Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 17: Cold Water and The Edge

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

**Content Warning : This episode discusses suicide**Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'Between Times' by dodieStream it here : https://ffm.to/betweentimes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? What's your favourite day of the week? That's an interesting question. Saturday. So I get up very early and go swimming. Most mornings. How early are we talking? I get up at 4.30.

That's quite early, isn't it? So on a Saturday, I don't have to do that. And what I like about Saturdays is that you can have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. It's a good time to have a good time. a Saturday, I don't have to do that.

And what I like about Saturdays is that you can have a day without obligation, if you want to. Whereas in the week there's work, there are obligations that you make to yourself, or I make to myself, as a kind of disciplined life. Then on Saturday, I don't do that and that's why I like Saturdays. It's a really great feeling. What's it like to wake up at 4.30 out of choice? Well, I've been swimming outside for a long time and then in lockdown, I wanted to carry on swimming. So a friend and myself decided that we would go when it was dark, when nobody knew we were doing it. So that's when we started legally swimming in lockdown.

Did you say legally or illegally? Illegally. Oh illegally. Fantastic. And I'm only saying that because this is anonymous. It is, truly, because you haven't told me or noticed there's no way I can know it. No. And it was really wonderful. So, we just kept doing it.

But we like to go when it's quiet. You leave the house and it's dark when you get there. So, you're swimming in the dark, and then you get to see the moon and the stars and the silhouettes of the trees, and it's a different world, really. And so it's really wonderful. It's like living in London differently. Tell me about the person you do it with.

I'm intrigued. She's a musician. Okay, and you've become, this is a thing you do together, to swim early. Yeah, so I'm an artist, this is my hobby. I teach and I make other paintings. So just for the benefit of the tapes, when you say this is my hobby,

you are currently doing watercolor painting, as we speak. Yeah, so I'm actually trying to teach myself the technique, but I'm also practicing what it's like to put paint down and to see how colors respond to each other the moment it all goes wrong. So it's quite interesting. Yeah.

But yeah, you are a teacher yourself. I am, at a post-graduate level. Okay, I was just wondering, given that you're very pro teaching yourself what you thought of other standardised forms of education. I actually think kids should do music and art and develop relationships with the world and with each other and nature rather than acquire knowledge and facts that they'll never need again in their life. So it annoys me that the arts are denigrated really in education as if they

are about amusement and enjoyment and as if they don't really teach you anything beyond that. I mean I've got four kids so I have some knowledge. They're all grown up. You definitely do. But maybe I'm naive because I don't live in the real world. What have you, I mean four children now they're kind of out the other end. What are you most pleased you've done with them? Oh crikey, that's a really hard question. That is isn't it? Yeah. Sorry, is that too hard?

I'm not sure. I don't know if I think in those terms actually, if I'm honest. The fact that they're all alive is actually quite an achievement I would say. For sure, is there any particular reason you say that? Well, because, you know, I've known a number of young people who have killed themselves. And one very close friend whose son was a very close friend of my son. And so, once that happens, it sort of puts a different perspective on things. Of course. Yeah.

What's I like to do with as a friend of someone? I mean, how do you get through that? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how people do get through that. I mean the sad thing is that I know of about four or five young men, not, I don't know, I haven't known them but through friends of my children and extended, you know, group of friends who have killed themselves. Can you pinpoint anything related to their gender there at all? I mean, you know, is this?

They were all boys. They were young? Yeah, young men, yeah, yeah. You know, what is it about being a young man? Do you think this is a modern phenomenon? As in what I mean modern? As in, you know, when USA 15, could you remember this being an issue? No, I can't. I mean, who knows, but It does feel like a very challenging age that we live in.

When you think of politics, the environment, the system that seems to suck money, which ends up in creating billionaires. And the idea that we are all powerless in the face of that. That kind of a global kind of consciousness, it feels that's quite, I can't imagine that that it was something that characterised life in the past where things were much more locally kind of coordinated. Now I don't know, it might be just another version of how you lose yourself. You know, you can lose yourself locally as well as globally. I wonder if there's more ways to lose yourself in

today's world than there have been in previous ones. I don't know. And there's less, you know, there is just less community naturally. You know, boring thing to say, but obviously social media is like a very kind of insular thing. It's not a... fundamentally it's not connection is it? And in an odd way it's the opposite. I mean that's something of the last ten years which has happened. I mean, it's a community. But communities can be quite alienating as well. Oh, of course.

I just don't know. I think it's really difficult. Yeah, oh, really? I mean, we could be on the bench a long time and not really figure it out. I think if there was more education about, which it wasn't to do with facts and knowledge and competition and pressure,

that was more poetic and about relationships. I think we'd be better armed to deal with these things, because we'd respect ourselves and the world differently. And I'm sure that would help, somehow. Yeah. I'm sure it would. Do you think maybe people or younger people don't get enough space to figure out who they are? Maybe people are younger, people don't get enough space to figure out who they are.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely, definitely. Now, I am trying to give space to my kids for them to find out what they want to do. So, to go back to your other question, I suppose I could be proud of that. Is it difficult to give your children space when you feel like maybe you want to intervene sometimes and go, oh, are you sure you do want to do this or what? How do you? No, I haven't actually.

I don't. I don't. You found that okay? You haven't struggled with that? I found that absolutely okay. I think it's partly because in my life I've tried to be an artist. I've tried to be an artist. I've tried to survive, I've tried to find a way of life that enables me to paint.

And I was lucky because I had government support in a way. Social housing, signing on the dole, all those things which artists and musicians of a certain generation Used very productively very creatively You know my kids don't have that So how can you how can I would I do think that? to be Free to choose what you want to do as much as you can,

how can, that's got to be the number one priority. Can you describe, just for people who are, if they're listening to this, who are younger, you said, you know, there was a time when the welfare state allowed you to be an artist fully. Can you maybe describe that in like, if it helps people understand what used to be possible? Well, what used to be possible is that you could squat. You could sign on the dole for quite a long time.

You could get housing benefit. You could maybe earn a bit of cash. In that time, those supports helped a lot of people to find their way and they are people now existing in the, you know, as artists, as musicians and so on. So that seems to me like a really good use of public money to me. It's no good talking about this for young people because they'll just go, oh, wish it was still like that now. But the way things have changed have made it very difficult because there's no support there. Having a place to live and if you can't afford the rent to have that paid for you is I think a fundamental right that's been taken away from people in this country. The

system says housing has to be really expensive and you have to find the money for it. I mean, it's wrong to me. I just think it's absolutely appalling what's happened, housing particularly, I think. So, yeah, it's no good. It's not very helpful for young people. Sorry, young people.

Sorry, young people. Oh young people. Sorry young people. Sorry young people. Sorry young people. Oh God. Sorry young people. What would you, I mean, do you ever think, you know, if I was put in charge, this is how I would turn it around? Oh God, well. I don't know, do you? There are various things you can think of. And there's so many things they don't know, do you? There are various things you can think of.

And there's so many things they don't do. Priorities are wrong, I think. I mean, yeah, it's silly talking about politics, really. Yeah, because it's definitely the road to nowhere. I'm struggling here with the water. In your painting. Not a here with the water. In your painting? In my painting, yeah. Not a general struggle with water.

No, it's just, the texture's wrong, it's not flat enough. You know, you can blame me. I've thoroughly put you off. No, I do it, I mess it up anyway. It doesn't matter if you're talking to me or not. I feel better now. When you see a body of water, do you want to get in it? But do you know what? I think they're missing a trick here

because they could have an outdoor swimming club. Maybe I'll do a gorilla swim one day. Maybe I will. This is your thing now. They do it in different places. They're a gorilla swim one day. Maybe I will. This is your thing now. Let's do it in different places. The gorilla swimmer. Gorilla swimming. It's quite good fun actually. Would you like to be a cult leader of gorilla swimming? No. I'm not a leader. Definitely not. You're not a leader?

No. I know that I'm a more second in command type of person. Maybe those are the true leaders though. Maybe. What is the, try and talk me through like the allure of cold water swimming. Ah. What does it mean to you? I can really bore on about that forever.

Well, give it a go and I'll stop for you if it gets boring. Um, it's thrilling on a kind of very physiological level. I think it gets boring. It's thrilling on a kind of very physiological level. Apart from that, it is the relationship with nature that has grown in me since doing it. So watching the wildlife and the trees and the changing seasons, and also the dawn and the different skies and the weather. Some mornings, well, it's beautiful.

Most often it's cloudy, but even in that the sky can be full of colour. And because I swim with somebody when she's a musician, she opens my ears to the sounds and I think I open her eyes to the colors. It's a real privilege actually. Well that wasn't boring at all. Oh good. That's all too long. Good, okay. How do people take a plunge in the full cold? I mean how do you learn to get good at duck-chucking yourself into really cold water? Well, your body actually adjusts to the cold. This is to do with the climatization. So you wouldn't jump in to cold water. You risk killing yourself by drowning, actually,

because you hyperventilate. And then you can get hypothermia very quickly. So you don't do that. You start in April, or you start in the summer or when it's manageable. And apparently it takes about a year really to for your body to really adjust to that. Wow.

Yes, and it depends who you are. I'm the kind of person that pushes myself to the limit. So I have become almost hypothermic and I have to watch that a bit. Whereas some people, they're just happy to do that tiny bit and they don't want to feel the edge. It's that edge that... Do you do this at other parts of your life? I do marathon running. Okay. You like the edge? I like the edge, yeah. It's all about the edge, isn't it? Not the one in you too. No, in a sense it's all about the edge, making art. Yeah, you've got to... This is true. You know, it's that edge where things happen.

It's the edge where things go from something you intended maybe or something that you could decide upon and then when something happens that works but you didn't intend it you couldn't see it it was that kind of instinctive intuitive world appears that's kind of what the stake is always so So what I'm doing with my watercolors, I'm trying to find a way of painting them that leaves things open enough for something to come in and one day it will. That's really what I'm trying to do here. What would you say to, you know, if someone were to be listening to this and being a kind of like,

well I'm not the kind of person to take things to the edge of stuff and yeah what would you say what would you say the benefits of trying? It's, well it's newness isn't it, it's about the new, not just the different version of something but because it's about the future as well isn't't it, in a way? Suddenly the world's changed, and maybe you can hope in a different way, because you're not just following the patterns and the knowledge that you already have. Because the world is always renewing itself, really, isn't it?

It's in flux, but we tend to fix it all the time into the things that we know we want to do, or ideas about who we are and what we want. And then suddenly something else comes into play and oh, it's not actually like that. Maybe I've got to think differently. You mentioned the future. Yeah. What does your future look like? Do you think about your future?

I like running and swimming and making art more and more. LAUGHS And that's what I want to do more and more. Yeah, that's kind of... Are you a grandparent? No, unfortunately not. That's what I'd like as well to happen. What kind of grand would you be?

I'd like to be a really fun, interesting, exciting granny. Think that's possible? Yeah. Definitely. Exciting granny. Think that's possible? Yeah. Definitely, with what you've said, you generally do. I'm not going to do any more to that painting because if I do any more, it's pointless. If I do any more, it's pointless. You can remember it as the one that you did,

attempting to answer lots of questions at the same time. Could have been a great... What would happen if this was the best one you'd ever done? No, no. They've always failed. That's why I'm saying I'm not bothered. It's good to fail. Yeah, it's just doing it is the most important thing. Totally agree. And I think I'll come back again, actually. Yeah. Because what's nice is the light on the trees. It is lovely actually. And I do

have a habit of painting the same scene over and over again. Not very edgy of you. Well no you see that's a misunderstanding. Because you see it's never the same twice. It's never the same twice, the painting's never the same. And you're not the same. And you can find the edge inside. Whereas if you're always on the outside, you know, with a new scene or something, sometimes you never can find it. I don't know.

I'm going to ask you, can you think of something you do, just as part of your daily routine, apart from your 4.30 swims? Do you think no one else does? Or only feel like very much something that only you would do? Is that what you mean? Give me an example. What do you do then? What do you do that you think in your daily life nobody else does?

Sometimes, this is a bit embarrassing, sometimes I say, before I go to bed I say good night world. I also sometimes play imaginary cricket or table tennis. I see balls coming towards me and I hit them away. Anyway, so this kind of thing, I mean, I always see them. I don't mean, I'm too boring. Let's try this for the last one. If I say these words to you, greatest day of your life. Yeah, oh my God.

Oh my God, He said the words. Do you think you could try and muster an answer? No. How about second grade today in real life? I don't want to have to do worse. Let's not do worse. You can't do worse. I think obviously people say having kids, don't they? Yeah, but let's not do that. I'd be boring.

I don't. I don't. You've had too many. You've had too many. I don't. Also, it's so dramatic. It's so encompassing. You can't really take it in, I suppose. You can't take it in. It's so physical. It's so incredibly mentally bonkers. It's kind of other, very other. It's other, very other. So let's rule those out. Yeah. So let's next after that.

Yeah, I remember I got accepted onto an art workshop in America. And I remember being there thinking, oh, this is amazing, because it felt like I'd had my work fully appreciated. And I was going to, it was a long time ago, I thought, oh, this is going to be it. I'm going to, you know, the start of something. It felt as if I'd been kind of vindicated. I was being supported. That was great.

And I am going on another, I have got accepted on another sort of residency next year. When that happens, I'm imagining I'll feel absolutely wonderful when I'm there. So I think it's those professional, I think because you struggle, lot, I do anyway. I'm very committed to what I do, but I don't really get any success really. And so I think that's hard because it's hard financially obviously, but it's hard because what I do feel so important and it's not important to anybody else and

that's hard you know that's why success can be important not not just in terms of sort of money or status but just in just because then your work is integrated into the world, it has its place in the world. I think that's kind of what I'd hope for. Well, I hope there's residency, because it's great. Yeah, it's going to be great. Yeah, fantastic. Fully great. Wonderful.

Yeah, it really will. Okay, last question for you. What are you going to do next? Today. Either today or just generally. I'm going to prepare for my residency, which involves certain things on a practical level, but also in terms of a certain mindset for going back into the studio. So that's what I'm going to do next. But I'm kind of doing that already. So is that next or is it? Well, it's, yeah, yeah, that's next enough. But next I might go and find another view, I don't know. I might go home. I've got to do something with my son, actually. Maybe I'll go and do that.

See, it's lovely painting a lake because you look at it and it's very interesting. You know, it's still amazing. Silver lines between times Find me there with my friend And the heavy things that never end Hear the birds and don't forget to breathe Why can't they see their face to the wrong way? Come break the rules, dangerous foes In pain lies truth and beauty too There's a world not too far On the edge of the dark

Orange glow, silver lights between times