Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 5: Michael's Tree

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened!Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy RailtonIncidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : Michael's Tree by Sammy Copley Listen to it here : https://ffm.to/michaelstree Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? Yes, why not? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you have a favourite day of the week? I think Friday. I'm not really quite sure, you know. Then you were free for a couple of days at least. And you still have that feeling now, even though, are you still working? No, I'm retired. Thank you for asking.

From the days when you were working, and you're looking forward to Fridays, what was a typical Friday evening that you might look forward to? Oh, I think it was going out to the pub with pub friends, people you knew for years, especially in Camden Town. Yeah, that was it. It was being free, you know, and being able to stay out late, have a couple of pints or more is there one uh drinking establishment which you feel particular connection to from that time the black carp carp thep the fish. Black carp. A cap, sorry. Black carp. Now that tells you a lot about me if you know that pub.

I don't know that pub. Can you say anything about that pub? It was a gay pub and usually on a Friday night it was so busy that they had an overspill pub called the Laurel Tree just off Camden High Street. When I moved to London, I made lots of friends there, lots of acquaintances, pub friends I called them. I was taken there by a friend in London. I had come from Glasgow to work in London. It was much easier for gay people to be a bit more normal. In these days it was illegal. So you had to be careful. The first time I visited it and I saw this drag act and it was really very, very funny.

Was this the first time you had seen such a thing? Yes, yes. They didn't have that in these days. I'm talking about the 1960s, a long time ago, before you were born. It was before me. Can I ask why you moved to London? It was because of employment. I joined the civil service. What did you leave behind? Or were you happy to go? My family, my immediate family, especially my mother. She was very possessive.

She didn't think I should go to London because she thought it was a wicked place. I don't know where she got these ideas from, but I was very excited. Nothing was going to stop me you know just to get away from from home you know well I suppose if she had a possessive nature I'm guessing you wanted to escape this nature too right I did like that yes Yeah, and I had two brothers and a sister. I got on well with my sister, but one of the brothers I didn't, so I was glad to get rid of him.

And he got married. Again, my possessive mother didn't want him to get married. She tried to dissuade him did it work no well no it might have done because he was very worried you know you think your mother you should obey your mother's don't you but he came to me for advice which which I thought, he was my older brother and he used to bully me a bit. What did he say to you? I said to him, don't be daft if you want to get married. But this time he was nearly getting 30, you know.

And although I knew I didn't want to get married, it was normal for him and it was the right thing to do so i think he was glad to have my support then i i loved my mother she was all right but you know she just too possessive did she soften as she got older? I don't think so. She never really approved. Sometimes I feel if I had done what she told me I would have, I don't know, what I would have been doing now. Maybe working in a pub in Glasgow. What did she want you to do? When I told her I had passed the civil service exam and I was going to London, oh you could get a nice job here she said, in a warehouse or something. Did she come to visit?

I brought her down once or twice. Did you ever take her to the black cap? No. No. I did tell my mother once that I was gay or homosexual. She didn't want to talk about it. Her answer was, I wish your father was here, he would know what to do. Wow, amazing. How old are you at this point? I must have been about 23, 24, just before I came to London. But she just didn't want to talk about it. And you know, I suspect that she was a lesbian. Because as soon as my father died, this Auntie Mary we called her, she wasn't a real aunt,

she was just a friend of my mother's. I didn't know, you know, how they became friends or anything like that. But as soon as my father died, Auntie Mary moved into a tenement flat in Glasgow and they slept in the same bed but I mean you don't think anything like that in these days as you get older you realise So we never really found out about Aunty Mary but she was definitely not an aunt

I knew her well because she came to the house a lot when my father wasn't there. My father was a seaman. He went to sea. I was very fond of Auntie Mary. She was quite a clever woman. She could sew and knit and she could play the piano.

I had a piano, which was quite unusual. I don't know where it came from. Auntie Mary. But she nursed us when we were young. Yeah. Oh, wow. She helped our family a lot. But then there was a big fallout between Auntie Mary and Mother. Oh. Do we know what about?

My mother had met another friend. Oh God! Who? Oh my God, wow! Another woman, who liked a wee drink. So my mother, she was in her sixties by this time she'd never taken drink they say scots people are all drinkers but they're not some are very strict non-drinkers but my my mother started drinking am i talking a lot of rubbish it's fascinating it's fascinating! It's brilliant!

I'm very invested in Aunty Mary and her various different scenarios. So your father died in the early 20s? Oh no, my father had died when I was 12 years old. Oh, sorry, earlier. I know, I know. Can you talk to me a bit about what that was like? My dad was in the merchant navy. He travelled all over the world. I didn't really know my dad that much, but I think he was a very good... Hello, dog. It's lucky the dog has come to visit us.

I'll tell you the reason as well. You've got me talking now. That tree, that one there, my partner for about 25 years, his ashes are under that tree. So that's why I sit here occasionally. That was Michael. Wow. Can I ask why that tree? He worked for Camden Council, Michael. He died of HIV. I mean, nowadays it's survivable, no problem. But these days it was a death sentence, so it was very, hmm, oh, awful. Anyway, his colleagues, he had lots of friends, he was a lovely guy, very popular, you know. I used to get quite jealous of him, but, you know, I managed to control that, because he was such a nice person. gyd-diffyg yna oherwydd roedd yn berson mor dda ac roedd ei gydweithwyr yn awyddus i cael cyfrif mewn Parc Regents gyda'i enw arno, mewn fymoriad, ond dywedodd awdurdodau'r parc

fod pobl yn eu gwandlelu nhw ond gallwch chi ddynnu tre yn ei enw ac mae record o'r fath in his name and there's a record of it somewhere. So when I saw them planting the tree I come up and put his ashes in. It's a nice view, isn't it? No, it's this one. This one's here, yeah? No. Oh, the next one? The next one. Michael's tree as I call it. It's an oak tree. Look at this. That's been there for about, oh, it must be 20 years now. That's why I come to this spot. Can you try and sum up what, obviously that time when HIV and AIDS was kind of, you know, a pervasive force, what was that like?

Initially it was dreadful, it was such a frightening thing because nobody knew where they blamed gay people for it you see. And a horrible thing, you didn't want to speak about it or tell anyone. It was, you know, when he told me, and he was such a nice person, he says, you know, we had bought a house together and he says, if you want to leave that's okay with me I said I couldn't I couldn't do that but it took a few years before he actually died of AIDS that's the other thing I used to bring him over here, he got to the stage where he needed a wheelchair so I used to push him around here. And he was a big tall fellow, not easy to push.

Oh God, that was a bit of a workout to push Michael around. But, you know, you're asking me what it was like. It was just so isolating and frightening. It's very upsetting because you keep thinking how long is he going to live, when's he going to die and it gets worse and worse. Anyway, it's difficult to say. It's like a bit when I, long before I even met Michael, when I was young and I realised I was gay in Glasgow and I knew it was illegal and the police could arrest you. I mean, fancy having to live with that kind of thing. So now we've got, maybe now we can return to father. Yeah.

He died when I was about 12 years old. I didn't really know him. But what I do know of him now, he was a very good man. He said to me, you should go to sea. I remember him telling me that. But don't work in the engine room, he said. Get a job as a chef. Okay.

Because what, safer? Well, yes, engine room was dirty. And, you know, he must have, like me, he must have loved travelling because, you know, I think he liked his job when he was telling me I should join the Navy. I tried to but my eyesight wasn't good enough then. So you could have had a long career in the Navy if it wasn't for those eyes of yours?

That would have been my first choice. He died of an industrial disease which wasn't recognised as an industrial disease in these days. It was called mesothelioma, a dreadful lung disease which comes from asbestos. And in these engine rooms and ships, all the pipes and the engines are lagged with asbestos. And he must have been breathing that in. Nowadays people will get quite a bit of compensation. Did you go and visit him in a hospital when he was ill? We were taken there, I didn't realise at the time but they must have said you know he's dying and he wanted to see his family.

But I remember standing around the bed and he was sitting up and there was no way they could treat it or cure it. It's a terrible form of cancer really. Now I believe, and these days I thought, oh he was the bad one and my mother was, you know, I think a boy always loves his mother. Anyway, I think he was a nice man and my mother was a bit annoying. That was my opinion. You mentioned you remember being around his bed at the end. Yes. Do you remember at all what was said? He said, look after your mum or something. I remember him saying that.

And you all did look after her after that? Yes I did, I did. I did as much as I could, although I left her and she said, oh you know, families should stick together, that was one of her favourite nights. favourite. But if I'd stuck with her I wouldn't have been able to help her the way I did. What was the end of her life like? She lived to quite an old age, she was 80 odd. She used year or I'll never see another new year. But she saw quite a few. So we've done lots of the America, into railing in Europe. I call it my grandpa gap year I'm having now. I never went to university. You left school and you had to earn your keep. I've made friends in Morocco. I think that's my favourite country actually now.

Is there anything about their way of life that you've tried to implicate here? I don't think so really. I just like the way, I admire the faith they have. You know, how strong it is. In a funny way I end them. Because I'm a doubting Thomas. I like the Bible, I like the stories.

And because of Morocco I read an English translation of the Quran. And it's so similar to the Bible really. Anyway. A couple more questions for you. Okay. If you can handle it. Well... Do you want a light one or an easy one? Oh sorry, light or heavy? Light or heavy question, that's the big question.

Give me the good news first. What was Glasgow like in the age in which you were a child there? It was a big, dirty, industrial city. I have romantic ideas about it, I mean it was a good life. I was yn hapus fel plant. Tram-car, rwy'n hoffi mynd i'r ysgol. Roeddwn i'n eithaf diodd fel plant oherwydd y gwnaeth fy mab ymddangos i allu darparu i mi fwy na

'r plant rwy'n mynd i'r ysgol â nhw. Rwy'n cofio than the children I went to school with, I remember. Some of them, you know, not even having shoes. It was that bad. Living in one-room apartments in a tenement house. I was in a tenement house, but it had its own bathroom, which was quite a thing in these days. And there was lots of street games we played. The trams had different colours,

a band which told you where they were going, because a lot of Gloucestershire couldn't read, so the colour told them that that's where the car was. So there was a game that we used to play guessing you know the next tram that was coming um i've got a thousand more questions i could ask what any any questions you would ask yourself is that a weird one anything anything any question you would like to to answer or something that's on your mind?

I find it difficult. I wish I was a bit stronger myself. I find it difficult to say no. Well, you didn't say no to me. I know. You could have, obviously, you did find it difficult to say no. But maybe it's because...

Well, there you are. That's an example. We can't go back now. Next time, you can turn me down. I'm getting better at saying no nowadays, you know, when I want to. It's fair to say you are very fresh, but you're towards the latter end of your existence rather than at the beginning. Am I fair to say that?

Oh, yes, of course, yes. I'm just wondering. No, but you're still going strong, so I don't want to say you're... I say to my daughter, why am I still here? Because I used to drink a bottle of vodka a day. A day? And I smoked about two packets of cigarettes every day.

A bottle of vodka a day? For a while, I got addicted to alcohol. Neat? But I managed to stop. Oh, no, not neat. I used to have it with vodka and coke or vodka and water. It was, I was not drinking because it was a pleasant drink, it was to, you know, to make me feel better. But in fact right after I stopped I discovered it was you know I feel better without it yeah and I can go to a pub now and not drink anything but still

enjoy it very much so now you're in your latter stages shall we say what would you say to anyone in the first half about any words of wisdom? Now you're in the second half, what would you say to someone in the first half? I would emphasize the importance of relationships and being honest, as honest as you can. Try to fight envy and jealousy. If you feel that coming, try and resist it. Try and trust people as much as you can because, you know, they respond to it. Try and learn things, you know, a language or music or... It's not that I'm a good example of that, but, you know know it's one of my regrets that I never learned another

language properly and I didn't learn to play a musical instrument that's what I regret it's not too late now it's not you could do it you can still try I know what instrument what instrument would you do a piano accordion I think maybe this is your sign I would you do? A piano accordion. I think maybe this is your sign. You should do it. Why not? What is there to lose? I don't want to annoy the neighbours. Oh, you can annoy the neighbours. They'll understand. Do it in the park. Do it here. Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. That's alright, I hope it'll be useful for you. It was wonderful. When I go, remember me

Through the little things, the memories The laughter spilled, the local park A kiss, a dance, shared in the dark When I go, take time to grieve Then find the will to plant a tree And meet me there among the leaves. The summer air is calling me. Seasons come and seasons go.

What happens next we cannot know I held you then I hold you still and in the breeze I always will Oh, remember me And from your love We'll grow the tree I hope you get some, you know, other people. Oh, I have to. Don't worry, it's not just you you're going to have good company I would like to hear

some of the others well you will the podcast will be called strangers on a bench strangers on a bench so so I'll look out for that