#STRask - Can We Ever Really Know What Scripture Says on Controversial Topics?

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

Questions about how to respond to a pro-LGBTQ pastor who says we can’t really know what Scripture says about homosexuality or other controversial topics since we’re not apostles or prophets, and how to understand and apply prophetic books of the Bible like Jeremiah and Ezekiel.   How can I respond to a pro-LGBTQ pastor who says we can’t really know what Scripture says about homosexuality or other controversial topics since we’re not apostles or prophets? How do I study the prophetic books of the Bible? I’m struggling to understand—let alone apply—books like Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

Welcome to the hashtag SDRSk podcast. Greg, we are going to start today with a question from Jonathan. All right. After telling a pro-LGBQ pastor what the Bible says about homosexuality, he said we cannot really know what scripture says on this and similar controversial topics as we are not apostles or prophets. How can I respond? Well, this is kind of taking a roof up that comes to mind.

Of course, I think it's fair to ask for more clarification. And maybe what I would say in that request is I say, I'm really confused. You're a pastor, right? You're not a prophet or apostle, right? Do you use the Bible? Yes. How is it? Explain to me what you just said and how it applies to you as a pastor in light of the text.

So that's asked for a request of clarification. is also taking the roof off because I'm trying to help him to see how this isn't going to work because there's hardly anything that's significant in the New Testament, for example, that is not controversial, theoretically, to some people. Everything's controversial. Salvation by Grace alone, that's controversial. The Council of Trent in the 16th century anathematized anyone, a Catholic council, anathematized anyone who thought you're saved by faith alone. That's controversial. The Trinity is

controversial. We've had discussions on this program about that. What's not controversial in Scripture? And so to be dismissive of certain controversial things, especially when he, oh, I was just going to think, especially when he has a stake, you know, in it, that sounds suspicious. But it just occurred to me. This is why I was stumbling a moment ago. It occurred to me. If you can't weigh in on this, you can't weigh in against or for it. Right. You can't say it's okay either. You're not an apostle. You're not a prophet. But isn't it curious, the apostles and prophets wrote things down. Why? For other people who weren't apostles and prophets to understand. Right? So the things that we have are things that they wrote down for our understanding. They weren't talking to each other,

and Paul wasn't writing to Peter, hey, Peter, you're an apostle, I'm an apostle, here's the inside scoop. I know you know what I'm talking about. All these other people reading it, they're out to lunch there, or they don't got it. They can't follow the high theology that we're capable of talking to. It wasn't, no, he wrote, Paul wrote to the Corinthians, and he wrote to Galatian region, and he wrote to the Romans, and he wrote to, you know, he wrote Timothy and he want to, you know, it's just finally. So these were all things written by those people in authority that were offered to us for our understanding. It was written in Coyne Greek, which was the common Greek, not the Attic Greek, the High Greek, the academic Greek,

was just an ordinary language of the people, which means it's for the ordinary person. And to be just, it just strikes me as to be, you know, waving the hand here, pardon me, and dismissing this is, oh, that, oh, you can't weigh in against homosexual. I know what those verses are saying, but we're, we're out of the loop. We're not apostles. So we can't know when Paul says, do not be deceived, neither homosexuals nor effeminate, no, fornicators, no adulterals will inherit the kingdom of God. That's a mystery to me what that means. who knows? Now, I'm joking, and that is what it says in 1st Corinthians 6, verse 9, and following. Now, it doesn't just, Paul doesn't just single out sexual sins, but that's where he starts. There's a lot of other sins there, too. And somebody wants to invade against us, maybe this pastor, you know, Jesus said not to judge. My question would be, pastor, are you a prophet?

Are you Jesus? Are you an apostle? How do you know what he means? there. It's so self-serving. So I would ask her clarification. Could you spell this out? And the reason we want to spell it out, sometimes I think people are a little mystified. If we're witnessing to them, we want them to do more talking. Why are we asking what do you mean by that in various forms? And that's what I'm offering here, because I'm convinced if their view is false, which this one is not just false. It's silly. Pardon me, but it is. I wouldn't say that to him directly, but I'm just saying,

it's, it's, it's, I think you can see from what I've said so far. It's goofy. But I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm asking the questions because the more that they talk, especially in response to the specific questions I ask, the bigger the whole is they're digging for themselves. And it will be easier in a certain sense to nudge them into it because I want them to see the foolishness of this response. Now, my suspicion for Jonathan, Jonathan, my suspicion is he doesn't care about that. My suspicion is he has a point of view, and he is committed to sticking to it regardless of what the text actually says and means. We know what it says. He can read it. But he's thinking, oh, you can't know what it means because we don't have apostolic credentials. Oh, please. But at the same time, I would also say, to me,

there's a sense here of conviction because not as in conviction as in my strongly held beliefs about something, but in terms of seeing that what this person said about what the Bible says actually got to him because he didn't say, no, you're wrong, look at where it says this that, what he said was, oh, we just can't know. So something that Jonathan You said actually got through to him and he was rattled. That's what it sounds to me like he was rattled. He wasn't ready for that. Now, it does surprise me a little bit that a pastor hasn't heard these arguments before, but it can happen. A pro-gay pastor, is what you mean? Like a... Yeah, somebody who is teaching that the Bible says this is fine.

Right. But I would say, I think that's actually a good sign that he says we can't know. And then you can press him on this. For one thing, if we can't understand what the apostles and prophets wrote down then, I don't know how we could understand what they write down now. Why can we understand it better now if an apostle of prophet says it than if they said it then? You're right, Greg. It just doesn't make sense.

And I think he's obviously grasping at straws here. And that's why I say, I think that you actually, I think he actually heard what you said because he didn't try to refute you. He didn't offer pro-gay theology to rebut what you said. And that is a standard move. It's the cultural distance argument that's not that kind of homosexuality. These are loving relationships that we're talking about here, et cetera, et cetera. And of course, that isn't the qualification that Paul makes in any of the text. He doesn't say, you know, adultery is wrong, unless you really love each other and you're kind to each other.

and you're kind to each other, you know. It's the activity that's wrong in adultery and also in fornication and homosexuality. That's what's condemned, the behavior. So, yeah, maybe you did get through to him a little bit, Jonathan. I don't know. But I would draw that out in a tactical sense, get more information, and then play it back to him. And with, you know, see what he thinks. But he is clearly expressing a view.

If you're saying he's pro-LGBQ, that means he's expressed his view. Yeah. So I think that's the best place to go there and say, but you're expressing a view. Uh-huh. And you're not a prophet or an apostle. So on what basis are you doing that? That's great. Yeah.

All right. Let's go to a question from Josh. How do I study the prophetic books of the Bible? I understand the goal is to read the Bible as a cohesive whole, but I'm struggling to understand, let alone apply books like Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Well, okay, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, along with Daniel, and let's just drop back and take a big picture look. And I'd like to recommend the Bible fast forward as a help here, because what that teaching tool or series that's available on our website at SCR.org provides is a panoramic view of how you get from the fall to Jesus. through the nation of Israel. I never could put it that way before.

That's what it amounts to. And these three books, you mentioned Ezekiel and Jeremiah, but also Lamentations and Daniel. So Lamentations is like attached, that's also by Ezekiel, where he's lamenting. But that which a lot of prophetic content are the three, those three authors, they come at a very specific point in time.

And the time that they come is in 4806, when the, it's that period when the Babylon, the, the Babylonian captivity starts. They are attacked in Jerusalem by Babylon. The northern kingdom of Israel is gone, but 250 years earlier. The Assyrians disperse them. They're not there anymore. Now all you have left of God's people, the Hebrews are Judah and Jerusalem, and then they are attacked and they're carried away to Babylon.

And Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Daniel are books that are meant to be an encouragement to Judah during this time of deportation, that God hasn't given up on them, that there's a new covenant coming. Ezekiel talks about the giving of the spirit. For example, Daniel said that what Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 29 in the oft distorted chapter, that there's going to be captivity for 70 years. Daniel says now as an old man, because he is one of the first to be deported. Now his life is—he realizes 70 years are over, and now he's praying that the response or the return, and he's by proxy—he's by proxy praying for the nation of Israel and repenting for Israel,

as a word, to initiate the process. The point of making is these three books, for example, I mean, you meant a lot of the prophets, and you just use these two as an example, but these three books represent a response by God to the Jews in a very particular period of time in light of the prior covenant. Even where in that verse like Jeremiah 29-11, where Jeremiah says, I will fulfill my good word to you for I know the plans that I have for you, says the Lord, he's talking about Deuteronomy 30. I found the passage. And this was written a thousand years or something before that in your favorite book, Deuteronomy. And the Old Testament. In the Old Testament.

I know which one's favorite in the New Testament, Philemon, right? Third John. Everyone knows my favorite point in the New Testament. Well, it's a good one to have Book of Romans as a favorite. But in any event, the – so when you – the broader point here is that when you read these prophets, you have to read them in the context of – They're the circumstances in which those prophets spoke and to whom they spoke. Different prophets spoke to, like Jeremiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel, they spoke kind of to the remnant that was left from the Southern Kingdom, especially Daniel, to those that are still in captivity.

Daniel's there with him. And you also have, you know, Isaiah speaking to the Northern Kingdom, or Elijah, I should say, and Isaiah, too. So you've got these different, well, Elijah doesn't have his own book, but you have these different, how you can find this out? You've got to get a book that tells you. You're not going to get it by reading the text thousands of years later because they are all, each of the prophets is speaking into a very precise and specific historical circumstance. And the more that you understand about that historical circumstance, excuse me, the more that you're going to see what is appropriate to, apply to your own life from the text. Not everything there is. Christians routinely read these passages like Jeremiah 29-11 and following, and they apply them to their life as if they're a discrete promised for believers, that little couplet there that they quote, when it's not. It was something specifically spoken to the Jews. And actually, it wasn't even a promise to anybody that was alive then, pretty much. It was a promise to those who would be a life.

70 years later. So you know that in part by just reading the passage. In Jeremiah 29, start in verse one and keep going to the end that you're going to get, oh, that's what this is about. And it'll be a mind-blower to a lot of people, but the same thing is true with all the rest of the books. But much of the time, you're not going to really understand the situational life, what the sits in Liban or whatever the theologians call it, because it's, you don't have that information. You've got to get that from outside sources who have got the background. And what they'll do is they'll correlate with First Kings and Second Kings and First Chronicles and Second Chronicles the circumstances of the flow of the history of Israel with the prophets who spoke into a portion

of that history. You can get any Bible commentary. I'm not going to recommend one now for that, like book by book. And there's other tools. We've talked about Logos is a fabulous tool. It costs a bit, but it's if you're serious about your study, it's a great tool to have. You know, just the, and I know you have a little bit of concern about some things, but I don't think most people are going to see this, the Bible Project. And I have gone to Bible Project when I'm starting to read a book in the Old Testament. I'll just look at the overview they do with the graphic and explanation. I think many of those things are really. really good. Unless you want to just say, now, don't go there, but I know you have some concerns

about something. It's so funny you say that because some people have asked me about that lately. Yeah, I just have some problems. I think they've gotten some things factually wrong and their new digs, I think is questionable. Yeah. But I want to zoom out, I want to zoom out a little bit and give some like broader categories for things you can look for as you're reading the profits. And I would say one thing that will apply to you always is the character of God. So as you're reading, look for the character of God. And what you will see there is his justice, his wrath against sin, his truthfulness, what he cares about, his morality and his goodness. You'll see his grace towards Israel.

You'll see his mercy. You'll see that God's character and his faithfulness to his goodness. his promises. That applies to every situation. So let's say there's a promise he made to Israel specifically. I will take you out of Babylon and after 70 years. That's not a promise for us, but what we do see is that God fulfills his promises. Exactly. And that's something we came on to. I will fulfill my good word to you, yeah. So we know what his promises are to us today in the new covenant, and we can hold on to those knowing that he will fulfill those. So you look at, you look for what it says about God, and you also look for what it says about us, because what we

see in the prophets is the seriousness of our sin and the futility of trying to come to God by following the law perfectly. Legalism is impossible. If there's one thing you learn from all the prophets is that even having the law of God and having God is the head of their nation, they still failed. You know, Paul says that the law was there to be a tutor to lead us to Christ, and it does that by showing us our own sin and helping us realize that we need grace. You know, I'm reading through, I think I'm in First Kings now, but I was in First Samuel, then Second Samuel, then First, maybe I'm second Kings now. I'm not sure. But I keep reading this stuff, and this guy was worse than the one who came before him.

This next guy, he was worse than that guy. And the next guy, he was worse than that guy. And I write in the margin in pencil, idiots, knitwits. What are you thinking? Because God shows up in these radical ways and wipes people out and says, don't do that again. They go, okay, let's do it again. And what? And it's not because they're stupid.

It's because they love their sin. Yeah, yeah. That's the problem. And this is what you see. You see our situation. You see where we are. God was revealing the bad news over a very long period of time. And you see it in contrast with who God is.

So you see things about God. Look for things that teaches us about God. Look for things that teaches us about us. And look for things that teaches about Jesus, because you'll also see the predictions like Jeremiah 29 or 39. 29, 11. Oh, well, 29. The New Covenant passage.

31, 31. Okay. So you'll see Jesus foreshadowed and predicted, and you'll see your need for him. So all three of those categories, if you're looking for God, Jesus, us, see what you can find there and learn about our situation and who we are and who God is. And that will apply to everything now. And look at, here's the other thing. It shows us what we deserve. So it'll help us appreciate grace more because look at the wrath against the sin of God's people whom he loved. Look what he did for the sake of justice and look at what we deserve. And now we can see the gospel and grace even more clearly and be even more grateful for what God has done for us that we can get out of that constant. Paul says this and Peter says this. You know, we were constantly going astray, and now we're back to the great shepherd of the sheep. Now we've come back to him because God has saved us and given us his spirit and healed us from that constant pulling away from God and rejecting him and rebelling against him. I am amazed when I'm reading, and now I'm reading through Kings at God's patience.

I mean, Ahab was really bad, and he was married to Jezebel, and she was really, really, really bad. And yet, as I recall, God's about to lower the boom on Ahab. And then he said, I'm not going to do it on you. I'm going to do it on the next generation of your kids or something. But there was something Ahab did. It was just a marginal whatever. And God said, okay, I'll relent with that guy. And there are many, many occasions of this where God just forgives and relents on people who are really bad.

Look at Solomon. He had a great start, and he had a terrible end. Yet, for the sake of my servant, David, I am not going to visit my judgment on you. It'll be a subsequent generation and civil war. But what's interesting, it isn't like he's punishing the son for the sins of the father. He's just waiting for this to work out. And those guys, when they got judged, they got judged because they did really bad too. So it wasn't the innocent being judged.

but notice the mercy, okay, I'm just going to delay because of David. Oh, my goodness. People who talk about there being a difference between the God of the Old Testament, the New Testament, aren't really familiar with the Old Testament because there is grace upon grace. And remember, the Old Testament is covering a long period of time, a couple thousand years. So you would expect to see a lot of judgments and mercies throughout that whole time, whereas the New Testament only covers a short period of time, So you're not going to see that big picture of entire cultures being judged and things like that. Until you get to the end.

Then the bottom falls out. So both the Old Testament and the New Testament show a God of justice and a God of grace, which, of course, God proved on the cross ultimately. Right. All right. We're out of time, Greg. Thank you so much, Jonathan and Josh. And we'd love to hear from you. You can send us your question either on our website at STR.org or on X by using the hashtag STR Ask.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Amy Hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason.