Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 99: Everyone Deserves To Have Secrets

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

Tom Rosenthal approaches a stranger on a park bench and asks if he can sit down next to them and record their conversation.This is what happened! Produced by Tom RosenthalEdited by Rose De LarrabeitiMixed by Mike WoolleyTheme tune by Tom Rosenthal & Lucy Railton Incidental music by Maddie AshmanEnd song : 'Textbook Kisses' by AK PattersonStream it here : Listen to all the end songs featured on the podcast (so far) on one handy playlist :https://ffm.to/soabendsongs————————————————————————————Instagram : @strangersonabench Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello. So it's bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? It is really. I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Look around and ask people on benches for a chat. Yeah? That's fun. It's a strange thing. You know, life is full of ridiculous things we do to pass the time. to get us from birth to death.

Yeah, kudos to you doing it. It's got to fill in the time. How'd you fill in your time? Are we started? Started when we were born. I've just taken redundancy. It's probably why I'm sitting on a bench in the afternoon on a working day. So I'm trying to find a new pattern of life and also I've started volunteering as well.

Whoa, fantastic. Yeah. I'm always excited of anyone trying to start a new pattern of life. Yeah. What was wrong

with your old pattern? I was working in the same job for 20 years. Long time? Yeah. And... What kept you there

for so long? Well, it was fun. It was... It's a good reason. And I guess you got money for it. I got lots of money. Not a lot as well.

I got a gradual ladder of money. You had a ladder made out of money? I mean, that'd be way more exciting. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? I would be clabbering out of that bad boy all the time.

Just in cash, just strapped together. So there was money. There was money, but there was fun. It was fun. Why did you ever leave? But then it got less fun. Oh, because. It was working at a newspaper.

And it became more of a churning digital thing out. What you're saying is the computers ruined your life. AI. It's a general theme for most people's jobs at the moment, isn't it? I've been there 20 years. Yeah. And they offered me. nice payout so I laugh. When they offer you a payer how do they do that? They just did a

sweeping like 48 jobs have been made redundant. Here's what you could have won if you want to take it. This is the figure if you'd like to go. If you'd like to reapply for the job there's like 24 jobs going so I took the number. And how do they do this by the way? They did it in some awful. Does a town cry rock up and say 48 jobs? It was very similar. Like They all just suddenly put a meeting in our diaries. 50 people went upstairs to a corporate room that we'd never been to before and given a PowerPoint presentation. And then they said if there's any questions, ask questions.

And then one person asked questions. It all got a bit minor strike quite quickly. Then they said, no more questions, the questions are illegal. Seriously? They said those words? They shut down the meeting. Even though the meeting was meant to last a couple of hours. And they called it?

Yeah, it lasted like 12 minutes. and everyone had to go out. So someone just got to them very quickly. They shut it down. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That was like a weird sort of slightly out of body experience that I had with the whole thing

and then just went back down in a lift and sat on my desk. And then it was like a lot of people were just writing their CVs or frantically looking at the jobs that need to be applied for. And I just thought, oh no, I could do that. And they've given me this golden ticket, I think. It's starting to tap it out. Wow. It's an important 12 minutes in your life then.

Yeah. If I had to press you for what has been another important 12 minutes in your life that you can remember? I mean, my dad actually died last year and he worked in the same industry. And sometimes I feel like there was a certain element of what I was trying to follow his... read often and you thought that or someone else thought that i think a lot of people might have thought that but are they right maybe a little bit but i did grow up in a household of journalists both my parents and it's a bit like i guess growing up with butchers or something yeah you've become kind of makes sense it does but i feel like there's connotations with it in that in certain

industries because it you can be thought of as a bit of nepo yeah yeah yeah Yeah. And with him, the 12 minutes story, sorry. So yeah, that's the 12 minutes. Is that him dying? Well, I didn't put a timer on it, but I was there when he died. Yeah. And the last couple of minutes, I remember very strongly. So, yeah, and I'm curious as to know whether one, like, I would have been so chill about taking that next step. the other one happened, I don't know. I'm having a lot of grief therapy about it at the moment.

It would make sense of the two tie together. Yeah. Can you describe the two minutes for me? Oh, a lot of people say, oh, it's a privilege. I don't know if I'm there yet. Maybe like 98% of me was horrified by the whole thing, and then 2% found it kind of fascinating. Does that sound really macaw?

No. Oh, fascinating in the sense. It was like turning off a light switch. Sure. I don't know if you ever seen it any one. Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah, well, you know that it just not like the movies.

He died at home as well and again, not like the movies. Not a lot of things are. No, but I thought, I think he thought it might be. He thought it might be. Like the movies? Like the movies. We're all like sitting around to bed and someone says something, he says some things and then takes a last breath and, you know. But it's not, it's like district nurses revolving doors of carers and morphine and horrible, horrible things happening.

And yeah, I thought it's upsetting still. Of course it is. But yeah, I was the only one with him when it actually happened. There's a reason for that? Well, my sister had gone home because she has kids, and mum was downstairs, drinking Rose and watching TV. She just seemed to find the whole thing terribly inconvenient, but... I suppose it is?

It is. It really was. It was not convenient to the plan of, let's have Dad alive, please. So it was kind of awful, and then he died, and then mum slept in the room, with him. We didn't get the person around until the next morning, which was kind of strange as well. But I think the whole thing was so strange that nothing seems strange, although that does sound strange in retrospect that she, like, slept in with him for like 10 hours and he was dead. It didn't seem strange at the time. I mean, if she wanted to do that, it's not strange as all. Yeah.

I kind of believe in sometimes why people die at certain times with certain people. But do you think there's anything to read into the fact that your father type of just you? I mean, I could be. When he was in hospital, we regularly talked about us being like best mates and he said to me, I was the first one to hold you when you were born because my mum had an emergency caesarian and all this kind of stuff. We certainly had a deep trust for each other and when he died of, well we think it was

esophagus cancer but it basically just exploded in his body. He was 77 so it doesn't sound bad but to me it seemed too early as well. But the last Christmas we had together I was sharing a cheeseboards and drinking port with with him and he died on the 5th of February and start to get ill sort of mid-January, mid-January mid-January. I couldn't fathom it and then I went back home and he like read the Daily Mail way too much and was all like I'm not going to hospital I'm going to wait to see a specialist I don't want to like be in a corridor blah blah and I got back and I was like we need to go to hospital like I couldn't believe what I was seeing

and so I took him to A&E and then sort of negotiated when I say negotiations I mean begged. I literally got on my knees and begged for bed because I just couldn't bear it. He was so ill. And I wouldn't say it worked, but it worked. Yeah. And I said, all right, like, I love you so much, Dad.

And he said, I hope you've left me in no doubt of that. Like, he played an absolute blinder here. And then it was just hurtling towards palliative. care and then end of life care. So that was a space of three weeks. So he had on Christmas day, he didn't feel anything strange. You didn't see anything strange. You didn't see anything strange. Sometimes when you're, you know, the closest people, you just don't really see it. Do you think you were aware of anything? Yeah, my sister said she's wrote in her journal. I don't think Dan seemed very well that day, but I didn't see. But you know, like Christmas sometimes you feel

like you're in this like time loop. I go back to my parents. and go back to this existence where we get all the same decorations out tablecloths, everything so it's like everyone gets a bit older and things do change but it seems the same so maybe I just didn't see it as she did

that's interesting yeah yeah so you're kind of in a you're in the child role anyway there children don't see quite as much I'm just like look after me yeah and it's interesting that obviously suddenly everything flips

yeah and now you're kind of a grown-up trying to sort him out. Yeah, and that's exactly what happened with him because he didn't have a big leading up illness. So he went from being as really strong, he did his exercise every morning, to being, he was trying to message somebody and he just dropped his phone and just couldn't.

He was so exhausted. And then I was the person trying to rally everything, get everything done, like writing spreadsheets of carer timetables and pills and pills. that I had to give and all this kind of stuff. Then I was all consuming and I do remember thinking, God, what do I do when I don't have to do this?

Even though this has been my life for a matter of days. You knew it was going to be very different in the other side, basically. Yeah. And those last three weeks. Did anything surprise you about what your dad said to you? Or kind of, did you hear anything for the first time? Well, one thing that surprised me was,

the relationship between my mum and dad in that moment. Again, absolutely not like the movies. And they've been together like 60 years. They didn't want to seem to want to be around each other. And I just thought that was extraordinarily strange and couldn't fathom that two people spent so long together. didn't want to be together in the last moment. Like I said to you, I'm doing grief therapy,

but most of my grief therapy seems to evolve around this. So what you're grieving really is what you thought you knew about your parents' relationship? I think so. Obviously, like, I knew they bickered and, like, you know the dynamic of your parents. I guess I brought into a sort of idea that if something like this was to happen,

that it wouldn't play out the way it would. played out and I was just like, well, there's no going back. It's like, you know, we're against the clock, but she just didn't seem to budge on that. And then he didn't seem to want her around. Yeah, and I haven't spoken to her about it. And then no huge surprise that maybe that she's downstairs with the roseate.

It's all starting to make a bit of sense out. Yeah, so that part, and then there's this, I feel a bit mean like saying this, actually. I feel a bit me. I mean, you haven't really said anything. You just said things that have occurred. I mean, also, I always think, as you were talking, I would imagine that this scenario is not that unlikely.

I just feel like there's a chance that that's not unheard of thing. I don't know if it seems like a kind of an odd support group to seek out. My parents weren't as together as I thought they were on the point of death. Yeah. But I'm sure that probably is something. I think you're probably right. I think it was just hard. It was a strange thing to witness. So mother's still around. Yeah.

So you've not asked her about all this stuff or you have? I haven't. I feel like whatever I said she would just hear something accusation. Yeah. That she would just hear it as you fucked up when dad was trying. But would you be accusing her of anything? would you just be asking you questions? I would love to ask her. How do you feel about that now?

But I think it would just upset her, and I don't think I'd get anything that would be like a proper grown-off answer. Hmm. I mean, here's another proposition for you that I think probably is the most painful one. You know, your parents and all our parents are drawn a different age.

Where in some social circles, to get divorced or whatever, like a matter of great shame in some families and people just didn't do it you know where when they should have done and maybe it all comes out in the end you know everything's a mirror how could you not then look at her own life her own decisions what might have been you know like yeah we still have these dreams whatever age so kind of I don't know I feel like that's also just a realistic proposition yeah it's funny you say that because when we were in the hospital I felt like it was almost a bit of a prepared speech

but he was like, well, you know, some people might say why me, but I think why not me and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, oh, I've heard that. I'm like, I had heard. I know it's quite a cliche. Oh, interesting. You had heard it.

I heard it because Joe Biden said it. Oh, wow. When his kid died and then his other kid had cancer or something. Yeah, it was just regurgitating a Joe Biden's speech on his deathbed. Why not? I don't know if he'd like put it in there. And then he'd said, I've had a wonderful life and I've traveled all over the world and I've married my teenage love.

He was saying it to these doctors and I was like, wow, that sounds different than it looks. But maybe that's maybe like what you said is right. Maybe that's because certain generations want to say that sentence. I met her when I was 18. We were together nearly 60 years. I mean, just out of interest, how many couples do you know of roughly your age who met when they were a teenager who were still together? Yeah, I like a, I do know a couple in Reading, not London is. Redding, Albury, brutal, brutal, ready to sell there.

Same with me. I know one, I know one, I'm with prostitutes. It's always great where you hear when people are flying. like us. I know one couple. So look, yeah, I mean, I've known hundreds of couples. You know of hundred couples. We both know one couple each who have stayed together after being teenage loves. The odds are really stacked against your teenage loves, probably for a reason. Yeah. Oh my God, if I think about the boyfriends I had as teenagers, Jesus Christ. There you go. So imagine stay with one of those forever. Yeah. So maybe I should have a little bit of those forever. Yeah. So maybe I

I just think your mum was probably just reflecting on her own life and just kind of just done with it all. Or maybe she just wanted, I mean, maybe you're just, so we're really overthinking your mum's general approach it, but maybe she, that's her way of telling you. Maybe. I mean, if it is the case, you know, let's imagine your mum turn around one Sunday lunch, whatever, and said, I should have left your dad like 50 years ago. What would that mean to you? I mean, I'd have to put that grease therapist on Speedoff.

But interesting though, but so here's a question. I'm interested why that would bother you so much. Do you know what? My instant reaction is, so I'm just going to say it out loud, because it terrifies me even more about, like, my own choices. If she was to suddenly declare that, I'd be like, what a waste of life to be with someone you don't want to be with.

So that would be, so you'd feel sad for both of them, essentially. Yeah. And that's why it would be painful. Yeah, and then I'd feel scared. I think I'd feel scared all the time, but all choices. If the idea came forward that I've spent 50 years like over here, well, he's been over here, that would be terrifying to me. How have your own choices been?

My own choices have, well... So we know you're not with any teenage loves. Not with any teenage love. We've ruled that out. Yeah. I feel good overall about my choices. I find them interesting and reflect on them. Are we talking about romantically?

I mean, I was kind of veering towards romance, but really, however you want to talk about your own choices in relation to your mother's situation or potential situation. Yeah. Well, I've been reading a lot recently about impermanence. And like trying to have a good relationship with it. With impermanence? Yeah. Well, it started off learning about it in a Buddhist way of like if you can reflect that this is the only thing that exists. this second right now, then it will make you enjoy this second right now because it's precious.

But if right now my head is, will I ever get married or thinking about what I didn't do for dad or whatever, the past, the future, all these things, then the impermanence becomes quite terrifying. Our thoughts are so powerful sometimes that we just assume they're going to happen. And ultimately, maybe this is leaping back to mom's behaviour because maybe she just didn't understand. that he was dying, even though she should understand death by the age of 7 to 7. Maybe she just thought, well, if I just ignore this thing that's permanently going to happen from now on. That was what her baby seemed like, but... You know, maybe there's something in that.

Maybe it was just like, it was just another moment for her. Yeah. Just, well, I've had a million moments of this person, while in them dying. You know, death is such a big headline, isn't it? But, like, you know, it's just one day of their life, in which, of course, there are, you know, there are so many other everything else you know and if you think about that maybe she just kind of gone well it's another day I love how chill you make herself I'm baiting your mother is yeah you didn't you know you say she's downstairs with the

roses that's quite chill to me yeah yeah it is one moment one day it's just so shit that overall that build up to that one day has to be so terrible for the person I think it's a very I think it's a good idea to quit the job though. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's better to just confront these things rather than to shy, like, nothing, nothing is understood by shying away from stuff, right?

You want to understand yourself, you understand your family, you understand your dad, you understand his death. All these things are not going to be done by just busying yourself. Yeah. It makes sense to have a change. My sister is paying every single real. every single room in her house on loop. Yeah, like she's sort of like a caricature of someone keeping themselves busy. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's... Well, it's good for you to see what the other side looks like. Yeah. Probably somewhere in the middle is the dream. Yeah. You're both, you know. Is there another sibling?

Just you two. Just asked you, yeah. Do you think, um, I got quite into at one point as part of my, the process of my dad to try and find out some information about him that could only be found out through certain means. Like contacting people that he had worked with. And I found that really useful. You know, we all are a bit comedian like in our social interactions. Yeah. And there's a good chance your dad had a whole side or sides to himself which he showed to certain people and not to you. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's really useful. Even if some of those sides are,

particularly pretty, whatever, to know a bit more about those sides and get a full of picture. Yeah, it's interesting that you say that before he died when he came home, he added like a tiny bit of energy still. And he had a study and it was like packed to the rafters for stuff. And he was like, I need to spend some time with my study. And he was like, I feel a bit bad sharing this story actually. I haven't shared it with anyone. should I mean it's not that informative but it's interesting.

If it's on the tip of your tongue it must mean something. Well it only because you triggered it by saying about knowing about his life and then he said can you bring me some bin bags and I said you know there's some in here because there was like a load of recycling bags in there already and he they were see-through and he was like no can you get me some black bin bags so I got him a couple of black bin bags and he basically like shut himself in there, then presented me with a couple of bin bags, had tied them up, and it's like, can you take them downstairs, and then can you put them in the bin, and then can you wheel the bin out because the bin's being collected tomorrow?

And in that process, I realised that there was something in them that could be huge, or it could be, like, I have actually discussed this to my sister, and she was like, I mean, it could be porn, but then there was, we did find old, retro porn so I don't think it was I don't think he'd be that we bothered about that but and then I didn't look in them because it was his obviously his wish not to and I did wheel the bin out and the next morning I went into his room the first thing he said to me was like can you look out the windows of the bin been being collected and I checked the bin then it'd been and whatever was in those bags gone I try not to think about it too much but obviously there's

You know, me and my sister being like, is it another sibling? Was it an affair? Are they love letters? It's something really rude or dark or I don't know what it was. I'll never know. But it was kind of, I feel kind of good that I didn't look. And that he trusted me with it. I think everyone deserves some secrets.

I'm speaking. I mean, two full bin bags of papers. I'd say it's papers, yeah. Your definite papers? I'd say so, yeah. Describe the weight of each bin bag? Maybe the equivalent of like eight, ten newspapers? Like weekend newspaper?

Yeah, with the supplements for the ads removed. Yeah, I can't quite be sure. Eight to ten weekend newspapers worth of weight. Yeah, but again, like, you know, he didn't want to be sure. want to dick about with recycling. He was like, you put them in the main bin. I don't care. It wasn't the time of recycling.

They're quite sticklers for recycling. So for once he, yeah, he wrote the rules. My go-to thought would be that, like, you're not going to have that volume of love letters. No. That would be like a mad stack. Yeah, that's true. That would be rampant love letters.

Yeah. Then my sister was like, oh. It could be like a whole secret family, but that wouldn't work out. I mean, they would never see him. I think just having loads of papers probably doesn't necessarily indicate a secret family. No. That is really intriguing, isn't it? I mean, with your mum, no?

Did you tell you what you haven't told your mum? No. Yeah. I mean, personally, I like what you said about we've all got a right to keep secrets. Yeah. I fundamentally did the right thing. Yeah. I'm guessing he was thankful.

Was he thankful that you had done this? It was more just like a straight do this, like a tone, right, where it's like this is official. So I guess without him saying, I knew that it was a thing that needed to be done. Yeah. Especially because I prodded it a bit with the, well, there's bin bags up here,

but they were C3 bit bags. That's also intriguing because like, what would you have seen in the C-through bin? Like, if they just weren't, would it even encourage you to have a I don't know. Maybe it was porn. I don't think it was because we found porn. So if you found...

Like old school magazine porn. Yeah. So if you found old porn, right? That probably means... Why am I talking to a stranger? My dead dad's porn. My dead dad's porn. Oh, Lord.

But it's... Look, if you go back to what he said in the hospital, you know? Yeah. Here's a person. You know, he's got his speech like that. He's saying it. No, I've lived this life. Joe-bidened...

You know, yeah, I joe-binded life. You know, I've been a person. And, you know, it makes sense then that, like, you don't want people going into your study and find anything that would dampen. Yeah. And he knows people are going to go through some stuff. You know, so he's got a vision of what he would like to be seen as, clearly. Yeah. So then, yeah, you're looking for things at dampen the vision.

A huge stack of porn. Maybe something he would consider a reputation dampener. Yeah. I would say, for your own well-being. and generally as a guess I think it's both I think they both make sense I think you're right I think I'm still stuck in this like the movies thing aren't I want I think you've learnt now this is not the movie not like the fucking movie nothing is happening that relates to the movies in any way

but I mean but sometimes it's changed in the movies he might have had affairs I suppose you think he could have had affairs but that's not going to be in that's not going to be in you're right I mean that would be some serious material. I mean, look, I can like, so my mother had an affair with my father so I was born. Oh. So, you know, so I could text mother now

and say mother, like, if you had to count all the letters you received from my dad, like, how big is the stack? Would she say, definitely two black bits of course? Well, it's funny, that's just like, too black being bad. You wanted some into information.

You were the outcome of an affair. That's amazing. It happens to probably right, left, right, right, centre. So they never got together? Not officially, no. Oh. Yeah. Wow.

How fascinating. Yeah, well, I suppose it's not fascinating to you because you only know what you know. Well, no, it's not particularly to me, but I mean, it's a way of being born. Yeah. You know, it's got to be born some way. And then, you know. How does that make you feel about people out of affairs? Love it.

No, no. It's a really good question. It's really good question. I naturally, I naturally. I think affairs fundamentally, you know, never ideal. They often hurt a lot of people, understand the... But also, it's the real world. You know, life is brutal.

And sometimes we're humans and humans have desires and it happens. And it obviously happens all the time, everywhere, forever. I... Yeah, I feel lucky that I was born, I suppose. Do you? Through one? Good. Because I was definitely a 50-50, will they keep me?

Will they not? It was my mum's choice. You have siblings from her side or no? All right. That's just me. My mother's only boy. So you knew your dad growing up? Yeah.

But he was married someone else? Correct. That's fascinating. Yeah. I got really fascinated quite recently with Harold Pinta and Joan Bakewell's affair. Did you know it was turned into that stage play? Yes. I don't know that much about it.

Oh, wow. It went on for like, I think it went on for 11 years. How heavy were there been bags? Well, exactly. I mean, this is a thing. Their love letters are in the British Library. You can ask to go read them, so I like, dude. And it was like... Oh, you went just to read the love letters.

Wow. But it was the intensity. I mean, a love letter affair is... You're not going to get that these days. It's a beautiful thing. But there's this problematic thing now with the AI boyfriends and girlfriends. Oh, I see. The young people.

Oh, you can say write me a letter or something. Well, you can... They will do everything you want, but it's a fascinating sort of... craving, I think especially for younger women, that they're all terrified of these misogynistic men who've been watching porn since they were 10. And they've got like AI boyfriends who just like constantly contact them, tell them they're amazing. Like when they say, do I look good, they say yeah. Right. So what would you have your AI boyfriend do? I would have my AI boyfriend live separately.

I'm not easy range. And never, never want to do anything more than just hang out occasionally and go on holidays and stuff. But like, yeah. Hang on. So this is rewind a minute. So you weren't your AI boyfriend actually, but also you mean really your actual boyfriend. To be someone who doesn't live with you. Yes.

Right. And has his like own life. And never talks about when we live together. Yeah. You can never mention. Don't even think about the foster. This is the impermanent thing. We're only here now, let's not.

Don't ruin this. So basically, so the occasional holiday, how long a holiday we're talking? I'd like it to be like a sort of father in a child of divorce situation where we do weekends and holidays and that's fine. Like, I have lived with people for several years and I did get married for a very short period of time. Oh, did you? Yeah. That's a plot to us.

Yeah. A little bit of marriage there, shut it in. Yeah. Did you have to live with this person? I did. I lived with them. Well, we were together. like five or six years and then we got married and then we broke up.

Oh, there's a lesson somewhere in there. Yeah. What was so bad about marriage that you just... Well, he had quite ferocious bipolar. Oh, right. Yeah, that's not great for marriage. So... Why was the marriage bit, problem if he had that already?

Yeah. I have reflected on it a lot. I think for me, marriage took away... something fun. So you are big on this impermanence thing. I know. It's essential part of your life now, so I've realized. This is it.

Yeah, I do remember saying, like, hearing someone say, this is my wife. It's like the least sexy thing I've heard. Sounds like you need to be having a face. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just didn't gel with that. Yeah.

I was younger and I was younger. And I just did that societal pressure thing. Oh, I wasn't that young. I was like in my early 30s. And I don't have children, but I never wanted children. So it wasn't about that. Too permanent? Wait.

Me, I read this thing recently that somebody described, it was a woman, woman writer. The idea of having children as filling her pockets with stones and slowly walking. into a lake. No. And it really resonated with me.

I just thought, I just never wanted it, thank God. It never felt like a pull for me and I see people do you have children. I do have two. I'm sorry, I'm not criticising children

and not. Children are cool and everything. I have no, I think any rich way of approaching children and not having children absolutely fine. Yeah, but.

There's burying points either side. Right. I think I could have been okay at being a dad. Still time. Yeah. No, like I always sounded like a gig that I could have done quite like because I had a really good dad. Yeah. He made it look great. Yeah. I just look like being a mum looks, oh, that looks rough to me. It's hard. Yeah, that's for sure.

So that's parrothood. So that's not something you want to do? No, it never appealed to me. Do you like looking after anything? I have two cats. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. But you did live with someone at some point. You lived with your husband.

Oh yeah, I've lived with a few people. Yeah. How quickly did that? But I always wanted them to go. You always wanted to go. Like not go-go, but I always, there was something always in me where I'd be a bit like, when they talked about I've got to go back to his house or whatever,

I'd be like, I didn't want them to go. That's not fair. I mean, I think I loved that dynamic. And when that changed. I found it difficult, yeah. Yeah. One of the best songs that I've written, I used to write songs.

I still do, I suppose. It's a song that kind of wasn't one of my more popular ones. But I totally still, when I think bad as well, I totally still believe it. And I wrote a song quite early on, probably my relationship, anyway, called I like it when you're got, based on that, exactly what you were saying.

Yeah. Essentially, like, we did all these lovely things together, but actually I also really like it when you're gone. Yeah. Like that's okay. But again, it's like admitting to ourselves the realities. We're not allowed to say some of these things because like, you know, if you're around a dinner party

with your, say, previous husband, and you're like, oh, I love it when Mark leaves the house. I'm like, oh, God, what? You can't say that. Yeah. He wasn't called Mark, would he? He was not. That was good.

Because otherwise I'd have been a creepy prediction. Yeah, that sounds like a fascinating song. Yeah, it's quite good. It reminds me a bit of, the Beach Boys song about like I may not always love you being the first line and it's obviously a beautiful romantic song that loads people tune into but it's quite a kicker for a first line but it's true this might not be forever so like let's lock into it yeah so how do you do romance now when was your last kiss oh a fair month ago

what was it like it was textbook That's a perfect and be good word because to me, textbook could mean so many different things. In football, if you say, oh, that's a textbook finish or something, that would be like a really good finish. Yeah, they say, oh. But text could also be, oh, like, you know, get the old French textbook out, blah, blah, blah, but very boring, la, la, la. So you mean it in the latter one. A bit dull? Um, kissing is strange, isn't it?

Because it's very... I think that's very important, right? Kissy? Yeah. It's like immediately either putting a wall up on the next stage or... I don't know, I feel like when we were younger we forgave bad kissing, but I don't feel like that's possible anymore.

So, yeah, probably, wasn't as exciting as I was hoping for it today. I think I have had some good kissing, but overall I, my kissing situation has been. What, in your life? Yeah, there's been some good, but I wouldn't say there's been as- But predominantly not great?

No, no, not. Do you want to give a percentage? Bad kissing, give you a line. I feel like I'm just gonna like keep on pumping out that it's not like the movies line. But I think I always had an expectation that would be like, the moment, the spark, the tch, that I think as well, because I'm English, there's a lot of alcohol involved and, you know, it's hard to meet somebody and like, you know, kiss them.

I mean, do you think you've been in love? Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to trigger you. I did have a thing with somebody who was with somebody else. I think maybe in retrospect I thought I was in love with him because it was safer. I don't know. Sounds terrible.

So this was an affair? Well, I wasn't having an affair. But he was. He was. He was. With you. I thought I was in love. I think I was in love with the idea because it was so disconnected from reality.

Sounds like your absolute dream. Yeah. It's bad, isn't it? No, but I think that's, I mean, again, it relates to what you're like. Yeah. So how long did that, Lowe's? Oh, maybe about eight months. But it got dramatic.

Can't say more? It's weird. He said a load of things, but they turned out to be a lie. To you? Yeah, to everyone. And then, you know, the wife found out, and then it was all exploded. So what was the lie he told you? Oh, he told me that he wasn't really in that relationship anymore,

that he lived separately. and that it was a complete done deal. I did meet his friends and I did like, we did sort of be a bit of a couple together. We went away together, but like, I don't know, the lies who was peddling just sound exhausting. And when I found out, I was like, oh, yeah, that's boring. But again, I think it was easy to be in love in those situations,

like Joan Bakewell. He didn't get me in my own flat though. She managed to get it out of Pinta. You know what? I didn't finish the thought actually. Yeah. You know you said about everyone had a right to keep secrets? Yes.

Which I agree with and I like the sentiment of. Even though I'm quite nosy and like to find out things, right? In terms of obeying his wishes, your dad, his wish was, get rid of these papers. You did that. Good job. High five from dad, etc. But I think now that he's dead, I think it's fine to be like,

okay, well, I want to find out more stuff. I want to maybe go through some of this study. You want to see what his writing is there. See what you can find. Yeah. I find it very difficult going through his stuff, I think, not because of the bin bags, because, I don't know.

It's hard, isn't it? I don't know what you found with your dad, but, yeah. In theory, like, he, he, I interviewed loads of people. Okay. So there's loads of recordings of him. So a bit like you.

There's stacks and stacks and stacks of cassettes of like interviewing celebrities and stuff. But I haven't played a single one. I even bought myself like a cassette player. Because, I don't know, the disconnect from like, what I really want is new words to hear. But plot twist, they're walking. be new. Yeah, they'll be new to me. In a weird way, because actually there won't be, like,

it won't be reflecting on his own depth, but it actually will be new perspectives, new insights, or even if it's just a kind of odd spark, even if it's just something that's just like spurs you onto some kind of meaning. Yeah. Seems like you're a bit of you're in a meaning crossroad. I think so, yeah. I think that's fair. Which I think is actually also a great position to be in. So what are the options? Let's go through it. So you're reading a lot about impermanence. That's not going to change anything about your embellance. No, it just makes me supposedly live life in real time in the present. Yeah, you said about volunteering.

Yeah, so I'm volunteering. At this place called The Listening Place, have you heard of it? No. It's a bit like a Samaritans, but it's only face-to-face. Okay. So people come who have suicidal thoughts of all different levels. So I started training with them in the beginning of the year, and it's like a seven-week training thing

and I turned up being like, you're welcome, and the calibre of people were absolutely amazing like therapists and lawyers and stuff and I was like, oh. And obviously the training was very robust loads of role plays, which I find quite excruciating.

Yeah, I would be on your team there. Yeah. Were you having to be the, like, were you receiving the role playing or you have to do the role playing yourself? No, they had like proper people pretending to be their suicidal people. And then like all the people would critique you and I was, you know, like the first one I had, you know, like heart in my throat.

Like almost panicked. I was like, I don't know how to human in any way. And then like loads of people didn't get through as well. So then it became like almost like an X-fact thing. I was waiting for the call and anyway. So I've been doing that, you have to commit to once a fortnight and I go into this office and there's all other volunteers and then you speak to people and it's absolutely amazing. The people I speak to only speak to me like once a fortnight. so you could build a relationship with them. But, I mean, you will know all about this.

But it's kind of fascinating. As I have done to you, people just come in and tell you all about their lives and why they're feeling the way they're feeling. But it's been very rewarding, I think, and really hard. People have really tough lives. It's breathtaking sometimes. And we're there to support, not to solve.

So we don't give advice in any way. But it's amazing how many people don't really have anyone that's listening to them in life. And listening has become a very rare thing because of the lives we live. We're all so distracted. It's totally socially acceptable for one of us to start picking up our phone and typing out while half talking and all that kind of stuff. And it's actually taken a huge amount away from community and people feeling heard in any way. I found it very valuable so far and also amazed by what people share

and how sad they are It's very sad Um Didn't actually Again there's lots of things we haven't probably finished Like you're a fair story We didn't really like you'd be I don't feel great about that story

You don't feel great because it reflects on you I think so yeah No but I don't look I mean I mean, as you said at the start, the onus is on the person having the affair from someone else. And it sounds like he did lie to you. He did. Was the end dramatic? Did she find out?

Yeah. How did she find out? Uh, how did she find her? It got to a point where the police were wrong. I can't remember. Oh, hello. I don't know how, not by me, but I don't remember how. No, Popeau got involved.

The rosas. What'd you like to call the police? What's your favourite police pet name? We do save popo. Yeah, that was very bad for my whole nervous system. I felt very discombobulated by it all. It was horrible. And I did think it felt easier to think I was like in love with that situation

because it felt like not attainable. So I think sometimes that can make the, what would it be? Dopamine? like endorphins, whatever, I can keep that going, can't it? And like, as I've previously said, somebody who's books in to go to the British Library to read, but letters between people having affairs, it's not probably that great. But it seems like in literature and everything, sometimes those ideas of can't quite make it, like Roman and Juliet type things, all these sort of imbalances make it almost more romantic.

I'm not saying it was like Roman Jone yet, but you know what I mean? if I'd have just met him and I you know we were both in the same place probably wouldn't have felt those things that I thought I felt thank you universe for like tapping me out of it yeah so how did it he sent me photos of his head bleeding she'd apparently attacked with the iron or something yeah but oh Yeah, that did, and then the police were called. But then they went on holiday and I think he bought her some stuff. I don't know.

He seemed to be able to pacify the situation. But then I think on reflection he was a compulsive liar. You got a photo, you got a message with a bleeding head. See, I mean, that could have been a fucking lie, you know. And the bleeding head said anything with it? It said, like, I can't be with you because my head's bleeding. So she's found out. But at that point, I was kind of like, why is she so bad?

I thought you broke off ages ago. Oh, of course. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it's interesting now, I think, being in those sort of chaotic relationships because I do you think, like, your nervous system is such disarray, you can't see straight. Yeah. So instead of just being like, well, let's start from the beginning,

because you said that she knew and you're like, let's react to this, what's currently happening. Yeah, yeah. What the fuck? Especially when it's like a bleeding head in your messages. And I remember going to the pub

with my sister and drinking, we drank like, I think I had four bottles of wine and I think I drank like the massive percentage of that. Four bottles of wine, that's good going. I know. And the lies

was so creative. and so backed up, it does make you question yourself. Again, I feel like it's almost fascinating now in retrospect, it's like a fascinating essay into how people can behave, but at the time it was very, very distressing. Yeah. And it was very turbulent. That's the closest, like when people talk about being in abusive relationships,

that's the closest example I can have of something that makes you feel. makes you feel a bit wild. So would you do it again? Like having a affair with a married person? Yeah. Uh, I would like to say no. But I would like to say no to that. Yeah, I would like to...

I would like to say no. I would hope that I wouldn't. I mean, I certainly wouldn't seek it out in any way. I think I'm just a lot calmer now. Yeah. How do you meet potential lovers these days? I don't really. What happened to this textbook kiss at the other day?

That was somebody I do, I do know from work. I don't know. I don't meet anybody like that. Oh. Well, that mean you just don't try? I don't date, no. I don't date, no. All right. At the moment, I don't.

Because? My last boyfriend, we broke up like two years ago. I met on a app and seemed pretty damn perfect. And it kind of was, but then he told me that he liked to also have sex with men. But that was really into our relationship. And that, I can safely say it kind of fucked me up. made me question my own abilities to read that room and my own judgment and stuff like that. Oh, so he was always having sex with men?

Or he wanted to have sex? He was not, and he said he wanted. He gave me a bizarre level of detail, but he didn't want a romantic relationship with man. I don't know. I tried for a couple of months, but... So after he said that? Yeah. But then suddenly you just, you were seeing everything through a different lens.

Yeah. I felt like he might just be gay. And I just wondered, well, I strongly thought that perhaps I was just like a pawn in this sort of, I need to present a girlfriend, but actually that was his instinct. I mean, again, that's been happening forever. I know. And it's unfortunate to be the person on the other end. Yeah, and it was kind of mind-blowing and it was also, yeah, that was a real sucker punch and it hurt a lot. And again, like I said, I think there was a lot of self-blame.

and I sort of beat myself up quite a lot on that one. So yeah, that was my last relationship. That'd been some funny ones, isn't there in your life? Oh gosh, I know. Do you have a good wedding day? Is that a fun? No. It's a weird thing to do. To get married?

To have a wedding. Is it? Yeah, because it's like you do all this weird shit, like people watch you write in a book and cut a cake and stuff. It's just a weird, it's like accepted that all these people almost like queue up and photo, hierarchy doing things than I normally wouldn't care less about. It's just a very... What was the one of those on your wedding date which you really did bother you? The first dance. Oh god.

And all the weird speech, yeah, I mean... You say weird speeches? Well, the speeches, I mean it's a weird thing we've got ourselves into, isn't it? With the whole like, this is what a wedding is. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you can say it about society. Yeah. Weird thing we've got ourselves into. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing we've got ourselves into. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, so the dance was especially difficult. What was the song? The Smiths.

What is your song? Please, please, please. Oh yeah. Well, let me get what I want? Yeah. That's interesting first dance song choice. Yes, it's not hugely romantic. And longing after something that he's not got, though?

Yeah. Well, weirdly, like, my ex-husband is Morrissey's cousin. He wasn't at the wedding No, a plot twist We had a fondness for the Smith as a couple And it found nice, it was a nice song And it was short It's really short, it's like what, minute of course you or something?

Yeah, because I want to be out there for ages It's a short song without actually quite a lot It projected like, let's shut this shit down quickly Let's get out of it, blinking your message, guys Yeah, I just found I found the whole thing quite an out-outed experience It is a very strange thing Just to have your wedding dress

Being a bride. No, I sold it actually. Weirdly, I put it on Vinted for years. It's been on there and it sold the day my dad died. No. And the person that bought it just bought it outright, didn't ask any questions. I've been, like, dicked about for years with people being like, can you photograph this closer or can you measure this and blah blah? And they just bought it.

Yeah. That's curious, isn't it? It was very strange. Did you know anything about them? No. Can I ask, you know, really basic B question here, but like how much did you sell it for? How much should you pay for it? I bought it for like about 1,400 and it was, but then it was like,

is that quite reasonable? That's reason. That's reasonable. For people spending stuff on the wedding dress. Yeah. And then sold it for something like 190. Oh yeah. What do you do with the 190 pounds?

I feel like some amounts of money are more meaningful than others. Yeah, that's true. Well, one of my friends at my wedding, he threw a whole hundred and whole bloody glass of red wine over it. So it cost me £100 and then get it dry, cleaned. And I don't know why that's stuck in my head so much, because I was like, I'm 100 quid down, even though it cost me $40,000.

I know. It's like dicking about on the dance floor. Shit. Yeah. His behaviour was appalling. Oh, no. He broke into the kitchen and tried to snog a waitress, and his wife burst into tears.

And she was found, like, in the library crying. It was like a cludeau. Yeah. Where'd you get married? Which library were you talking about? It was like this like manor house, but they had like a blithy bar thing. He went nuts. You think maybe he felt like he had to do it to save you?

Well, like, look at this over here. Because otherwise they all would have been talking about how, like, Zadji looked at the prospect of being married to someone. That first dance, she didn't look right. Quick, James, get in there. Snog someone in the library. His name is James. Is it?

Yeah. That's amazing. We had to get one at some point. Yeah, exactly. You failed with Mark, but you got there in the end with James. I knew what I'd get there with James. He would come good. And then like somebody...

Classic James. And then they like, some poor waitress, like, made a complaint about him. And then he stole a bottle of gin. And then apparently smashed it against a wall. I mean... Yeah. He, like, lost his mind. And then my dad, like, went for, like, a pride and prejudice type Mr. Bennett walk in the morning of like,

I've married off my second daughter type thing. and wanted to get some fresh air, and he saw James' wife leaving at 7am. Trying to sneak off before the crowds came down for breakfast. Of course. Apparently she had a face like thunder. I can understand why? Yeah.

I mean, it begs the question, was it a complete surprise to behaviour? Are you cited to blame for inviting here? You have levels of what... I think I probably saw it from a point of view as I would have loved to be a fellow guest and see James be or James about it, But I actually probably did make an error inviting him.

And then at some point you realised it was your own wedding. Yeah, and that wasn't funny. I'm thinking about arcs here because I really want to make sure I've got good conclusions to some stuff here before we part ways. Okay. I suppose what we need to kind of work out is your meaning. My meaning of my life? Yeah, you know, because we said you're at a meaning crossroads. We talked about volunteering and then, I don't know if there's anything we're left in terms of any other great options available to you

or like what you think you might want to do with your time left here on earth. Yeah, well, what I've noticed in this since dad died and since getting this lump of money. Yes. Not dad's money. I haven't got any dad's money. Put it in the black bin back. Yeah, shit. That would be good. It was money.

It was money. Amazing. That would be incredible. So, redundancy money. So, yeah, it landed on this day, and then I looked at the amount. And then I had, like, a moment where I realised, oh my gosh. This is the most money I've ever had, ever given to me a lump sum. Like, and that was my first thought.

The cliche, it doesn't make you happy. Because it felt like it could have been half that amount or twice that amount. And the flatline feeling would have been the same feeling of just, oh. So anyway, that's a long-winded way of saying. I've realised that obviously that doesn't make you happy. It's great to have no money worries, but having lots of it certainly doesn't equal happiness. And with dad dying and changing my career and stuff, I also hope to keep on trying to be present.

grateful and enjoyed life. Like I came here today just because I had written something in the morning. So like doing bits of freelance work and I just thought, oh, it's a really nice sunny day. And I might just go out and drink a Diet Coke and read my book. The second half. And then weirdly started, this girl was sitting on this bench and then a bee or something went on her. So she went like nuts.

And I was just walking past and then she threw her bag everywhere and stuff and I was like, oh, you're okay. And then we started chatting for a bit. And then she almost hated the bench because it had been the place of a bee. Yeah. And then I sat down and started looking at this plaque and thought, oh, I'll look up this poor boy. And weirdly, I for some reason, because he's young, I thought, I wonder if he's killed himself because of all this work I'm doing at the moment.

And then you came along. I don't quite know what I'm trying to say. I guess being open. A bee can change anybody's day. Yeah. I think he's all you're saying. Yeah. I think probably if like maybe if you just spoken to me,

a year and a half ago, I can honestly say, if you'd have asked me this, I'd have said no. Oh really? Yeah. As in to talk, you wouldn't even talk? I think if you'd have said I'm doing a podcast, my mind would have just gone, oh, that sounds scary and embarrassing and what are all the consequences of this? That's progressive, I suppose. Yeah, exactly.

Or something. Yeah, so I guess just being, yeah, more open to things. My life looks very different now than it did a couple years ago. I suppose it's kind of in a weird way We would be at a meaning to crossroads forever I just think it's actually quite a good space to be To be constantly thinking I actually know what is going to bring meaning to my life

What can I do with my days that brings happiness It's a great position to be in Yeah That you have the time to do that And it's okay never to know I suppose Even which way Yeah Just float about

Yeah And I've also tried to just get a grasp on how happiness is just such an inside job. Going back to the original start of the conversation with the mum and dad situation, what he said to the doctors versus what I saw, sometimes we like to present as these are all the reasons where I'm happy.

I've got this lovely house and I've got this family and I've got this, blah, blah. But really, I saw, I had an insight into something different. Although that was really hard and it's really, like, at some point it's quite mess with my idea of what I thought was real. it's also given me like, yeah, don't have like one narrative and then actually in reality it'd be different, I think. And it says, I really like the idea that when you say life is not a movie, what you can also say is it's way more exciting.

Yeah. Yeah, no movie would have all these like many concurrent threads of possibilities because it'll be a plot that is not possible to follow. Yeah. And actually, in a way, that line can mean a different thing. Yeah. Big life, big times. There's a last question I asked, but before that I'll do one question. Because I've been reading a book about versions of what this person thinks an afterlife could look like. And as I said, I should ask a bench person.

What a ritual, one? If there were to be an afterlife, what would you like to look like? Oh, gosh. Might as easy question. I guess more of a feeling, I suppose. I don't think it would be like a life like this. So I'm imagining it as your soul staying somewhere. And I would like it to be content, great.

calming sensation with an insight into the people that you love feeling the same. Yeah, I suppose when I think about Dad, like I feel like, you know, our energy, you know, like when you walk into a room and there's been a row there, but the people that aren't rowing aren't there anymore, but you still feel like the energy is off. I feel like it'll be nice to have somewhere where like your stuff, like you're somewhere where, like your stuff, you're still, you're not rowing aren't there anymore, but you still feel like, you're still feel like the energy is off. I feel like it'll be nice to have somewhere where your soul is kept with the bright energy, I think. It seems baffling that people can just die and then that's that. So I do sort of hope that in us and like in the house and stuff I feel like sometimes some sort of spark of him there, like a warmth. Is that a very complicated answer, sorry. It's a really good answer.

Oh, okay. I like that. I've been to a lot of parks for instance, doing this, so many parks. And some have really peculiar energy. Some don't. You're like, why? And there's no real explaining it, right? It's just like, it's like, well, we can't know for sure.

And you just think maybe that is connected to the energy of the souls that have been there in the past. Yeah. Over the last, however many thousands of years. Yeah. You know, I like the idea that they all contribute to the atmosphere somehow, of where we are. Yeah. So your dad literally, you know, co-created you.

So, you know, some of his energy is in you. But also, some of his energy is just anyone who he's ever met. But hopefully that was something good and they pass. You know, it's just like energy bouncing. So if you think of how much energy, you know, in 77 years of living, your dad's put about the place, that's a lot of this energy babies everywhere, isn't it? Yeah. God knows what they all do.

But they're all there. Yeah, I totally agree. I think we all instinctively as humans have this ability to pick up on things that we can't really articulate. Okay, well, if we've reached the last question. Do you know anything you need to say before the last question? No. One of my fears is that it might sound like a terrible person. I think people, I think, but I don't believe in that as a concept. And I think the best human beings, also don't like don't listen to someone go oh terrible person look honestly everything is a mirror right so if someone thinks you're a terrible person it means that something you have said has reflected on their particular life

and their situation that's triggered them into believing you're a terrible person I like that's good but really it's like some of those truths are like a little bit complex yeah in terms of the general societal norms yeah and so maybe that makes you feel a bit wary but you shouldn't do that A lot of what you may think people may be critical of are things that actually are very human. Yeah. I think. Yeah.

You know, you've been really honest and that's been great. Oh, good. It's honesty which makes the difference. Yeah. Okay, so you ready for this last question? I think so, yes. Oh, fuck. I just realised something.

Yeah. I never asked you the first question. Oh, that's quite funny. Yeah. I feel like I'm just for the completing. I'm going to do this. Okay. What is your favourite day of the week?

At the moment, like, every day, every day. All right. Okay, so now we know. We now have a kind of sliding doors moment of what that would have been, initially, my very first question to you, but it wasn't. Okay, sure.

And then what would have happened from that? Probably the same conversation. Yeah. Anyway, now the last question, which is, what are you going to do next? Well, today. I'm going to my mate tonight

and let's have her new flat. And then I might, in a little bit more long-term thing, is I am seeing my mum this weekend. She has told me that she's going to save watching casualty when I come. So she's still on the whole TV watching thing, with a birthday. Saving casualty up? We like to watch it together, but we haven't done that for a long time. How, would she watch it casually when you were dead back?

No, but weirdly, even though my dad was in hospital and it was like absolute hell. She still watched casualty while he was, like, ill. Okay. But you're going to see her for the... I'm going to see her on Sunday and I might actually really strongly consider what you said about asking her about how she was towards the end. Or maybe about the bin bags, I don't know. And I think having seen Dad die so incredibly quickly, maybe I should start asking her some things about her life as well. Yeah, you can do it.

Yeah, exactly. There you go. You've inspired me. But that's really good. grateful for that even to like listen to her more and not just assume that she's as caricature yeah good luck with mother thank you and the bin bags thank you and you know if you ever find out that the bid please let me know I'll search around to be my legacy maybe maybe yeah yeah but hope it was what it was well thank you very much thank you what he keeps I'll never inside the room

poor love like to watch she so Battle years a sea