Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 81: Down For Life

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'River Talk' by Adam MelchorStream it here : https://ffm.to/rivertalkListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello. So it's bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Are you ready? Sure. Me and you're on a bench already going to happen once. All right, all right. In front of this crazy Thatch building. Yeah, it's a good place to do. This is the first time I'm about. done the one in front of the Thatch building.

Yeah, right. So we're breaking new ground already. Yeah, right. Is there a day of the week that you favor? Not Monday. Let's roll that one out. Straight off.

Ruled out Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably Sunday is nice, man. What's wrong with Monday? Just... Ah, it's after the best day, so it's going to be a letdown, you know? Very fair. Let's go back to this Sunday of yours then.

Walk me through this Sunday. from getting up all the way through to going to bed. What is your ideal Sunday, you know, well-lived? Well, I have to admit my wife brings me coffee in the morning to wake me up. But in fairness, I'm the one who sets the coffee up at night. Okay, I'm so. It's a team effort in a way. Team effort brings the coffee, wake up, go straight to the porch, smoke some tobacco, do some writing. Get ready for the day.

What are you writing? Philosophy. writing a book on colonialism right now. And then go to the river, swim in the river. And then, you know, whatever errands I have, you know, mow the lawn, all that American stuff. And maybe go ride my skateboard with my friends, 5.30, something like that.

And then make the coffee for the next morning. What part of that day is most sacred to you? I think going to the water was very, very sacred to me. I live right by a bunch of cricks. I live in Pennsylvania. So swimming, coffee. I don't know which I prefer. Those are my two favorite things, maybe.

Let's focus in on the river. Take me through the ritual of that. Well, I try to go to water every day if I can, even when it's cold. But in the summer, it's really wonderful because it's hot. out so you walk down to the river, which is a couple blocks from my house in Pennsylvania, and this tiny little town. And yeah, sit by the river, pray a little bit, ask the river if I can come in, swim a little bit, maybe see some fish. Actually, yesterday I swam at night as well, and I imagined a big sturgeon, because there used to be sturgeon in the river. And then

my friend texts me the next day and says, I just got a sturgeon tattoo. And I was like, okay, So, yeah, say hello to the river, talk to the river a little bit, sit on the rocks, and when the feeling's right, move on to the next thing. When you're talking to the river, you're talking before you get in a whilst you're in. Both, both. Kind of got to ask the river permission, you know, because you're, first of all, putting yourself in jeopardy if you don't respect the water. And then ask the river how it's doing, you know, just like all these plants and trees, you know, how are you? what's going on? And then maybe when you're swimming, whatever messages come to you,

like you think you see a sturgeon, and then it turns out maybe that was meaningful, and you didn't know it. So you got to watch out for the beavers, because I went in the other day, and the beaver slapped its tail. And then I got in the water, and it slapped its tail again. And I said, okay, I'm out.

Okay. The beavers were warning. Yeah, they're getting me. Against. Yeah, they're like, get out of here. This is too close to the lodge, you know. Can a beaver attack? I didn't want to find out.

That's fair. That is very fair. Can you think of your most important swim in that river as in a time when you found it most healing? I think fairly recently there's been some very important moments because my sister's very sick. you know and so that weighs on me right and a friend told me hey you know when you're on the water think about being in your mother's womb and think about going to a place of security and safety

and her giving me that advice swimming and thinking okay you know i'm i'm safe somehow it connected me to my sister and to our mother so i think that was a pretty recent one i really really felt but it was back in the womb for a moment, you know. So, yeah. See, who knew what you were getting into? I guess you never know with a stranger on a bench. That's the magic. That's the magic.

What's your relationship with her sister like? Good. You know, my sister, she spent a lot of her life taking care of others, and now she's sick, so it's time for her to prioritize herself. So we text a lot and call a lot. she visits when she can so yeah we have a good relationship she's the big sister so she

looks out for me you know so trying to look out for her a little bit if I can if I ask you to transport yourself back to to childhood time with your sister is there a memory that doesn't have to be I quite like the idea of quite mundane memory

it doesn't have to be dramatic or time with your sister it stands out there's a couple but one was interesting because this was when we were living in Kansas City. She's nine years older. And we were going to the library, and we took the city bus. And two things happened. One was somebody came up and gave us a Bible and said,

this is for you and your son. And I just looked at her like, that's not my mom, that's my sister. And then the other one was while I was on the bus for some, reason. I was very small. I pointed to a man and I said, why is he so fat? My poor sister had to try to explain and defend and do all that stuff. And yeah, I remember, you know, yeah, taking the city bus to the library and getting in adventures with my sister mom. She was an older sister who sometimes took on the role of mom. What did she teach you? Do you think that your mom didn't? I mean, it were like, you know, what did you get from that? Gosh, man.

That is deep. Well, I think she taught me that, you know, where you come from and maybe how you've been treated when you're little doesn't necessarily mean you have to follow in those footsteps, that you can change, that you can break patterns in families, and you can take care of yourself and that that's okay. You know, like, I just got off an airplane and they always say, put the oxygen mask on yourself first.

But that's decent advice, so I think she's taught me, it's okay to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. You mentioned breaking patterns. Can you think, example, in your life where you've broken a pattern? Yeah, I mean. Swerve around it or find a new part.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of passion in my family. the passion becomes a little bit self-destructive when people kind of indulge too much in different things, whether it's, you know, the obvious stuff with drinking or something or even just being an artist and living on your own and finding a small place in Kansas and not interacting with the world and just becoming too self-indulgent with your own project. I think the habit of just staying socialized, just getting out of the house and doing things.

So do you put yourself in this passionate bracket? Hey, hey, hey, hey, I'm in recovery. I mean, I, yeah, sure, sure. I mean, I come from a family of artists, musicians, teachers, preachers, and I don't know, if I stay humble and if I'm able to, not think so highly of myself and you know I'm a teacher as well just kind of meet my students where they are and I don't know life doesn't have to be so serious I agree yeah yeah it doesn't have to be even though I sit and wake up in the morning and

write about anti-colonialism life doesn't have to be I mean someone's going to do it hopefully yeah right right you mentioned your recovering do you say yes from Well, you know, I kind of meant that in a broad sense. Oh, okay. But close to us this vehicle. Yeah, that was close. But yes, but alcoholism is a very prominent thing in my family. And you experience that yourself?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. But yeah, I'm sober now. I had to get to a point where it wasn't appealing. What was that point? I don't know. Just a few years ago, it just was like, oh, this just doesn't. do it for me. I think

I just didn't want to be drunk. It just wasn't fun anymore. It's very hard to explain because there were times when I would try to actively talk myself out of, you know, drinking. That didn't work very well. That would last for a few months or something. But actually just having the appeal gone, not sure. I can't account for that rationally. And how is your life different post that moment?

It's much better, man. I mean, no hangovers, first of all. And it was just a crutch, you know. And it's nice to walk on your own feet after you've been using a crutch for a while. So I just feel healthier and happier. Has anything kind of arisen that was kind of dormant? That I like to drink water.

I really like water now. What is it about water? Oh, my, water's so great, man. You're thirsty, you drink water. You don't feel good, you drink water, you feel better, man. That's like the rule in my house now is like, something's wrong, drink some water. Do you have a special glass? You put the water in?

Look, I'm going to drink some water now. Do you do things? Cheers, cheer, yeah, exactly. Well, the water from your own tap, right? That is amazing. You're traveling and it's like, ah, something's off. That's when you realize that water does indeed have a taste. Exactly.

Yeah. Can you think of what your, if I came to your house and said, can out some water, what's your water taste? No, I think that's like trying to hear your own accent. Yeah. I would say, I've tried that, you know, you know. Or you look in the mirror and you imagine, what do I look like to other people? But you can't quite do it, you know. I've wanted, I fantasized about being a Brit and hearing my American accent or whatever.

I don't know. Don't wait to tell you about it? No, no, please do not. Please do not. How do you talk about mirrors when you look in the mirror now? What do you see? I try not to, you know. I'm 51, so I kind of see an old man.

But I'm also happy that I am where I am at 51. So I've got my gray hairs and my scars. and it's all right. It's who I am. But, yeah, you know, sometimes the middle-aged male thing, you look, and you think, man, when I was 18, blah, blah, blah. But then I think about where I was when I was 18, and I was a puppy dog chasing my tail.

Didn't know where I was going. So as long as I stay active, swim, drink my water and all that stuff, pretty good. I think you'd look very well. You look healthy. Hey, thank you. You mentioned scars. Any notable ones?

What's the bossy favorite one? I guess my chicken pock scar on my nose. And then a couple years ago, I fell right on my head skateboarding, and I got a gash on my eyebrow. And I had a dumb idea that I would cover it up with makeup. So I went to the makeup store, and they did it all up. and my wife's like, what is that? Just put a bandage on it.

I was like, no, I'll cover it. She's like, it looks worse now, you know. But skateboarders, we like scars anyway. So badge of honor. Take me through skateboarding. A lot of sports, people have a time with it. And then they kind of, you know, once they're past a kind of a certain point in their physical prowess moment, they tend to give up these sports. I'm not saying that's good or bad.

or whatever it is just what it is. Obviously, you still skateboard now? Yes, I'm 51. We call it Down for Life. I'm down for life. That's wonderful. Yeah, I started when I was 13, and it was something that I could do. I mean, first of all, I'll give you a portrait of Kansas.

So there are cities, but mostly it's big fields, and it is prairies. So the prairies were formed there when the native people burned the trees. trees so the buffalo grass would grow. So it's just open expanse. So there's nothing to do. So you're a teenager and you're bored out of your mind, right? So somehow a few of us decided we would start riding skateboards and build ramps. And it became my passion and something that was mine. It wasn't school. It wasn't from my parents. You know, I did try playing sports like football and it was just a jock coach thing and in football

and these other sports when you mess up you get yelled at and skateboarding if you fall down and get hurt everybody cheers yeah you got hurt you fell down so there's something about the activity that appealed to my soul and

you know I had a rule for a while when I turned 30 or 40 if I had to go to the emergency room more than three times a year I would hang it up But it's only been maximum one or two times a year. So still doing it and still hanging out with the 20-year-olds and having fun. Down for life.

I love that down for life. I really like that. What do the 20-year-olds think of you? As in what do you reckon? Well, sometimes they come up and they say, how old are you? And I'm like, man, don't even. It's two kind of reactions. One is let's skate.

Like no reaction. They recognize other skateboarders. And then the other reaction is like, wow, I hope when I'm your age, I'm still doing this. I usually push back against that. But that's just me teasing them. I mean, if I were 20 and some guy with gray hair and scars came up and was skating, I'd be interested to. What's that guy's story?

Shouldn't you be playing golf? Like, what's your problem? Why are you out here with us? So, but we're good family, you know? The skateboarders are kind of outcast, so we create our own micro community. It's pretty good. That's wonderful.

Can you describe what skateboarding, when it is going well, and when you're in some kind of groove, I guess, what it feels like? You should read my work. Have you read a book about skateboarding? It was just an article so far. But it was about skateboarding and anarchism,

and it was basically, I mean, I mean, it is the feeling of flow, of being in a flow state. Also, the feeling of using concrete, which usually has been poured for some other purpose in a city. So it's a feeling of being on the margins of a city usually, and sometimes risking arrest

because people like to kick you out of spots. And when you're skateboarding with other people, it's a feeling of pushing each other. So one person will try a trick, and then another person tries one a little harder, and then another person tries one a little harder. And when you fall and get hurt, that's, like, part of it. You're not failing because you're falling.

It means you're just trying something that you can't quite do. yet. So for me it's a lot of camaraderie when I'm with my friends. And when I'm alone, it's just total freedom, like pushing down the street. It's like swimming. It's somehow very, very, very, very primal for me. So. Do you remember your first go? Oh, yeah, wiped out, man. My cousin had a skateboard and he was older than me. Let me try it and then whack. My whole front was gone. Oh, You know, road rash, man. Like, let's do some more. Let's do it again.

Let's see how this is. But it didn't put you off? No, no. I never did mine getting hurt. Still don't, which... Maybe I'm a little off, but... See, that's why I never liked playing football, like American football, because you're hurting the other person.

Yeah. I'm like, no, I'll hurt myself. That's fine, but I don't want to hurt somebody else. Yeah. Those skateboarders, we're, you know, we're massacists, not sadists, I guess. Is it just in the arena of skateboarding that you're okay with hurting yourself? Or just generally, are you kind of guy that flings themselves around? I guess I'm a guy that flings himself around a little bit, you know,

but I try to keep it within the realm of not burdening my family too much, you know. I've been dying to get a motorcycle, but, you know, not. a lot of good idea. Rock climbing. I love rock climbing. But it's calculated risk. How about that? And actually, I just, I'm here in Dublin and two days ago, I was getting ready to go out for my skate session and I thought, I don't want to get hurt. And here comes to John Deere. So I thought, okay, I don't want to get hurt right before my trip to Dublin. So I was like, I'll just hang out on the porch. And I opened my Instagram and my best friend has broken as tibia. I was like, okay.

All right, all right. It was the right move, made the right move. You mentioned it ties in with anarchy. Yeah. Can you tell me more about that anarchy in your life generally and how you kind of live and practice it? Yeah. Or not.

So the first thing I would say is that, that when I think about anarchy, I don't think of rebellion. I think of attack on private property. So for me, anarchy starts with a rejection of the nation state, a rejection of the state, but then a rejection of private property. Property is theft. So for me, skateboarding has an obvious connection. First of all, the way that skateboarders use private property

and the way they disrespect private property and then the DIY movement of taking urban trash and turning it into art. In that sense, I think, rejecting property and then the positive side of it would be building community. So the communal positive aspect of anarchism is mutual aid, supporting each other, not relying on the government, not relying on the state,

doing it yourself. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah, and so you must have come up against people doing this. You know, some officials push back. Yeah, constantly. I mean, I've been arrested a bunch of times for skateboarding. I still have at home my first ticket ever getting arrested for skateboarding at 16.

Luckily, my parents just laughed, you know. Like, this is hilarious, right? You got locked up for riding a skateboard. So that's kind of constant. Although between 1986 and 2025, you also have the mainstream movement of skateboarding. So sometimes when I'm skateboarding and somebody smiles at me, I'm like, you know, F you're supposed to hate me.

So it's kind of funny. How do you keep the spirit alive away from skateboarding? Oh, I have a lot of stuff going on, mostly just family, my two daughters and my wife, in the native community that I'm part of, and the music community that I'm part of, my drummer. I'm part of a native drumming and singing group. We do ceremony together. I get to travel the world for conferences, so I'm here for a conference at University of College Dublin on phenomenology. and we're sitting here in this beautiful botanical garden

and then getting to meet you. That was pretty wild. But yeah, I just went and laid down. I got off the airplane and laid down on the ground. Said, all right. What are you like on a plane? Ah, man, it's terrible. Just fidgety, man.

Just fidgety. Stressing about who's going to sit next to me, like looking at every person. Like, oh, am I going to sit in that? next to them. Oh, you know, what are they going to think of me and the elbowing each other? It was, it was all right. It was all right.

Who did you get to see next to you in the end? Just a kid. He was sweet. I think he had different norms about the elbow room, but whatever, you know, it's all right. I let him have it. He was a kid. Take it. He didn't give him a little shot back.

Take it. No, I did a little bit. And then he just looked down like he was so disgusted. Like he'd never see. seen his own elbow. Like, what is that? I was like, okay, wow. So, what is that? What is, what is phenomenology? Oh gosh. I wish, I wish I knew. It's a terrible word for philosophy done from the first person perspective. So, yeah, that word should be deleted from everyone's vocabulary. But it's philosophy done, subjective.

So, you know, instead of trying to take this big impersonal universal perspective, it's usually about the social world that we inhabit and the experiences we have in the social world. So it allows people to do things like autobiographical philosophy that draws on who they are, but, you know, within their body or within a social world. You mentioned you take part in native rituals. practice slash singing Yeah

Can you tell me what it means to you and what it is? Yeah, sure I mean I grew up in Kansas right next to the border with Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma

and had gone to powwows when I was young so powwows are social celebrations and then a few years ago I decided I wanted to get back into the community a little bit and I met folks from the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania and they took

me in and we started singing and drumming and then do a lot of ceremony and it's a really great community of people that's willing to, you know, share their ways and teach and so I'm an avid learner. Feel blessed to be part of that community too. What have you What have you learned? I mean, one thing about drumming, I'll just say, is like if I'm sitting at a drum kit and drumming or if I'm drumming with some jazz musicians,

the music I do, not very many people dance. Yeah. So you're kind of isolated. Everybody's staring at you. They clap when it's at the end, you know. It's been a nice experience. But at a powwow or a native gathering, the drumming is always in service of the dance.

So you understand that the pulse is for movement. And it's a kind of physical and spiritual connection that I never understood before. And then the drum represents the heartbeat of the earth, which is your mother. So, you know, it goes from very simple things like, I want to pound a stick on a drum and then suddenly, you know, you're thinking about the whole world and the whole cosmos,

and that's okay, that's part of it. Yeah, it's heavy. Sounds magical. How many people are we talking about? I mean, a minimum of two or three, but it could be five, it could be ten. If it gets really big, people will crowd into the drum and play it. But when you approach the kind of the native leaders, what do you say? I mean, you know, say, you know, I want to get involved, I want to join in it.

Is that a complicated business? Do you know what I mean? Is there any pushback there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, as a non-native person, a person of Irish descent, Spanish descent, I started slowly and with humility observing. And after going to powwows and observing, the particular group that I'm part of had a river trip. So for the Lenape, the Delaware River is sacred. And one of the chiefs said, do you want to come on the river trip?

I said, I'd love to. So we started at the headwaters of the Delaware River, so-called Delaware River, Lenape Sipu, in Hancock, New York. And over the course of a month with a bunch of different people and a bunch of different stops, we floated the entire river all the way out to, did Atlantic Ocean. And by the time the journey was over, we were all friends. And then my friend Mark asked if I wanted to drum.

And that's how it started. And went from there. Yeah. Amazing. And these relationships, do you think you'll have for life now? Is this a kind of... Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're family now. Here's our friend. A lawnmower friend. A lawnmower friend does won't go away.

He'll edit that out in post. Exactly. That would be for Mike to sort out. Good luck with that one, Mike. Fucking hell. He's coming towards us. He's just seeing the same bit over and over again. Yeah, we come back again.

Have a look at it. Oh, he turned it off. Fantastic. Wow. He's going to fire back up. Hold on. Yeah, he's definitely going to fire back up. So what you're writing about in your mornings,

have your relationship with these, this group informed that writing? Yes, a lot of what I've learned about. Colonialism in the U.S. has come from the native people and the native communities I've been in. A lot of the other stuff that I am thinking about with colonialism comes from sort of my training. There's multiple sources.

That stuff academically was very important to me, but it's different to really understand from a first-person perspective to listen to somebody describe how colonialism has affected their family. And then my ancestors on my Irish side ended up getting land in Kansas because my second great-grandfather fought for the union

and the land in Kansas was native land. Of course, all of Turtle Island, North America, was native land, but the land that he was given or gifted was out in what was called permanent Indian territory. So there's definitely a connection there in terms of my white ancestors taking land. So I've been very interested in that, to understand that process and I don't know trying to um do right now you know how do I how do I

do right now so what do you think you can do I mean is anything you would like to do that you're not doing about it um there's direct land back movement politics um which is just the idea of giving land back it's a little more complicated than that usually but But that's the idea, you know, that involves, you know, private donations. There's also, whoa, look at that bird. Sorry, this bird that I've never seen in my life just hopped over. What do you think, bird? Oh, you haven't not seen a magpie?

That's a magpie? Mm. Wow. There's quite a few of them floating around. And we're supercicious about them. What's the deal with the magpie? No. It's a really, it's a funny one.

So it's all about how many you see? Three. What am I in trouble? No? No? So it's one for sorrow. And then you have to say something. You have to salute them up because a good day, miss my house and wife.

If you see one. This is what people genuinely, people honestly do this. Two for joy. So if you see two, you don't have to do anything. It's good news. Three, this is where it gets funny. So there's a rind. It goes one for sorrow, two for joy.

Three for a girl. for a boy. I think it's related to maybe if you, you know, if you're about to have a child or something. Oh, okay. But maybe just take it as just a girl. All right. So, you know, some, so you know, so there's some kind of, so let's just say there's a, you know, maybe there's, maybe a guy. So cool. Thank you. Maybe a girl will pop up today of note. Okay. All right. I don't know. I better put my ring back on. I don't wear a ring. I do have my wife's name tattooed on me. Oh, that's cool. So, um, um, Tell me about your wife. What's it like being with her?

Oh, she's great. What do you like about it the most? Top three favorite things about your wife. Top three favorite things. Let's see. She's just got relentless energy. She's always pushing, moving forward, and she's way smarter than me. She's got a wicked sense of humor and I love listening to her talk when she's watching, we call it soccer, about football. So she's a huge football fan.

You were saying soccer as in our football, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's a support. Who does she support? Well, she really likes women's soccer, so she has a women's soccer team in the United States. But over here, let's see, what's her team? What's wrong with me?

Can't remember her team? It's okay. It'll come up in a second. Do you remember your first moment of, of connection with her. You know, I'm not big on first moments. I feel like there are things that we write down when we're kind of making up our past,

at least for me. Maybe I just have a shitty memory. So my first moments of seeing her was we were both in graduate school and we were labor union organizers and just seeing her in that role as a political leader, activist as a speaker.

Yeah, that was, that was it. Was it fairly smooth from there? I mean, were there any... No, no, no. We were both dating other people. Okay. It was not smooth at all. How did that all work out? Who jumped first?

50-50. I think we both jumped at the exact same time. Although one funny thing is that the boyfriend she was dating was also a musician from Kansas. And so her father was like, what is going on? She dumped one musician from Kansas for another one. So, yeah, it was, we're very different. My wife and I are different. We come from different cultures. She's from the east coast of the U.S.

I'm from the Midwest. And it works out because if we were both kind of revved up, that might be difficult if we were both too laid back. So I think it works out really, really well. So you've got to go to a conference? Yeah, I'm going to a conference. What does a conference look like, you know, a philosophy conference? Oh, boring.

So boring. So boring. So boring. How can he spice it up? I mean, they haven't got you in spice it up. No, I'll put my suit and tie on. I'm going to lay low and then maybe at night people will come out of their shells. Who knows? Who knows?

I'm imagining, because this is the British society for phenomenology, I imagine it's going to be pretty stuffy. But we'll see. Open mind. What's the best possible outcome of this trip for you? I mean, I would love to connect with some scholars. That would be good. I want to get some good gifts for my wifey and for the girls.

They've asked about that. So I'm on a mission. And then I'm also sort of, you know, doing that American, Irish thing of trying to connect to the ancestors. Are you passing everyone on the street? Yeah, yeah, right. Is it you? Is it you?

Exactly. Grandpa, is that you? Yeah. Do we know anything about your Irish ancestors? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fourth great grandfather is from Donny Gall. But I'm going to go over there to Donny Gall City for four days or something like that. Oh, fantastic.

What's it been like to be a father for you? Being a dad's great. It rocked my world. You know, it's like immediately, instead of being responsible just for myself, I was responsible for this human entity that seemed so fragile at the time. And then also a sense of like, oh my gosh, I'm a father. Am I going to be like my father? So that was a big one.

What is it right now? Well, my daughters are 20 and 17, so now it is watching them become adults, and they're so I don't know, just trying now, I guess, to wiggle my way in there. Like, hey, remember me, dad? Like, you want to go do this? No. No. So it's, yeah, the tide has turned a little bit.

I'm excited about who they are and what they're doing and excited that they still seem to kind of like me. So, you know. You seem like you'd be a cool dad. You do have kind of cool dad energy. Yeah, I guess so. I hate the label, but whatever. I was at one time I was saying something to somebody about how I didn't like him. hipsters. And the person was like, well, are you a hipster? And I'm like, no. And they said, well,

does a hipster admit they're a hipster? And I'm like, no. I was like, oh, damn. That's brilliant. You mentioned when you were talking about being a dad, he said, wondering if you would be the same as your dad. Can you just elaborate there a bit? Oh, my dad was never happy with himself. And he kind of took it out on other people. So I just want to be a kind, gentle dad. I never wanted my kids to be afraid of me. Never.

So you were afraid of your that? Oh, yeah. The whole way through? Oh, yeah. It was terrifying. No. What impact did I have? I mean, it helped me because,

a critic of toxic masculinity and be a feminist, but I had to work through wanting his approval. Yeah. And he certainly was an all-fashioned, tough man, you know. I just think I learned to be a different kind of male, different kind of man. And ultimately, that's really good. But, yeah, it was kind of rough being a kid around him. Yeah. And he never softened. no I mean he changed but in some ways

he got we're weirder as he got old he's no longer with us yeah he passed in

2017 yeah yeah what did that event mean to um yeah that's a rough one

um it meant my mom was alone so that's been kind of how I've been processing things how to take care of my mom

And I think with my dad being with the ancestors now, it allows me to say, okay, here's the positive things I want to take from who he was, you know, because he was a musician, an artist, an intellectual, you know, a record collector, an antique dealer. A lot of really interesting things. So I think it's allowed me to say, okay, these are the qualities I want to remember and highlight. and be at peace with everything else. Do you ever anything shifted in you after he died? For sure. Yeah, a lot. Huge shift.

Can you tell me about it? It's a sense of not needing to live up to his standards or not needing to feel like I'm in his shadow or that I need as approval, I guess. Did you ever get his approval? No. To what extent did he stop, to what point did he keep striving for it? It must have been a time you just gave up.

I think I sort of, well, here's a moment for you. So when I defended my PhD, where all these big wig professors sit and judge me, and I for some reason invited my father to come as well. So I remember really clearly sitting in the room and having on the one side my actual father and on the other side the director of my thesis and looking at both of them and thinking, oh my gosh, which one's the father? And realizing, you know, if I want to finish my program and get my doctoral degree in philosophy, this is the guy over here that I need to deal with.

My thesis advisor, yeah, that was a very, very strange moment for me. It's very hard to describe. It's very hard to describe. But what I'm saying is that, you know, in a way, like, even as I moved on in life, there were other people that were these male authority figures that kept kind of having similar roles to my father. bother until I realize, oh, I don't have to have that at all. No more big, tough male, this is how it is.

Be my own kind of male. How much do you charge for these therapy sessions? Thousands. You mentioned you're a feminist. Yeah. Is that a kind of active position? I mean, has that been like, my father's been like this, I'm going to be like this. Or have you just kind of fallen into it?

No, it's an active political position that I've taken since I was 16 and had to have blow out arguments with my father about. Fantastic. I was a debater when I was in high school and then in college. I went to college on a debate scholarship. And so we'd do research. So, again, the town where I grew up was very small. So I was in this little town library.

I go to the librarian and I say, I want to research sexism. And she's like, oh, okay, I understand, I understand. You know, come with me and she was all quiet and hush, hush. She brings me over to the shelf. And the books are all on sex education? What the hell? No, no, sexism, discrimination.

On the basis of sex, I was so embarrassed. So I found some books on feminism and checked him out and went home, put him in my room. And I went out and did something. I came back and my father had gone into my room, looked at the books that I checked out, and, you know, had one of his little rage attacks. And I'm like, F you, man. What do you, what, these are my books that are me. So, yeah, that gives you a sense of what I mean when I say.

I took an active position. My father was trained as a Baptist preacher, man. Like, either the pastor's preaching and you just listen, or you fight fire with fire. And you take a position. This is my position. Wow. So that's... Quite brave of you.

Yeah. Didn't feel brave, but thank you. I'll take the compliment. How are we doing on our 15 minutes, Tom? You promised 15 fucking minutes at the beginning. Bro, I haven't even looked at my phone. It's been about 20, I record. Yeah, right, right.

Lunch time. Okay. Last few questions for you. You say you say that. I lied at the start, didn't I? Because if I approached you and said, you know, can we talk for an hour? You'd be like 100% no. You're going to laugh me away.

You laugh me off? Okay, what a good, what a good final questions for you. Early doors, I used to get people to ask, ask themselves a question. You know, if you have one, you're welcome to go for it. Why did I agree to them? The main question, like, what did I get myself in to? I got you and you're tired. Wow.

Yeah, see, see, see, you got me one. Yeah. I got you and you're tired. I mean, you know, a philosopher sitting on a bench, you never know. I mean, I don't like that word philosopher. either. What would you rather? I don't know. It's like I don't want to say professor either. That's a terrible. It's arrogant, right? Like teacher, writer. I like writer. I like writer. Because writer is very general. Lots of people write. You know, it doesn't require having an institutional

backing. I guess that's part of it, right? Is we, at least the world I'm in in terms of my career, people seek legitimacy through an institution. It's like, no, you're, you're, you're a human being. You know, hey, what's up? You know, I'm so-and-so. You know what you should do? You get a, for your, I'm guessing you'll get a land yard type thing for the conference. You know, maybe you have your name and the brackets and nobody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Just like, just like you. But then people think, well, who's this? Now that they say, well, then they're like, oh, who is this guy, I think he is. So. Can't win. You can't win. You can't win, no. Maybe the trick is, there's no land yard at all. Yeah, exactly. I forgot it at home.

By the way, my wife's club is Tottenham Hot-Squins. There we go. It came. She would be so... It came. Well done for memory. No, she'll be so... Fantastic.

She can never listen to this. Don't worry she won't. Fantastic. Let's do this. If you were to close your eyes now and think back to a scene from your past that you can think of, you can describe in the greatest detail. Can you describe what comes to you? When I close my eyes right now, I think about Kansas, and I think about the farmhouse where I grew up in a buffalo field, where you have this tall grass.

And the grasses are as tall as a person. So I remember being a kid walking out and being dwarfed by these grasses. And I also remember grabbing the grasses and ripping them open and chewing on them. and I would later learn that that's what the buffalo did. The buffalo would chew on the grass, and it was that super, super sweet, almost like sugar taste. And then the other thing about the field is that during the summer, every couple weeks there'd be a different set of flowers that would bloom.

It might be one week, the gay feather, and it'd be purple. Then the next week it'd be the paintbrush and it'd be red. And so every week, especially June, my birthday month, the field would just transform itself. And so it was this synesthesia. You know, it wasn't just what everything looked like. It's what it tasted like and felt and smelled like. And those memories are so strong that memory of being out in those fields. So even though I'm in Dublin in the middle of a botanical garden, thousand miles away,

that's what I think of, I think of being back in Kansas. Whoa. Beautiful. That was weird to. Now you open your eyes. You're back in it. You're back in Dublin. Wow.

I can't believe I'm in Dublin. I can't believe I'm in Dublin. There's one last question. Oh, don't worry. It's a good one. Drum roll. Oh yeah, if you're a drummer. What are you going to do next?

massive I'm gonna smoke a cigarette and walk to my Airbnb but that's the simple answer I'm I'm just kind of out of my mind being in Dublin I've been thinking about this trip for four years oh wow I've been trying to get over here you know and my grandma and grandpa had come and I have Irish ancestry and just like waves and waves and of stuff getting me. So I don't know, being in Dublin is really, really starting to kind of sink in a little bit. I had horrible anxiety before I was coming, just pacing, they just didn't want to go, what's going to happen, like, just way worse travel anxiety than I usually have. So I think somehow talking about myself,

has calmed me a little bit because I've talked about who I am and why I'm here. I think the next thing is to embrace Dublin, embrace being in Dublin. And get excited. Just finally just be really excited to be here. Meet some cool new people, hopefully. And that's it. And it's been lovely to talk to you. Yeah, it's been great talking with you.

It's completely unexpected. I thought I was just going to be laying on the grass sleeping or something, man. But this was epic. I don't know. I've been talking once again through the lifetimes I've spent, aimless wandering. I'm in stand.