Strangers on a Bench - Episode 68 I Hate This House

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'I Hate This House' by Jas RatchfordStream it here : https://ffm.to/ihatethishouseListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, so it to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? What's your favourite day of the week? Friday.

Straight off. Why? It always used to be the end of the working week, and although I don't work anymore, it stayed as a favourite day and there's a lightness about Friday so Monday to day it's lovely but it's not that lightness there on Friday. So you still feel heavy on a Monday even now? No I don't feel

heavy I just feel lighter on a Friday. Okay let's go from this Friday from the start of it to the end of it Yeah. How are you spending an ideal Friday? Waking up without back pain doing a bit of exercise

looking at the weather planning a walk, going for a walk. It could be two hours, it could be four hours. Quite a chunky walk? Yes. Four hours? Yeah. How many miles per hour is that?

I've no idea. Well, it's just walking speed. Well, I'm sitting now looking at the little ducklings, so I factor in sitting down. Oh, I see. So is that part of the four hour? Yeah. Well, not always, but sometimes. I always like to do some hills, because hills, I think that's the excellent.

size a bit so I'll go up and down a few hills home chat with the husband few chores read the paper that's about it really do you not walk with the husband no why he's got a bad back but so of you and he walked too slowly he walks too slowly yeah it just doesn't a head in it's like having a toddler no so and his in fact he's his he's had a bad back for decades and decades. This is just fairly recent for me. So I appreciate that it's hard for him. Has your back problem helped you sympathise? No. Not really, only because I get on with it. You're physically just, and mentally struggling with your husband. I certainly moan less than he does, but I will concede that his pain is probably worse than mine. But we don't really know that for

sure. There's no knowing that. But he does walk very slowly. And the very, very interesting, thing is that despite having chronic backache, he can still manage to play golf. Ah, okay. Plot twist there. Cherry picking there? Maybe. Although there are golf buggies. Is he ever in a golf buggy? When he's just got back from a week's holiday in the abroad, a very hot country called Turkey and I think he's had a golf buggy then. If he could walk the exact same speed as you. Yeah. Would you still like him to come walking with you? I'd like him to join me perhaps twice a week,

but I'm very, very, very happy walking by himself. There's a piece time. I just love the sorting out your head time. I just love it. On your walks at the moment, what are you mostly thinking about? Children, family issues, how to sort things. Or stand back while I can sort them. Where do you stand on interference?

I'm a big interferer. A seriously big interferer. Does that always work? Oh God, no, no, no, no. One time out of ten, probably it works. But a key is it going. In fact, I was literally saying to my husband this morning, I don't get how people find having babies so difficult these days.

And I think it's because of all the information that's available. because I can remember coming home from hospital with baby number one. Husband picked me up, dropped me off, went to work. And it wasn't easy, but it wasn't hugely, hugely problematic. And it's just that someone recently has had a baby and is really, really struggling. And I get that it can be hard. But I just don't get that it has to be that hard. I sound really harsh then.

It's okay. I'm interested in what you say about information. Why do you think information is making it more complicated? Because I think they want to know everything. So rather than let things flow, so if a baby cries feed it, put it down, if it cries, it gets viewed it, cut it, whatever. But there's this fascination with wanting to know if there's anything wrong, if there is something wrong, what is it, how to go about solving it, who to see.

Well, in fact, it's just a baby crying. Sure. And I experienced this with my own. children, well, I've got four children, so... You've got four? That's quite a lot. Two of them. And I just think it just leads them to worry about things that aren't worth worrying about. I just thought it was just a really enjoyable time.

But that speaks to the control freak in me, because the best time for me was having the children, being in control of everything and how things were going, being organised, finding it fairly easy, then as soon as they start to assert themselves, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what's happened here? What do I do here? Yeah, absolutely. What do I do? So it was definitely my finest hour, the new baby bit. I've gone downhill rapidly ever since. I guess it must be hard to relinquish being the decisive force suddenly and then not. I guess I mean, it must be impossible.

to turn that off? Well it is and it's more difficult when you know that or you can see the accident happening ahead. Were there any particular interventions that in hindsight you wish you didn't make? Oh, whew. I'm just a, I'm a nosy person, I'm an interfering person and I'm a really controlling person and I think my interventions inevitably are unhelpful. So a little thing, but in fact it's quite a big thing in the event. I've got a son who lives in a flat in London, wanted a dog. Got this lovely, lovely dog, really, really mad dog, but also a baby.

And it's really affected their first six months of having a baby. It's made life so much more difficult. And I was really, really, really against them having a dog. I didn't think it was fair on the dog. This is their first baby. They're never going to have the first baby, the first six months again. And having the dog has caused an awful lot of strife. And I really, really, really wanted my husband to say, to say, if you say something,

they listen to you because you never say anything. So your opinion is worth something. You're trying to get him to say something. I said something. I did. And I kept saying, if you're going to have a dog, have a different dog, or have you. Where does this side of you come from, do you think? Is it always, yeah.

Has it always been there? Or is your children brought it on? No, I think it's always been there. My mother, my mother was like this. And yet my father was very much like my husband. A really, really nice man. And my husband's a really, really nice man. But wouldn't deliberately offer an opinion

that might be a little bit conflicting. So you've replicated your mother's life? I have. Has that been a good idea? No. No. So that mean you regret everything? No, I don't regret everything.

It's just if you have opinions, it's more likely that you're going to be unpopular if those opinions are unpopular. And I'm in an odd place because I come from a fairly deprived background, certainly not privileged background. And I met somebody who had been to public school. It was factory charming and really, really charming. It could charm you, you could charm your wife or your partner.

It's so charming. And I'd never met anybody like that before. And I thought, oh my gosh, that must be really special. and in fact it took me a while to realise he spoke to everybody like that so I've moved from really quite a working class existence into a middle class existence and a lot of my opinions are formed

because of the background I come from but those opinions aren't replicated in the world I move in does that mean that people don't like you? I think a lot of people don't like me I think I'm very much a Marmite person And people, when they like me, they really, really like me. They react strongly against you if they don't. It's so obvious that people prefer my husband because he's easier to be with.

I think people probably find me more interesting, but less likable. Well, in fact, I know people find me more interesting, and I know they find me less likable. So I haven't any down there. And this doesn't particularly bother you. I mean, do you mind not being likeable to some? Sometimes it does. I mean, my general opinion about being likeable is that it's really important the people I like, like me. Yeah.

But the people that I don't particularly have any inclination towards, if they don't like me, that's not a big problem. Absolutely. And I've noticed it's getting worse, actually, I've got old. I think, well, I'm never going to see you again. What is the point of me never? You know? So I've become very antisocial because I can't be bothered. Yeah. You don't want to make any new friends. You've made enough. And what I really love, because the day before yesterday, I came here and spoke to a really, really lovely young man sitting on the bench there.

Yeah. And we must have spent about half an hour, 45 minutes talking about God, religion. Wow. Oh, so you've been practicing talking to Australians and on benches already? Well, I thought you were part of the same thing. But I do stop and talk. When we go to our holiday home, my husband, because of his baptism, walk very often, although he can't play golf there.

I meet so many people, I mean from all over the country, and have a chat and a coffee and what happened. So you quite enjoyed that? Yes. But you also like the fact that you could just walk away and never be seen again. Yeah, absolutely. So it kind of works for you. Yeah.

Did you strike up a conversation with this young guy I'm interested? Or did he strike on with you? Oh, yes. Oh, fantastic. Maybe you could take over for me. I could pass the baton on. It was about the ductings. I was really worried about, because they were nice, started off with nice.

See, look, look. What? Where the her in is now. He's prowling around. Is he going to say, I can't see? I can't see any ducklings. Well, he hasn't eaten them, has he? No, I don't think so.

There are no ducklings there. Well, good on you for having the, having the conversations. People are very friendly. They are, aren't they? I'm very interested in this idea of your, you know, you come from a background that is not particularly well off by the sounds of it. And then you've stumbled upon, obviously, someone who's got money. What's it like to suddenly transform your life like that?

Well, no. I'm making it sound more dramatic I mean he's not a Duke or anything he's not massively rich I just happen to have a good education went to university went into an area

where there weren't that many women and was introduced to him by a colleague and I'd never met anybody who was posh before because at university I stayed in these sort of non-poche group of people and I slowly

got used to how people talked and how they ate and their obsession with education and I think I probably was the only Labour voter that they'd come across ever. Interesting. How do you feel about posh people? Honestly?

Yeah. I think... Well, it depends how posh they are really. Okay. Yeah, I don't like privilege. Privilege really gets my back up. I hate, hate, hate, hate privilege. And I say to this to my husband sometimes

because he'll go out and buy something, or whatever, and I'll say, do you know how much that costs? He said, no. He would never, ever, ever, ever ask the price of anything because he'd never had to do without money. Whereas if there was five pounds off at a different store, I would walk to the store that had five pounds off. And he says that's stupid.

Have you lost anything being in these worlds? Oh, yeah, yeah. What have you lost? I'll get upset now. I've lost my values. All of them? Not all of them. I would really, really, really like to go into politics.

I'm opinionated, I'm gobbly. I think if you have me on your side, you're doing well, is my view, because I'm looking like you're born really hard. Oh, my... What is it? Just try to eat one of those birds. Sorry. It's stressful, isn't it?

Well, that's nature. Look at the little things. Sorry. No, where, where... So, when you talk about politics? Politics. would have made a good politician. It's all time.

No, no, I can't. Because my backstory, my principals have just gone out of the window. Have you heard of spin? No, you can't spin me. Because if you really breach your own values and principles, if you talk the talk but don't walk the walk, then who's going to believe you? She could be a good politician.

She could do a good job. Didn't you send her children to private school? That's all a way of framing things. No, no. That's dishonest. I wouldn't want to be like that. What other values have you lost then in this land? The posh people?

It's a lot of posh people. It's very difficult. I find this really difficult because I'm not posh. My husband's posh. My children are posh. And there is this sort of little bit of, not a barrier between us, but whereas I get where they come from, they will never, ever, ever get where I came from.

So for instance, I always buy second-hand clothes, but the children, again, money is no object to them. I will spend money on the children and I won't spend money on me. And I just think that when you're in a position of privilege, you have to work really, really hard to make other people's lives a little bit easier. So the day before yesterday, I sent a WhatsApp on the first of the first of the first time. a WhatsApp on the family WhatsApp group saying, just out of interest, is anybody a blood donor? I used to do that and donate payments. And it just never occurred to me to ask the children if they did that.

One of them, big brute of a rugby player, did it about 20-odd years ago and fainted a thing. That happened to me as well, you know. What you fainted? Yeah, one of the last time I did it, or the last one did it, had a really bad fainted. and then they said, well, don't do this again for a while. Anyway.

Yeah, yeah. So what happened in the WhatsApp group? So I sent this WhatsApp and nobody's got back to me, so I was assuming that nobody is interested. My daughter would be interested, but she can't do it. She's got a pacemaker, so she can't. But all these privileged, rich kids can't spend 20 minutes, three times a year and give a little bit of something,

which means more than money. Yeah. It's time. Time, time is really, really precious to them. And blood, obviously. So... Do you say that on the group? You're rich little whatever, is why aren't you going to...

Oh, no. Maybe you should. Well, they know that. They know who. No, they know. They know what I think. They know why I was sending it, because they're lovely children, but their privilege.

Has there been a time where you've been in this... What can we call it, this privilege, posh world, whatever it is, whatever it is. Where you've been genuinely upset at something you've seen or heard someone do. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, all the time. I meet more homophobic and racist people in that world than I do in my world. And as I'm saying it, I'm actually lying because I go to a Jim in Sheffield that's really, really working class and I would think most people are racist, misogynistic, certainly sexist, so I'm talking to myself out of my own argument there. We're going around. Well, you can, I mean,

it's hard to know for sure, isn't it? Well, certainly at the gym when the chap next to you says something like, oh, they shouldn't have a woman's only gym here. And why do they have a woman's only gym here? and why do they have to wear veils? Oh, I see. And my response was, but I thought you were a Christian with Christian values. And he didn't know what I was talking about.

He had no idea that what he'd said was racist. And there's this horrible, horrible underlying racism, especially against young women. And I think posh people, because they're more educated, can express that in a different sort of way. Interesting, yeah. I mean, that does make sense, isn't it? So for instance, when we go to our holiday home, I feel proud.

It's only a little cottage, it's only a little cottage, but there are certain people there who are very, very middle class and very homophobic. Each time do you try and say to it? Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of people would just stay it all the time, but my husband never does to the point where I could actually be in tears because I used. I used to work with young people, and I used to see predominantly men, but boys, who would cry about the fact that they were gay, didn't want to be gay, and they'd cry and cry and cry and cry and cry, and then these people in this holiday place, they talk about lifestyle choices and really derogatory things about people who just find themselves attracted to the same sex, having no idea that for a lot of people, not not. too much now, fortunately, but a lot of people, it's really traumatic thinking, I don't want to be like this, but I am like this, what do I do about it, especially if you come from a religious family. They just don't know what they don't know. But if they did know what they don't know, I suspect they'd still feel the same. That's the sad part about it. So. Well, well done for

taking people on. So many people would rather an easier life. Yeah. Well, I'd rather say something and have an easier life as well. Because it's, because it's just, I'm just, I'm, I've spoilt dinner parties and things. Have you? Everybody's laughing at things and I'm thinking, no. No. By saying things like... And then the atmosphere is just terrible afterwards.

It's just fairly obvious that somebody in the group has spoiled the atmosphere and that's me. But it's not me, it's the person who's saying something derogatory about a lesbian or something. Here's a big question for you. Yeah. Have you ever thought about leaving this world? Sorry, not the wild in general, sorry. Oh God, yes. This privileged world you don't like.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. At what points have you thought about it? When my husband and I, when I realised that we were completely different, my husband and I agreed compromise, certainly because of regard to education, has been a really, really big thing for me, agreed that they'd start off in private school, and then they'd go into the state school.

We've got brilliant state schools in Sheffield. Seema's state schools, brilliant, really. I mean, top schools in the country. And then it happened that that wasn't going to be the case. This was with child number one. And at that point, I thought, if this is going to happen, I can't do this. I really can't do it. You can't be...

I can't... I can't... Yeah, I really thought that this is a really, really serious thing to... Just going against your core principles. Yeah. And so what happened then? This is the thing about not knowing what you don't know. Because he went off to public school.

He went off at nine. Most kids will sit and cry or go to bed and miss their mum. For him, he loved it. So from Yerdot, he loved it. And he wanted his children to have the same experience. And I'm thinking, well, am I being a bit selfish here by standing on my principals? from what have you. So against my better judgment, number one went away. What was that like?

It was the unhappiest year of my life. It's a bit complicated in that he was at a school that I thought was just a little private school. But in fact it was a prep school. Do you know what a prep school is? Yeah, I think so. What's just like a private school? private school for younger ones. Yeah, well that's what I thought. But back in the day, the prep school was preparing them to go away. Okay.

I didn't know that. Right. So when son number one got to the age where people were talking about other schools, people were going off to all these boarding schools. And we actually live half a mile from one of the best schools in Sheffield. We're going there.

And he got really upset about that. The husband got upset about it. and somehow I just felt bad about disappointing people and that was because I didn't know what I didn't know. Now that I know

what I didn't know then, there is no way that that decision would have stood. I just wouldn't have allowed it. I just wouldn't have allowed it. It just wouldn't have happened. In the event, I sobbed for a week. It didn't speak to my husband for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks the son had a whale ever time.

He didn't listen at all. He was really, really, really happy and he's made lots of lovely friends, really, really lovely friends, and had a great time. So then when son number two came along, when I said to him that he wasn't going to go to this school, he said, so you don't love me as much.

So what can you do? Daughter didn't want to go away, and son number four, because the other two had turned out all right, I thought, well, you know. So you're saying in hindsight you would have potentially ended your marriage? No, no, no, no. It wouldn't have got that far. Okay. It's always been a resentment, always, always been a resentment. I actually, I never, ever, ever told people had children who went to boarding school.

I was so ashamed. I mean, really ashamed. I just felt a failure as a mother then, because what mother would send me? her children away to boarding school. It was just really, really hard, really hard. So every time we went, we went very often to see the boy, my son or sons. I used to cry all the way there and cry all the way back. Literally, I mean, that's no exaggeration. You were crying because you were going there.

Crying because I was going there and I hated it. And I was really, really horrible. I was horrible to everybody because I was so worked up and anxious and upset and angry with myself. I was rude. and pleasant. I was just horrible, horrible, horrible. And then I'd come back, cry because I regretted my behaviour, but also because I didn't want to leave them there. And it's amazing what you get used to. You know, you just get used to it. So I just got used to it. But I think it was weeks, if not months, before I could speak to my husband again because I felt he'd let me down so badly.

Wow. But the son was so... Months of not talking at all to your husband. The son, well, niceties and things, but no, I'm just. I just felt so utterly let down by him. He was quite happy about it, actually. He's got his way, whether it was part of a major plan. Do you hold it against him now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Does it ever come up still?

Oh, God. All the time. Seriously. Really, even though it's all got. Oh, no, I never let things go. No, no. So what happened? Like, now that, I mean, it's interesting to hear what that conversation would go like.

Well, how does that work? I just think that, um, So we live in a house that I've lived. I've hated the house ever since we've moved in. I hate that house, you don't live it? Yeah, and we've lived there for 45 years. Wow, and you still hate it? Absolutely.

45 years later. It's falling down around us, but it was sold to me as a, so, we'd move here for five years and then we'll find somewhere else. And then we couldn't afford to move because we haven't pay school fees. So I've lived in a house that I've loved for decades in order to pay for something, something that I didn't value. And it really has had an effect on my well-being. Honestly, it's a real effect on my well-being.

Because... It's 45 years. It's such a long time to be in a place you don't really like. If my husband was here, you could say to him, what's the first thing she says to you in the morning? And he will say, I'm absolutely guarantee you to say, I hate this house seriously every day. That's your first thing you wake up saying?

Yeah. It sounds like your husband has throughout the time you've been together, persuaded you a number of times slightly against your wishes. If he was here now and I said, has your wife persuaded you to do, what would he say to that question? Surely if the relationship has worked, there must have been some kind of give and take. But this is, it looks, it looks as if I'm completely in charge, because I'm more assertive. I'm always, his fall guy, I've always got to do all the, all the battles. And I think, um, I, he will concede small things to me, but the major things in life, it doesn't look as if he's won in inverted

commas, but he has. Educational kids, I think that's one of the major things, especially when it has lifelong repercussions. Sure. Where we live, he's won that. He's won that. And I think that's fairly major. So you think he's one the core things? Well, no, he's won the core things, but he gets looked after. He's got someone who does all the... dirty work in the sense that I'm always the person has to assert myself and be unpopular and say things. And he's managed to get all this just by being charming. Yeah, just people just think he's just really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really. He is really, really nice. He's nice.

It hurts me sometimes to be saying these things when he's clearly so nice, but... I mean, apart from that moment of choosing the first child's education, have there been any moments you thought about not being with him? I've wondered what it would be like. You know, we got married 48 years ago and we meant it when we said, you know, till death, doors part. And sometimes it's been really, really not very nice. And other times it's fine. I don't know if it's any different from anybody else's relationship.

But being married a long time is hard. It's not easy. Have there ever been a bit of personal question Have there ever been any tempters for you? Oh God, no. Oh, absolutely not. Why would anybody? Seriously?

No, no. My daughter, sadly, her husband died a couple of years ago. Really, really sad. She lives in the country with two small children. He was diagnosed with cancer, 41. And she was part of a cohort of people who were helped by charity. Got a butterfly on you?

Oh gosh, scared of butterflies. Are you? Oh, see? Is it off? It's off now. That's a rare, it's a rare fear. No, it's because it's like a moss. I suppose they're like a monster with a butterfly. Sorry.

So she was part of a cohort of people who were all about to lose a partner through predominantly cancer at an early age, late 30s, early 40s with small children, three men and two women. And they missed. up a couple of months ago, all the men have moved on. And obviously they've been through a bad

thing. They're losing their wife early and having their children. But I'm thinking, well, what are their children thinking? You know, mum's just died and somebody else on the scene. And she, my daughter doesn't, doesn't, in any shape or form criticise. She just says, well, that's, people need different things and I think men are very needy. So why would a woman want to go and have an affair with somebody? Why? Well, it happens. Oh no, it happens. Yes, I know it happens.

But for me, I'm thinking, well, isn't one enough? Why on earth would you? But why would you? I say this actually on a regular basis. I really, really wish my daughter was lesbian because she's got so many lovely, lovely girlfriends. The one whose husband died? The one whose husband died. She's not lesbian. I've tried to get it to go to a lesbian school, but you won't. Because women are just so much...

Better. Well, they are. Sorry, but they are. I think they are. I completely agree. So in our marriage, my husband certainly had a few offers. You've got formal offers? No, this is quite funny. His secretary came in one day and said, right,

card on the table. I'm in love with you. And he said, I can't. I've got four children. which I thought was the price of response. Not I've got a wife and four children, I've got four children. And that's one of the reasons why I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, because my husband adores his children,

he would never, ever, ever jeopardise the well-being of the children. And I would never, ever jeopardise the well-being of the children. Even now, though? Even now, absolutely not. So surely they wouldn't mind that much now, no? Maybe they would. No, they do? Really?

Oh, they mind just as much a thing. perhaps even more. Because then they wonder, oh, well, how much of a sham was it? Well, we brought up in a bed of life together. 48-year sham? Seriously. No, I think. Do that as a factor, though?

Facting. Well, a factor in not doing anything is the worry that the charm. Well, not for me because I don't know. So you've had no offers at all? Well, I've had lots of offers, yeah, over the years. Okay. Yeah. Not interested in the slightest.

What's it like to be with someone who's very? charming? It's a bit disarming actually, I think. How did he charm you at the start? Do you remember the start? It's a way of being. It's not actually saying charming things, it's just a way of being. And I have to say he is known. He was a pinup man of all these elderly people in Sheffield. Widows, divorces, who really thought he was, and probably still think he's a beast news, he's just so, he's just really, really charming. And he has a way with him that is just very, very easy.

Whereas I don't... Do you remember how he, how did he woo you? He was an arrogant toad. A colleague invited us all to a fundraising event. And she introduced me to him. And I knew he was interested straight away because he ignored me the entire evening. So I thought, well, that's it.

I've got him. So then he came to another function and asked me out and that was it really. Do you remember your first moment of kind of true connection? Well, I do. Certainly within six months, I should think. I think it took him a few years longer. A few years? Well, just as I'm saying, I moved out of my sort of social circle.

By being with me, he'd moved out of his social circle as well. So I certainly wasn't the sort of girlfriend that his parents were expecting to bring home. Did you have to, I mean, did you ever get his parents' approval? Well, after decades, yes. After decades? No, they didn't disapprove. I think it was my opinionated part of me that they didn't particularly like. But also, no, I used to wear the shorter skirts and I suppose I'd say I'd look weak common.

common in Sheffield jargon. So it must have been a bit of a disappointment for them really when they had this idea that he was going to marry some sort of steel heiress or whatever and then he came home with me.

So from his point of view I think there was a certain strangeness. There was a newness. I mean he'd never been out with anybody who spoke like me before and although I mean I can still hear my accent but it's nowhere near as broad as it was. and I think you just hadn't come across somebody like me before.

What about your parents? And him, all parents. Yeah, what did they think of him? Oh, they thought he was lovely. Oh, okay. No, you can't find anyone who doesn't like him. Oh, no, no. You know, it was a leg up as far as they were concerned.

How do you feel about your parents now from back at them? I think of the different lives that, my in-laws had and they had. And I think my parents just had it harder. And I think it's sad, really, that some people have to have it so hard and other people have it relatively easy. You know, the really awful decision of the day

is what type of gin to have with your gin and tonic in the evening is indicative of how you live. My parents didn't drink. I remember going to grammar school and everything I had was secondhand. all too big and I remember these white sandals

that had been dyed brand that were about four sizes too big and I was so out of my comfort zone and then I got there and I was put in the year above I... Did you clever?

Yeah so the friends I'd had at my other school they didn't engage with me because they said I was a snob because I was in a second And in that year, it was really hard to make friendships. But also, I'd gone from being really quite a bright girl to I missed a year of chemistry, of physics, of biology, of Latin, of French. And I had no idea why I was. So I really, really, really, really struggled.

Just I was going to be a doctor, but I spent so much time catching up that it just wasn't to be. But I was just remembering the discomfort. Now I wear second-hand clothes with pride. I mean, you know, I couldn't care a toss. When my son had a destination wedding in... I just find it so embarrassing, expecting people to go to Italy for a wedding. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever spend money on clothes.

I just don't. But I'd bought this really, really special dress because I've been instructed what to wear as the mother of the bridegroom. Got there. and there was somebody else in the same dress. The only time I buy some menu and there's somebody there. They're the higher forces, looking down.

Bloody awful dress as well. I mean, it really, I don't know why I bought it. So you hated this wedding? Oh no, in fact, the wedding was lovely. I just wish you had a destination wedding. I just don't agree with it. Because in fact, at these destination weddings, have you been to any of them?

I have. Yeah. Everybody gets married beforehand because these places... Can't do it. I haven't got a license to... So they're already married. So everybody's going off to Italy for a party. And it's so wrong.

I think it's so wrong. Did you tell this to your son? Yeah. What did he say? Can I have some more money, please? We've always gone half on weddings with the... We paid for our daughter's wedding, but we've gone half for the boys.

And it did cost a lot of money. And I just thought, well, what a bloody waste. And you're married. It's a farce. It is a farce. Why doesn't somebody call it out as a farce? I actually felt a shit embarrassed by it because I thought, well, I've given birth to a son

who thinks the destination wedding is a good idea. Seriously. And yet the daughter, she wasn't at all like that. When she decided to get married, she already had two children. She wanted it low-key, she wanted sort of beheming, getting married and the forest and what have you. And then some... Somehow it went from being bohemian getting married in the forest,

register office wedding to make it legal, to ended up in a priory with morning suits, with a gospel choir, and a Rose Royce, and it wasn't because she wanted it, it just sort of evolved like that, because they live next door to a priory. So I said, well, it's a lovely old church.

And it was a really, really, really lovely wedding. and Rob who died sadly his memorial service was in the same church a few years later you know that was the sadness of it what was that time like for you awful it's the normalising of it that makes me

unhappy so they've planted a tree it's a huge hill over the road which they used to walk up quite a lot she's planted a tree that was given to her and just see them go there with their little cups of hot chocolate talking to daddy and things, but not getting upset about it because that's their

normal now. And it's the normalising of it that makes me really sound, you know what I mean? It's been really difficult. She's been amazing. It's when something like that happens, it really brings you up short and you think, well, makes you think what's important. And so now I'm not bothered about, I talk as if I'm bothered about privilege in education or what have you, I just want the grandchildren to be okay. Do you see it as another chance with the grandchildren to do what you weren't able to do with those children, education-wise and other principles? Ironically, no.

Only because when Rob died, they had this plan. They live in a village which has got a very, very nice private school. It's happened to be a boarding school, but it's a very nice school. And it was always planned for the children. to for them to go there. And I hated the fact that she was worried about what was going to happen. Actually, this is quite interesting. I haven't thought about this.

Perhaps my view has changed because I see that as a place of security for them. Interesting. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's local. They're not going to board. It's a friendly school. Everything they need is on the premises.

So I think it's a place of security for them. So perhaps perhaps. I've got no principles at all now. I like how you hold all these worlds within you. Quite a juggling act. I can see why you need the long walks now. Well, I know, I know. Just some wrestling, mental wrestling.

I know. I make my life sound really hard. It's not hard at all. The last couple of years has been hard because of the deaths. But apart from that, it's... I'm really, really lucky. Parks like this, gorgeous. Nice people.

Sunshine. It's just lovely. What would you like to do with the rest of your life? I've lost the energy. Really, though? Seriously. I really lost the energy. Can I say something?

Yeah. What if I say I don't agree? No. What if I say I see someone who looks very fit, who says they walk two to four hours a day, who has a number of very core principled opinions, and is not afraid to share them in it? articulate manner. I see someone with plenty to give personally. And I think people listening to this

would agree with me. Well, I'd say that that's because they don't know me. Seriously, honestly. But what are we not? What am I not see it? No, and I think this is genuinely old age. It's just so surprising to me how tired you get beyond 70. It's almost as if a switch has been flicked. Physically, I just feel so much more tired than I did. a couple of years ago. All I want to do, my number one aim is to make my daughter's life easier. Yeah, I understand that's all I want to do. That's a good aim. And we spend a lot of time going up and down helping out. And we've got grandchildren in London, we're doing that.

And I think that in itself is tiring. I mean, it is tiring. Yeah. What if I said that it's slightly controversial opinion, maybe, do you think a lack of energy can sometimes equate to a lack of purpose? Absolutely. So what I mean by that is if you find something that you're particularly pumped about, energy comes. Could that be anything? I get energy to do things I have to do. So this morning before I came out, I was up on step ladders, painting the ceiling. We've had the ceiling as plastered because it had to be done.

And I did it. I didn't want to do it. But it's so long since I've thought, oh, I've been looking forward to, really really looking forward to something like that. I can't remember the last time. I think it's probably what's happened in the last couple of years. It's just sort of dentaged my enthusiasm for things. Yeah. But I think, I just think there's, I don't know.

Obviously, it's always easy from the outside to throw some ideas over, but it's quite rare you meet someone who really believes in things, you know? Yeah. But if you've got no credibility, then you can say what you like. I have no credibility. No, no, I don't. No, my credibility died the day I'm not sure. I went to boarding school.

Sorry, absolutely. I think that credibility is in you rather than your past. Do that make sense? As a person, as what they bring to any given situation, that's real, that for me is where credibility lies, rather than in the decisions of your past. You could always blame on your husband anyway. And you do.

Well, actually, I'd make him accountable for. certain decisions, the agreement that we had. That's what hurts actually, the fact that we agreed that this wouldn't happen, it happened. Because we did, because we were poles apart. So you can just blame him? Well, no, no, I can't because I've lived the life, haven't I? I've just, you know, I wear diamond rings and things, for God's sakes. I can't pretend that I'm going to go back to Sunderland.

Just sell them all? Yeah, could do, yeah. You know, in a defiant stand. You can be anything at any time. I've got no credibility, so I genuinely feel. that genuinely feel that. I understand. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's just lots in you. Yeah. But let's see what you know, the future is a funny place, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Is anything else you wish you had the courage to do that you didn't? Yes. I was going to be a doctor. And I would have loved, loved to be a doctor. And I thought about doing that. And I missed the point now. And I really, really wish I'd taken the ball by the haunts and I wish I'd I've done that. But instead I've got my daughter and all her friends to be doctors. Oh, that's great. Because they weren't going to be doctors until I... Oh, you made them be doctors? I didn't make them be doctors, but I offered them the option of helping them to become doctors. They didn't think they were good enough, quite clearly able, hugely compassionate and kind and what have you.

So I would be the one who would sort of get the motivated and start and help them fill in the forms and getting them. And all of them have made wonderful doctors. Oh, fantastic. really, really wonderful doctors. Yeah, yeah. I'm a good motivator. Fantastic. That's nice.

What a lovely thing to be. Yeah. My daughter, she sent a letter last week that she got from a patient thanking her for his life. And I thought, good on you, girl. You know, if you're doing nothing else in your entire life, you've made a huge difference

to that person. That's wonderful. Yeah. What would you like to happen at your funeral? No, I'm not having a funeral. Okay. No. You already decided?

Well, I was. Actually, I've gone from one extreme to the other because I wanted to have my ashes thrown into the Ganges only to make it more difficult for my husband because my husband was in that field. He was a solicitor. When people died, when people died, he'd ring up somebody and say, oh,

and organise a funeral, because it was just like that. Right. So I wanted to make it really, really hard, really hard. So I thought throwing my ashes in the ganges would at least involve an air flight to India. Then I wanted to be buried, which is actually more difficult for him, in a mushroom blanket. You know what I mean by that? Yeah.

He'd never heard of that. So I wanted him to find out for me to make the undertaker about them. He didn't know about them. this is a really good one because they're going to have to go to extra measures to accommodate my wishes. You know, I'm going to take I haven't heard of it. Really? Yeah. How odd? Or perhaps that's just Sheffield. But now I'm going to have a commotion. And no, no service. No service at all? No. Nothing. No. I think my husband, I've told my husband that just give it a couple of weeks before he moves on and I'm fine with that.

because there would be lots of old people as young women in Sheffield who would love to have him love to have him as a husband so in fact he could do it straight away wouldn't mind in the slightest why would you

you just want someone to be happy don't you so I'm hoping that I could just be cremated and that's it and I'm hoping I'm hoping I can stay steadfast to being a lapsed Catholic and I would really like to to think that I have the bravery, the courage, to go to my death without being match to the Catholic

church. Yeah. But I have a feeling that I'd be weak, you know. Can I have a priest? Oh, get the priest. Go on. Yeah, go on. May as well. May as well. Yeah. Yeah. But I'd like to think that I had the courage not to do that because I really, really don't like anything to me. Well, look, I just don't like the Catholic Church. Yeah, it's him. So. So. There we go. No, well you've got reached the last question. What are you going to do next? You mean immediately? Either immediately or just generally.

Whatever you want to say, really? I've finished my walk and the plan is in the next couple of days to build and help the grandchildren. My big project is to move. After 45 years, we've got to do it. You've got to at least live in a house you like. No, that's what I said to my husband. Can you just get in your own house maybe?

I've said that to my husband. No, I've, I'm at the studio apartment, studio flat for me. Yeah, why don't you just do that? Because it doesn't want it. Well, you could do a studio nearby. Yeah. Well, I think you should insist on the house you like next. Yeah.

It's your turn now. I know, I know. Well, I think it is anyway, but that would be... I definitely think it is. In the next year, that's what I want. I want to have moved house. Hopefully things have moved on a bit for the daughter. and, you know, just be okay, really.

Well, thank you so much to talk to me. I've rattled on a bit, haven't I? Well, that's a dream, really. Yeah. You're very good at not butting in and things. Is this a gift that you've got, or is it, if you hold a skill? I don't know, really. It's hard to me to say that I have a gift.

I'd more say that... I think listening, see what I've done now? I've just interrupted you. No, this is me all allow, interrupted you. Because I think listening is a really, really special gift. I think it probably is, but it's hard to think of oneself as having a gift or something, you know? Why? It's like a footballer or something, because it's me, I suppose.

But you know, yeah. And then you'll do another one today, will you? I'll just, I'll just be as many as I possibly can. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, thank you. Well, thank you for listening to me. Absolutely honour.

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