Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 23: The Balletic Lawyer

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : Another Home by afromerm Listen here : ---------------------------Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? What's your favourite day of the week? That's a good question, do you know that? Because every day is the same. There is no week, it's just a day. Daytime, night time. That's how I see things. I don't put a label on something. Every day is Tuesday. There you go. Every day is Monday, every day is Wednesday. Do you see? The days of the week is only put there for a commerce calendar.

So I can't have a favourite day. I completely see. I like that. You've completed it. You completed the question. What is... given that all the days can be anything, it's all just every day is a day. What is your idea of a day really well lived? Peace. Live in peace, man. That's it. There's too much.

I mean, I do the legal and law stuff, so I see the fictitious world and the illusion that we actually live in rather than reality. You see, I also read the Bhagavad Gita, I read the Vedanta, I read the Atma Bodha, you see, to understand the self. And if you don't know the self, the outside world, is it just an illusion, you see, in that certain sense? If you could take me from more, I want some few practicalities in there. Okay.

Take me from the morning, waking up to going to bed. Morning. Obviously, you've got to move around. Perfect. Okay. Morning. What's the idea of a perfect day live? Can you describe it to me? Getting up, having a juice, jumping on the bike, taking a little ride. By the way, I get up at four a.m. So just do some relaxing work, think about the day before, come here to the park, feed the ducks, read the book,

go home, look after my dad, well, do bits of chores with my dad, because I'm out with my dad as well, helping him, and then yeah, by that time, evening times, come in, settling down, read, bed by half-night, really. That's kind of like a perfect day. What was the point in your life where you thought you wanted to find more peace?

I mean, there must have been a turning point where you thought, you know what, I'm gonna look more inward and figure this thing out. I think that's when I was about, I think I was about 18. I went into martial arts and that was kickboxing, just to find my inner self and my peace and discipline myself. Then I went to study ballet contemporary dance. I'm a ballet contemporary dancer, Sadler's World, used to dance for them, studied at the Laban and everything's about that, it's dance.

I'm a dancer, so everything's inward and everything's focused because when you're dancing you're in a different space completely. But I study a little bit of your astrology and stuff and I've done my chart. Now, when you find out what your north node and your south node is, that's kind of like your journey. Your south node brings you into this life, what you came in with, and your north node and your south node is, that's kind of like your journey. Your south node brings you into this life, what you came in with. And your north node is that you're heading towards.

Now, everything I'm doing, as I said, different legal and about the laws and getting out of the system and blah blah blah, et cetera. Now that's my south node, because my south node's in Virgo. So that makes me a lot responsible and organized and everything's in order and get this done, get that done. But I'm heading towards my north road in Paises which is become a guru, live in Thailand as a monk.

But now I understand why I took and made them decisions when I was younger because that's my journey I'm heading towards. But it's all about discipline and I think it was about 18. Is there something that happened where you decided, or just the age? But it's all about discipline and I think it was about 18. Yeah. Is there something that happened where you decided? Or just the age? Not actually happened but because of the school and stuff I went to, I went to a bad school. What made it bad? Because the teachers weren't disciplining the young ones.

We all ran haywire when we were younger. What kind of stuff are we talking about? Just don't even go to school. Come round here, smoke weed, whatever, blah blah blah, when we were younger. Do you see? What kind of stuff are we talking? Just don't even go to school. Come around here, smoke weed, whatever, blah, blah, blah, when we was younger. So it's like, okay, we've got to get out of that because all that's going to end up to what we're seeing nowadays is the young people

and they're ending up in prison. With me, I was... The surrounding and what I was surrounded by and got myself into, I could see myself going that way. So I was put into like a group after school. I think that was kind of like a turning point to say, well, look, because I take knowledge from my elders as well. Do you see I'm 54 now, but my elders, when I was younger,

they would always try and keep you on path in a certain sense, but you've got to do that for yourself. So you've got to know thyself. and if you're not knowing the right knowledge, then how you're meant to make moves forward. Where do you stand in your life now? You're 54. What does it mean to be 54 now? You're old, man. Look at that old geezer. I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, actually. Similar thing. I'm mixed race. My father's from Jamaica, my mother's from Yorkshire. So I've always been on the middle. I've never been accepted by the blacks, I've never been accepted by the whites,

even though I am white, even though I am black. Do you see, in that certain sense? But I've never been accepted like that whenever there's a score. So I've never really had too much of close friends in a certain sense. And again, when you go through nursery into infants, into juniors, into secondary, you're losing friends

and you're gaining friends and you lose friends and you gain friends and that's a constant thing. But through that I saw that you can't keep friends because friends will always go in and out of your life. So you're always on your own, especially when you grow up, you might meet a partner, your friends around you, you might go out drinking with the lads, just see when you're in your 30s or whatever and then they they depart because they've built their families or whatever Do you see what I'm saying? So it's non-attachment. You can't attach yourself

So you're saying to me that you feel like you don't quite have enough friends at the moment I've got loads of your life. So I don't I want to always move Acquaintances who I have at, a lot of them are my students, a lot of them associates, just see what I'm saying. There's not many people I can sit down with and have a meal with and talk with like me and you now. There's a few. You say you've struggled to, or like naturally you haven't formed many attachments, right? Has there been anyone that you have formed a really strong attachment to which didn't work?

Yeah. Anything that kind of burnt you? Ex-girlfriends. Yeah. Any in particular? Well, most really because I'm a cancerian. I wear my heart on my sleeve. What's the trademarks of a cancerian?

You're the mother of all the signs. So you're the emotional one. You're ruled by the moon and the moon is your emotions. So I'm ruled by emotions. I'm an empath. So are you checking the moon and the moon is your emotions. So I'm ruled by emotions, I'm an empath. So are you checking the moon regularly about the movement? Well, in a way, yeah, always. Full moon was last night.

It's emotion, you feel it. It's more of a feeling. It's really difficult because it's just coming back to finding the self and knowing what the self is. Everything else doesn't matter. And that's why we're distracted on the outside world, so we don't get to know ourself. Everybody's attached to their name.

You don't have a name. You can't attach yourself to your name. That's what gets you into trouble. You don't have a name in law. That's the problem. Show me a lawful certificate of your name. I don't have one. There you go.

Well, not on me. No, you don't have one. Because the documents you have are all legal. But who gave you that? The system gave you that. So what should I, what should my parents have done? Your mum and dad should have gave you your name, but they didn't. They gave you your name to the birth registrar. Oh I see.

Do you see? So you think ideally just don't hand it in? Well they shouldn't do it, but they're told and they're threatened you're going to get fined if you don't give the child name. So what happens if I didn't, so let's rewind, if I didn't hand in my birth certificate. There you go. You're not in a legal system. No one can do anything to you. I'm totally untouchable. You can basically, that's what I am now.

I went and claimed back my name. Oh I see, so you went and asked for it back. There you go. Are you allowed just to be like, can I have it back? Yeah. They don't have any problem? Yeah. Well now that means you can just do anything? Yep. I have it back? Yeah. They don't have any problem? Yeah.

Well now that means you can just do anything? Yep. As in what do you mean by anything? Anything. No one can touch you because everything on the face of the earth is done by contracts. When did you become aware of all these things? 30 years ago. When did the penny drop?

In 2015 when I went and bought my name as a limited company, I brought every contract. You haven't claimed that name. So does that mean you got a new name now? No, I've got the same name. I went to company's house and bought my name. So all this but also ballet? Yeah, ballet. What an amazing combination of things. But that's what I'm saying to you. I went and studied all my different subjects. Now I'm not really doing any of them jobs. When I look at my chart, I'm meant to be a lawyer.

Really? And everything I'm doing is what the chart says I'm doing. Do you see? I do see. There you go. It's like change, but not a huge change. If we can drift towards ballet for a minute. What did ballet teach you? Would you recommend it to people? Imagine someone listening and they're like, ballet, you've got to do that. What would you say to them? I'm going to perfectly answer you this one, there's a couple of things. First of all, understanding your body and know what the body can do. You asked a brother to put his leg up

there man, it's like, you see he's like breaking his back man. I'm still what 54 and I'm still nearly I'm still what, 54 and I'm still nearly, what? Nearly in box splits. Yeah, that's a full split. That's incredible. You see, but that keeps my body limber and it keeps me feeling young. Yes. You see? And that's the key.

So you say dance is the key to youth. Perfect, perfect. How often are you dancing? Everyday, that's why I'm here. I'm waiting for a young lady now to come here so we can just practice our dancing. She's always late. Thanks to her, otherwise we wouldn't be able to touch chat. What's been your most memorable ballet moment in your life, would you say?

My injury. Because it took me out of my dancing. Oh no. End of my second year at ballet school. Went down, tore my cartilage ligament. I had two thirds of my second year at ballet school, went down, tore my cartilage ligament, had two thirds of my cartilage and ligament cut out, and had to put me out for the next year. If that never happened? Oh, I'll be on, because I was a dancer with Sadler's Wells, Lillian Bayless Youth Dance Company, just before performing in Sadler's Wells and

stuff. It's been a good journey. So that was the moment. Yeah. How long did it take to recover mentally from that moment? I'm still not over it. Yeah. Still not over it. Is that such a blow? It is. Especially what you might have become in that field. It is but as I said my natal chart told me I was meant to be a lawyer solicitor so did that happen for me to come out of that? I see. Sometimes when I'm doing these things, because obviously people are listening, they've got no idea where we are. We don't need names of the place, but in terms of what's around us, can you describe what you can see in front of you and then what it makes you feel? Okay, so we've got a lake with ducks, geese, Canadian geese, English geese, Egyptian geese. We're sitting under pine trees and...

children in the distance in the playground, couples walking, holding hands. And it's peaceful and it's nice, you know. It makes you feel at one with the oneness. If I could say it like that. It should be described. At one with the oneness. At one with the oneness. Do you have children? No. Is that a decision or was that just how it started?

Yeah, that was a choice. That was a decision. Can you take me through that decision? I mean, again, I need to understand me first. I can't start running around trying to look after something that I don't even understand me. Sounds like you understand yourself quite well now. So maybe you're ready now. Maybe, maybe. But again, through...

So you wouldn't say no if... I wouldn't say no. I might, if I find a young lady or whatever, because I'm single at the moment, so if I find a young lady, I can say, well, okay, cool. And have that understanding of becoming a father. That's the only difference between me and my brothers, in a certain sense, is that they are fathers.

Interesting. Do you think that separates you guys in some way? Definitely, definitely, definitely. You a good uncle? Well. What kind of uncle do you try to be? It's a funny role. It's a weird one, because children, animals,

they just come to me. Like me. Just the energy. And there's no more, not animal, not a child, but it still comes. And I think it's the energy and the frequency you have with kids and stuff like that. And I'm very playful like that anyway. It's all dancing. Like the kids, they're all dancing.

There you go. I bring my speaker down every Saturday, we're down at the park, everybody's there, dancers are coming down. Do you know what I mean? So do you feel any responsibility as an uncle like do you feel like away? Again yes but again no it's hard to talk about because in one respect like with my brother he knows what I'm like with kids and he knows that kids come to me so is that a bit of a sense a jealousy? Do you see what I'm saying? Because it's complicated for you. It is, it can be.

Even though me and him. Sounds like you're. Wait this way, them two, my two brothers, were into football. I've got a sister, she's the eldest. Now my sister wanted another sister when I was born. Did she get one? No.

So she used to dress me in ribbons and night dresses. You were the other sister? There you go. So I was brought up by my sister, and I'm very understanding of emotion and feminine, because me and my sister were always together. I used to plait her hair and everything. Beautiful, yeah.

And that's why I think I went ballet school, because I was always surrounded by women. Not being a player or anything like that, but I understood women because it was my sister. I mean, it sounds like you've just always had a fairly tricky relationship with your brothers. Yeah totally. So they've been in one kind of camp and you've been in another. Completely different upbringings for me and my brother. So it pushed you further apart. Do you think your relationship with him, well with

your brother sorry, do you think they can be kind of healed? There's nothing wrong with our relationship that's the thing. It's just where it is. It's just who we are as humans and they live in different lives. But we are very close. When we come together we're very close and we're very loving. But when we're apart, it's like, okay, he's over there, he's over there, whatever. How often do you come together? Me and my brother, we live at home with my dad. My dad's fine, my dad's about 92. Oh, he's doing well. Yeah, he's still up and walking around,

in the house anyway. Yeah, how'd you get on with him? What's your relationship like? Perfect, I mean, I don't- What do you think about him? We all love our parents. Do we? Well, I don't know.

Not everyone. Not everyone. Well, okay, you love them to give in your life. Out of all of them billions of sperm, you motherfucker made it. Do you see what I'm saying? you made it. We've got to thank you for that at least. Because we're here to do a purpose. We're here to have a purpose or whatever. What is your dad's purpose? I'm not sure. I think the thing about it,

I don't really know. I don't really have a strong relationship with my father in a certain sense. What does your dad think of your life generally? What has he ever said anything about? He's cool. Obviously, you sound like you have quite a different kind of life and a very varied life. Well, the thing about it, he's never put any rules on us. He's allowed us to just go and do what we do. That's good. But don't bring the police to the house.

Is that the big rule? Just see. Don't bring the police to the house. That's got a low bar. Do you see? Yeah. And that's it. Go out and do it yourself, do what you're going to do. Did anyone ever bring the police to the house? Yes. Me, my brother, but it was nothing major. That's the thing. It's just a silly thing. anything. I mean, at the time when you were young, so 50 years ago, having a white mother and a black father, was that unusual for them? How rare was that? A lot of the black families, or a lot of the white families, they would go into church, a white mother and a black father. Was that unusual for them? How rare was that? A lot of the black families,

or a lot of the white families, they would go into church, but we didn't go to church, to see. It was very hard. Because it was spooked. Racism and all that business back in the day, man. I mean like, to see. How did your parents deal with it?

Well, they just had to deal with it the way they dealt with it, innit? What was that way? Just staying in. All right, if we went out anywhere anywhere we'll probably go with my mum. But for me it was a bit easier because my oldest brother and my sister, well there's one year between them two, then there's ten year gap, then there's one year between me and my brother. So it was starting to get a bit easier. So I didn't see it as strong as what my oldest

brother would. That's why I'm doing a little documentary of all, it's like the Windrush. I've interviewed 30 people and there's like most of the older generation from Caribbean, different parts of the Caribbean telling this story on what it was like when them came, what was the racism like, what was this like, what was the food like, this and that. I'm working on that at the moment. Then I've interviewed the first generation of children who was born out of them, as you're talking about now. What was it like for them? That's like my brother's age from when my dad came over in in 52. Have you asked him, I guess? You hear it from all the relatives and I'm

hearing a lot from documentary stuff. My dad's very held back on that certain sense. Do you think he's held back because it was difficult or held back because he just doesn't want to talk about it? He's held back because he doesn't want to talk about it. Do you see in a certain sense? I mean like what would his opinion be to a group of black people while he's married to

a white woman? Do you see? Do you see? Back in them days with the racism, we've got to look at them. But yeah, it has been hard. I think it's hard for most people really in that position. Were your parents together forever? Yeah, yeah.

They met when my dad came over and my mum passed in 2015. And they were together, we'd been a family all together and we've lived in the same house. See, I'm still there with my dad in the same house. What was the experience like of your mum dying for you? What did that mean to you? I mean, what was the impact? What does that mean to you? What was the impact? It wasn't bad because I lived all my life with the rest of her days. She was born in 27. I came in 70 so I didn't live all her life. But I was in her life for all the rest of her life.

But because I was the youngest I was always seen as the trouble. So my relationship with my mum was different. I wasn't really close with my mum. I was more close, I was always seen as the trouble. So my relationship with my mum was different. I wasn't really close with my mum, I was more close with my sister. My sister was my mum, even though we lived in the same house. And also as well, the reason in a certain sense for that, which I think scolded my mum, is that when I was born, they cut her from here all the way down to get me out,

because I was born too much premature. You see, and I was a Caesarian, and Caesarians then went from here all the way down to get me out, because I was born too much premature. Oh, wow. You see, I was a Caesarian, and Caesarians then went from here to here. The day I walked into the room, accidentally on my mum, to go and put some cream on her back, just before she passed, she turned around and the scar, that's the first time I ever saw it in my whole life. Wow, it was quite a shock. I was like, fuck! I was like! What the fuck was that? And I'd

never seen it before. That's the thing. Did she say anything to you before she died? No, I wasn't there when she died. Was that a regret at all? Yes and no. Yes and no. I think she knew before that something was wrong and something was happening because she went missing for about a week or two. I'm thinking, what the fuck's wrong? Do you know what I mean?

So I think she must have went up to North to see her family, the rest of her family, what was up there, because remember, back in them days, a black man with a white woman, they would have scolded her and said, no, we don't want to know, and they probably disregarded and threw her out

or whatever, she had to move away in that certain sense, just because of the racism. So it is, and that's what happens, unfortunately, for the younger mixed-race children, well, the older mixed-race children, who was young then, and had to experience that. A lot of the families got broken apart. You was never really surrounded by both.

What about your relationship with Jamaica? Have you been? Been a few times. How do you feel when you go? Again, it's just, it's just a set. It's another home, but I don't know it. It's foreign to me. I've always lived here. England is my home. So home's always been round here.

Home's always been round here. So how I speak is even though I might break into Jamaican or whatever and the patois and all this business, it's like that's been taught from being here. With all the different families being here now. All the ingredients. Especially as we're all growing and it's moving forward here. But with all the different families being here now. All the ingredients. Especially as we're all growing and it's moving forward and everybody's starting to see clearly

in that we can all get together in that certain sense. That's what I feel of being a mixed race guy. I can see the problem what's happening between the blacks and the whites. And that's what makes it difficult. Because most people see me as a black person or an Indian person because of the colour of my skin. How you doing? Do you see? This is the one I've been waiting for. This is the one you've been waiting for. I want to read my book. I don't... What is this?

Okay, I'll ask you one more question and then I'll let you dance. Sure, sure. What are you going to do then I'll let you dance with your friend. Okay. What are you going to do next? That's what I'm sorting out. That's why I come here, sit down and get into myself to know me. What do I want to do and what are my decisions next in that certain sense. That's the thing. So you're going to do that and you're also going to dance?

Of course, always. She won't let me not dance. You see? Beautiful. Well thank you so much, and we're going to let you guys crack on. Words glide by, see the strangers hand in hand In a city I know so deeply, thinking of another I haven't heard

And I'll dance to stay young And I'll dance in the winter sun And I'll dance till I'm gone And I'll dance in the winter sun I'll think about all the things that I've done you