Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 73: Shut The F*** Up and Enjoy Your Life

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : '..and enjoy your life!' by Jay VermaStream it here : https://ffm.to/andenjoyyourlifeListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? First question, do you have a favourite day of the week? I used to.

Sunday evening used to be my favourite. favorite day of the week. Sunday evening? Yeah. That's interesting. A lot of people would say that they hated that bit because it was working the next day or Monday the next day. Well, that's why I liked it. Not many people came out and I just would go for jazz, live jazz, where those who come out

are actually avoiding all the regular craziness that... Interesting. Happens on Friday evening, Saturday evening especially. Sunday evening were your people. Yeah, exactly. That Sunday jazz. was still is special. But then again comes

Bank holiday, Monday. And that ruined my week. First of all, I never learned about it until it happened. I don't follow bank holidays. They're not important for me. They're not in a diary. Yeah.

And I'd be like, what the hell's wrong with this world? Coming to interrupt coming to interrupt my schedule. What is this? And no one even thought, of asking me or telling me beforehand. They should have written a formal apology.

Something like that. So these Sunday evenings, you still do it? I still do it all and off. Not as much, unfortunately. I'd love to go back to the religious Sunday evening routine. So what happened and what went wrong? I just, you know, the whole world gone wrong. The whole world.

Which it does that all the time, but somehow I forget. And then my forgetfulness ends up making me pay and disrupting my comfortable routines. Yeah. Tell me, as you're a creature of routine then, what else is your Sunday routine? Take me from waking up all the way through to this magical Sunday jazz time for your people. So when it used to be religious, that led me to arranging everything around it. Oh, okay. So what was...

So I'd wake up on Sunday. What time? I'd wake up early, come to the park, have my coffee. It's like you found me now. And then do laundry, shave, shower, cook, gaze up my abyss, and finish everything before 4 p.m. Everything must be finished before 4 p.m. shut down all the engines except for the jazz-related engines. Yeah. I just, yeah, go.

I was like, another thing, I'm a really big supporter of working class. and the labor unions take in action. So whenever the tube goes on strike, everyone is angry. I'm not. I'm like, good for you guys. You're going high five. Exactly. Through the railings.

Can't find any of them to give them a high five, but I'm giving them a... The railroad place and bus. You can tell the railroad place of bus. You don't like railroad replacement buses? Because they remind you of how easy the tube is. It is easy. The tube is easy. And I know a lot of people who don't understand that,

who would complain about the tube or what. whatever, and I'm like, guys, we're like living in a holiday. This is a holiday time. In comparison to other places. Yeah, good point. But the rear replacement would remind me of that in my face, so striking. Then a 20 minute journey would take you two hours and 20 minutes. And if it's summer, the sun is literally concentrated on that one bus I'm in.

The hell's wrong with you, son. And this bus move on. What's wrong with you, son? The big son. The big son. The massive fireball thing. Yeah. But it's good to be reminded

how lucky we are those sometimes. Maybe that's the beauty of a place. Oh yeah, absolutely. But the reason it angered me is I'm really good at reminding myself. To cherish the train?

Every day. To cherish everything. Oh, I cherish everything. Yeah, yeah. I love it. Big cherisher. Yeah. So when something comes to remind me,

I look at it and I'm like, I already know. I know that I'm lucky. Yeah. So you don't have to come and show. I have the replacement bus down my throat to remind me. You know what you'd be very good at?

For particular delays on the train, when they have to announce the delays, then follow-up is you going, listen, guys, you don't know how lucky you are. I've said that a hundred times. I actually had a face-off with someone on the tube in London. It was my first six months here or something. Right.

Ordinary guy, just like all of us. Just a basic guy. Yeah. And he was yelling at the stamp. on the platform because the train was late or something was something like 15 minutes or 10 minutes and he was all up in arms and I was like have you been to anywhere that does not have the London tube yeah and you told him that you were saying yeah yeah yeah and he was like have you been to Japan that was his reaction and I was like okay you're far long gone there is no remedy for you so you move on and we're gonna wait for the Did it start as a, did it get physical? No, no, no, no.

Because there's a twist here. Oh, if... You fell in love? Of course. Analytically fell in love, yes. If he was a physical person, he'd open a pathway for action. Okay. He hasn't, and I wouldn't think he ever does.

Oh, I see. So he was that kind of person who would just stir up the whole thing, but not lead to anything. Yeah. But maybe he remembers, maybe he thinks he've ever been. I hope not. I'd rather Marilyn Monroe has me on our mind. A dead Marilyn Monroe? Sure. Even that's even better.

She's grown together. She's still alive. A dead Marilyn Monroe or a dead Albert Anestine having me on their mind in the grave. Yeah, I'd rather have those think about me at night than some guy who yells at the transport worker for a 10-minute delay. Absolutely fair. Let's play a game then. Imagine you're telling a train full of passengers at rush hour. They're packed in like sardines, right?

And you, Mr. Stranger is going to pop up. So I say, the train is delayed by five minutes and now a message from our sponsor, Change your eggs. Okay. The first thing I would say is like the stage setup from the interviewer, which is you, is wrong. Because packed like sardines doesn't have it in this part of the world. You have not seen packed like sardines until you live in Cairo, a city of 22 million people, until you lived in Lagos in Nigeria, until you lived in Mumbai.

Packed like sardines doesn't fucking physically happen here. It doesn't. I really hope I'm never in that position to have to tell the tube commuters to shut the fuck up and enjoy your life. I mean, seriously, because that's the way it's going to come out. Yeah, that they would remember. Yeah. Shut the fuck up and enjoy your love. Seriously, yeah.

Love it. I remember, I give you like a personal experience. Yes. I moved from Cairo and I landed in Istanbul. I met a friend of mine who lived with us in Cairo for a while. And then we got on the tram. He was like, oh yeah, we're getting gone at the rush hour. It's crowded.

And I looked around me and I was like, dude, have you lost your mind? You were with us in Cairo. What are you talking about? The closest person to me is like 20 centimeters away. If we have this in Cairo, we would call it the grace of God. Like, I mean, listen, I complain as well, just like everyone. I think complaining and whining is a human right that should be constitutionally protected. But don't pretend that it's real.

And don't pretend that what you're saying bears any reality whatsoever. What you're saying is bullshit. You know it's bullshit. I know it's bullshit. The tube itself, the train itself, the metal knows it's bullshit. So shut the fuck up and enjoy your lives. Beautiful. Talk about complaints.

What was the last complaint you had? Even actually, it could have been internally. Could have just for yourself. I make complaints to myself all the time. That's the ongoing. conversation inside my head. There's a dozen of me sitting inside my brain complaining at least. And they're all complaining what about the other people in the dozen? Everything. Wow. Who are these figures in your brain? All versions of me. Okay. Which is disastrous.

Can we cover the 12 versions or a few different ones? There are two who are fighting all the time. Okay, hit me. One of them is the world's going to shit. The doomsday guy. Yeah. Not in a uneducated, lacking understanding perspective, but from a very educated perspective. Okay. If we can say that. So this guy's educated in there? Highly, yeah.

Highly. Then then what's the other one? The other one is also highly educated. Like, you know, if you are saying that, then what the hell are we talking about? Let's sit down beside me and have a coffee. And those two are always at play. Okay. Those they never sleep.

They're in the ring all the times. Yeah, yeah. They're like, sit down and have a coffee. The other one's like, what the hell is wrong with you? Sit down and have a coffee. I'm telling you the world's ending and you're telling me sit down and have a coffee. And it keeps on like this.

Each one of them is trying to win the argument. Are there any third players? Of course. What's the C? What's the C saying? C and D. I was like, shut the fuck up. Both of you come help me with laundry or...

Laundry. Laundry guys in there? That's what's the laundry. And it keeps going. And the same way the world never stops producing assholes, my brain never stops producing those versions of myself sitting there at this infinite table. And all of them have a piece to say. I'm like, you know, what am I supposed to do?

I was like, one of them is going to show up and be like, burn the table. Just burn everything. So let's imagine brain guy number, the B one, went on a holiday for a week, right? And so you were just left with Doomsday Guy. Okay. Is he calling you to action? What's Doomsday Guy wanting from you? Well, see, it's a very good point.

I hope it was achievable, but I don't think it is. But we're always fighting to declutter and put down the noise in some parts so we can focus on other parts. And I have been specialized for a long time. And a part of that, it was very... necessary to have tunnel vision. Just sit with this one guy. Either it's the Doomsday guy or it's the coffee guy or it's the I don't care guy. I'm gonna burn the table and walk away, go to the pub. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to get to that point at some stage to be

able to reach some sort of point. Yes. If that's possible that would be actually comfortable. The only problem is people who try to get to that point of the magical moment of tunnel vision where everything fades in the background except for what you're working on. If we try to achieve that, we're trading off so many other things. Your park time on the bench, you're trading off your personal hygiene. You don't shower once a day, you end up showering once a week. You give up the entire world to be inside the cocoon of specialization and focus. And it's a very dangerous trade-off.

Yeah. I understand, I think. Basically what you're saying is it's not possible for you to focus on it for any amount of time properly to form an action or not. I think based on experience, it is, because I have done it before for a stretch of 10 years. Okay. Where I was specialised in a specific line of work and a specific line of subject. Related to Doomsday? Very related.

Really? Yeah. Can you say what it was? Security, terrorism and military in the Middle East. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Fair play.

Yeah. And then you were doing that for 10 years? No, I've done it for longer than 10 years. But the really hardcore tunnel vision part of it was five years on top of that three more years of 60% focus. And then I eased my way out of it. Because as I told you, it's a very dangerous play. because there's a world out there. You have other things out there

that you need to do. So you were you in a position of power? No. I fucking don't want to be in a position of power. You're working for people in a position of power. No. The only time I meet people in position of power is to tell them that you're stupid motherfuckers.

Sorry. I wasn't working for anyone at all, by the way. Totally unaffiliated, independent. I was working for myself. Oh, okay. Tell me more? I'm an investigative journalist. Okay.

Right, I see now. Okay, but you were trying to expose from people? Yeah, I tried, I did, yeah. Very successfully. Was your life ever in danger? Yeah, absolutely. What was that like? Well, it varied from being shot out to being told that if you ask those questions,

we're going to cut your head off, to being told that if you continue down that route, you're going to disappear, to dodging prison, to dodging, all sorts of danger, but at the same time to meeting some of the most brilliant people in the face of this earth. Yeah. Wow. I mean, there's lots of the questions. One I'm interested in how you go from that life to sitting at a park in London. I wonder how that transition worked, but let's go back to the big shot at. Do you know who shot you, who shot,

aimed a shot at you? It was mostly government people, uniformed servicemen. Yeah. Fucking servicemen. What kind of service is this? You come and shoot at me. Well, yeah.

I suppose service to someone, I guess. Like, what was the scenario? Can you paint the picture? There are multiple times, but... Pick your favourite one? I mean, I can't say a favorite one, but I mean, at the end of the day, they're all my favorites because I survived all of them.

Well, pick the most dramatic, I suppose. I'd say there are two of them that were really... mind-boggling because of how I survived. And it didn't make any sense. One time in Cairo, we were rushing before beginning of curfew so we can get two missing ingredients for a recipe. Ask me and a friend.

I'm not joking. For food? For food? Yeah. I think it was the only thing we had ingredients for. There were two missing ingredients. So we're running down. We were very close to police headquarters. And as we were trying to get home, we were walking down the street.

and those policemen show up and they're telling everyone to go back the other way and they start shooting. One of them shoots a shotgun round. Okay, right. And me and my friend are docking in the entrance of a building. So we hear the pellets hitting everything around us. Mind you, pellets are really, really impossible to avoid if you're at close range. Right. One bullet is going to hit you in one place. The shotgun pellets, they fan out.

Yes. Smaller, much less lethal, but they will hit you. And we were not hit, neither me or my friend. This guy was literally a couple of meters away, and we survived, untouched. Do you think on reflection that they were kind of trying to miss you? Do you think, as a sense, trying to scare someone? Or they actually trying to hit you do? But this is, again, this is a very depressing thing to think about because they're not aiming

at us. Yeah. They're aiming at everyone. It doesn't matter if it's you, it doesn't matter if it's me. just aiming at everyone, they want to turn the whole world down back to the other side of the street. I see. But that does not deny the intent to cause harm. That actually proves the intent to cause whatever harm and I don't care. And in that situation, it was hitting the marble walls where we were trying to duck and you start asking, how did I survive us? Yeah.

So what did you do that after you survived? Did you still have that meal? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, off the mate? Yeah. What are you going to do? Well, good point. What do you do with yourself that night when you know, like, you know, you could have died, whatever? I think we just forgot about it. We mentioned it the next day in passing and we laughed.

It really doesn't bear any value after you get to the point where you realize all the questions around it are futile. But then, do you feel very kind of lucky? Oh, I thought I told you that at the beginning. I'm always lucky. I don't need to replace me. my best to remind me that I'm lucky and be grateful. This is a good point. Yeah.

But I wonder like what, you know, how that affects how you live your life. I suppose it does after all these events, no? Of course. How are you different today? Do I mean, what are you doing differently? It's a good question. Maybe had I not been through those experiences, maybe I would not be as grateful and as confessing that I'm lucky as I am today.

Maybe I would have been cocky, full of attitudes, asshole who thinks, they can take the world by a storm or they can look at the transport guy and be like oh the cube is late have you been to Japan maybe I would have been that guy when was the last time you thought

apart from getting on a train when was the last time you did feel particularly grateful for something as a practicing grateful person I mean listen I don't want this episode of your podcast to turn into an interview with a Buddha or a Zen person who just came down from the mountain. I mean, we are quite high up. So now, I mean, but listen, in general,

let's connect this to, if you allow me, to connect this to something more realistic. You're allowed. Thank you. Permission granted. So I remember when COVID hit. And people started running into shops and, like, you know, toilet paper.

Toilet paper. original. Do you hear during that? Yeah. Yeah. And I was just standing there rolling my eyes thinking what the hell is wrong with this world? Seriously? People love toilet roll. Yeah, yeah. It's the first to go. I mean, for me, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind in stressful situation is how can I put together my gear bag in less than one minute and bolt out of the door. I had to do it for so long that, yeah. And I also lived out of this gear bag, the necessities bag, for weeks and end in the middle of nowhere. So, yeah. So the idea of like all the other clutter of like the train is just late for 10 minutes. Actually, I love when my train is late for 10

minutes. I can smoke another cigarette. Yeah. So can we go back to the special bag of yours? What would I be surprised to find in the bag? Well, you're going to find the things that I cannot replace in the case of anything going wrong, but I need those things to be able to float safely for a few weeks. So computer, phone, battery, mids, two pairs of underwear, two pairs of socks for changing. Nice. Any particular color of the socks are the underwear, important? Black. Yeah.

You do not want to be stuck in white underwear if you can't guarantee a shower. or socks for that reason. Fair. No. I mean, they're going to be nasty anyway, but there's a difference between nasty, visible white and less visible black. Got it.

Okay. That's important lesson to learn for the special bag. Basic stuff like that. I mean, some people's basic stuff is chocolate bars or protein bars, which actually are important. They're not important in the UK, but there are other parts of the planet right now

where a protein bar is considered a miracle. Yeah. Gaza's trip, Sudan. Of course. Yeah. Think about that. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's pretty much the bag. So quite a small bag? That's the point.

You've got to move quickly. You're going to be carrying that bag. Yeah. You know, one way of trying this, which I do all the time, is I hike in the country. And it always reminds me of the weight of my backpack. Interesting. Yeah. When did you go hiking?

Whenever I can. Oh, so you just enjoy it? Yeah, I love it, yeah. Oh, fantastic. Where'd you go? Hiking. What's the longest hike over that? 25 kilometers every day for a stretch of five, six days.

Oh wow. Yeah. In this country? Yeah. I picked up the love for when I had to do it because I was working in places where there was no transport. There was no way for you to get from village A to village B. Can you think of your best encounter with a stranger whilst hiking? Anything come to mind?

It's a very interesting encounter. I was hiking with my girlfriend. I think it was South Wales. In the middle of nowhere, on a hill that ends up being a ridge straight into the ocean. And as we're hiking, we see this lonesome guy carrying an IKEA bag, one of those big blue ones. Yeah, yeah. Very useful bags.

Yeah. And he's in the middle. nowhere and the bag was empty there was nothing in it so he was either you were sure there's nothing in the back yeah it was just flapping about it was like yeah and yeah we always think about this guy yeah i really i would have loved had the opportunity that presented itself to approach this guy and be like man please put me out of my misery and tell me what the hell are you doing here did he get much look of his face he was tall he had a thin face he had a thin face He did not look at all like a hiker.

Like he wasn't wearing hiking boots. He was just wearing ordinary clothes. He wasn't even wearing waterproof gear. That guy was just wandering about with his IKEA bag, not a worry in the world, and leaving us all. Perplexed. Still talking about him? Maybe that's what we're going to do to be known in life.

Walk around an empty bag. If this guy was walking in London, no one would think about it. No one would see him. So this is hiking with your girlfriend? Yeah. One of the key benefits of go at hiking with girlfriend, hiking without. You laugh. You laugh, you're happy.

So this is with her? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mind you, again, I'm very lucky. My girlfriend, she can hike throughout the day. Powerhouse? Yeah. We've walked together in the sunniest most beautiful days and in minus 25 degrees.

Yeah, if you have... There's a couple who walk together, stay together? No, we don't live together. Oh. But you are together? Oh yeah, there you go. Has that aided your romance? Yeah, of course.

Yeah, of course. Say a couple was listening to this, or at least someone in a couple. Why is walking together important to a relationship? I mean, I'm the last person to be asked about a relationship. I mean, if any ordinary person looks up my kind of relationship, they would think that is the most illogical, unhealthy, unproductive relationship ever. simply because it's unconventional. Okay, well, tell me about it.

Yeah. What's unconventional about it? Oh, the very first reason I insisted on meeting this woman is she had a fight with me before we met. So I was like, hang on. She had a fight with you before you met, so on the internet. Yeah, so we in passing floated the idea of meeting on Wednesday. And then we hadn't confirmed, we hadn't set a time or a meeting place.

So on that Wednesday, I just got up. I went to the Irish pub. I sat down and got myself a good old beer. Or a good old string of beers. Yeah. To be precise. Fact. And then I think she messaged me, so I messaged back,

and she was angry that it's Wednesday and we're not meeting. What the hell is going on? And my reaction was like, we had a set of time or a place, so what's up? And she got worked up, so I called her, and she hung up on me. So I was like, I want to meet this woman. I want to meet who the fuck is this woman who hangs up on me before even seeing my face? Like, this is the one. So I called her immediately back.

If I'm going to partner with someone, I'd like to partner with someone who I can trust to go to war with me. And hung up on people. Exactly. What's her version of interest? Her version was I said Wednesday and then I just didn't care and didn't show up on Wednesday. Or something like that. I see. You're asking me to give strength to her version of the story on the record.

It's not going to happen, brother. It's not going to happen. So you mentioned it was an unconventional relationship. Is it still unconventional? So you don't live together. But what else is unconventional about it? I think the unconventional thing about relationship is the beauty of it. We have completely different lives and at the same time we have the most love to each other.

We can do anything together. We can forage in the forest together or go dine at the most luxurious seven-star place together. be hiking and figuring out where to fill up the water next or popping champagne together and it all works out so beautifully yes what has she taught you about the world she told me that this guy could be saying it's doomsday remember the guy I told you oh you remember that guy well you can forget that guy and I put everything down and going to hike with her not a worry in the world what does she think of doomsday guy she's she's the most cheerful person ever I don't want my girlfriend to worry about the doomsday guy she's

of course highly intelligent she's highly educated she's in the thick of professional public work and she is thinking about about major things and big things and everything. But I don't want her to be worried about the world. No, enough for one of us. I'm happy to do that. You'll carry that burden. You'll carry doomsday guy with you.

Yeah. And you won't let them out. Yeah, exactly. Let's imagine someone's listening to this. They've never been on a hike. What would you say is the minimum distance for a hike? We'll see, the same as people have put all of those specifications for a good relationship or specifications for a good day to go out.

Like, it has to be Friday because you don't have work the desire. I'm like, who the fuck came up with those manuals and was this a democracy or was this a just, you know, some sort of dictatorship? It's like, you know, so a hike can be any distance. That's what you're saying. Exactly. Well, whatever you want. Okay, so back to the question, which was you're trying to, you know, give the three key

reasons why this person has never been on a hike of any distance should go on a hike. said it. It's an easy, free of charge, very effective healing mechanism. Like, you really want to have a comfortable day. Just put your wallet and your phone in your pocket and just go out and walk aimlessly. Yeah. I mean, I can give you another sort of what they actually have to do these days on podcasts. is that you have to keep listing so many good things about something so basic so you convince people of it.

It's like, it burns calories. It's good for the bones. It's good for the knees. I have one busted knee and one busted leg, effects of my work and life in general. I think it was a month after I had my knee surgery. I went on a hike with my girlfriend. And guess what? It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever done.

It healed my self-confidence after the surgery to go on a walk. It's just a fucking walk. That's what humans do. Very true. That's why we have legs. They've got to use them. Speaking of being grateful, the UK is one of the most beautiful, naturally beautiful countries in terms of countryside, open spaces, nature.

like one of the best mapped countries in terms of hiking paths in the world. Of course someone is going to be like, have you been to Japan? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. You grew up in color, I guess? No. Oh, okay. Where were you born? No.

No. No. You don't want to talk about it? That would lead to more questions and more questions. They have to turn this into one of those podcasts of today. Can you say when you grow up? I grew up in different places, in different continents. Do you consider yourself from any other?

Okay, yeah. That's pretty much why I try to avoid that conversation, those questions altogether. You don't need the least favorite questions. They need a bigger question of identity. That's actually not where I was going, though. Where were you going? going. I was going to I wanted to know what a kind of

typical childhood day looked like for you wherever it was. No, it didn't have a typical childhood. I had a loving family. I had everything that a child... Are they still loving? Yeah, yeah, of course. Again, unconventional but it's perfectly fun.

Lots of different schools, I guess, then? Yeah, absolutely. How many? Six, seven, I don't remember. That's a lot. Yeah. So I'm kind of interested in how you think, at least, you became you. No, it was a long string of everything that formed whatever comes next. And you were always allowed to be whatever you needed to be, or did anyone get in the way? As far as I'm concerned, yeah. Yeah, I always had a temper. I was a crazy kid, of course.

Of course. Yeah, yeah. How big a temper are we talking about? Oh, I had a temper when I was younger. Yeah. But that went? Nowadays, I managed to have enough temper towards my temper that I made it submit.

It works for me now. One of the things that really put a leash on my everything in general is that I didn't have room to have emotions and temper if you have to deal with checkpoints and rogue militaries. rogue militaries and criminal police divisions and ISIS and fucking wars. And in the midst of all of that, a bunch of spies running in the middle and you have to keep a pair eyes in the back of your head. It was a grind.

And the idea of emotions and all of that just got pushed to the side because there was no place for it to drain more energy and to... So you just couldn't? But then once you were finally settled, do that mean that temper is finally put? put away or it could come out to play a bit more? No, I think the main question I think that controls all of this when you grow up,

actually grow up mentally. Yeah. Is that you start thinking about the question of, is it worth it? But I think since, as far back as I can remember, I've been really good at walking away. If I read a situation, it's futile.

I just pick up and walk away. Or give them five pounds and a beer and be like, off. So that is that a big style of yours? You have lots of fivers on you and just give people a fiver and say, fuck off. That's quite a good tactic. Yeah, I had a wake-up call about cash and carrying cash a couple days ago.

I was getting on the tube and I found two coins on the seat I was about to sit in. So I looked around me, there was no one in the guy across the aisle. He looked at me and he was like, it's for you. Take your money. Yeah. And that was the first time I held physical cash in my hand in over a year. Oh, wow. And again, it reminded me of necessity and the bag.

You always have to have cash at home. Cash in the bag? Somewhere in your book, in your cupboard, whatever. It's like under the mattress. It's a very basic human thing that everyone all around the world did at some point. Oh, did? And should have today. Oh.

Like everything is on the phone and all those systems are reliant on the cell. tower and I don't consider that cell tower to be a brother. It's not a brother, not a member of your family. So you have to, so you've got cash at home? Yeah, you have to. Absolutely. How much do you have to have? It depends where you are, but it was like last time I had to have a money belt.

It was between Egypt, Libya and Gaza, and a money belt was $5,000. And that would keep you going for maybe a couple of weeks, three weeks, four weeks. Yeah. But of course, not everyone can have a... can have a spare $5,000 on their hand. So I'd say whatever it is, 50 pounds, 100 pounds, it doesn't matter. Just put it away at home just in case. That makes sense.

I understand most people can't relate, but I have been in blackouts before. Luckily the blackouts that I've experienced were government-controlled blackouts. Yes. They would shut down the system themselves. Okay. And I saw what happened. and I was in a position where I had cash. I've got the cash is fine.

Yeah. I like it. So we've got to keep the cash in a book, do you say? It's like, yeah, because I'm finicky. I'd like to keep my cash crisp and smooth. So are you quite finicky? So you like things in order? As much as I can, yeah.

Is your room very tidy? I'd say it's in the top 5%. Oh, okay. I like it. Yeah. I'd like to have an old school life manager. Older lady with a really tough attitude that would put me in my place. Like someone in a boarding? Like a boarding?

No, no, not to that extent. I'd like someone to make me a cup of tea that I would like and bring it to me. Yeah? Yeah. So a maid? Do you want a maid? No, a life manager is like, you know, you got to do this. You don't do them after reminding. they would have their way of making you do it.

I see. I mean, I'd be like, listen, my desk, don't touch it. Okay. What's wrong with the desk? It's going to end up becoming a territorial war. I want it this way. You're very particular about the desk. Walk me through what's on your desk and how it's arranged?

There are a bunch of things on my desk that make absolutely no sense. Oh, please say. But I like them and they are all organized in a sort of way. Okay, tell me. There's a bunny that lights green, red, and yellow, a plastic bunny. And it's sitting there in between the pens and a couple of really, really heavy subject books about philosophy and pain and futurism. And if the house manager comes near the desk, she's going to be like, those books have been

sitting here for three years, you haven't touched them. And I'm like, maybe I... Maybe I will touch them. Yeah, maybe I will. at a certain point in the distant future. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so the sweetbeats and the bunny, that's it?

Oh, many other things. Oh, okay. Anything else you can mention? I have three empty coffee tins that have around 50 pens in them. Each? No, all three together. Oh, cross them.

Yeah. And most of them are the same exact model black black pen and the 10 others are different kinds. Oh, why do you just go across the hole? Exactly, here you go. It's not your business, I don't have to answer that question. Who the fuck do you think you are to question me on this? See, it does not have to make sense to you, literally because it's not of your fucking

business. I love it. And all the questions I ask as if I get to the pens, that's when it's too much. Absolutely fair. I have interest, the volume of pens is quite interesting. Is that because you write a lot, furiously? That's none of your business. I like it like that.

That's the only reason you get to get. I've still glad we did it. I have no regrets. I've no regrets of going down the alleyway towards your death. I'm glad. I'm glad I got a picture. I'm also glad that I've set the boundaries. As I've given you notice before,

there's always a fiver in my pocket, and that fiver is ready to go. any moment it's an interesting thing about you know questioning others especially I mean I understand questioning everything yeah but questioning others is something that I've never stomached and mind you I lived my entire professional career asking questions yeah and I wasn't just asking questions to someone in a five-star office no I would willingly go into a terrorist-controlled territory, an ISIS-controlled territory, and ask them questions,

and illicit answers. But again, in a normal, everyday life, this whole questioning of others is very, very difficult to stomach. And there's a very big difference between asking a question and questioning someone. Like, do you have a pen? That's fine. What's the point of having 50 I'm like the point is it's not your business. Did you ever ask terrorists about pens? No. Oh. So you went in there?

Yeah. Do you think you're thinking of yourself as a brave person? Not really. So how does one go and talk to? So you just rock up in an ISIS-run territory? And then what do you say? Take me to meet someone? First of all, you don't rock up.

You don't rock up? You call ahead? Yeah, exactly. And then you're saying. or just asking them a few questions? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what are you saying, hang on? So you're saying, I'm writing a piece or I'm...

Exactly. I'm a journalist, I'm working on this and this and that. I have a few questions for you. Yeah. Yeah. You must have been in some tense rooms when people don't want to answer questions. Yeah, we call them tense, yeah.

Yeah. So what are your tactics then when they don't want to answer any questions? Do you push them when you do that? Pushing doesn't work. Pushing leads to the same exact result as you questioning my feelings. 50 pens. Yeah.

So how do you how do you play it when you're in that situation? It boils down to human psychology, which as the range there's human psychology is and complex and

crazy and erratic, there's always that need in all of us humans to speak our minds and to say our peace. I want to be heard. And that

transcends all the boundaries of low abiding citizen, podcast maker, doctor, a homeless person. It's just a human thing. True. Well, I've seen that. My travels, I get that. What do you, I mean, hang on, so let's, in these terrorist organizations, you're talking to what figures? Towards the top of the hierarchies or just in somewhere along the line?

Well, I realized that most of the time it was far more beneficial to speak to the ones who had not no power whatsoever than to speak to someone higher up. The ones who had no power whatsoever had more freedom to speak their mind clearly. Does make sense. What would surprise people to hear about those organizations that you talk to? What are the common misconceptions

that you think people have? Whenever you look at a map of someone else's a cumulative circumstances, upbringing, all of that, as you were trying to ask me like where did I live or did I grow up? How did I grow up? Whatever. And you realize that the more you look at those charts of someone's life, you start wondering, okay, what would come out of me if I was the person who went through that whole life

story? And the idea that some criminal or some podcast maker or some journalist or some doctor were just born and destined to become this person that they are today when I met them and spoke with them is completely not just false. It is so fucking stupid and it's so disassociated from reality and how the world and the universe work. It's not even worth the debate. It's one of the most striking points that I find worth articulating.

Yeah. I see. What made you stop all this then? Getting old. Getting tired. It was like my work when I investigated ISIS between Egypt, Libya and Gaza. I got to a point where it was impossible

to continue that work physically on the ground if I want to remain alive. So, what's in this new life of yours? I... I have to referect. You have to referect. phrase that question. What is it? What is it? Sorry, I was a bit distracted by this couple. Me too. I think they're having an argument about her interested in flowers. Yeah, the guy made himself very clear from the beginning. He was like, I'm not interested in flowers.

Which I was waiting for him to take a few steps further so I can say, what a fucked up statement. I'm not interested in flowers. How are you supposed to engage with such a statement? Yeah, fair. Sorry, yeah, my badly asked question, let's go back to it. Are you still an investigative journalist now, basically? I'm going to break at the moment. Okay. Yeah. There are things that you cannot shake off. So, yeah, parts of it, I don't think we'll ever stop.

Yeah. And I don't think I want them to stop. Yeah, fair. Do I want to stop following the news properly in a smart, useful manner? Absolutely not. I think I want actually millions and millions of people to start doing that themselves. Yeah. Fair. So in this kind of vacuum, element of vacuum time, is anything emerged that you've become fascinated by that isn't related to that at all? Yeah, there is something actually.

So recently I started thinking about video games. Mind you, I haven't played video games in around 20 years. but again as soon as I dip my toes I began to analyze the situation which killed it so like wait a second video games possible addiction

hours on end I can't get it out of my head I have to kill this project before it even takes off so you must have stopped a lot of fun times in the past I guess this brain of yours my phone was a completely different kind of fun yeah

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, it led me to doing some other things that are priceless. Yeah, of course. But it's a very interesting thing because I could pick up now and go to a field where I would have plenty of that. The world has no shortage of wars or crises or famine or crime-infested regions. A quick question here before you carry on. What's the war that we don't know enough about? As in it's not...

All of them. What's the war that is not getting enough headlines, in your opinion? All of them. Some of them are getting all the headlines. Yeah, I mean, Sudan is not getting enough headlines. Yeah, that's what I mean. Absolutely. Yeah?

Man-made famine. Man-made war. Why do you think it's not getting enough headlines? There's definitely a reason. I worked all my career on a blacked-out subject, as in it's not on the news. No media attention. Most of the time that no media attention is government made, intimidation of journalists, physical blocking of journalists' access.

Gaza is not getting enough headlines, by the way. I've been to Gaza, I've worked on Gaza. But it's still getting headlines. Well, we'll see, there's a difference between having a headline and actually having journalistic coverage of the situation. Would you have gone? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I made a call the next day.

But I knew that there's only embed with the military. And I'm like, no, I haven't done it when there was no enforced siege. I'm not going to do it now. I mean, these last two years have been absolutely a horror show for everybody to witness. But for you, has it meant anything different? I tell you, the very sad point is that the first week of the war, I received two calls from two people. We know each other's work.

We're very connected from different sides to this whole regional mess of Gaza, Israel, Egypt, all of that. And both of them were like, you told this is going to happen, that Gaza is going to blow up. For a journalist, when it comes to bad shit, being right beforehand is very painful. because you have spent time working and telling everyone that there's a crisis coming. There's a crisis coming. No one listened. In my case, I told governments. I told the public.

I published. I sat in conferences. I sat in briefings. I sat in, yeah. And then no one fucking listened. And that is something I've said to governments before. Where the fuck were you? But again, if we look at human history,

It's like a human feature that we never do something beforehand. We're really, really shitty. Just react. We're reactive. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can't really say that we're reacting because we've created the mess in the first place. So you felt a kind of a painful sense of, is it powerlessness? Like, you know, you...

Every specialized journalist in the world has two basic, lines you can say either we absolutely have no power we know that we have no power so we're always going to be disappointed you're just the guy holding the alarm

bell ringing it all the fucking time and no one listens or some others see it from the perspective of it's not my job to fix anything my job is sounding the alarm that's it

Yeah. But again, it's a very difficult place to be, and they have to live with it. Yeah. You know. But you know people on the ground there? Of course. Yeah, of course. How often do you talk to them?

As often as the world allows it. We've really ruined people's mood at the podcast, right? We should have stuck with the have you been to Japan guy? No, it's good to get the, you know, full breadth. Full breadth of staff. That's what I say. Listen, I'm going to ask you two more questions and I'm going to leave you alone. What's the kindest thing a stranger has done for you recently?

The kindest thing a stranger has done for me? I can't remember anything recently. That's very unfortunate. I never thought about it, but it's very unfortunate. Never, no. Okay. I mean, the kind stranger let you have those coins. Those coins I actually gave to the,

delivery guy a couple days ago, I think I was watching the news at night and it was making me so pissed off that as soon as I saw the notification that the delivery guy was around the corner, it immediately came to my mind that the only thing I can do about my anger towards the news is to just take those two coins and I gave them to the guy. I was like, I think that is a kind thing that was done to me by a stranger because if that guy hadn't showed up with the delivery and made me give him the coins, I would have not felt good about anything in this hour when I was watching the news, which I tell you is not the most enjoyable activity. I'm with you and there, I'm with you.

Let's say this, what do you think is invisible about you? Let's imagine you go to a pub and people are talking to you all evening. What do you think they're not seeing at all? My work. You don't talk about it? Yeah. It opens up conversations and questions and pushes me closer and closer, very close to the five pounds. Yeah. Yeah. So you're talking about it.

The only reason I haven't given you a five pounds and told you to fuck off is that I accepted that you sit down and record a podcast with me. It's like, had you been a random person, you would have gotten that five or the first ten minutes or so. Well, I'm glad. Glad you recording you. What is the, you know, what if they could, you know, everyone's gonna come sniffing around someone's job, right? Yeah. So does that mean you're very good at going, no, well, let's talk about your football team?

Do I mean? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think the last conversation at the pub was about me either becoming a ballet dancer or an underwear fashion model. What did he land on? I was told not to go towards ballet dancer. And why?

Danny, the fucker, said that I'm, too old. For ballet dancing? Yeah. What does Danny know? Exactly. What was the other watch of ballet or? Underway fashion model.

Underweight fashion. You can also do that. You could do both. Yeah, absolutely. In one day. You could walk down this path doing both. Tomorrow's the day. Despite how far humans have come in the so-called civilized world,

I don't think waltzing through the park, balleying in underwear would be considered an acceptable thing. I reckon you could do it in this part. In this part? Yeah. You're not from here. I can tell you, I can tell you're not from here. No, but I mean, you know, everyone that's passed us look like they're fairly tolerant, accepting people.

We're not balleying in underwear. This is good point. This is a good point. Yeah, that's a good shout. Yeah, I didn't think about that. But I mean... I mean, listen, I'll tell you this. In all seriousness,

we had exchanged numbers after the podcast. You find the place where we can do that. And when you find it, you call me, I'll come and meet you. I'll buy you lunch. And you show us the way. I'll be 10 yards away from you behind the tree with a shield looking at you,

be recording and I will wish you well. I will hope that that ends on a good note. I love that. I love that. That's a plan. If ever there was one, that's a plan. Okay, but an ultimate thing I ask people to do, I'm going to close my eyes, I'm going to invite you to the same thing. Okay. And then I'm going to ask you to picture a scene from your past that you can remember in vivid detail and kind of be back to there and then ask you to describe that. Can that work? Yeah. Let's do it then.

My eyes are closed. Okay. So it's not an empty room. It's an open space. It's the desert in Egypt. And people think about desert in general, and they think it's barren, it's useless, it's, Dead? No, absolutely not. Desert is so beautiful, far more beautiful than I guess a cornfield or an apple orchard, but it's not a competition of beauty.

The point is the grandness of nature and the freedom of nature. And it's very interesting that we need that grand, vast, vast, thing that is bigger than us to give us our line of sight. Without that, you're not going to have what you feel as the sense of freedom that we describe when we're in the country. And it's alive, by the way. Desert is 100% alive. The sand particles are moving. The dunes are changing between seasons. They are transforming if there's heavy rain or absolutely no rain. Yeah. Very good answer. Love that. Delicious. Thank you. Well, we've reached the end.

As we always do. As we always do. So the last question for you, what are you going to do next? Are you today or tomorrow or in general? Both everything today, whatever you want. I don't want to get up, start walking home and wondering what the hell? What hell's wrong with this guy? Why didn't I give him a fiver and let him go like the last one? I just said, what have I gotten myself into? I, to be honest, I haven't planned anything.

Well, I actually had planned anything and you ruined it. You showed up and derailed the whole plan. So we have to come up with a new plan. I'm fucking be grateful again. And being grateful is the only thing that would make me forget about you derailing my plans. Thank God for your gratefulness. Save me. Where are my coins?

I'm going to start dropping coins now. Seriously. Just one note if you allow me to... You go for it. You go for it. I know that everything is paid for by card. But go to the ATM once a month, take out 30 pounds, take one pound each day with you. It's really important.

There are homeless people. There's like, you know, there's stuff that we stopped doing that was regular act of kind. Yeah, true. Yeah. And coins were one of the easiest acts of kindness that we used to do. Let's get coins back. I mean, seriously, it's like you can't give them anything. Yeah, very true.

Let's all have coins in our pockets in our coins. Pocket money? Yeah, pocket money, exactly. That's what it is. Yeah. I mean, if there's any useful message that we can send through your podcast, that coins. Well, thank you.

That's a good final message. I've just realized, I never asked you if you have been to Japan. Japan. I don't have a fibre on me. That's what you're looking for. Don't push it. Thank you so much for your time. Most welcome. It's a pleasure.

Easy. On strike.