Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 70: When You Realise Who You Are

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'Out of My Depth' by AqualungStream it here : https://ffm.to/outofmydepthListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? I certainly don't want to do this. That's the best way to start anything. You know, but you'll be a... I mean, look, it's a short life.

It's something different for the day. you know, worst case scenario, I don't know what the worst case scenario is actually. What would be the worst case scenario? Worst case scenario is when you realize who you are. That's the worst case scenario. I'll try and, you know, I try and steer it away from who you are. I'll never be revealed. It's unavoidable. Okay, well. Taking a long time for me to realize what I really am, yeah. Okay. And it was not good. Okay.

Because I'm in a bad place. Okay. Well look, let's, you know what we're going to do? I'm going to start as, as all these start, everyone gets the same question at the start. Right. Yeah. And they're lucky. Lucky for you, the start one's relaxed. Right. So if you can spin it into darkness, okay. Give it your bet.

I reckon you might be struggled at least straight off the bat. Oh, I don't think so. I've got a genius for it. Okay, the first question is, is there a day of the week that you favour? No. We have already done it.

Okay, how about this one? If this is a game of chess, I've got a next move to try and bat away the dark plays. And the next move is, was there ever one? A kind of favourite, did you say favourite day of the week? No, I don't think I ever had one. There's never been one? No. Even when you were 12 years old? No. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, let's just take any day of the week there. Okay. I'm going to keep us still at bay with my next, how I'm going to face this next question.

There's no humour without darkness, I tell you. Yeah, this is true. Yeah. Okay, let's just take any random day. Let's say tomorrow. Yeah. Oh, sorry. It's Hollywood. It's my wife actually. She's having her teeth done at the moment.

Hi, hi there. Okay, I'm doing a little interview in the park with someone who's doing a podcast. 15 minutes, 20 minutes or? As long as we can get. Yeah, okay. I'll give you a ring when it's done. Is that right? Yeah, yeah.

Okay, be you in a while. Okay, bye, bye. Now we know you've got a wife. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've dragged her into the darkness as well. Mind you, she's pretty darker, so. Darkness attracts each other. Okay, where were we?

So we're on tomorrow. Tomorrow, right. Now, what I want to know is, if you could take me through for you, what would be your ideal day tomorrow, lived on this funny planet, within a reason. You are you in the place you live. What is the best possible outcome for you tomorrow of the day? Oh, I mean, I have to be brutally honest, really, because I could probably give the answer that is expected. But in a way, I think the best day for

the kind of state of mind, I'm in at the moment or have been for quite some time is that I just don't notice it. That it's a kind of escape. That I almost don't experience the day because I experienced quite a lot of pain in the day. So if you could somehow find a way of escaping or not really been there, then that would probably be quite pleasurable. Okay. I mean, I've got to be truthful.

No, of course. The one thing about being where I live is you can't do the non-truth anymore. Geographically or mentally? Mentally, you just can't lie because you realise you've been lying most of your life. I've experienced my day is can I just get it done in a kind of blur? Probably if I was like I'd be on heroin or something, you know, because then I could then block out or be an alcoholic. Of course.

But I'm not, I happen not to be. This is good? Yeah, I don't know. Or maybe not. Maybe not. Don't not pain relief. Now, you've said to me they came a point in your life you can no longer lie. Not exactly.

It's more that I realized my life was a lie. Can you tell me about that moment of realization? I had a breakdown about five years ago. Okay. For people who would be listening to this, you'd be like, you know, everyone's heard the word breakdown. There may be people out there who think they've heard. out there who think they've had a breakdown on people who can't really identify it, how did you identify yours? You know you've had a breakdown because there's no question about it. It's the most

intense thing short of dying that you can ever have. It's the most remarkable on one level thing that ever happens to anyone. I mean breakdown almost doesn't give it justice. It's a complete disillusionment of your identity for a for a moment, and then very quickly recreate. It's a bit like, have you ever seen Terminator? Where he's made out of liquid metal. And so he blasts him a few times, and he melt like Mercury, and then he reconstitutes.

So eventually you try and get yourself back together and you try to get some sense of identity again. But when it actually happens to the actual breakdown point, it's complete death. And it's probably the most terrifying thing you can never experience. I don't want to ever experience something like that again. So since then, I've totally changed. I, yeah, I was so hypnotized by a sense of optimism and who I thought I was that it carried me through.

But after that, I just saw very sharp. I saw myself very sharply. And it was too much to bear. Too much honesty for one moment. It's okay. where does the this isn't too much for a painful question

I suspect they're a little bit painful but what was the heart of the pain I mean what was the most striking bit of the pain I mean what was it that did it you know what I mean I realized that I wasn't the person I was

the breakdown point showed me that it was fictitious it was fabricated that I can because what happened was that my thoughts became incredibly vicious and violent towards myself. I wanted to kill myself.

And they hadn't been that previously? No. No. No. It just happened all of a sudden. It's just because terrible voice came into my head and I couldn't turn it off. I couldn't even sleep at night. I became insomniac straight away. And it was like some part of me that needed to come out, I think, which was vicious and violent and violent.

vicious and violent and very frightening, but more truthful than fictitious character. How were you holding your true self at bay for so long? I think I couldn't bear to be my true self because there was so much shame attached to it. So I had to fabricate a character that was, what does it say, someone that would not be rejected and might be liked, because I knew I'd put everyone off, so I wouldn't have any, friends. I don't have any friends now, so it's self-fulfilling anyway. But it's just so much shame in there. Yeah. And so I couldn't bear to be myself. You've had some kind of huge epiphany

five years ago that your life up until that point has been a kind of lie. The life of someone else, not yourself, not your true self. The one I thought I needed to be loved and liked and be popular and all that. It's almost like pre-rejection. I was convinced I was, I was convinced I was would always be rejected and in the end I was completely rejected so I was right. I see, okay. Who instilled that thought that you thought you were always going to be rejected? I knew I wasn't right. I've always known I wasn't right. What kind of family I come from. And I've been trying to use my personality, intelligence, anything that I can mask it with. And so you do everything. You work overtime to make sure they never spotting.

it. It's exhausting. Eventually, I guess what I had five years ago, I just couldn't keep up that game anymore. Okay, I'm still interesting playing the joyful advocate here. Yeah, yeah. You know, God's advocate. You know, look, you're still here. You're on a bench. I'm only here just. But you're still here. Yeah, I am. It's because of my wife. You know, what have you got right? Yeah, that's a really difficult one to answer because I see my life as a whole lot. of deluded mistakes. Mistakes purely because I didn't know who I was. And so I was making decisions for someone else,

the character I thought I was. But no matter what I did, I ended up here. So it's not that I got anything right. It's more that if I can survive this, probably not a bad thing to have the truth come out. But I don't know whether I can survive the truth. Yeah. I feel persecuted.

I feel overly vulnerable, like a man with no skin. So there's too much sensitivity in there. If I could just dial that down. I don't know, it might go through this. Yeah. So, but, okay, I'm going to force you. There must be something in the last five years you've got right. Come on.

Saying yes to this interview. The only one. The only single one. I mean, hangar. You've got a wife. You say that she got you through stuff. I got that, you're right. So, I mean, that sounds like that was a decision you made.

Yeah. Yeah, that one thing I did go right. So, yeah, recognising my wife was the one good thing. Yeah. How did you recognise it? How did you find that? I don't know, because I nearly blew it, to be honest with the beginning. I played all such a silly games because I was scared when I met her

because I knew she was really wonderful and kind. and fucked up like me really in the end, but I knew she was a really decent woman, yeah. Friend. How long ago was that? 30 years. 30? Yeah. Okay, fantastic.

Yeah. So she's... I've dragged her to hell and back and I feel so bad about that. But you must have given her some light, because otherwise she wouldn't be... She would not be still around, no? Yeah, it's because she's so good. It's because she's such a big heart. But she also must see the good in you.

Yeah, she does. She does. So that way you know it's, you know, you know it's there. Yeah. She does. You had this big realisation five years ago. But she was a person that crossed over. So, you know, that bit wasn't a lie.

No, no, she's been the one true thing. Yeah, it was way ahead of me. It was me in the future in a way. Oh, that was interesting. Yeah. What part did she play in helping you get to that moment? She played a big part because I couldn't bear to think that I was causing her suffering. And I think that's what broke it really.

I was beginning to think that I was arming her with my embitterment, my sense of shame. I'm fine, I don't give a shit about it. I don't give a shit about me, but I'm doing this to this beautiful woman, you know. I think that's what did it. So what are her great strengths then? Hers. It's just got a huge heart. She doesn't even realize it.

It's self-anobic. And she's forgiving, which I haven't experienced a lot of in my life, forgiveness, including from me. So it's just that bigness. It feels so claustrophobic all of this. She's spacious, you know. I think that's what the heart brings. The mind just shocks you in the room. Let's go backwards a bit.

You at 30 years old, what were you doing for your time? Gatenstoneed a lot. I used to work as a photographic assistant, experimenting like we do, trying to find out who I was, but kind of trying to force who I was. Never had a lot of friends, my brother, who now have nothing to do with. He walked away. Any other siblings? No, that's just him.

Unfortunately. Did you have any pleasant times with him as a youngster? Was it ever good? No, never good. Never good. Any pleasant times at all as a youngster? Yeah, used to like nature a lot. Okay. But I'd always be on my own.

Yeah. That's all right. Yeah, yeah. What did that look like? I loved animals. I just loved animals. possibly instinctively because I thought they don't harm you, you know. Unless it's a bear in the woods.

Have you had any bear encounters? No. No. But I wouldn't blame them if they ate me, you know. But that's what they do. And if you get him by a shark, that's what they do. I have an image of you to be kind of swallowed by a shark, your last, your last words as people approach you. That's what they do.

So where were we, sorry? Yeah, you as in nature. I like the image of you in nature. So, while we're talking, was there a specific place you would go? Anywhere, anywhere in nature. Yeah, as long as I wasn't at home. And you used to bolt out the door, off you go to whatever. Yeah, I'd never be at home.

Yeah. I'd come home like midnight. Oh, wow. As a kid, you know. Wow. What would you be doing till midnight in what is in nature? Are we talking woods? Are we talking fields?

I mean, I come from Gibraltar, so I used to go to the beach, and I'd be in, like, on the rock and all playing football. with friends who then I'd kind of cramp and wouldn't let them go home because I'm not going home. But I'd avoid going home a lot. Right. Yeah. Home was, I mean, was it, it sounds like it wasn't great. It was a dark place, yeah. Can you say why?

You don't have to. Depressing. Yeah, very depressing. And lifeless and totally regimented and mechanistic. So I couldn't breathe. I had to get out of experiment and explore. And then I felt myself. The regimented came from both parents or one?

Yeah, both. Essentially for my father, but my mum, you know, was regimented as well. Very mechanistic, very lifeless. So it's frightening for a kid, actually. So the family is completely dysfunctional and broken. And we've all turned on each other, you know. Any pleasant family times? Have I had to put it on the spot and say, was there any...

I loved my granddad, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. What do you like about your grandad? So funny and wise, but he was human. It was really human. My father was born illegitimately, so he was not his real father, but he was more family to me than any of the other actual blood relatives.

I know. They're a fucker. They are. They are. I mean, in a dream world, I mean, some would have said a knock to a door and go, look, you can come and choose someone else. You know, these guys aren't right for you. Yeah.

It's just sometimes the case. Yeah, yeah. It's such a horrible thing that we have to endure that. And that obviously can't help but just shape everything. Yeah, that's right. And you had no choice in the matter. No. And also you're so malleable as a kid because you're not conceptual.

So it's all going indirect and so you're unconscious. Yeah. And you've got no choice. And you can't really process it. You're just taking it all in. No, there's no processing. Until you get older and it all just comes shooting up. And then you're five years ago?

Five years ago, exactly. Yeah. Is there anger at parents and children? Yeah, I think what I realised is I've been angry the whole of my life. Oh, wow. Yeah. But it's just not gone anywhere? It's not gone anywhere, but I realised that actually the only purpose it served was to make me feel like I was powerful. It's just part of my persona to just go straight to anger.

And it's a great way of covering up how vulnerable and insecure and fragile I feel with the shame and the sadness. What does your anger look like? It's not convincing anyone. I always feel the fear behind it. So he always feels like a bluff. It feels like I'm angry, but I'm actually hysterically frightened. What are you frightened of then? It's a good question.

I think it's something in me. I'm frightened of that coming out. You know, I got a glimpse of it. That cruelty and that violence in that voice I had when I've I had when I had the breakdown I had five years ago. Do you think you've ever been cruel to anyone that isn't yourself? Yeah, I've been cruel to my wife. Yeah, and I've been cruel to most people I've ever known, I think.

Really? Yeah, I think I'm a cruel person, yeah. Yeah. How does that take if you say you are? I want payback. Oh, right. Yeah. Can you kind of give an example of a cruelty that you've done, that you've stayed with you?

I think it's a lack of empathy. I don't feel the person that I'm talking to. So, like, for example, me and Caroline get into an argument, I'll carry on because I get locked into the mental point of it without feeling the heart at all, which is like I've become a very sadistic lawyer. Okay, I see. But really what's behind it is that I feel pissed off

how my life is and who I am and what I've become. One of the phrases I kept on having when I, had my breakdown was built to fail. I feel like I've been built to fail. It's like one of these toys or whatever. It's sent out and it was... It's been recalled. Yeah, recalled, exactly, faulty.

Yeah. Get a full refund. Yeah, the leg don't work. It doesn't really walk properly. So that created a lot of resentment. But you feel like you are an empathetic person. Do you get... I think I'm a good person deep down.

It always upsets me when I say that because I don't like saying it. But I really do. think I'm a good person to get down. I think there's so much shit on top of me. And I've been... And I do think I really care about people. But I hate them.

I hate them because I can't care. It's like people are defending themselves. Like I defend myself. So you can never reach anyone. Like it's a closed-off world. That's what I loved about me in Carolina for a first time ever. and it was very difficult, but someone actually let me in.

It's like I've been knocking on doors the whole of my life. No, not you. You stink. Fuck off. You're a leper. That's how I felt. I felt like I'd been dragging around disease and stink. Self-loathing, really,

because of the early start just made me feel, what's the positives here? So you were basically walking around, approaching everyone with this kind of, this heavy self-worthy energy. Heavy. And of course, and in a sense, of course you're rejected. Yeah, they could feel the heavy. Because no one wants that. No, no one wants that. And I think people, I think as humans, you know, we see so many

different faces. We take in so many different energies all the time. Yeah. I genuinely believe we're all very good at reading what that is. We've been put off of really believing in that. You know, because we believe knowing is kind of factual knowledge. Yeah, exactly. Provable. You know, Bob. But actually your instincts are getting in, aren't there? The instincts, that never, that never stops. No. So we're kind of almost like domesticated dogs.

Yeah. You've lost your wild instincts. We should be more like wolves, you know. Yeah. And that's what happened in a way of the breakdown. That wolf came out. Yeah. And the knowledge, stiff, kind of fragile character,

thought I'm going to get eaten by this wolf, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, I would say now, you know, being with you on this bench. and honestly I've done hundreds of these now met there's so many people I've talked to everybody I've made it my life's work really what drew you to it? What was the calling?

What people? To do this? The calling I suppose is being as useful as you possibly can be with what you've got I'm actually not a very skilled person but I've always made the best of my skills so you see that that's your knowledge talking isn't it because you've just framed yourself as not a very skillful person. And I'm sitting on this pen thinking, this guy's got some skills. I've got some

skills interpersonly. Maybe you have some skills in other ways as well. I probably do. Yeah, I probably do. Mostly it's communication. I've used that with music. Yeah, right. So I've communicated songs. Right. And that's work. I've been successful at that. Right. Right. But it's too easy to be drawn into what we're good at. Yeah. Yeah. On paper. Right. You know, songs are lovely. Yeah. Great. But this is what I believe is the purest of what I can make with my abilities. And I've always talked to trade. I've did it. I did it anyway. I did it on trains. I did it on buses. I would always test myself out. Could I do it here? Could I do it there? I always tried. Do you think you've got an unusual capacity for intimacy? That's a really good question. Yes and no. You could argue that actually my ability to do, this means I'm actually lacking in some intimacy. I'll give you a quote there, which is we're best of teaching what we're most need to learn. So maybe you are good at intimacy because it's what you most need to learn. I think I am really good at it, but also if I was too good at intimacy now,

I think I would be lost in your emotion. Yeah. What makes me potentially good at this, is, whoever I'm up against, whoever is here, whatever their background, whatever their situation, I can see it as a bird sees it. Right. You know? A bird. As in I can see it as someone flying a buffer. Oh yeah.

Overview. Yeah, yeah. A bird. As a kestrel. I can see it like a kestrel sees it. And that means that I can not get lost. That's it. Yeah, you've got a little bit of this hatch from there.

Which is really important, you know. But do you find, because that's probably what I'm driving at, do you find that you see yourself as you give these interviews? No. Right. I'm not thinking about myself at all. I'm just like, I'm trying to just take in as much as I can. Yeah. From as many pictures. I'll, I'll frame it differently. Do you feel that as you, you know, your focus is totally on me. And you're detached, but you're also intimate. But as you do it, do you get a sense of you? It's almost like a spirit. You see your spirit. You feel, no, you feel, no, you feel, no, you don't see it. Yeah. I think. I think. Yeah. I think you do. Crucially, if you enter what I call this kind of middle realm,

this middle bubble, where we can both put our heads into it. And if you can get into there, then you do see yourself really beautifully. And you see the use of yourself. You see like what you can do as a human with another human. They also see that. You both see it. The middle bubble happens. Actually, bubbles probably quite a good analogy.

What is it metaphor, whatever. Because I think it's when we depart, I'm not going to. to be connected to you, I'll be thinking about you, but, you know, but this will be, this is it. So I feel like... And that's where the detachment comes in, isn't it? There's no clinging or hanging on. Yes, exactly. That's something I've never been able to do. Yeah.

Always get stuck on everything. I always get stuck in the... So I get clingy straight away. Yeah. Yeah, so that's that insecurity and shame, because I see people very independent. I see people that are confident and they go in, they come out. Whereas me, I'm always longing. It's like constantly starving.

Yeah. And it's because of all that in my childhood where I just didn't get the basics. So I've gone into my adulthood, not realizing I was longing, longing, longing, and torturing myself. No, no, I'm independent, no. So this is pretence of being independent, I don't need you, and ending up on my own, you know. Interesting. There's a weird kind of silly game that the mind has trapped me in there. Of asserting something I actually crying out for.

Yeah. Before I started, all that, we got onto the, the. I had a point that I was going to make, but I'm not going to say it because I believe it. I was about to say, yeah, yeah, I've seen all these energies, I've felt these energies. I don't think you have a heavy energy anymore. Right. Or at least if you think you do, it's not as bad as you think it is. No.

It's not as heavier bag as it was, you know? It's more of a fanny pack than a full-on army army bag. Yeah, that's right. So there is optimism in that in the sense that, you know, it's reducing in size. Yeah. So that's really, I mean, that is, you know, that's something. Maybe it will only just reduce the size as you go on. Can you think of anything that would help it reducing size that you could realistically do?

No. No. No, I can't. I always used to think that when I get older and I retire, everything will be all right, but peaceful. So I always longed to have retired, you know. And are you retired now? Yeah, I'm retired now, yeah, yeah. But it didn't work that way. That's when the troubles really began. Okay. I mean, this is me just, you know, shooting, you know, I could go through lots of steps where I say the next thing.

Yeah, yeah. But I may as well say it because it's on my head. You seem to me like an absolutely terrible candidate for retirement. Yeah, right. The worst, actually. Because I think anyone with this much self-and-analysis, self-reflections, the carrying of weights that you obviously do. carry. Yeah. Just I just don't see any good of not having meaningful task in your life. I've never really known where to put myself. I've always done a lot of deadbeat jobs and gone from one thing to another. Never found a vocation. Just been hiding out because I don't have that feel about myself. Yeah. If you see what I'm in. I don't know. I think it's, I'm a big, much of my partner's dismay sometimes you know, I'm a big solutions guy.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's very true. I mean, I do agree with your partner. I think sometimes when you bring in solutions, it's like I don't want to listen to you anymore. Of course. Yeah, so you're going to get the balance right. But that is not me now.

This is more like we're in this moment. I know that. Just defending your partner. I mean, yeah. You'll be happy. Just about kind of, I don't think it's going to get any better at you just sitting and thinking.

I feel like you've understood it. You received no love as a child, basically, had to forge whole new identities, realize those were fucked five years ago. And here we are. So it was a very basic way of doing it, but it's basically what it is. There's nothing kind of like,

there's nothing incredibly complex about it, really. It's very simple. It's obviously incredibly unfortunate and unlucky. It's not your fault. No. How to play it? Now, two thoughts came into my head.

One, you've done a lot of, like, obviously a lot of introspection, a lot. You know, in an odd way you've been studying. Yeah. And people who are listening to this will also be, I think, helped by some of the stuff you've been, you've said. And in that sense, I don't, but what I'm saying, there's no reason why you couldn't help other people with mental-based things. I mean, there's just no point in not using yourself. I think if you don't use yourself, you don't use yourself. suffer. Sure, yeah. Like, you know, we're here to be useful. Yeah. At least I think we are.

Yeah. I think that's my general tape. I think you've thought so carefully and so well about all these things and you've demonstrated a real understanding to me and a clarity of where you are and what you've been through, which is what, you know, so many other people have also been through. I think the beauty of that would be that you're using, something you struggled with, as in so that struggle hasn't been in vain. And to use that for good. So that was a first thought. Second one, I suppose, for just really busying yourself for something just instantly useful.

You know, like, I don't know, go and work in a food bank or something. Just like take yourself out of yourself. See what other people are doing. Yeah. That's what I would do if I was to you. Like, you know, because actually, how old were you before, five years ago? May I ask? 58? Right. Yeah. You look, look good for that age, by the age you are now, if you were five years out of 508. In those 58 years, maybe actually didn't get it as wrong as you thought you did. No. The point is that actually, you were busying yourself with other stuff. Yeah. But there was a reason why you did that. That doesn't mean that busy yourself now is also necessarily a bad thing. No, I see what you're saying. The point is you've had your association, yeah.

And you can busy yourself with something really meaningful that helps other people. Yeah, yeah. I think it's sometimes good to get away from yourself sometimes as well. You spend all this time with yourself. Ideal day. And that's what you said. Yeah, get away from it. So like make that your ideal day as much as you can.

So yeah, those are my two, those are my instant two thoughts. Yeah. Does any of those appeal? Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, I think it's even the most deluded person, they really want to be useful, don't they? Yeah. Yeah.

But for whatever reasons, it is more complicated than that, isn't it? People end up on the streets and all the rest of it because they go into some downward spiral because they don't feel that the other power society. And I guess that's what I came to in a way where I thought, well, how how how how how how how? Why am I useful? You know, how... Yeah. Well, you're right. You're not on a bench. No. Unless this one, so you're useful now? I'm used to right now. Yeah, yeah.

Free microphone. There's very little use to what you're doing other than personal, you know, whatever. But the point I'm making is that, you know, it does make literal sense to go and be useful and go do whatever, whatever. I guess I've not always found it that simple to figure that one out, which is why I've never found a vacation. I never found anything. Yeah. But again, I just think it's just even the idea of vocation is a bit of a nonsense. Yeah, for sure. I mean, what does it mean?

Yeah. It means one person tied to one thing. We're all many different things. Yeah, yeah. So the sense of vocation is itself nonsense. Yeah. And I think once you pass that thought, just fill your time with as much usefulness as you can. You know, as assuming you don't need, you're okay money-wise.

Yeah, yeah, fairly all right, yeah. Okay. Well, then. you know, you'll meet people and you'll be useful and you'll feel good. I think the point of the difficulty is, I'm not denying what you're saying, but you've had a lot of experiences by the time you get to this age. And so then your mind almost builds up a case on you and say, well, yeah, but it's all very good, but it was this and was there was that and it was that.

You know us. Yeah, exactly, yeah. We simply can't do it. No, but also just the fact that, you know, there's lots of experiences where there is a lot of rejection, the sense that, well, I just wanted to join in. Because, I mean, I was like that. As a kid, I just wanted to join in. But it's not that simple because people are very, people kind of cliquy. They're kind of gangy and triby. They are. That's what people are like. Yeah. And I feel like one of these characters, like, Free Radical or whatever it's called, I don't know what it is. It doesn't fit in anything. It kind of like in between. I don't know what it's just, I just don't feel I've ever been able to get into any kind of.

kind of group and I've tried, I have tried, let me assure you. No, I can have, I've really chucked myself out that wall. Yeah, I'm sick of it and in a way I kind of went my own way after that. Why is that, why am I never good enough? All you want to do is be included. You know, it's not being negative or anything like that. It's like, I know some of the things are the blockers, even though what you're saying is absolutely, as you're right, absolutely basic.

It is absolutely basic. No, I get that. But you have to then at the same time see all the kind of unconscious people, blockers, partly through experience and partly from childhood as well. Yeah, yeah. I think the reason why I always go on about group, and I'm kind of obsessed about groups, is because I think I've always been trying to recreate family.

Oh, of course, yeah. Which I didn't realize, by the way, originally. I didn't realize that's why I was chucking myself at all these groups. Can I join your group? Can I join your group? And it kind of goes wrong there. Yeah. It does go wrong because you are trying to superimpose your need for a family, and it's just not going to work, but you can't do that to a group.

So that's been a lot of sticking. I completely see that. Yeah, yeah. You said to me earlier you don't have any friends. No. I just try to figure out why that is. Like, you know, I've really enjoyed talking to you. Yeah. I'm just like, why would other people not enjoy talking to?

Yeah, might not want to do it full time, though. Well, maybe not, but I mean, I wouldn't, I can't think of like, kind of... You end up destroying a lot of friendships. That's how you not get friends. Yeah, but how do you, I mean, how are you destroying them? You see, like, someone that's not going to do anything kind of, like, overly rash or, I mean... I do overly rash, yeah, yeah. the tension builds up in me and then I do something, Pamikaze.

Wow, okay. It happens again. It's kind of like totally self-destructive. Yeah. So, so I think, what, can you give, can you give a... Yeah, I'll write someone. I've had enough or something. I was like, you know, it's like, do you really even like me or whatever or whatever? And I'll write a sort of foul email.

I see. And I say, we'll never see each other again. Done that throughout, I've got a whole track record of that. Yeah. Because, you know, although I'm reasonable and everything, when I flip, all that stuff, from earlier, it just comes up. Yeah. And that's where you see your own darkness.

To your own self-destructive, and it's also destructive towards others. Yeah. So a pattern that keeps in almost automatic. I'm on autopilot. Do people take this, when you send these foul emails? Yeah. Do people ever look past them and go,

look, this is him just doing his thing again? No, they take it literally. No, they do work. Yeah, they do work, yeah. And then I would see that, it's a pretty well-known cycle, isn't it? Where you do something very destructive like that. and then you feel the shame afterwards

and you've regretted it. Yeah. And I think I probably always regretted all of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. But you've made those friends initially. So that's also interesting. Yeah, when I was a lot younger,

that doesn't really happen so much. It's easier to make friends when you younger as you get older. They tend to just not replace in terms of all that. Yeah, so there's a sense of your... It does feel like your life is dying somewhat, you know, in that flow, energy, energy flow. Yeah.

That sounds a bit dark and tragic as well, I know, but that's how it feels. I can't be truthful, how it feels. It might be wrong, it might be deluded, it might be overly dark, but it feels like the tide's going out. Yeah, I get it. There might be new ones, I'm not discounting that.

Yeah, I also think that sometimes you listen to people talking. Yeah. And you listen to their words, but you feel a different intention and energy. And I'm hearing you say words. But like, that's so good. It obviously makes sense. I get it.

I get the words. Yeah. But also, There's like a liveliness to you. There's a liveliness in the way you're saying them. There's a vitality to them. Yeah. That says to me, that says to me, I've got energy to give.

Right. I feel like there's, I don't know. There's room there's room there. I just think don't give that up. You know, put yourself in position. It's interesting what you're saying that. I'm talking about, you know, dark, deathly things and yet there's this vitality. Yeah.

And there's so clearly is. A huge paradox, isn't it? Yeah. But they're so clear. I can feel it. There is love to give, basically. Simple as that. Yeah.

There is love to give in you. And the thing that blocks it is the idea or the trauma of pre-rejection. Yeah. So that thought form just stops me from moving forward. But I feel like if there's anything beautiful in the world, there is like it is connection and potential friendship and what that can mean. Yeah. I don't think anyone's that far away from that. Do you still take photographs?

No, no, I stopped completely, yeah. What did you retire from when you retired? Well, I had some crappy cleaning business at the time, office cleaning. It was just part-time, yeah. You had the business or you were cleaning yourself? Yeah, it was my own business, yeah. Businessman? You're a businessman? No. Entrepreneur?

Not at all, no. It was, yeah, it was just really basic, and bare minimum, because I never really wanted to work that much, so, yeah. But you set that up, though? Yeah, originally, yeah. I had time to myself. In those days, I wanted time to myself, you know. But I've never ever been that connected to work.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people aren't. Yeah, a lot of people aren't. Yeah, I mean, my dad, all he ever did was work. So they're related. Yeah. I mean, I'm always thinking about work or something. I'm always asking you about work on the bench.

Yeah. Because it is mad. It is. And it is, to an extent, obviously in the modern world and invention. Yeah. And I spoke to my friend Ryan today on the phone. It's Ryan's birthday today. Right.

And I said, you know, so what are you doing today? And you just say, well, I'm just going to the office. Maybe it's just the way he said it because he isn't a super officey person. Yeah. Just really struck me. And you're like, that's awful. Right. It's this birthday.

I mean, if any time you shouldn't be fucking going into doing something that someone else wants you to do. Yeah. to make money for them. Obviously, you're making money for yourself, but you're making more money for them. You know, like, what a world where that's just, also, I suppose, what's painful about it, it's almost unspoken.

Yeah, of course he's going into the office. Yeah. There isn't any other option. Of course he is. No, it's no option. Who am I to say, don't go into the office or do something else? Yeah.

You know. Yeah. It's the unthinkiness of it, you've got me. Well, it's mechanistic. And then your resentment build up and you feel trapped and all the rest of it. And then, you know,

all the stuff that comes. comes out when you're older, the 350. What do you have for breakfast? Uh, taste and coffee, I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. What do you have on your taste? Uh, peanut butter and marmalade.

Mm. What brand of peanut butter? It's a whole earth, yeah. Smooth, not crunchy. Oh, okay, fantastic. How about you? Sometimes you have a problem, yeah, which is not really a problem,

but it is like small problem. I just sometimes can't help myself but just eat peanut butter straight from the tub. Yeah. It's a bit gross but sometimes you eat so like too much for it that it gets a bit kind of claggy in your mouth. You go oh god, it's that too much. But you spoon it out, do you? Yeah, you spoon it out. All right.

And the one I choose to have is called Manny Life. Yeah, I don't know that. It's a free advert for that one this now. Okay. If Rose keeps this in, hi Rose, you say hi to Rose. Rose edits this. Yeah. So when there's a kind of edit point, I sometimes remember Rose. Gotcha. She'll be listening to this. Right, right.

Which is a funny thought to know that someone will be listening to you months previous. Right, right. It's like a little kind of time capsule. Yeah, it's kind of time thing, yeah. You know, it's the autumn. Do you like the autumn? Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it?

I do. As a kind of not a huge summer fan. No, I'm not, I can't stand the summer over it. Oh, there we go. Perfect. Yeah, I can't stand. Oh, I like it. Oh, I like it doesn't either. Tell me why? It's the he. the sun, I prefer something a bit more middling, you know. Yeah, it feels like pressure for summer.

It does, though, you're right. There's a tyranny of it. There's a tyranny of it. Yeah. And then there's almost a drunkenness in people's psyche in the summer over the top. So I kind of like something a bit more sober, you know. Yeah. It's got a whole energy about it the summer. Yeah. It's been like that for a long time. It's been like that for a long time. It has, yeah. As if there's a moment. Yeah, there's been a lot of summers. Yeah. There's been a lot of summers. Yeah, not a summer. Pre the summers, it was a different. But when summers came in,

it's been out for a long time. Actually, it's funny, you should mention it. I'm really glad this. I'm surprised, because usually people shut you down when it comes to the summer. Summer chat. No, I'm actually... People think you're, you know,

something wrong with you. I don't like people who don't like summer. So, do you get that? So they think, oh, people who don't like summer are miserable. So it's like code, you know? I just totally get you. I just think it's like such a... you know, you see a bright, hot day and everyone's going.

So where are we going? What are we doing? Yeah, exactly. It needs, it's commanding you to go and worship me. Yeah, yeah. Why I really like that you think that and that I think that and that we're here now in, you know, definitely in it. Is that doing these bench conversations. Typically, oh, that'll be, she's back again.

Her outdoors. Hi there, yeah. I'll be another five minutes, yeah? I'll be with you. Yeah, and I'll walk down to you in about five minutes or so. Yeah? Okay, see in a while. So then, bye.

Yeah, I better. That's fantastic. We've got five minutes. Yeah. I was about to say that. Autumn. Yeah. I was saying how most people are on benches in the summer.

Yeah, right. And since it's been awesome and a bit colder, I haven't been out as much. Right. you know, I haven't done it for a week or so. Now it's firmly into autumn. It's nice. The first person I stumble across is someone that actually is kind of almost

enjoying it because it is autumn. Exactly. And may have not been there in the summer, which I quite like that. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like a reminder to get out there and all the seasons skiing and get different people at different places. Including winter as well, yeah.

Yeah. So we've got what? You know, we've got four minutes to go. Yeah, four minutes. The timer is running. Wife is calling. What should we do in these? in these four minutes.

What sight have you seen recently do you deem the most pure? Something you felt was just untouched by something you've seen, you know, in the flesh, not on a screen. I think it was yesterday actually and it was at British Museum and there was this tiny little boy running along towards a like a plinth with a statue on it of a man with a horse. And he was so sweet, must have been about four or five years old. And he was running all just innocent and naive and thoughtless and unself-conscious.

And his grandma was kind of keeping a protective eye over him. But she had a smile on her face. And it's a kind of romantic image I would normally not get into at all. But it just felt so pure. And it was really, really beautiful here. It was really innocent and pure, like you say. I think I connected with it somehow. It's something I normally block out, you know.

But he didn't block it out yesterday. I didn't block it out. I wondered why I was looking at it, but it was just a moment, this kind of like part of the waves. And it was just, that's it. It was like an image. It wasn't something I was looking at. It was like filmic, dreamlike.

And it was because the purity you're talking about. and normally very skeptical of, as you can imagine, relationships between parents or grandparents and children. But that just felt like she's not overpowering him. He feels genuinely free. He's just lost and she's lost in him. And it was just beautiful. Yeah.

That's a lovely description. Yeah, yeah. It's almost as if you knew the next day, someone was going to ask you for the pure moment. Well, I still have a sort of filmic eye. Yeah. I see things like that. I'd like to take from that that, you know,

that maybe something is lifting in you anyway that's allowing to see these things. Yeah, yeah. It's good to talk to you. Okay, last, no, well, when I was the answer a question, we've got probably what a minute left, I guess. Yeah, it's about, it's about now here. How have you found, what has surprised you

about talking to a stranger on a bench? I think the nice thing about it, if it is a surprise, is I felt, in a good way, like I disappeared a bit, you know, in a good way. Yeah. So, like, you use the word lifting a minute ago. I think you did, didn't you? Yeah.

Lifted, yeah. Because sometimes things are so concrete, aren't they? And it does feel more spacious. I always associate the heart with spaciousness. So it felt pretty hearty, yeah. Yeah, maybe the spaciousness has surprised me. Yeah. Hmm.

Yeah. That's a very nice way describing it. You know, that whole bubble idea you've got, it made me realise why I do connect with it. But I think, I thought there was quite some time ago, what we all miss, and it maybe does relate to the thing you said a minute ago about your friend, Ryan,

though isn't it terrible, his birthday, he's going to the office. What I could just go over the answer to your, what I found surprising about this. Every now and then, I think what, It's hard to describe it, but I think magic is the most important thing in the world.

And so children have a much more easy connection with magic. But I think that bubble you're talking about is about entering into magic. And then the magic then is put away again, when the bubble is put away. And in a way, you have to be naked

enough and small enough to enter that bubble if you're going to really hit the magic. So, But the thing about the magic is that it does open your heart, you know. And I think we experience magic really naturally when we're young. And then it goes. So I did that. Yeah.

Just what you're saying about Ryan and it's like, it's his birthday. So it's like a little boy again, but he's an adult, so he's dragging his ass to the office. And I think we really have lost a lot of magic in this world. And cinema brings that in and your dreams. and your art and your creativity. And maybe that's why I experienced when I was young, being in nature. I saw magic in animals and nature. And it just got lost too quickly, you know.

But I haven't lost it deep down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this has seemed magical to me, yeah. Yeah, beautifully said, my only thought on top of that was that, yeah, you know, we lose it, but it doesn't mean it's not there. No, it's always there. It's always there. You can't kill it.

Yeah. It's what we really are, magic. Roof? Yeah, the last question I ask people is, what are they going to do next? Just going into town, my wife, actually, yeah. Yeah, how about you? Well, I am going to have a tin of canned fish.

I wouldn't have expected that. There's an answer. I like to have a tin of fish with me when I'm doing the benches. Oh, brilliant. So I don't have to stop someone for lunch, so I can just do it quickly. Yeah, great. And then, yeah, it's going to be a hard, odd follow-up from this, but I've got the afternoon, so I see who else is out there.

Yeah, right, right. You can confess to them that you eat peanut butter out of the bucket as well. Exactly. Now I've got that out of the open. I can really just. You can freely, regularly confess it. It's been really great. Yeah, and you?

Really pleasure to me, yeah. And thank you for being just yourself and just giving it, giving it everything. Thank you. Yeah, and you, yeah. That's what good stuff happens. Smoking on the beach, slipping out of reed, just another ghost. The tide is coming in and drying everything. Out of my depth, out of my depth, out of my depth, out of my death

Who swam away from the tides all I'm a move A song I might sing now Waves so high