Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 56: Rebellion and The River

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'Not The Place' by Laura ReznekStream it here : https://ffm.to/nottheplace-soabListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you have a favorite day of the week? Hmm. I do actually, I'd probably say it's like Monday.

Good. Why? I'd say it's my day off. Day off in the sense, everyone's busy doing stuff and I can just enjoy the being not so busy. During the weekend, there's tons of people around, can't go anywhere. I don't like to be around loads of people. So Monday is great.

Let's go for then any given Monday in as much detail as you possibly can with someone you've literally just met. Yeah. What for you is a really good day on earth? Waking up, hit me. feed the cats. And what time are you waking up?

Uh, six-ish. Early. Yeah, yeah. I live on a boat, so during the summer, it becomes bright quite early. And then the cats wake me out for food anyway. So yeah, it goes light, cats, action. Yeah, yeah. Um, what do I do next?

Coffee, religiously. That is your god. My wife? I wouldn't quite say that. But it's my routine. But it's my routine. Yeah. Like routine is a god.

Yeah, kind of, but I've been on and off with it. On and off with coffee. What replaced it? Nothing. Oh, yeah. Just emptiness. I used to do a lot of office work and I became reliant on coffee

and I'd have like two or three a day. To get through the day or just? Yeah, to get through the day. I was working a bit too much. So yeah, it was my god then. Were you addicted or? That to, I'd say I was addicted to work. Oh.

The coffee allowed me to feed my addiction. Interesting. I wouldn't... Okay. Are you no longer addicted to work? Yeah. Ooh, that's a really good question. I'm tempted to say, no, I'm not addicted to work, but in reality, I think I am a little bit.

It's a very different work now, but it's a lot easier for me to let go and just not work. So yeah, I wouldn't quite say I'm addicted to work now, but it's easy for me to fall into the pattern of... the pattern of working more than perhaps I should. So there was some point where everything snapped. Something like that, yeah. What snap? I wouldn't say it was a snap within me. It was more, I had my own company and we were doing quite well, but I kind of fell out with

my co-founder. So yeah, I had to. Was it a dramatic falling out? I'd say it was building up slowly. The investors kind of nudged it along because they could see that we weren't really jelling. you broken up with um it became clear that i had to take a step back okay so you you had to jump off before you were pushed yeah absolutely and i'm like yeah the time has come i started the company and i kind of i found everyone like i recruited my co-founders so is your idea this

company yeah all right and then so it's now it just goes on it just they brought you out They didn't buy you out. So, in January, I think it was. This January? Oh, no, 2020. Oh, 20. They offered me 200,000 pounds for my equity. And I'm like, the company is growing.

Yeah. I'm like, that's a bad deal. The thing is we relied on Chinese tourists in the UK shopping, like Harrods and places like that. And then February 2020, COVID happened and my equity wasn't worth much after that. The Chinese tourist stops and the shops closed and then at the end of the year, Brexit happened, which basically killed our market in the UK. So yeah, it's funny, you missed out on your 200 grand. Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I'm just trying to kind of justify it or rationalize it perhaps, but my life took a very different turn after that. and if I got the 200 grand, I wouldn't have gone there.

Yeah. And now that I've gone there, I'm really, really pleased that my life took that turn. So what's the traumatic turn then? Let's have it. I just live a lot closer to nature. I'm less of an avid capitalist, I suppose. And I really thought that money is the answer to everything. And like, you've got to earn loads of money. You see, I didn't grow up with money.

I grew up by poor. And I focused on my career. I did well, I suppose. And I thought, aha, this is the dream. But, yeah, like, after leaving the company, I was quite broke for quite a period of time. And it made me see how life is for... most people. And before, like, I was very much in a bubble. I was surrounded by other

really, really privileged people, almost all of them. And how has this awareness changed the way, the way you live your life? My life is a lot harder. I do not want to use my privilege to get a high paying job and make loads of money and like climb the ladder because I think it comes at the cost like I was getting ubers everywhere before but like who's working for Uber and what are their lives like so I've just become a lot more conscious of my choices I've become less of a consumer it's made my life a lot less convenient I have a lot less safety like literally today one of my neighbors threatened me saying that if I plant any more flowers outside my boat he's gonna take my boat away if you

plant any more flowers outside of your boat yeah so just what on the he's gonna move my boat right and like he broke into my boat a month ago and assaulted me as well so like yeah can you tell me about that what do you mean broken even literally was broken and what do you like there was a there was a sign like outside my boat basically saying come in and enjoy the river because yeah there is a railing and it is openable But people just see the railing and they're like, hmm, is that private? Because they see a bunch of boats there, so they're like, ooh, we don't want to go in.

So I just, I opened the gate and I put a sign saying, come in and enjoy the river. And I put out, like, some duck food so people can feed the ducks. I'm just trying to encourage people to, well, to, you know, enjoy the river. Oh, that's very sweet view. He broke open the door and threw the sign in. And then he came back a couple of hours later and, yeah. But you say it's a solstit you as you had a fight? Or just kind of got into respect, I mean, what's...

He grabbed my balls. Okay. It was a bit... Yeah, it was a brief kind of thing, but... He was just like... I don't know what the obvious question to ask after that is. Yeah, you didn't see that coming. He was screaming at me for about 15 minutes.

He's like, take all the flowers out by midnight. Otherwise, I'm going to come and take you out. Why has he got to get flowers this guy? So before that part of the park, the mooring, it was quite neglected. Lots of rubbish, lots of mess. It looked like a dirty squat, let's say. And I've tried to make it nice. But obviously now people kind of come over to the flowers and they're like,

oh, this is quite nice and they have a look. He doesn't want that. He wants it to be private, like his own space. See. Ironically, I invited him to the mooring six months ago because we used to be friends. You used to be friends as well. Yeah, it's weird. How good friends are used to be?

Well, I'd say pretty close because we were more than North London before and he didn't really get on with anyone else there. So yeah, like we'd hang out quite a lot and he did a lot of work on my boats. Yeah, we used to talk quite a lot. That makes it even worse. It makes it even worse. You like, you basically looked after it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He really struggled for money sometimes and I'd lengthen money and like there for him during

his difficult times. But after moving to the mooring where we are now, he's made new friends. And then he got a girlfriend and like he made some money and he thought he's on top of the world. So he can do what he wants. So yeah, I've been pondering about that today how to proceed. Because I'm trying to create a community garden. That's my work.

This must all be quite consuming for you. Is it quite a lot? Yeah, yeah, it is. It is quite a lot. So yeah, I'm considering whether to give up because I'm trying to get help from local people. And obviously, there's the council. Like, there's people who have power.

I'm trying to get their help, but they're busy. If you're, should we call this person a nemesis? You can? Your flower planting nemesis? Yeah. He stole my fig tree. I planted a fig tree next to the plum trees. There's an orchard in the park.

He dug it out. And then he came the next day and that's when that thing happened. He dug it out? Yeah, yeah. What is this person? He's just, he's not well. I'll be honest, he's not evil, I don't think anyone's evil. Even like people who do not nice things, I think it's a mental health thing.

They want power or something is not going well in their life and they have trauma and heal trauma, and they want to assert their dominance. But also, don't live on the river, don't get a boat. It's a really terrible idea because basically everyone that I've met on a boat is really struggling. Why didn't that is? Well, for a lot of people, it's the only way they can afford to live in London. And so people at the bottom of the financial hierarchy, people who've had crises in life, there's a lot of divorced men,

and they've probably lost their home, no longer with their children, and they start drinking. Like, there's a huge segment of boaters who are just like... like middle-aged men, kind of broken lives, who've taken up, drink, and it doesn't do much good. And like, that's the environment you're in. So it doesn't get better from there. The people who have like sorted lives, they're on nice moorings, which cost a lot of money. So there's a lot of division. Even though sometimes you might be next to each other or sometimes you're on one side and they're on the other side.

And there's just like two different worlds. Where do you fit into all this? That's the thing with me. I'm a bit of another one out. I don't fit into any box as such. You're not a category guy? It's made my life very difficult because I'm always the outsider, wherever I am.

What was the first moment in your life? Where you looked around and you go, yeah, I am. I'm outside. When I was quite young, like I was born in a country in Central Asia, a Muslim country. I'm Russian. So like, people around me didn't look like me. And then eventually I went to an international school for free because my mom worked there, but everyone else was like a son of a diplomat or daughter of a diplomat or a mafia family, people who are like wealthy. And again, I was the outsider because I was a lot poorer than all of them. Whichever

kind of social circle I get into. I'm always different to the norm. Has there ever been a moment or kind of phase in your life where you haven't felt like an outside or you felt like you're part or something? Nothing comes to mind at the moment. I mean like I had a couple of close friends in uni. close friends in uni. When I was with them, I didn't feel like an outsider. But some time passed and one of them died a year ago. And I kind of looked back and I figured out what bonded us back then. We all had quite traumatic childhoods. And that's why we fit in with each other.

But yeah, childhood trauma tends to lead to difficulties in life. a lot of it is addiction related. Whether the substances are work, addiction is a coping mechanism. If it's not too difficult to ask, can I ask you a bit about what your childhood trauma entailed? Yeah. Well, basically my dad used to drink a lot,

a lot and abuse my mom and like beat my brother and then in turn my brother would abuse me mostly emotional abuse like bullying me kind of on a daily basis and occasionally sexual abuse yeah and then I came here with my mom so I was away from my brother and away from my dad But mom had a new partner and like I think he was abusive to her but a bit less intentionally he had major mental health issues and it created a very unstable environment and then we'd live in the same flat but he wouldn't want to be in the same room with me so yeah all right You moved a long way for a kind of different form of abuse there.

Yeah, yeah, it's weird, isn't it? How these things work in life? To what extent, I mean, if ever, have you kind of felt free of all that? You know, I was in at least physically. I mean, like, after coming to London for uni, I felt like finally I'm away from my family, which has always been a source of pain. But I was oblivious to the effects that my child. lasting effects that my childhood had.

When did you become aware? Quite recently. Really? Yeah, like a year ago, year and a bit ago. What was it? I mean, how did that awareness? After breaking up with my ex-girlfriend, I started doing therapy eventually. Therapy, I wouldn't say therapy was like the light bulb moment for me.

I just kind of read some psychology books that made me realize what my behavior patterns are. patterns are and what the connection is to my childhood. And that I'm not like unique. That is a common pattern. I would say that was a light bulb moment. Just realizing that I was still trapped by my childhood, my behavior is still kind of determined by my unheeled trauma. What have you done with this newfound kind of knowledge?

How have you acted upon it? Well, I'm trying to heal. I don't want to be held captive to my trauma all my life. So I do gardening as a, like it's my therapy, essentially. Makes it all the more brutal as someone's, someone's gay in the way of that. Oh, it's... Oh, life. And I'm trying not to, what I mentioned earlier about, like,

I'm not going out to get a well-paid job and then like use my privilege because I know that somebody's on the other end, somebody's having to endure a difficult life in order for me to have a good life. So for me, it makes me feel better that I'm not playing that game and like choosing to struggle. Because when I used to like get takeaways, for example, when I was living with my ex and a nice flat, the delivery guy would come and I was kind of curious about his life.

It would make it a bit hard to sleep at night. not not exactly literally but I had to numb out the pain so like I used to smoke a lot of weed back then because that kind of stayed in me that I'm like aware that this person is essentially a slave I didn't want to live with that so like I don't want that comfort knowing that it comes at that cost so we had to go back to your original question I think I'm just trying to focus more on the healing and trying to escape less, trying to reflect more. I'm not trying to run away, but I'm still running away.

I'm just trying to be more aware of it. I really like that thought that an element of healing is about better understanding the people around you. I think some very obvious thing that healing would be like individual pursuit, which obviously makes sense, and a lot of it is. But I think that whole world of just, as you say, it's interesting, You know, these individuals, they literally, we touch them, you know? They give us things.

It's not like we're just like waving at people 100 miles away. Exactly. They come into our house is. Do you know what I mean? This is like, this is, it's there all around us. Yeah. And it's kind of an interesting blindness that the number of people have to it. Exactly.

That you seem to have been, you know, something's, that the veil has been lifted for you. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. It's, um, you're, you're absolutely right. when you say they're very much in our lives. People who serve others essentially doing labor. I did food delivery for a while.

I haven't done it to the extent that they do, which is six days a week, or six and a half days a week, for like 12 hours a day for many years. I don't know what that feels like, but yeah. The other thing to say would be that being more aware of this,

it's made me decide to leave London and leave the UK, because I feel this is not, at least this is not the place for me, because I see so much injustice around me. Essentially, like, colonialism isn't finished. Give it a hundred years and people will be saying this about the current time that we live in, but it's often talked about as if like,

oh yeah, slavery is in the past and colonialism is in the past. We don't do that anymore, but I think we do. It's just changed. Like, before we were exploiting foreign lands, now we're exploiting foreign people who come to this land. I feel there's a lot of culture war, and, like, I want to get away from that. I think our society is a nine and a happy place. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to argue with you.

What I would say is that, don't you have to go a long way before injustice is not a thing? Absolutely. It's just, like, different levels of it, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I'm not trying to make you think again about your decisions, but like, kind of, you know, you're someone who will see it wherever you go. Yeah. I agree. I very much agree. My reasoning really stems it from the UK and I guess the US or the West. We're the source of the injustice. Because like where there's capitalism come from, well, it's.

like it was born here um so well that'd be good just over there on um with the duct so my plan is to move to a farm in thailand but you're absolutely right in saying that there's plenty of injustice there as well i want to be away from like civilization from like cities i want to live Rurally and to not have to go to shops or use a bank. I just want to grow my own food and live on my own bit of land, together with other people. But, yes, it's not a paradise by any means. If I have a choice, I'm going to choose a slightly easier way.

It's fair. It's fun, isn't it? The kind of great irony is that London around here anywhere need people like you. Absolutely. You need people aware of things. Yeah. But also someone who's clearly like done their own thing and like started things and kind of has this outsider mentality. You know, you combine those two forces together.

I'm quite like excited about what you could do with all that. Do you know what I mean? To demonstrate this, to use it, to work against the evils of what you're talking about. I don't know, like it's even just the act of doing a community garden is a beautiful act of rebellion against all the bullshit. So it's kind of, oh, we can't lose this person to a farmer, Thailand. But of course, you must live the life that you want. Yeah.

I do appreciate this point as well. And, like, I have thought about this, and I still think about it. Sometimes I'm like, should I stay and continue rebelling? I feel really outnumbered. Yeah. There must be people who would make you feel less outnumbered, surely. Yeah, yeah. Around somewhere.

Yeah. There are plenty of community-minded people and people who would be on your side, no? Yeah. It's more like I feel the UK is too expensive here, for example. Sure. You're kind of being screwed wherever you go. I'd be really surprised if there wasn't some sort of social turmoil. I'm sorry to be a bit dark, but you know, the London riots from 2011, I'm expecting more of that.

I'm trying to take a historical lens on it and think about, hmm, this culture is shaped by Christianity. Christianity is very much about, like, rules. You cannot do this, you cannot do that, you cannot do that. You cannot do that. And Christianity was also very much in power when colonialism was happening. And I'm like, hmm, that doesn't quite make sense to me. Whereas Thailand, its history is Buddhism.

And Buddhism is a lot more about accepting the way world is, as opposed to trying to force it to be a certain way. I've become a bit more spiritual such that I think I want to be in the country which has Buddhist roots. Even though, like, I'm sure lots of young people in Thailand, they're like, fuck Buddhism. I want money. Yeah, like...

No, it makes sense. Do you think there's a degree in which, you know, this is all light conjecture what I'm about to say. It's just an idea. But you say you're in the process of healing. You started that journey at which it has an indeterminate amount of time it would take.

Lifelong journey. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And some people think that I've got to move somewhere, I've got to change this, as a kind of final step of this meeting process. So like a physical thing or a big change will help with that. And it's almost, I think, worth, at least if I was in your position, I think I would want to do more of that process.

So I know that moving isn't just about the past. Isn't it actually a reaction to your childhood. 100%. But actually not actually working out. It's like an illusion of working out. Yeah. 100%. I really don't think that changing

where I live is going to heal me in any way. The stuff that I need to work through is inside me. One thing I've learned from Brism is that you have to learn to accept the chaos around you. Life will always have lots of chaos

wherever you are. So I do actually regularly think about this. I'm like, hmm, should I actually stay here and learn to embrace the chaos and to like, you know, persevere? Yeah. Maybe. Like, it's an ongoing question. At the same time, I know that I've been drawn to East Asia

and, like, Buddhism, for example, since I was 18, like, since before I came to London. It's, like, for 16 years. So I just feel it's an intuitive thing. Yeah. It's always good to try, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, that's certainly fine You know, as a rebellious sort As Taker is a bit of a rule breaker Can you think of like Your greatest rule break

You want me to say that On a public podcast Yeah, it's a lot anonymous, isn't it? Oh yeah You know, who's going to find you? You're just a voice Well, well, well Unless you say, I broke into this bank

on February the 2nd, 1993, do I mean? In the age of AI To be fair, I don't have much content online that my voice could be matched too. I think you're fine. Probably. I have a thing. I'm intrigued.

Yeah. I'm even more intrigued now. I've broken loads of rules, okay. Let's have one you're most proud of. I genuinely don't know. Honestly, it's just my way of life. I don't accept the status quo. Is this a constant?

Yeah. Okay, well, one that stands out in your memory. You take your time. There's no rush. I mean, I guess if any boaters are listening to this, they'll be like, what a cunt. But I'm not sure if this is the proudest of, but it's just the first thing that comes to mind really. When you live on the river, you need to get a license for your boat. It's like over a thousand per year.

You need to have your safety certificate and you're meant to move every two weeks. I haven't got a license. I haven't got a safety certificate. And I'd been in one place for two years. Like, obviously some people on the other side of the river, they look down on us, they're terrible people, let's not talk to them. Like, some people just judge us just on that, and it's not nice, because they just, like, see us as subhuman.

They don't want to talk to us. But yeah, like, I know that I'm trying to do a good thing. So what's the good thing? I'm trying to create a community space or a community wildlife garden on a piece of land that's been neglected. The council doesn't care about it. The charity that's meant to look after it doesn't care about it. The trees are dying. There's loads of mess and rubbish.

And I'm trying to clean it up and invite people in and share it. There's loads of fruit trees. I've been fruiting the plum trees. I go into trouble for that. I'm like, I just don't give a fuck. I just don't give a fuck, I'm gonna keep going. What's the worst that can happen? For fuck sake, the plum tree is dying

because no one's looked after it. As humans, we have done orchards for a really, really long time. Like in ancient Egypt, people had fruit trees, and that kind of fed the people. And like, here I'm living to a bunch of plum trees which are dying because no one cares for them. So I just started caring for them,

even though I don't have permission, even though I'm breaking the rules. But some people who live on land next to me, they've reported me to the council So I've got a telling off last week, but I'm like, I'll have to do it. Good on you. It's the right thing to do. Good on you for doing it.

I'm intrigued there. With all the kind of not having a license, all these things, surely there are people who are on to you. Yeah, yeah. No? I've gotten away with it so far. How have you done that? I don't know. I mean, to be fair, like all of us on that mooring, none of us have licenses.

So the mooring has a reputation for that. And like the authorities came a month ago and they put letters on most boats say, I'm going to take you to court if you don't get a license. But they didn't put the letter on my boat. Like, I don't know. The world works in weird ways. There's loads of coincidences.

And I genuinely feel that like I'm being guided in a certain direction to do like something positive. and that I'm kind of being protected. I can't explain it any more than that. I just feel something within me, and I'm going in that way, and somehow I'm getting away with it.

Like, I've done loads of shit that people get in trouble for. So far I've been okay, but tomorrow I might get hit by a bus, who knows? And like, even if I do get hit by a bus, that's okay as well. Like, it's fine. Yeah, like, I have trust. I trust. destiny let's imagine someone was listening to this who wouldn't classify

themselves as a rule breaker yeah but they'd be quite you know they're quite keen to the dab or least you know express themselves in that way what would you say to them as a good good place to start to be honest I'd say like the number one thing is is to try to get away from people. And I don't mean like become isolated from everyone forever. I just mean we're monkeys and we seek social validation. We're social animals. That means as children grow up,

they find a group that's like their peer group and they seek validation from that group. As a result, they can't do things that the group will look down on. So I'd say it's really, really key to get away from identifying with just one group. Let's say you are queer or you believe you're queer and you just hang out with other queer people.

That means you're not able to think anything that will clash with their views. Because as soon as you say, oh, actually, I think slightly differently, your friend circle, you're gonna become an outcast. So subconsciously, you're never gonna disagree with them. because you don't want to be isolated. What you're saying is people seek validation, they form groups.

Yeah. Whatever group you have to have fallen down into. Yeah. You seek to please. Yeah. And rule breaking is about not worrying about pleasing people. Exactly. Maybe don't be in just one group.

Be in different groups. And like it's okay to distance yourself from a group sometimes and find a new group. Like I'd say that's one thing I've done in my life quite a lot. I've been in many different groups and that really helped me to like figure out what I think. Because like I have friends who like one might be a millionaire, the other one might be homeless and they'll just like never ever, you know, come across each other. Or like one might be quite racist and one might not speak any English. Like, do you know what I mean?

So don't be in just one group. A lot of people, unfortunately, that I've met, they tend to be kind of in one group. They might talk about diversity. but the circle is not diverse. Like that happens a lot as well. Yeah, that's very common. Okay, interesting. But then like once you, I feel like

that's quite good advice in the start. How are you actually acting to break these rules? And what are you doing as a, you know, you're starting small, you, so that's the thing, it's really hard to be prescriptive about something like this because it's, it's, like what I do personally is like, I ride around on my bike and I look around

world to look around me, what's going on and I'm looking for things that don't make sense. It's inconsistencies and just reflect on it and try to imagine what does it like to be in that person's shoes or like I'm just following a feeling and I'm seeing what comes up. It's really it's very intricately tied in with knowing yourself and like trusting yourself. So like I used to be really insecure. What are you insecure about? My appearance, for example, I'd be like, what should I wear? I'd ask my girlfriend's girlfriend at the time to help me with, like, choosing what to wear. Because, like, she had fashion taste.

I wanted to be cool, and I was relying on someone that's already cool. But then, eventually, I was able to come out of the cool circle and look at the so-called cool people. And, like, actually, you guys are not cool at all. You all just copy each other. You're boring. So yeah, it's really about like believing more in yourself and trusting yourself. And that takes a long time to figure out, but if you always hang out with one group of people, it's going to be really, really hard to break rules.

stuff you've already said. First one, I'm going to say, obviously you're someone that's experienced a lot of kind of ill feelings towards like nice things you've done. Can you think of like an act of appreciation or kindness from a stranger that's moved you? This does happen sometimes. Just give me a moment I will recall something. It's got to be someone that's done one nice thing. Yeah. No, for sure. A lot of people in fact. Um, One of my neighbors, he's like 80, and he gives me bread pretty much all the time. He lives in the house opposite the boat.

And, yeah, he just sees that I'm busy gardening, and he brings out bread to me. Oh, how sweet. That he's made or just has? Oh, no, basically his wife buys too much. Really? So, yeah, he can't eat at all, so he just gives it to me. But he's a really nice guy as well. and it's it's kindness they give you time they notice you

a lot of people they'll just be polite they'll say the right thing but they don't actually give a fuck it's interesting isn't it that kind of you know the difference between someone just saying a pleasantry to you like hi whatever yeah you know that's fine it's better than nothing obviously but the difference between that and like giving someone and some bread for instance It's just enormous. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's an enormous difference for not that much more.

Yeah. That's a sad reality. Is it like so many people are so close to making so much more impact like that. Not that much more. That's the thing. I do not know why, but a lot of people have been really kind to me. And I keep wondering, is this a coincidence?

Like, why are people kind to me? But like another neighbor in the same block of houses, she's also given me loads of food. And that's food that she cooked. And I'm like, why are you being so generous? And she's like, well, almost all my family is in Turkey and I just, I want to share. And she just like comes over to my boat and gives me food. Or there's another elderly Irish guy that passes by through the park.

He picks the plums and he brought me jam that he made with the plums. That's the thing. Like my social circle used to be like people younger than me. And now my social circle or people I interact with, they tend to be like older. People in their 50s, 60s, 70s. I feel like they're really human. Yeah, makes sense. Oh, I think, you know, like, again, it's like, it's a classic, like, you know, you, you

get back what you, what you put in, it's like, you know, you, or what you put out, whatever, you know, like, you know, you, you, you carry in you what you do. It's magical that people can sense it. Yeah. Because in the age of science, in the age of, like, analyzing everything, we don't have some sort of scientific proof for this, like, face reading or something. Oh, we all know. Yeah.

And I think we do face reading without knowing it, just relentless. you know, who I choose to sit next to will make a huge difference. Yeah. Will change the day for me or change everything, change whatever happens. Yeah. So, like, when I walk past you, it was, like, instinctually very obvious that I should ask you, you know? It's like, definitely. Yeah.

It's about following your intuition. Exactly. Obviously, you seem to me, like, quite a courageous person. in many ways. Sometimes to courage to my own good. Can you think of a time where, like, looking back, like you wish you did have more, even though you have a lot, that you didn't have enough or you wanted more at some point? I'd say with girls.

I don't have enough courage there. I can be a bit shy. What's so scary about these girls? They're terrifying. Fear of rejection. Yeah, so that's another thing, like, in my childhood, like I fancied quite a lot of girls. and the feelings weren't mutual because I was just like

the weird outsider kid and I think that still has stayed with me I don't have that courage a lot of the time but to be honest I feel sometimes I'm too courageous with like what I'm doing at the moment because like some of my neighbors they come from a different world

in the sense of prison or doing not nice things and I'm just like naively stepping on people's toes because we're sharing the space so if I do something if they don't approve of it they might

you know it might result in drama for me when you live next to people who have been pushed to the edge they might do unpredictable things the river is across between social housing and the mental health institution

you have to tread carefully have there been any magic boat moments? Oh yeah. Two weeks ago I convinced somebody to move their boat to make space for the circus boat. The circus boat came and did a performance. They've been doing a performance there every summer for 15 years. That's the only space where the boat could perform, the circus boat could perform, but like there's no space there normally. So I had to ask someone to make space. And his dog had died like that week. All I think. two dogs. The person you asked to move the boat. Yeah, and he was he was away for a few days

and that guy wasn't coming back home. But yeah he like at the last moment he came back home and I'm like hey I know you're going through a tough time but you know could you please move your boat just a little bit for a day and a half so yeah he moved and the circus boat performed there was a big audience loads of kids everyone was happy magical moment then they left and to the usual. Well, as long as these magical moments every now again to break up the complicated times. Yeah. I have some hope, but I'll take some luck.

It's just it's a lonely journey sometimes, you know. Yeah. That's life. Lonely old journey sometimes. You mentioned your friend died? Yeah. Year ago. I'd say my closest friend.

Oh, okay, yeah. taught me through that whole experience. Like, you know, was it sudden and kind of what impact did it have had on you? Yeah. So I guess the backstory is that we would hang out like constantly during uni and our paths diverged a bit. he was studying medicine and his girlfriend was as well so they went off to do doctor stuff he moved to Glasgow with her but yeah COVID happened during that time and he had um he had a he had lupus and autoimmune disease but anyway during COVID the lupus kind of came back

and he had to take a lot of time of work so he couldn't become a doctor because of his health basically yeah so he had to drop out essentially meanwhile all his friends including his girlfriend they're continuing becoming doctors he started drinking heavily during that time spirits his drinking got quite bad and he and his girlfriend decided to move back to london so yeah fast forward a little bit his girlfriend broke up with him because of the drinking he was living by himself I was reconnecting with him at this point and I had just kind of started reading a book about childhood trauma and how people with unheeled childhood trauma often develop addictions and page after page I'm just reading and I'm like I'm thinking about my

friend because I'm like fuck this sounds so familiar this is like this is like this is just like this sounds just like him so I'm like hey man let's let's catch up let's have dinner so we catch up and we have dinner we talk for three hours it feels just like before isn't like close uh friendship we talk about many different things he says that he had quit drinking he's seeing someone else that seems to be going well he's doing his masters he's like laughing about things he seems totally fine this was february last year and then like we schedule another time to catch up but basically the next thing a month later is um his dad sends me a message saying come to the hospital and like a week later he died um where he had liver failure because he was just

drinking um too much vodka and um he was lying to people so did you get a chance to take goodbye to him yeah yeah um like i was there while he was dying he couldn't really talk um How did it impact me? I've realized that like, if you don't look into what's happened to you in your childhood, it can really fuck you up. So he was sexually abused by his aunt as a child, and he hadn't told anyone about that, not his family, I mean. So, yeah, it's really common when people get...

When children are sexually abused by family members, they... it tends to result in complications later in life. But the impact that my friend's death has had on me is that I'm now much more aware when people seem fine, you know, they seem happy. I don't just, I don't buy it. When people seem too happy, I really don't buy it. I can pick up on like this littlest signs

that people can sometimes show where I'm like hmm so I've become just a lot more aware when people are trying to escape something escape themselves distract themselves because like technology namely our phones they're distraction machines so if you feel like a lot of emotional pain if you have a lot of unheeled trauma the last thing you want to do is face that pain because fuck that's that's painful so let me avoid that pain either by drinking or social media or like whatever else you can do on your phone that's really really scary because it's become normalized you know if we saw kids drinking bottles of vodka we'd be like oh what the fuck is going on that's mad but we see kids on tiktok hours a day

that's fine that's normal but it's kind of the same thing because you live in an illusion it's not reality anyway the impact as i said has been like i'm much more aware of how people escape their pain and I think a lot of people are escaping pain. actually is this is less of a question more of a thing to do. I've only done it once before but I quite want to try again see if it works on a bench. Right. So sometimes I ask people to like to say what we can see but instead of that if you were to look ahead but this time close your eyes and think back to a memory a room a place being something somewhere and seeing something clearly and I want you to try and describe in as much

detail as you can, like what you can see, what you go back to. I'm on a mountain in Scotland 15 years ago. Very clear calm lake in front of me. sky there's not there's not much else i can see it's very quiet it's a little village basically i stayed there for a couple weeks but yeah it's it's there's just loads of plants around and some trees in the distance and it's very very peaceful and not stressful yeah and i feel safe Great. I like that vision.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Lovely. We've done well. Thank you so much talking to me. So that was two minutes you said. It flew by, didn't it? Time almost kind of just stopped.

Okay, last question for you. Oh yeah. What are you going to do next? Um, I'm going to go to the garden centre and the help of the guy with watering the plants. How about you? Oh God, I think I might try and talk to one more person before I go home. Long day. Yeah, it can be long. How often do you do it? I don't

know, it depends, it depends when I can. Yeah. So that'll be some weeks where I go out a few times a week. There's not how you're out, tell you out. Yeah, it is really tiring. Yeah. But I do have, I've got a pretty decent social battery and I've got used to it as well. Yeah. But still, yeah, it's quite a lot. Yeah. Thank you so much for talking to me. My pleasure. Thank you for asking good questions. Again my pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. It was a sickness making money in the city, so I made a home on the river. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I'm on the lookout for the things that don't make sense, it turns out.

I'm not alone here. He kicked the door down picked the flowers and then told me I should sail far from these waters. It took a turn, turns out this was the dream and pushed to the edge. Now I've been put back to the sea. I don't want to escape, but I still want to leave. This is not the place for me I'm breaking rules and finding roots

It sometimes feels like something Holding me caught up No one here looks like me But that's all right I'll share the space open the gates to the garden Oh, it took a turn Turns out this was the dream

It pushed to the edge Now I've been pulled back to the sea I don't want to escape But I still want to leave This is not the place to me this is not the place for me this is not the place for me this is not the place for me

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.