#STRask - Did Jesus Lie in Mark 5:39?

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Questions about whether Jesus lied in Mark 5:39, proving that lying can’t be a sin, when he said, “The child has not died, but is asleep,” and what Jesus meant when he said we need to be “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5.   Jesus never sinned. Jesus lied in Mark 5:39. Therefore, lying can’t be a sin. What did Jesus mean by “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5?

Welcome to Stant Reason's hashtag SDRS podcast. I'm Amy Hall, and with me is Greg Kokel. Hello, Greg. The one not only Amy. I hope so. I hope there's not some crazy doppelganger out there. All right, enough of this silliness. Okay, this first question comes from Barb.

Jesus never sinned. Jesus lied, therefore lying can't be a sin. See Mark 539. Okay. So, Mark 539 is a passage where Jesus raises someone from the dead. All right. I'm trying to find with a context. there's a okay he said while he was still speaking they came from the house of the synagogue official saying your daughter has died why trouble the teacher anymore but Jesus overhearing what was being spoken said to the synagogue official do not be afraid any longer only believe and he allowed no one to accompany him except Peter and James and John the brother of James and they came to the house of the synagogue

official, and he saw commotion. People were loudly weeping and wailing. And entering in, he said to them, why make a commotion and weep the child has not died, but is asleep? And they began laughing at him, but putting them all out, he took along the child's father and mother and his own companions entered the room where the child was, taking the child by the hand, he said, Talitha Kum, which translated means little girl. I say, to you, get up. Immediately the girl got up and began to walk for, she was 12 years old, and immediately they were completely astounded.

He gave them strict orders that no one should know about this, and he said that something she would give her to eat. Now, there's a parallel passage in the Gospel of Luke, and Luke 8, that at the end of Luke 8 has the same account, but it adds to the point that. He took her by the hand, called her saying, child arise, and her spirit returned, and she got up immediately and gave orders for something to be given her to eat. So my take and looking at the whole passage is that this girl was dead. The spirit had departed, right?

And that's why the language in the Luke passage, why does Jesus make this statement, She is not dead, but she is only asleep. And I've had the same question myself that Barb is asking here. And so to read the passage charitably, instead of just presuming, oh, Jesus lied, but he didn't sin, so lying is not a sin. Well, we know it is because there's all kinds of other statements to the contrary. but this does raise the question of what was going on here. And I think the best way to understand it, again, to read it charitably, is that what Jesus is saying, remember sleep, the word sleep regarding a person who had died was a standard metaphor for death. And I think that when Jesus says she's only asleep, he is referring to the fact that people who are people who are,

were sleeping awake, and he was going to wake her up from the sleep of death. And so it's not permanent. You guys are all wailing as if this is like the end. I'm here. What's interesting to me about this is they're all wailing until he says, she's only asleep, and then they all start laughing hysterically. So how can you go from wailing over the death of someone? And then Jesus, who has done radically miraculous things in the past, and everybody knows it. That's why they called him and asked him to come, and he just healed the woman, but many years suffering from the issue, you know, touches his garment, et cetera. When they hear that the healer is going to heal her, she's going to, why would they say,

great, that's fabulous. Instead, they start laughing hysterically. Now, here's what I think is going on with that. all these people that are there wailing are they're not family members they're not even close to I think they are just professional mourners people that are meant to make a fuss at events like this and then when somebody says something well they're not mourning to begin with you they just turn to hysterical laughter that's so crazy all right but I think Jesus's point is no this is not over This isn't the end.

This isn't the final deal. And even when we know NDEs, the spirit does leave the body, we have remote viewing where a person's soul, a person who is his soul, departs from the body, which now is in repose, dead, looks around the room, moves to other places, and then comes back into the body, returns to the body, and then arises again. So the body can be dead without the spirit. Spirit is still around. And we just know that from NDE's, and the evidence is really good for that. So that would be a charitable way of understanding this, not that Jesus is just lying, but rather that he's referring to the fact that she is not dead for good.

She's just sleeping, sort of. Watch, and then he raises her spirit. Now give her something to eat, you know. So, I mean, that would be the way I would take that to try to take a charitable interpretation of that instead of just simply saying Jesus lied, so it's okay for all of us to lie. Yeah, I think he's saying she's not finally dead. I think you're right about that. And notice how by speaking figuratively, he reveals their hearts. They have no trust in him because they laugh at him. anyone who had any trust it.

No, isn't this the, is this the situation where the father, where they come and tell him that she's dead? And he says, just believe and come with me. And he does. Yeah. He doesn't laugh at Jesus. No. He trusts him. And obviously the father knows, the father's in this room too.

So the father is, if I'm in the right story here, the father knows he's been told she's dead. And Jesus said, don't worry, come with me. He's already kind of set the scene. He got the news while he was seeing Jesus, going after seeing Jesus. So there's a journey that was involved there, come heal my sick daughter. And then he said, don't bother the teacher anymore. She's dead. So he knows Jesus has heard all of that.

So I have a feeling he understands that Jesus understands and that he's not using this term in the sense that she's going to stay dead or that she's just sleeping. He knows she knows he's dead, that she's dead. but he is saying that she is going to wake up. I think that's what's going on here. And in fact, he does this again. I was just reading in John 11, he does this with Lazarus. And I listen to what he says.

He says, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go so that I may awaken him out of sleep. The disciples then said to him, Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover. Now, Jesus had spoken of his death. So clearly, Jesus is using the word sleep to refer to his death. And then it says, but they thought that he was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead. So here's a case where he was using that term figuratively, and it says, oh, but they thought he was talking about literal sleep. So clearly Jesus wasn't talking about literal sleep.

He was talking about figurative sleep. In other words, that he was going to wake him up out of death. Yeah, in this case, I mean, just to be fair to the text, something that would come back. Wait a minute. she said, the child has not died, but is asleep. And I think, again, so even with those words, a little different than Lazarus, obviously. Yeah. But the words are, I think, are meant to be understood.

She's not ultimately that. She's going to wake up from this death, all right? And that's what ends up happening. And I also like what you said. We know it's not the case that lying is not a sin because God said it is. it is a sin. And here's, here's something that I see sometimes people trying to triangulate God's position on something using all these other things when God has spoken plainly about that thing. When God has spoken plainly about something, you should take him at his word. Don't try to

work out from other random passages how something else could be true. Yeah. So that's, I think that's a danger of how to figure out what God wants from us. And then try to read passages like this charitably. you know, well, then what could, if Jesus isn't literally lying, what is he doing? How is he using the language in the circumstance here? And I think that's the best way to take that. And again, I think by using the figurative language, I think he is revealing their trust in him or their lack of trust in him just by saying the words. Are you going to trust Jesus that he's going to wake her up? Like the dad did? Yeah. Or are you going to laugh? Who is allowed to come into the room, by the way. I noticed that detail when I read it. He was allowed to come into the room

along with Peter, James, and John. And so it was a private session there. And it's interesting. He says, don't tell anybody. Of course, he already had enough press to keep him pressed. There's a little joke there, I guess. So he didn't need any more, but everybody, you know, the daughter came out. She was alive. So here's a question from Jeremy. What did Jesus mean? by Born of Water and the Spirit in John 3.5. All right. Well, this is one of those passages where it's helpful to read, pay attention to the flow of thought. So this is Jesus' conversation with the Pharisee named Nicodemus, who is a ruler of the Jews.

And he comes to Jesus by night and says to Jesus, hey, rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher for no one can do these. signs that you do unless God is with him. And then Jesus just jumps in. It seemed kind of harsh, actually, but truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again or born anew, let me just look at my marginal reference here. Let's see, unless one is born, verse three, sorry. Oh, here it is.

Born from above. Born from above. There's another alternate translation. unless someone is born anew or born from above. And just think of that alternate translation of minute because I do think it ties in here. Unless one is born again or from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now, Nicodemus is perplexed by this. What do you mean born? Born again? Born from above. And so Nicodemus says, how can a man be born when he's old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?

Okay, now this is really key to me about at least one legitimate way of understand this passage. Some people read this, well, let me keep going, and then I'll comment. Jesus answered, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, all right? So that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Now, it strikes me, I just read verse 5 to verse 6, water in the spirit, flesh, flesh, spirit, spirit, verse 6.

It seems to me such an obvious parallelism that the first kind of birth he's making reference to that is not adequate for salvation is physical birth. sometimes referred to as water, berth, breaking water, whatever. And the second kind is the spiritual birth, being born from above. That just seems so obvious to me. Now, it might be because the Greek word Kai, born by water and the spirit, Kai, and could also be translated even. So some commentators think, well, this means born of water, even the spirit.

So, in other words, born of flesh, that's not enough, but born of the spirit, okay, and water was a symbol in the Old Testament for the spirit. I think in Ezekiel, they actually used this in describing Ezekiel does, in describing the new covenant, which is the giving of the spirit, and water is used as a metaphor there. I don't have it in front of me, but, and this might be why Jesus is saying to the Pharisee, to Nicodemus, you're the teacher of Israel. You don't know what I'm talking about? How is it that you don't understand this? Because there it is Jeremiah 31 and 31 following, and then Ezekiel, what, 36 or so, there is discussion there by those two prophets about the new covenant that Nicodemus should have been cognizant of and then putting the pieces together.

So some people take this. You have to be born of water, i.e. baptism, and the spirit of, in order to be saved. I don't see this in there at all. I think it's importing a doctrine people have been convinced of for other reasons, and then, oh, this is what he's talking about here. Now, I understand Jesus is not following this after this conversation. There's baptisms that take place, but that doesn't mean that's what he's talking about here.

And we have counter examples in Acts 10, for example, where you have Cornelius, who receives the spirit just exactly as the apostles had prior to his own baptism and those that were with him in that room. And that's what Paul Peter says. He said, how can we withhold water from these men, which is a symbol of entry into the kingdom when they've already entered into the kingdom? They've received the spirit just as we have. So I think that the idea that water baptism is necessary for salvation, I think this is confused teaching. I think it's actually bad teaching. I mean, I know people who believe it. I'm not chastising them, but I'm just saying, as a doctrine, I think creates confusion. And this clearly, in my view, is not what's being

referred to here. I think probably the safest way to take it in context is that Jesus is saying physical birth is not enough. You have to be spiritually born. I mean, that would be the simplest way to put And water could be a reference to physical birth or could be a reference to a metaphor for spiritual birth. However, you take the water there. He's contrasting to natural birth and supernatural spiritual birth. And the second is absolutely necessary, or you cannot, as the way Jesus puts it, you cannot see the kingdom, verse three, or you cannot enter into the kingdom, verse five. So I think that is a totally legitimate possibility. And in fact, I'm going to offer, the possibility I'm going to offer is only slightly different from what you said.

In fact, it kind of goes along with what you were saying there at the end. But I think it's possible that spirit is referring to the physical birth. Or it could also be referring to the spiritual birth because... Wait, water, you mean? I'm sorry, did I say, yes, water, I'm sorry. And I say that because I do have the Ezekiel passage in front of me. So I just want to read this quickly. Ezekiel 36, 24 through 27 says, I will take you from the nations. And keep in mind, this is about the new covenant here.

Right. Because at this time, they're there in captivity of Babylon. So he's saying that he's going to do something new. He says, I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart. and put a new spirit within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will be careful to observe my ordinances. So there he says water and spirit. And this is a passage talking about what he's going to do in the new covenant. He's going to give them a heart of flesh. So this could just be a straight reference to this passage in Ezekiel about the new covenant. So either way, I think the main point is he's talking about the new birth that God has promised to give and the changing of the heart and the giving of the spirit.

And the necessity of it, the necessity of it, you know, that's really important too. Yeah, after you've read this passage, I was just going by memory, Ezekiel 36, there it is. And it mentions water and the spirit at least twice, and you could see the kinship there between them. It's not enough to be born physically. You need something else in order to enter or see or comprehend or be part of God's kingdom. You need a spiritual rebirth along the lines of the promise of the new covenant. So people have different views on – do you know of any other view that people have on the water and the spirit? I think those are the main things I've heard people say.

Mm-hmm. I just, but whatever it is, it's definitely, I do not think the view that this is water baptism is defensible from this passage. Well, thank you so much, Jeremy and Barb, we really appreciate hearing from you. So if you have a question that you've been wanting to ask, please send it in. You can go to X and use the hashtag STR Ask, or if you don't have an account on X, as many of you, I'm sure, don't. You can just go to our website at STR.org. And all you have to do is look for our. podcast section, go to hashtag S.ER. And you'll find a link there where you just click on that link to submit a question, write a couple sentences, and we will consider your question. And I keep them, Greg. I keep all of them. And sometimes I go back and I look for things that will fit in whatever thing we're doing that day. So don't give up. If you sent something in, I still have it. We haven't used it yet. And so never feel like it's just going out there and disappearing. because, you know, I love having a wide variety of questions.

So we really do look forward to hearing from you because you are the ones who make this podcast work. We couldn't do it without you. So thank you so much for listening. This is Amy Hall and Greg Coker for Stand to Reason.