recognizing humanity. And for me, that's a really big part of it. And something that I've talked about on the show before is I feel like traveling is the greatest act of diplomacy because we see in the media, like the media in a lot of countries will portray like ex-country as being like totally bad and awful. And then people think of like, oh, everyone in this country is awful.

And I think we should definitely not judge each other by each other's governments. And so part of the citizen of the world thing is, yeah, just feeling connected to other people and having conversations with people at like a very ground level. It's interesting you say that I guess when you go back to America, what you mean is when you go back, you don't feel particularly American anymore. Is that what you mean just to clarify? Because you said you didn't feel very British, but you're English, sorry. and you didn't feel particularly American.

Is that when you go back, you feel like you know, you belong, but not in time? Well, I guess even when people ask me the question, like you had asked me, do I feel American and I don't? So there goes all my chances of being president of the United States someday. But yeah, I don't feel like I belong to one particular country. I mean, that's really interesting because my co-offer Leonidas, he is, I asked him, what's your number one against him? and he said, I'm of the cosmopolist first, but then I'm American. So, it's like, for him, it's very, very clear.

And I say, Jim, you love your country more than I love mine, which is hard because I love the queen. I know I've been brainwashed. I know. I know I love the queen for a brainwashed reason. And the Chinese thought it was hilarious. When I was living there, they're like, you've been brainwashed.

You say that we're brainwashed. You're not denying that I'm brainwashed. I am particularly brainwashed. You're denying your brainwashed. So we're having this argument about who is more brainwashed. Like, you love the queen. Why? They were like, why?

Like, literally screaming at me, why? I'm like, she's amazing. Why? Because she is. And they were like, what has she done for you? She's like, I was like, she's my representative. Like, the prime minister does something bad. I always have the queen.

I'm like, they couldn't get it. And I was like, I'm not asking you to get it. I'm not asking you to accept it. I'm not asking you to agree, but don't speak negatively about the queen. And then actually here in Lisbon, I had a conversation with a really good friend of mine. And he started saying something bad about the queen. I said, I'm sorry. if we're going to continue this conversation, we go outside.

We do not talk about the queen in my house like that. It was like really weird because I don't know the lady. I've seen her in front of me as she came to my university years ago. So I can say that I met her, kind of. I never spoke to her. It was such a very strong reaction, almost like she'd been sort of my mum or something. And I'm just like, no, like we'll take this outside. Like we have a conversation, but we're not having it here.

So I'm just wondering because I still feel like I've lived in, Colombia and China, Latvia, Costa Rica, the Middle East. And I still feel very English. Like, I still need my tea. I still need my crumpets. But at the same time, I don't feel that I'm English in some ways. Because I think, for example, I said that we can be quite xenophobic in the UK. I don't think we are particularly racist, but we are extremely xenophobic.

And I really dislike that because I'm like, it's just a passport. Because I was saying, like, once you've got your passport, you're British. Like, that's the one thing I like about being British. Once you've got that ever popular, you're British and it doesn't really, it doesn't seem to matter. We're in other countries that's just not the case. I love the fact that if you're born in America, you're considered an American and it doesn't matter. And I used to think that everywhere was like that. I didn't realize how unique that was.

Pretty much. Yeah, not entirely unique. I think Canada's the same. It's pretty unique. Yeah. So I love that. But like you mentioned defending the queen. Like, I'll defend.

the US to other people who are like, there's no culture in the US or like, you know, have you ever heard of jazz? Have you ever heard of rock and roll? You're welcome. Actually, you've got a really good point. I'm not thought of it like that. I don't, I don't say that you have no culture, by the way. I've heard it. Obviously, in the UK, we love saying that to you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's true. There's a lot of culture. I mean, do you, how do you find that British people say to you or English people say to you like? Oh, it's a case? Do you feel It's not usually just English people. I mean, you're traveling.

And because the U.S. was the highest power for so long, people feel, it's like almost celebrity status for certain, like, in the way that people feel like they can talk to you. Somebody might walk up to a celebrity and be like, oh, my gosh, you gained weight, whereas you would probably not say that to a regular person. And I feel like that has been, like, historically how people talk about the U.S. We'll just let it fly, like, anything that's on their mind. And so, you know, it depends on what they say. But if they say something that I think is inaccurate, I will tell them. But, yeah, I mean, countries kind of become part of your family, right? So even, like, I'll be the first to point out something of a flaw in the U.S.

I'll also point out what's, like, good about it as well. I mean, that's a very stark thing to do, isn't it? To say, like, like I said, I personally don't think we're particularly racist, having lived in men because people in the UK we like to say we are but you haven't lived in other countries you don't I speak three languages and I know I know what gets said I'm not going to name countries but I know what gets said and I have been in company and I know what you can say in other languages and you just cannot say that in English it just you just can't matter like but in other language the other language I speak you can say it right so but I do think we are incredibly

incredibly xenophobic so I try to distinguish that and people push back at me and go well, you would say that because, one quote, you're white. I'm like, that's not why I say it. I say it because I speak different languages and I know. But I would be lying to you if I said we are really good at integrating people from different nations. I mean, one of the issues about Brexit, I mean, not in terms of the vote, but in terms of now what's happened is that we are now treating EU citizens in unfair ways. And there's no reason for that. But we're using it as we tend to do in the government, so not an individual, but the government.

government tends to use any excuse to treat someone who's not British differently. But I also experience of that in the US. Like when you're at an airport in the US, you get treated very differently if you're an American citizen. As to you're non or what they, you call us like aliens, right? That's like the weirdest terminology. You're loving because it's true, right? Well, I would say airports universally treat people badly, especially foreigners. And I think it's true.

It's really sad that that is kind of the doorway for people, like, visiting new countries because I've experienced negativity myself. And, like, I can handle it, but I think of people who, like, this is, like, their one trip a year or even of a lifetime. And I'm like, oh, it makes me sad that your welcome was like, why are you here? Like, we're going to send you back if you don't have it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, come down, leave them alone. I'm not forward with it like that. You're absolutely right.

We literally is literally the gateway to another country and most of the time it's an inquestive gateway, isn't it? If you're not a national, I mean, if you're a national, it's like, hi, I don't know, I'm not American by the UK. Hi, welcome back. And it's really nice. But I do know that that's not the case for non-British. Again, it's not linked to skin color or religion.

It's linked to something as bureaucratic as a piece of paper. And I find that really challenging. In the US, I found it the same. Like they thought I was, I didn't get treated very well. And I nearly missed my flight because of it. So I'm like, yeah, this is, I think what you said is actually, I've never thought for it like that. Yeah.

Well, you and I had talked about couch surfing. And I once, so I, when I was becoming an Italian citizen, there was a time when I was waiting for that to go through. And so I still had to travel on my American passport. And I went to England during this time because I was going to fly to London and then eventually make my way up to Newcastle to visit a friend. And so I did couch surfing in London. So I'm at the airport. And previously, I had been flying within the other European countries. And so nobody was asking questions when I got to the border. Like if I went to Spain, you would just like get in.

But yeah, but the UK was different. And so I got like the third degree. This woman was like, I think you're only here because you overstayed like your stay in Italy. And she was like, where are you staying? And I was trying to explain couch surfing to her. And she was like, she's like, what? You are going to go sleep at some random guy's house. And she was like, let me see your wallet. How much money do you have? Like, what's going on? Like going through everything. Yeah. And then I was like shaking because I was like, nobody even really knows where I am. I didn't have a phone that worked in. This was like 10 or more than 10 years ago. So I'm like all alone. She was like, where's your documentation of like, like,

like when you're leaving. And I didn't have any of that. Like I was used to 24 hours. That's when you get access to that stuff. So anyway, she put a big stamp in my passport. Like, you need to be out within a week. You're not eligible to work here. And also, like, I think you are being really dumb. And, oh, and she also called the guy. She called the couch surfing guy. And he was kind of like, why is the airport calling me? This is crazy. Anyway, and then, but they were doing the same to the guy next to me who was there for a business trip. And they kept asking him the same question. And he's like, I don't know what you want me to say. Like, I'm here in business. So anyway, I got through, but it was really scary to me. I felt like I could disappear or something.

Actually, you've got, yeah, I think that's a good point about being in the citizens of the world is that, I said before, like a bit of grace to somebody. Like, also you tend to be quite tired, right? So I've, the only time I'd been worried about it was when I was in Cuba. And I was living in Colombia at the time, and I came on a Colombian flight. And they're like, why is this man? And the Pope was there that week, you see? He said, the security.

And I love taking pictures. I used to when I was, because now I'm very busy and I'm thinking about it. I like taking pictures of birds. And at the time, I was taking a lot of picture of birds. So I had a lens like that. And he was like, what are you taking pictures of? I'm like, birds.

I'm like, yeah, birds. And he was like, not the Pope. I'm like, well, maybe the Pope. Oops. I'm not supposed to say that. And they're just confiscated an Italian journalist camera because he wanted to take him to the Pope. I'm like, don't mention a pub.

And probably not. And also, why can't you take pictures of Pope? Yeah. Isn't that what he's there for? Like on some level. So we got there and then obviously we were followed as well. So they followed us at the airport. It was just very sort of stressful.

But when I actually sat and saw the Pope, because I decided I might as well, I wasn't going to kids of doing it, which was not my original intention. I actually had bought a Cuban flag. and I found Americans, and I gave the Americans the Cuban flag and the Cuban, the American flag, and we stood there. Because at the time, it was quite a tense moment. It was just really nice to have Americans hold the Cuban flag and Cubans hold the American flag and have that, you know, maybe our governments don't talk, but we can talk between us. Exactly, Kai. Travel is the best form of diplomacy. Perfect example of that. Yeah, and once you got through the gateway, you were able to, like, be with humans.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely. So I'll just ask you. one last question to finish off, though, what would you, if you could change anything about airports, what would you do exactly with them? Using a Stoic, like, principled approach, how would you change them? Obviously, you have to still have security, right? Oh, using Stoic principles. Well, I, because my first reaction when you were going to say that is to get rid of the security theater, which I think is really not doing anything. I don't think it's making people feel better. And it's really not making us more secure from like the research that I've read. So like let's be logical. I guess let's use some stoic logic. Like do we really need to take off our shoes? Do I really have to throw out this

bottle of water that I just bought five minutes ago? Like use reason. Let's bring in some reason and rationale and make it a more pleasant experience for everyone and obviously still be on the lookout and like be safe but not treat everyone as if they are the enemy. When you have this, you love traveling and I have loved traveling in the past, but I'm also aware of the climate issue. So I've actually like started to ask myself, like, at what point is it reasonable to travel? At what point, like, do I really need to see the Great Barrier Reef, for example?

Is that something that's fundamentally important if in doing so I'm actually destroying, literally, the Great Barrier Reef? How do you manage that? Well, I guess I do kind of like a balance in my life. I think of my life is kind of a balance. So I am pretty much vegan. I don't have a car. I've almost never had a car.

Only one year of my life. I don't have a dryer at home. I don't buy fast fashion. I hardly buy anything at all. And so I feel like I have done a lot on mitigated. Mitigated is a good word. And so I feel like that's counterbalancing. I feel like if I'm traveling with hundreds of other people instead of me just traveling on my own plus, I mean, maybe I'm making excuses.

But I feel like I'm living a pretty balanced life. And also I feel like the airlines are working to have a more carbon neutral experience. and I think they're going to get there and we might as well not put them out of business as they're trying to get there. I don't have an answer for you because I don't have the answer for myself. Like it's, I think like I just thought like

I could go less. Like I decided like not to go. I used to fly, well, I used to fly long time for work. But with this year of COVID where we like haven't been able to go, it's like, okay, what do I need to prioritize? What's important? And I think that's the key question is those are not to say you can't do this.

It's not about a checklist of bad or good. But there's a lot of people who want, okay, so you're bad because you fly. Well, no, because you might say, I literally, I zero everything else. I literally zero everything else so that I can fly because I'm a citizen in the world and I really like talking to other people

and I learn that way and I offset my carbon or I do other things. And I think that's the key thing and shows them. It's not about making excuses. It's about doing what one has to do. And evidently, if you don't have a car and you're vegan, and you've made those decisions precisely because you want to minimize your footprint, it's not about being, you know, hitting yourself with a hard rope and taking the skin off your back.

I think it is about balance. And I think that's what Stozo's an office. And then there's no, there's no right on answer. Because, you know, if you just said to me, like, oh, I go a cruise every week and I fly every week, we'd be having a different conversation. But you're like, I just choose carefully which trips I want to go on and then make sure that I go on those ones. and I don't go on like the weekend away, you know, like I used to. Yeah, it makes sense.

And also it's like what do you think is like important in life, not just from a pleasure perspective. And like travel is very pleasurable. Don't get me wrong. But then also like I know you guys in the book, we're writing how you think the climate crisis is like the biggest crisis that there is. And it is a big crisis. But at the same time,

there's a lot of economies that are quite dependent on tourism. And I like really like supporting local businesses and small, businesses and helping them grow that way. And I do believe that peace, like, even though this sounds like a radical, like, naive idea, I do think that world peace depends on us getting to know each other on an individual level. Like, you can read books about other places, but when you're actually having conversation, like I've literally, I mean, you said it to me yourself. You don't seem like an American, you know? People say that to me all the time. You don't seem like an American, and they mean it as the highest compliment.

I think this is why I get frustrated with like some of Greta Thunberg's message, not Greta Thunberg as an individual, but some of her message. I think like the idea of like everybody who's older is responsible and everybody's young is not responsible, I find that really unfair because there are a lot of kids who want to go to Disneyland. Being one of those kids when I was like, I think I was really ill

and I don't remember being particularly ill when mom said to me, you know, you'll be really ill when I asked you, if you get better, what do you want? And I was like, I want to go to Disneyland. I don't remember the conversation. Like, I must have been really old. I don't know. And she said, I hope you didn't say that. I hope she'd said anything about that because it was so expensive at the time. Yeah. And that's where we went. And I just feel it's oversimplistic to say young people are

completely innocent and old people are completely guilty. Because there are a lot of older people in this world and you'll know a lot of them that have never traveled. Right. And they'll go, yeah, but she means when she says that, the message means this. I'm like, well, if the message means that, then you need to clarify it. It's too simplistic. to say that somebody who flies is an evil person and somebody who doesn't is a wonderful person. I don't like that message. I think the environmental message actually gets what you've just said really diluted because it puts people like, well, hang on a minute, if I've done ABCD and I fly because, you know,

I don't fly excessively, but I go, let's say you go two or three times a year and I, you know, make sure I support local businesses and, you know, we were talking a little bit about how you support, you know, women's businesses. And you wouldn't be able to do that if you hadn't gone there and seen it with your own eyes. And I think that's the problem when you have a blanket message. And the power of socialism, real real socialism is not the blanket message. It's like, okay, what you just said, like, how can we balance that?

How can we, if we're going to fly, because that's something that we really want, how can we do so in a virtuous manner? Is there a virtuous manner? And I think, yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd be able to go to Australia just because I want to see the Great Barrier Reef, because I think it would defeat the object. because that's originally why I wanted to do. So I'm like, well, I'd actually be killing the Great Barrierie, so it doesn't make any sense. But let's say, like, you know, somebody in my family got married there, and I really want to be there for them because I'm related to them and they want me to be there.

And then you go, well, yes. Then stay in Australia to do everything in Australia for those three weeks and never go back. So I think does that make sense to you as well? Is that how you see? Yeah. Well, and it goes back to the decision you made to like eat your mother's Sunday roast. It depends on the circumstance and everything else that you have going on. And there's not like one rigid rule for everyone to follow in life.

It's living according to your own principles. Yeah, the only rule is living according to nature or living according to this principle. That's it. That's the wrong rule. Before I let you go, are there any tips that you want to leave people with to live a sustainably stoic life? Yeah. So I think the number one tip is if you do buy the book, like, think about it from your perspective.

I'm only giving you a framework. And I think it's like it's a Stoic framework based from my perspective, right? And layout's perspective. But you ultimately have to live it. So don't use it as a step-by-step plan. The other thing I have is just a call to people like not necessarily by the book, please ask your local library for a copy so that people who lost their job in the pandemic don't feel that they have to choose between essentials and the book.

So if you do have a local library or you're a student or a lecturer, You can ask your university library or in your local library or somewhere else where they're buying books. Please do so because I wouldn't want anybody to be in a position of wanting to read it and not being able to. Well, thanks so much, Kai. Where can we find out more about you? So there's Kai Whiting on Twitter and there's stokekai.com. And I respond to all emails that are reasonably sent to me. So if you've got any more questions, I'm happy to answer that. All right. Well, thanks so much, Kai.

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