Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 96: You and I Are So Different

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'Where I'm Suppoed To Be' by Lail Arad & JF RobitailleStream it here : https://ffm.to/whereimsupposedtobeListen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, so it to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you want to know something funny? Go on.

This is actually the first time that I've had two people on a bench with me. And not just one. Okay. But you know, all walls are supposed to be broken. Just got to go with the flow. Just got to go with it. Should I tell you how this works? Yes, go.

There's a start question and an end question. Okay. And then whatever happens in the middle, happens in the middle. That sounds like life. Born, something. Die. Exactly. It's so true.

So yeah, there's a start question, you live and you die. What do you want the last question to be before you die? I know what I don't want it to be. Don't ask me, you know, what did you achieve in your life? Because I want to go out on a high note. Well, that's because you don't want to be asked. What do you want to be asked? What would like to be asked? Oh God. See, if I had time to answer it, it would be like, how the hell do we make the world work? That would be the question, right? That's because you want to be asked as your final question before you die. I'd like to answer it. But how the hell do you make the world work?

Maybe that would keep you alive. And then you actually wouldn't die. Yeah. Where do you want to die of interest? Any place? I'm not planning to die. I'm not hoping you do, but do you have a place where you'd like that to happen? I mean, I have always lived around here.

I was ill 18 months ago. I very nearly died. And I was in the Freeman, and the people in the Freeman were lovely. So, you know, that seems like quite a good place. The Freeman Hospital. Fantastic. I see you almost got that last question. You always got the chance to be...

And yeah. It was wonderful. It was great. It was amazing. I got shingles and then I had pain in my gut. And then one day I just collapsed and my brother and Gillian got me into hospital. They were doing tests on me and stuff. And then I'm lying in the bed in the hospital.

My son is sitting at my feet. And I said, I feel a bit strange. Could you get someone? So the last thing I saw was him walking down. And the next thing I know, there's like, there's sirens going. There's like 10 people around me. I'm looking up at the ceiling, I think, and they're putting a drip into me. And I hear somebody say, Major Bleed.

Not the words you want to hear. Not the words you want to hear. Unless your name is Major Bleeds, I'm going to say. There's got to be one out of there somewhere. I just started bleeding into my gut. Oh, cranky. Fortunately, they were going to do a scan on me that evening, and they had a bunch of radiologists and people in the hospital.

And so the next thing I know my bed is racing down the corridor, you know that thing, where you see the tiles going whiz, whiz, whiz, I'm in the lift, down intervention radiology. So they got me in there. And then there was like a business meeting. They were just so business-like and organized. Okay, have we got that? Okay, as John, is you over there?

They said, they sounded so together. And they said, and then they come around to me and they say, well, we'd like to put you to sleep if that would be all right. Do I have a choice? Next thing I know is sort of it's 11 o'clock the following morning. And what they'd done was they had stuck a tube up inside an artery into the gut which was bleeding. They gave me seven units of blood, which that's a whole person's worth of blood. And they put a wire up inside the inside. the artery and they sort of push it out at the end of a tube and when it comes out it sort

tangles itself into a knot and then they put another one and they join the two together and it clot it causes a clot so that that and then instead of bleeding to death job job done it was amazing and that people react to things in different ways my way of reacting to this was I was just really inquisitive I kept asking them questions as we're racing down the corridor and it was just it was fascinating Is that your way of coping, of course, I guess? Well, I think I'm just interested in stuff. You know?

Even as you're dying? Well, yeah. So it's a prevalent question, what you would be asked for the last question. And people in the hospital kept saying to me, well, so what's your job? You know, were you a medic? No, I'm just inquisitive. So you're about to die, but now you're alive. Yeah.

And you came out of the hospital with a new lease of life? A new lease of life? Yeah. I'm, I mean, I always thought life was wonderful, but it is, life is, life is, look at this. The sunshine, look at the green leaves and the, the trees, the trees don't know, just how bad things. They're quite, you're living in ignorance, well done. So true, so true. May I ask, this is, as we were savage, the first time I've spoken to two people on a bench.

Can you describe who this person? is to you. This is Gillian, she's my partner. My partners, aren't we? Julian, is it in doubt? Partnership is very complicated, isn't it? It is complicated. It involves sometimes having difficult conversations and usually, always, we always feel better afterwards, don't we? But they're difficult. What kind of difficult conversations are you having? Oh God, what do we talk about? Difficult, aren't they? We think very differently. We do, that's right. Yeah. Gillian's a poet. If I may like to say that much. You can say whatever you want,

Jillian. She's a proper poet, which I'm not. I'm, yeah. You famously hate poetry? Not at all. No, no, no, no, no, but I am ignorant. Gillian, have you written, have you written a poem about this stranger? Several. Yes, several. Several. Do they flow out easy? Do they come easy? Well, there's one that introduces the last book that started life as a haiku and describes how Tom took the old garden gate off its hinges and this was about three more years ago intending to repair it and he still hangs standing against the house wall in the garden. But the intention is there, you know, can you explain yourself with this garden gate in the hinges? I have a lot of things to do. All I needed was the hinges basically.

The hinges and the and the knob that you get in through the door through the gate with. and about 10 pieces of nice wood treatment. So you're waiting to get this particular? Well, at the moment I'm doing AI, so, you know. So I'm too occupied with AI to get around to the gate. What would inspire you to do the gate? What do you think would have to happen? This podcast.

Ask me if I'm going to do it. That's the last question. When are you going to get that gate done? Did you do the gait? You can't die without that. No. So, so far what I know about your partnership is, Gillian has written some poetry about you,

you have difficult conversations. All the couples I know have several conversations, by the way. What percentage of your conversations are difficult? Oh. It happens every week or 10 days or something we might have, yeah. It's fairly frequent. Okay. A fairly frequent, okay.

What do you think kicks it off, may I ask? What do we have conversations about? You live together. Gillian, some of the time we do. We've got our own houses. Mine's down near Durham. Okay. Yeah.

Gillian is, she would describe herself as not being a Christian, but of being close to the Christian tradition. Would that be okay? And she has an interest in spirituality. I'm an absolute hardcore atheist, really. I'm not a hardcore atheist, that is, I'm not a believer. That's not a believer.

That's not my faith. It's not my faith of that. There is no God. I just, that's my opinion. But it's a fairly strong opinion. You're backing it. I'm backing it. So is this a point of, so this is a genuine point of contention between you both? So a point of contention we've had, I say to her, but there are some things that we absolutely know. And she says, well, no. We both studied philosophy. Okay. Right. Not together. Yes, but separately.

And I say, you know, for goodness sake, two and two is four. And then I don't know what you say then because I don't understand it. But it doesn't, it results in me thinking she doesn't agree with me that two and two is four. Or she doesn't agree. You see, now we're starting. Here we go. Here we go. I don't even need to be it.

I'll give Gillian the other microphone. I'll just have a little walk. Yeah, right. And I'll come back in an hour. I'll see what's happening. I honestly think sometimes we have conversations and I think this is just a film script. This is the moment. You've wished it into existence.

Okay, I mean, I'm now intrigued how long you've been of what you call a partnership. This is our 14th year. We started at Christmas, so we're Christmas. 2013? Yeah, 2013. On Christmas Day itself? No, the 27th. Oh.

Why do women always no dates? Yeah. But I went to see her and we played Scrabble, didn't we? That was it. That was, that was, that closed the deal. Scrabble for the win. Did you finish the game? Yeah.

Oh yes. More than one we had, didn't we? Oh, fantastic. So you finished the game and did you do a kind of formal handhake to the player partnership? No, he did, he made potato cheese for supper. at about 1 o'clock in the morning in my house because I entertained a lot

over Christmas, I had no food left on the time of the 7th. I see. Except potato and cheese. So you had potato and cheese at 1 o'clock in the morning after two games of scrabble.

And we burned all Gillian's Gillian's firewood, haven't we? Yes. So there you go. And 14 years later and by my calculations, if you're having a difficult conversation every week,

We've had hundreds and hundreds. That's getting towards a thousand difficult conversations. We've resolved a lot of things, haven't we? We have sorted out a lot of difficulties, definitely. It's also been interesting for me because I've always taken a fairly crisp approach to people who didn't agree with me, and I've had to learn to sort of... What is it about the way Gillian has disagreed with you that's meant that it's worked, where before it hadn't.

She's persisted. The thing is, I'm happy to get into a fight if I win. But if you're getting to a fight and it just goes nowhere, well, it gets a bit tedious. Yeah. Yeah. When these different conversations happen, and it sounds like you need some kind of resolution,

is this correct? Yeah, because I'm right, Tom. You know, you know, come on! You don't understand. I'm right. I'm right. You're not getting it. Like, you know, what's the matter with you?

But what has to happen for you to be content? Does Gillian need to say, you are, I agree with you, are correct? Does she lose? I haven't happened ever yet. Does that ever happen? We tacitly agree to differ. We get to a point where, whatever it is that we're talking about, we kind of resolved it. It has got a lot, a lot easier.

I mean, early on when we got together, that we had a conversation about, it wasn't about feminism, but it was about, It was about feminism. It was about that. How can I say this? The feminists are right. Women are, you know, have not been treated properly. We know that, right. Okay, in lots of ways. Yeah.

So. Is there a butt coming? There is. Well, no, not a butt. No, I mean, feminism, you can use it as a way to kind of make everybody else wrong. As well as it being, you know, a genuine, authentic cause that should be taken forward. you can use it as a as a weapon against people you know so I said something to Jillian about this I said I think the way I put it was I said being a feminist can be a victim position and being a victim is a very powerful position because then you know

the other person feels bad because they're victimizing you sure some people and so and then Gillian just wouldn't agree with it so this is this is one night next day we were going to see a friend of hers in Newcastle and I don't know if we actually had this was this was early early on we went you said you said to me actually you were right about that you know you can use feminism that way and I thought if you don't recall it's true yeah you did and I thought I thought somebody that can some this is the thing that hooked me into being around with her somebody that can be very stuck in a position and then come to see that there's an alternative there's an alternative way of looking at it and acknowledge it, I thought that was fantastic.

You need that in some way. Even though, according to Leah, this curtain is some kind of fancy of yours. We're going to be a bit of discussion about this later. Yeah, okay, so there you go. So 14 years, I mean, it's, you know, I'm not saying you're, you know, not young, but you are not young, I suppose. Maybe that's right I'm saying. But I mean, this is a partnership later on in life.

It is, yeah. Are we, that's fair to say? Yeah. I mean, what does it mean to strike up a partnership with this kind of point in life? I'd be interested here what you have to say about that. Gillian, what do you say, what do you think? It's possibly a more open-ended exploration than it might have been earlier in life. Because what can happen now?

It's changed things a lot for you, hasn't it, actually? I think in the past you would have been pretty sort of... Oh gosh, I don't know. You've become very willing to make space for me to be me. Something like that. Not at the expense of my feminism. No, no. How much space do you need to be you these days?

me. I'm not very tolerant of views which are stupid. But you say, but Gillian's allowed you to be more intolerant. More intolerant. One area of, one area of massive intolerance that I have, and I still have in a sense, but I've modified the way I do it. I do not know what this word God means. And I've, there are Jehovah's Witnesses all around the place. And I just don't understand how they think. That's even that you're the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Baptists more. I've said to them, the view that you have about God, where God says, don't do this, somebody does it. Not only do they get punished, but all their descendants do forever.

That is not, that's not a God. That's not on. It's not exactly. And I mean, it's like, so I'm not that tolerant of that point of view. Yeah. And I have long conversations with people about that sort of thing saying, what the hell are you talking about? And you have conversations with Jehovah's Witness themselves sometimes. How does that go?

Jehovah's Witnesses are really nice. I don't know if you talk to them, they're lovely. And, you know, so I don't... I don't know. Definitely not. No, definitely not. But the Baptists are a bit hardcore, so I don't shout at them. But I do say, you know, what the hell are you talking about?

Yeah, anyway. You ready for the first question? Yes, go. The first question I asked people is what's your favourite day of the week? But you can't confer. Maybe you have to get, what do you think each other's answer will be?

This is a fun game. Okay. It's like a game show. What do you think each other is going to be? I think you're going to say Friday. Okay. And Gillian thinks... I can't think of a specific.

one. Let me go for Thursday. Right. Are we, how far, are we, are we accurate? Any accuracy there? I don't know, I have a favourite day. What would that mean? Are you Friday?

No, my favourite is Saturday. Oh, there we go. You're a day away. It really is my favourite in terms of what you do. And I was born on it. Oh, wonderful. Okay. Do you know anything else about your birth?

Quite a lot. Quite a lot. Okay, can you say anything about your day of birth? I was born about 20 past 1 in the morning. 20 past 1 in the morning. It was a private nursing home post-war. I was born in 49 and they took me away from my mother, hop-p us one in the morning and kept me until the morning morning.

And she said, I saw you being brought in coming into the door, your little fist is going like mad. And so I was angry. Oh, you're really pissed. Could you be denied mother for it or denied something else? Yes, I think so. I mean, it must have been that. Yeah. That is nuts, isn't it?

Yes. So make what you will of it. Yes. I'd be trying to make something over this year. Yeah. Did you ever ask mother about it? Oh, yes. We talked a lot.

I mean, you know, I come more and more to think of the war as responsible. But the difficulties in my dysfunctional family and both my parents and my mother's parents, had a difficult war. My mother's brother was a navigator in an RAF, Lancaster, and he was killed. The whole crew was killed, so that was quite a hard war, I think. And I was the first child. So I got to carry rather a lot, I think. Like, you know, I'm not the only person in our generation, of course. But, yeah. But that shaped the opening stages of your life. And the rest of it. And the rest of it. Yeah, that's a good point, actually. If it shapes the start, it shapes the whole thing, doesn't it, really?

Yes, yes. Just, we're just recovering from different people's traumas, really, aren't we? Yes. That's what life is. Well. But anyway, that's why Saturday is your favourite day. What day were you born? No idea. No, I can tell you what day of the year it was.

It was the 31st of December. And my mum, apparently there were journalists. surround who are quite excited because I might be the last baby of the year but I wasn't. So yeah I kept the first I came. Is that what journalists hang around in hospitals for the last baby of the year? They're full of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's what journalists do. And it's it's a drag being born on the 31st of December. It's too close to Christmas and you know, you don't get your presents. But also people are guaranteed to be celebrating on your date of birth.

That's true. So that's fun. When do you see the fireworks out of the window, you think it's for yourself? Oh, they're celebrating me a That's right, yeah. So you don't have a favourite day of the week? I don't. And I were thinking maybe you should ask which is my favourite months. I mean... Okay, well, I mean, if you want to be asked about your favourite month.

This is lovely. April has been fantastic, hasn't it? With those beautiful little pale green leaves coming out on the trees. And the trees seem so happy. We're in the Dean now and the Dean is absolutely gorgeous. It just feels so rich and beautiful down here. We're in Newcastle. We're in Newcastle, in the Dean,

Jessmund Dean, which was bought by a guy who made his fortune from selling machine guns to both sides in the Sino-Japanese War, I understand. I mean, I might be slightly dodgy history, but... Oh, nice. But I mean, but there is a waterfall. There's a beautiful waterfall,

which was blasted out with gunpowder. It wasn't like that before. It was, he'd made it much more dramatic. How did you end up in this part of the world? Have you always been here? Yeah, I was just dropped here. Yeah, my mum dropped me here. I was born, what?

Well, I was born in the general hospital. So, I was just three miles away or something like that. But, I mean, most of my life actually had lived away from Newcastle, but this is very much, very, very much home. We came as kids. There's a quarry you can scramble around in, and stepping stones up the river you can fall in the water from and good stuff like that.

What was a childhood? Desmond Dean Day like them? We would come down here with my mum. And that piece of grass across there, I was just saying, you know, we would bring a rug and an old wicker basket with, you know, plates held in leather straps on the roof of, in the lid of the basket.

And, yeah, you'd spam and white bread sandwiches, you know, those are the days. How do you feel about picnics generally? You're a picnic fan? Do you know, we haven't had a picnic. Have we ever had a picnic since we got together? You got one picnic? We must have.

We should have. We haven't really. We've had walks. We had lots of walks. And you turned me back on to ice cream. Oh, you got Gillian back onto ice cream? Where'd you been from ice cream? Why did you retire from ice cream in the first place?

It's your sort of thing, really? I didn't really, but we liked my sisters and I liked ice lollies. Okay. And my mother was a bit suspicious of them because there was lead in the wrapping. She was quite very eco. I see. Yeah, yeah. And then you got on to Jitans, didn't you?

She smoked Jitans. I ended up with Jitan roll-ups. I absolutely loved smoking, as did my dad. And my mother smoked as well. And did you give up at some point? Yes, 27 years ago. Okay. Did this coincide with the ice cream event as well?

You put down the ice cream and the cigarettes at the same time? No. But you did give up smoking. Yes. Is that a good thing? Well, now especially it's really good because if you have anything to do with medical people and you say, I actually gave up smoking and they are really impressed, which is hugely gratifying

because it was the most difficult thing I have ever done. Yeah. It was dreadfully difficult. How did you do it? Well, I'd spent a long time beforehand, leaving an hour between cigarettes. And that was one thing that helped. So I was working with a woman who was a spiritual healer.

I mean, she'd done naturopathy training. But I don't think I could have done it without her. You know, we had a really deep relationship. So, yeah. And I've actually managed to stay with it. So I don't believe it. I never say to myself I've given up smoking. I could go back to it any minutes.

How many would you smoke a day prior to giving up? Between 15 and 30, probably. Yeah. Oh, well done for the willpower. Did anything replace cigarettes? Did he start playing more scrabble? No, I think coffee. I mean, I drank a lot of coffee anyway.

chocolate. I mean, I realised I'm addicted to addiction. I needed advice, so I turned it into chocolate and I, some smoker in my head. You seriously think that's an addiction? We still get through the chocolate to now? Is it still chocolate? Yes, I just need something that's a sort of wicked addiction. Yes. I'm with you on that one. I think we all need something like that, you know? Well, I've, what's mine?

It's definitely not smoking. Good. Yeah. I would say mine is, it's like peanut butter issue. Where I kind of get, I get big, big tubs of the stuff. And they're very good now. They're very edible as a sole, bit of, food.

You eat by the spoonful? Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Wow. Crazy stuff. I just don't even put it on anything. No. And that's a, that's a problem. In one particular episode of this podcast,

I did once mention the peanut butter issue before. And I mentioned the brand name, the one I like. And the person who, the owner of that brand or the person got in touch and sent me some, some other things, which has got me even more hooked. Right. You know, so that's the danger of mentioning brands. Oh, right. Well, I'll just say, lint, lit dark chocolate is my thing.

Yeah, yeah. 90% lint, that's what I need. Yeah. Do you have children? I have, yes, I have a son and a daughter. And my daughter's producing, probably maybe even at this moment, is producing another child. So that would be exciting.

This very moment? Possibly. Well, very likely, yeah. She's due. She's absolutely due. Yeah, it's one thing, I mean, it's awe-inspiring to see somebody go through that. It's really hard. And you've got kids?

I do. You do? Okay, so you've been there. I have. Both occasions. Cool. Oh, excuse me. I was kind of assuming you look so young.

Oh, that's supposed to me. My children are quite old now. I say, oh, they're old, you know, they're 12. One's 12. Right, right, right. Oh, well. You wait any minute now they'll have PhDs. How have you found being a parent generally?

Well, so we're spilling the beans here, aren't we? I mean, so we separated. The mother of my children and I separated. And it wasn't easy. It was seemed unnecessary to me. But it was fine until the lawyers got involved. And it was hard. My kids are great.

you know, they're very bright. They do both have PhDs now, which is beyond comprehension. I mean, watching somebody go through that. Watching your kids doing a PhD, wow, that is tough. Have your children had to defend their PhD against you? Have you tested them out? No, my son, I mean, I did a physics degree.

My son did a physics degree as well. In fact, they both did physics degrees. And he was investigating, whether you could make a particular kind of solar panel. There's some quantum mechanical stuff, and I just, I couldn't understand what the hell he was talking about. Completely beyond me. Serious maths.

He gave me the PhD, and it's embarrassing that, you know, I just didn't actually manage to read it, you know. Well, you helped, you know, make him in the first base, so... That is true. He's got a lot to thank you for. That is true. It's great teaching people stuff, because that's when you learn it, isn't it?

You know, so. So you're only seeing some some stuff to a grandchild? Well, yeah. It's my first grandchild, yeah. It's my first one. It's my first one. So you seem very relaxed.

Well, yeah. And now three hundred miles away. That's right, yeah. I can hardly feel the pain at all. No, I am, truthfully, truthfully, I am quite nervous for her. I hope it's, you know, fingers crossed. So are you, you know, touch with all this well, what will be your next move?

Will you be, where do you say it's happening? It's in London. Oh, it's in London. So will you be on the first train? No, I should be on the second train sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Her mum will be down there in the immediate aftermath. And indeed, no, it's really helpful to have someone there, as you'll know.

I mean, it really helps. How do you get, what our relations like with, with the mother? Okay. When I look back on it, and I look back on it. You judge the mug, but when I look back on it. You know, we needn't, if we needn't have come apart, it's ridiculous, really. And then you wouldn't be your Jillian? Well, that's true.

So, you know, swings it around and round. Yeah, so bad luck. No, well, that's true. It's true. Life is complicated, isn't it? But we went to various counsellors and therapists and things just to kind of try and sort out our relationship. So what age are we talking about now? I was getting around, I was around 40, I think, when we had the kids, yeah.

And then we were fine for about seven years and then things happened. Yeah, I'll talk about that. But we ended up going to relate. and they talked to us both individually your childhood and da-da-da-da and then we talk to us about the situation we were in how is it going and so the family brought us together

and then I remember the therapist, counsellor, woman counsellor saying to me I think what we have here is a communications problem and I think we could probably fix it if that's what you want so do you want to put it together again and if you'd asked me are you willing

I said yes She asked me Do you want to And I said no I'm fed up You know I've had enough I've tried

I've tried my level best To make it work And I'm just fed up with her And so do I want to get together No Now if she'd said Are you willing We would be together now

The kids would have been grown up In one household There wouldn't There was And the kids Suffer for best really Particularly Particularly my son

who was old enough to understand a bit what was happening and to want to change it to want to get us back together again and not to be able to this is the thing your first experience of trying to make something happen in the world

I'm not sure I should be telling you all this how did he try to get you back together again he certainly talked to her he probably talked to me um by the time you've become an adult you've got such a variety of ways of doing things.

A seven-year-old child can't really address. It's quite rare, although I haven't had that many instances of a child, despite knowing the situation, trying to get their parents back together. That's quite interesting. Yeah. But you think that's because he actually thought,

like you, that you were never that far away from it? Is that the point? It was, you know, it was touch and go and there was actually... No, I don't think he just knew it was the right thing. That you would be together? Yeah, that's... Because that is the right thing, isn't it? You know, the parents should be together

and the kids should grow up with that. And they have to go through... May I say this on your podcast? But they have to go through shit from time to time. They have things that difficult. Like we've been saying, we have... Sometimes you have difficult conversations. Well, to me, famously.

Yeah. It's really famously. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's hard being with another person, isn't it? It is, and inevitably. And maybe it should be. I mean... But, you know, it sounds like you've made two delightful humans. Yeah, yeah, they're great. And you probably had a good time at various points. Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, indeed, yeah, that's true. You know, maybe if you just flip it around, you know, there as many successes were had. You know, things can't be successful forever.

No. No, I suppose it's really... And then they have people, they have, you'll have your golden time. We did have a golden time. Her wedding and she got married in Cyprus this year. And it was wonderful. Oh, you went along? Of course.

Oh, that's nice? Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay, so you're invited to weddings. Oh, God, yeah. Okay, well, great. Can we get on okay? Okay, you know. It's just, and really, I suppose, you're right.

That's very good, Tom. That's very helpful. I mean, it was all fine, except I'll tell you why it wasn't fine for me during the process. And it wasn't fine for my son either at that at the time. He was really upsetting for him. So it became that. The standard deal was the mum would get them 12 days of a fortnight, and then the dad would get them those alternate weekends.

So as a father, you see your kids arrive, you know, this alternate week. weekend and you've kind of forgotten who they are and then you over the course the weekend you get back in touch with you you get close to them again and then they go away and you like you're just it's like you're being picked up and then dropped and they're picked up and then dropped and it's hard that it's really hard because I remember the one of the first nights when I was in sleeping in a different house from them and it was like a physical pain it was that was it surprised me I really wasn't expecting it. That's how it was.

For years, it occupied me all the time. And, you know, I thought a lot about it. And I am so grateful not to think about that time anymore, really. So you brought it all back. Son of a bitch. I was so innocent.

Walks across the bridge, hi. No. No, thank you. Thank you. It's good to it. You've heard this story before, haven't you? But it's, you know, it's, and yeah, they're great. I mean, humans, humans do this sort of thing, don't they? So you went, so you attended the wedding in Cyprus?

Absolutely. Every, it's amazing. And what was your, what was your, you know, what was your memory of the, you know, where were you positioned? Where did she put you? Back left or, you know, right at the front? Of course, right at the front. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

Myself, her mother, and the new family that we've just sort of acquired. The Cypriot family. Hang on one second, sorry. Who got married? My daughter. My daughter get married. Okay, right. Sorry.

I thought your ex-partner is getting married. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. She is married, but I was not invited to worry. Okay, I thought, sorry. You have a more generous spirit than I, no, it's my daughter getting married. Okay, fine, okay, okay, that's better. No.

And were you sat close-ish to ex-partner? Yeah, next door. Yeah. We're sitting next to each other, of course. Yeah, yeah. And we do talk to each other. I mean... What were any meaningful words exchanged between you on that day? You should ask you to a woman, I don't remember conversations verbatim.

Apart from that one 12 years ago, when you claimed that Gillian said that thing that she actually thought you were right about a family. You remember that? I remember when she told me I was right, yeah. But there were no kind of passing remarks about the daughter getting married. It's quite a big day. Oh, God, yeah.

I'm pretty sure her mum said, she's so beautiful. Because she was beautiful. Yeah, she was beautiful that day. So the way they do it in Cyprus, when the groom is getting dressed up, so the groom and the bride aren't together at that point, the family are all, they all turn up. The groom comes out sort of basically dressed in vest and his underwear, basically. What comes out?

Just what in front of the congregation? No, no, not in the congregation. This is at home. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, okay, okay. And they have a basket and they bring him sort of, you know, a shirt and a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes and all this. So he only gets dressed. And so that was great fun.

And then they had musicians and stuff. It was really cool. Yeah. No, it was lovely. Did you have a formal role? Anything you needed to do on the day? Yep. I had to stand in line and have hundreds of people come and greet me. Okay. Yeah. Because that's culturally what happens. Shake hands and things, yeah.

Whereas the handshaker's firm at the start as it was at the end? No. I'm getting a bit floppy. Oh, it's fine. I was fine. No, Cyprus is nice. And the people are smart and they're very, they're very, People always say this, didn't they? They say the people are wonderful. And I really did feel that. Cyprus is a great place. We didn't treat Cyprus great as British, you know.

We are... You're talking about the government here, not you. We're talking about... No, not me, no, no. No, I'm talking about... It's not your general philosophy. Perfidius Albion, yeah, Britain. I mean, I am...

In a way, I'm proud of being of Britain, and in a way, I'm really shamed of it. We have... We have done terrible things. Yeah, we have. We have. Obviously, you've been with each other 14 years. Amazing, yeah? So this is a question for both of you, related to the other person.

Okay. Can you think of a particular moment which you think most defines why you think highly of that person? Does that make sense of the question? There's something where you just go, hang on. Yeah, that's why I think this person is great. He wants to go first. No pressure.

I think you've got something to say, yeah? There are so many, but I think the day after he had the operation in the hospital here to seal up the leaking blood vessel. Yeah. And so his life was saved by the team, and I remember going to see him the day after. And I came up and found intensive care. Yeah. And walked in and I encountered this rather sort of a large round armchair.

It was like a throne and you looked like an old emperor. And then there was a terrible complication with the man in the bed next to you, got COVID and the whole world had to be evacuated after all this had happened before. and you knew which medicine you needed and you fought your way up to the top of the hierarchy of doctors I mean when I saw you stumping up and down the corridor of the ward in your hospital pyjamas when you were not going to give in all your energy had come back and I was hugely grateful

because I thought that's really I mean I know they did a magnificent job But I thought, no, it's your spirit. You just weren't going to die. You were impressed with my... It's your fighting spirit, yes. Oh, thank you. Oh, that's good. That's a nice one.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Well, now, well, your turn now. Well, you know, you're not going to get... You're not going to get off. He's got a great one. Yeah, you will.

Well, so not long after we got together, there was a weekend at Wordsworth South in... in the late district. Grassmeer. And she gave a writing workshop, which was great. She's a really good, really good teacher of creative writing, was Gillian. You were very good. You were very willing, and you gave out the pencils.

You were giving out the pencils, fantastic. So what was it about seeing Gillian in that particular environment, which made it sound out? She was a master of the situation. And, so I can I have two? Oh, yeah, oh, here we go, yeah, like it. Are we going to keep going? So, what, only three months ago, we were in London in the festival hall, and she read her poetry to 2,000 people in a huge...

In a huge auditorium. And I, you know, you read very well. It was great. Were you nervous? Yes and no. It's an annual competition. And I'd been short, this was the third time I'd been shortlisted.

But it was much more daunting this year because the poetry world has finally learned how to do publicity. This is crazy. I just, I really like the festival hall. And it felt, it feels very ordinary because it, you know, it was, It was in 1951, I think, wasn't it, that it opened?

And so we're about the same age. Perfect. You've grown with it. Yes, and I just, I don't know, it doesn't feel like a threatening situation. I don't get freaked out by readings particularly. Timing is hard with poetry readings, but as long as you get that all right then. How do you know a poetry reading is going well? The quality of the attention. attention. Yeah, okay. You can feel it in every pore of your skin. Yeah, yeah. Yes. You can hear a pin drop. I listen to the audience in

every pore of my skin. That's how it feels. And then if I, if they're meeting that, that's, that's working all right. And then how did you feel after it? Did you feel content? Yes, I was pleased and it was also live screened. So a lot of people that I know, oh, well, up here and see every day. I got lots of feedback and from my family. My sisters were both online and, yeah. Brilliant. You were there? You were present?

I was. I was there. Were you nervous for her? I mean... No. You handle those situations. It's not a worry for you, is it? And yeah, you are a master of your, a mistress of your craft.

I'm not in competition with it. Gillian's poetry is some... It's brief and there's a lot of air in them. Yes. Yeah. It's a mystery, isn't it, poetry? It's not easy. It's a very hard work reading kind.

And Gillian always said people are nervous about poetry. And it's a shame really. I mean nervous about talking about, nervous about reading it? Oh, writing it? Oh, no. You know, oh, that would be sort of like, you know, it's like those terrible dreams where you sort of find yourself,

walking along a catwalk and suddenly you suddenly realize you're naked and there's people on I never have those dreams well I know what you're talking about never not one no no no no no but that's the sort of thing it doesn't people feel naked when they're sort of if they're write poetry I think and it's it's a shame it's but it's lovely to be naked just ask the nudists they love it that's true yeah but there's also I always feel like the poems like a bowl and it when it's finished contains what you're saying desperately about yourself and the most intimate things in your life, somehow it's protected because it's within the poet.

I like that. Poetry is a bowl. I like that. You're not, you did the way, you did the workshop, but you left it there. I'm done two, about three workshops, haven't there? Something like that. Do you think he could be a good poet? Do you think he is a good poem? I think I shouldn't pontificate about it.

She's just being kind. I could write, but that wouldn't be my natural thing. No. I would write about anything else write about science probably, wouldn't I? I'm interested in how things are and explanations. What are the great, what in the world scientifically currently can you just not fathom that you wish you could fathom? That's okay, I'm going to answer a slightly different question. You know, I am...

That's always the dream. You answer whatever question you want. I am absolutely in awe of life. I mean, the weird idiosyncratic ways that viruses come up and do things, just things that you wouldn't expect. And, I mean, how does our immune system work? I mean, I know a lot about how our immune system works. It's unbelievable.

But physics is pretty much solved, and it's great. I mean, I love the fact that, you know, the universe starts out with a big bang, and then you get photons, and then you get hydrogen and atoms, and then you get the condensions into stars, and, you know, then you get metals. And it's wonderful, isn't it? What a great story, you know. And but then life, bloody hell. Do we think that life is only here on this planet?

I mean, a bit nervous about that because it really could get wiped out any minute, couldn't it? I mean, we won't wipe it out with climate change. We might wipe out a civilisation. But it's wonderful. Life is just so much more than you could possibly hope for, really. And, you know, it's miserable, it's cold, and it's Tuesday, and I hate myself.

I hope my life, you know. So we're pretty ungrateful creatures, aren't we? But I think if we were too grateful and two in all the time, you would just be overwhelming. Yeah, that's right, you just sort of sit there. You wouldn't get anything done. That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I, can I, can we have five or minutes?

There's something I really want to do, because this is the first time we've had two people at the bench. I'm going to give this my microphone to Gillian. Can you stick that on just your, your, the top there somewhere. And because we've heard much more from this one. No surprise. No surprise.

This is a normal state of affairs. What I'm going to do is this. I am going to go round the corner for a few minutes. The job is you must ask questions of Gillian. Right, okay. And I'll be back in three minutes.

If you go down there, you'll find a bridge and then you can come back along the other side. How about that? And there's a bridge there. Ah, well. Questions for you? Okay. Yeah.

Well, Julian, yeah. So we've been for 14 years. So, I mean, are you happy that we did that? Yes, absolutely. It hasn't been easy. But yes, overall. What was what was hard? Um, as long as I,

can go off by myself and be in my writing place and be alone there. It's not difficult. It's been great, a great combination. Yes, but I don't know whether I'll go on needing to do that. I might open up more so that I can be sharing myself more person to person. I don't know. You're important in my journey. So I've provided the difficulties that you needed to make progress. Yes, absolutely. Can you give an example of what those difficulties might be?

What kind of things that you wouldn't have otherwise kind of, it would have taken longer to address them? The fact that in some ways you and I are so different, accepting those differences, and having to not just tolerate another human being, but open up to that human being and rejoice. That's been the most important thing. And what's been good about it?

Well, that has. I do not rejoice easily. That's been great. So I think you're right. Some difficulties that we have had in the past of that I see things differently than you do. I think we've got past them in a way. But then it feels to me like there are still other challenges.

I mean, we've all got the challenge we're going to die, haven't we? But I'm not talking about that. I mean, but there are things still in your life that you're working through. So what do you think? What kind of things? What are you working through at the moment? Yes, I think you have been, you are important to me on my own, journey into being more of a whole human being than I have been able to be until now.

I mean, there were big distortions and difficulties when I was born and in the first few years of my life. And some of them were, I think, too difficult to deal with until now. And so it's, and I, and you've been instrumental in helping that to happen. I kind of get that because actually, you know, it is easier to be yourself if you've got someone that you can share that with. Yes, yes. Because how else are you going to sort of talk about how things are, how things are really? And you can't, we can't, you can't get to a point where you, where you can talk in an absolute straightforward way. I mean, we might call it an open way, a way which is where you don't have to be pretending until you've done an awful.

lot of talking. Yes. Yeah. Which we have. We have done a lot of talking. Yeah. I mean in a way, I still think, so is it, do you still see your, your sort of main thing as, it is, your main thing still writing. That's what you, you said to me the other day, well, I'm not sure I'm going to go on writing. But I don't, I don't believe you. I think you will. So, yeah, so. So you've got something. I don't know what I have, really. I just kind of do things. I just, I just fix things. You've got computers. Well, I know, but I mean, you know that, yeah. Your expertise and the extent to which you can help all the people around you in their struggles with this peculiar technology.

Difficult technology. Yeah. Yeah. And are you optimistic about, about the... such things as a difficult still, which I think you find it difficult as you get nervous about things. Do you feel sort of like that you're going to get control of all that? I feel, I mean, things become difficult between us because we each have our rough edges and shaky bits. And I think in extremes, oh no, it's all finished, that's terrible. You do, you think in extremes, that's true, yeah.

But then it's another day and we're on a different level and we're teasing each other or something. I think, oh, it's all right, actually. It's that variation that I find difficult to live with. But actually, that's the thing that's necessary, I think. And it's true, we have got to a point where we know each other well enough. And we've been through, like, difficult conversations. Rouse, you might call them rouse.

But they're not really rouse. They're not kind of like we're shouting at each other. We're intensely exchanging arguments often. But we've been through them and then you come out the other side and so you know that in a future situation. That's the same thing's going to happen. In the end, you know, in a couple of hours' time

we're going to have supper. So it makes it possible to just stand back from the difficulties. Yes, yes. Shall we get him back again? Well, yes. We could run off with his equipment. Well, actually Tom, you know, that was, that was for actually that's been very, thank you very much. Having that conversation between us is actually really quite useful. We've said a couple of things to each other. We haven't really said before. Quite appreciative things to each other. Oh, how lovely. Yeah. You see what you can do.

And, you know, you've made our relationship go on different tracks. Right. Well, we've done it. We have. Yes. But there's one last question. Oh, no. Don't worry.

You remember there was a first and the last? Well, yes. And we talked about your last question, of course. The last question is, what are you going to do next? You see, it's a springboard. We're not dying. We're going forward forever. Yeah.

Well, I don't know what Gillian. I don't know what the answer to Julian's answer is. I mean, I am trying to understand what the hell is going on with AI. And I want an AI assistant to take on my do list and just tell me what to do. So you're just very concerned about AI things. God knows where it's going. God knows where it's going. But I do think it's going to change everything.

And about bloody time. I mean, you know, this world where the only thing that matters is money. I mean, I did a business course a long time ago. We did an accounting module. And the very first thing they told us was, the accounting guys said, well, what you have to realize is everything in our world is measurable in terms of money. No. No.

No. I mean, it's not. But the world that we're in is really stupid. In order for you to have a means of, not you, most people, to have a means of getting the necessities of life, we have to basically come up with some stuff that somebody else wants to buy. So in order to be allowed to be alive, well, I mean, what the hell? That's a very good way of putting it.

You know, we are, the world is incredibly wealthy and we just don't have to do it this way. Am I talking too much? That's what I mean, you know, I mean, but yeah, this is all good. You're saying good things. Yeah. Listen, I absolutely need to find a loo. Right.

Can you answer? So you're going to say what you're going to do next? Go to the loo? Yes. Anything else in a grand, grand way? You're just going to answer in a matter-of-fact way. No pressure. When I found a loo, then I'll know what I'm going to do next.

I'm going to research how to build this gate. Yes. Oh, my God. The gate. We've got to do the gate. Gates still off its hinges, but the garden's looking fine. Maybe with the summer you can find the time. First we beg to differ, then agree to disagree.

Saturdays or Sundays, Providence, or anarchy. where I'm supposed to be So laugh until it's funny Or leave it at the door Sit right here if it takes all year To get a triple word score Say you've got it figured This mystery of living

And the past won't hold a grader But the future's less forgiving I was older now I'm where I'm supposed to be I was young they