#STRask - How Can God Lump Non-Criminals in with Murderers and Rapists?

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

Questions about what to say to someone who finds it hard to believe in a God that lumps non-criminals in with murderers and rapists when he sends them to Heaven or Hell, and whether all receive the same punishment in Hell.   What could you ask a non-believer who finds it hard to believe in a God that lumps non-criminals in with murderers and rapists when he sends them to Heaven or Hell? Do all receive the same punishment in Hell? Does Hitler receive the same eternal punishment as a Buddhist?

Welcome back. This is Amy, and I'm here with Greg, and we're here to answer your questions. And we're going to start with one from Fayette. Fine. I don't meet. What could you ask a non-believer who finds it hard to believe in a God that lumps non-criminals with murderers and rapists as far as who goes to heaven and hell? Well, a lot of things come to mind. This is true with a lot of questions. I mean, I just, a lot of things occur to me about questions like this. Here's the first thing that came to mind. What is the alternative? If there is no God, then rapists and criminals aren't bad. Now, this goes to the issue of the foundation for morality.

Morality, the nature of morality is obligation, that we ought to do certain things and ought not do other things. But obligations are by nature held between persons. And, oh, how do you know that? You know, I've had the question before. And I said, just think about it. Just reflect on it for a moment. That morality, when we say we shouldn't, then people kind of automatically, especially if they don't like to be squeezed by your moral viewpoint, they say, says who?

Who's to say? And notice that the pushback there kind of certainly affirms that in order for there to be an obligation, someone who is appropriate to the task has to be the one who says. So it's an intuitive notion. We understand this notion about morality. But now if you say there is no God for this reason regarding, say, evil people and folks apparently that aren't so evil, Well, then your alternative, and this is a question that should be asked all the time when people push back here. And the question is, what's the alternative?

Okay, let's say there is no God. Now, how do we make sense of what you just called evil by behavior of certain people? You can't say it's evil. You can say you don't like it. But if there's no grounding, if there's a land with no government, you can't say you are a, you're not a law-abiding citizen because there are no laws to abide to. It's a very simple concept, but it's one that I think people haven't thought about, but it's foundational.

So if there is no God, then there are no bad people or good people. They are people who do different things, and you may say you like it or you don't like it, but what you can't do is put it in moral categories, give it moral, qualifications or anything like that. So here's the first thing. Okay, let's say you're right. There is no God. Now, what happens in all these evil people?

There is no such thing as an evil person. That's what you're left with. The thing here is that there's no, and a lot of these things, there's no middle ground, Amy. It isn't like you could just, just, oh, I'm not going to believe that. That's silly. Well, then if you say that's wrong, that's false, that God exists. There's a whole bunch of other things that are entailed in that rejection of God, And that turns out to be an implicit rejection of morality, which is what you're complaining

about to begin with. So this has a self-refuting kind of element to it, but it's a little bit sophisticated, maybe a little hidden. So that's the first thing. The second thing is the assumption that there is a significant, in the big picture, in the long run, that there is a significant difference between the murderer and the average Joe. Now, certainly in one sense there is. We're looking at that because when we think of the average show, we're just thinking of the average sinner.

And much time, we don't even think of the average sinner as a sinner. Hey, they're a nice person. They said, have a nice day. They were pleasant to me, you know. Yeah, until you cross them. And that's the measure in the New Testament talks about that. It's easy to be nice to people who are nice to you. But when the people are not nice to you, now what?

Okay, so, and that's a measure. And if you think about one's entire life and all of the violations of what is good and right and true are tallied up, even the, you know, the basically good person is not going to qualify as basically good. They're basically bad. And so they all go. Okay, here's another thing then. given this concern, okay? If God doesn't do that, then what level of sin do you think it's appropriate for him to forgive and not to forgive?

In other words, he can forgive, I think this is true in most people's minds, that he can forgive all of their sin because they're not that bad. I'm no Hitler kind of thing, to which I say, good, one was enough. But you know Jesus Christ either. And we're all a lot more like Hitler than we are like Jesus. And so the standard that people are using in this case who's the good person, who's the bad person, is just a bad standard. It's a standard that is self-interested, makes us look good.

Really bad people are somehow that's a bit worse than we are, wherever we are on the scale. So what the gospel says, and Paul makes this clear in 1st or 2 Timothy, and what he says is, God saved me the greatest of sinners because I persecuted the people of God. And he did that partly to demonstrate that if he can save the worst, he could save the least as well. And this is the message. I know people have complained about this. I think I might have written about this once, or maybe did in a commentary about it, because it comes up. How could that be? The girl who is raped, who is not a Christian, goes to hell, and the one who raped or goes to heaven. Well, you're looking at a very, very small picture. You've got to look at the big picture.

The big picture is the wideness of God's mercy, to include everyone that would come to him from mercy, including the girl, including the rapist, everyone. And when we see the big picture, when the books are opened, and every idle word, as Jesus said, we will give account of on the day of judgment. Then we realize that a person may be innocent, an innocent victim with regards to a singular act, but they are not morally innocent with regards to their entire life. And that's what's pictured, or that's what's going to be the factor in the end when those books are open, which I call in the story of reality the books of death doesn't use that term, but they certainly result in people's eternal death if their names are not written in the book of life. So I am sympathetic, pardon me, I'm sympathetic to the complaint. and I can see why people will raise it, but it's only because they're myopic.

They're looking at a very tight, narrow thing, and they're not looking at the bigger picture of the Christian worldview and the Christian take on things. And in addition to that, they're not thinking of, okay, what's the alternative? If you reject God, then you've got all kinds of other problems with regards to you concerned about morality and bad people getting away with bad things. One thing, when I look at this question and this objection, I think what you can do is identify with them and agree with them that justice is important because I think that's at the root of what their complaint is. They want justice and they see this as being unjust. And as you explained, the reason why they see as unjust is because they don't really understand what the particulars are in Christian theology. So this is a totally understandable objection. And you can find common ground with them on that. So you could say, well, I really appreciate that you care about justice.

And what you want is a God of justice. But here's where your problems come in. And then you could go with the, if there's no God, there is no justice. There's no such thing as justice. There's no such thing as good or bad. But also, as you mentioned, Greg, where do you draw the line of God forgiving? If you don't have the Christian God, again, there will be no justice because either God will have to just sweep sin under the rug. So people who have sinned, and as you pointed out, we don't realize the depth of our sin, that God will just say, well, that doesn't matter.

That's not a God of justice. It's only, so either that or you have a God who doesn't care about justice. But if you have a God who cares about justice, then he has to punish all wrong. And this is the problem that we have. And this is why Christianity is the only religion where you can have anyone be forgiven and still maintain justice. So if he's looking for justice, this is the way to go. If you care about justice, then you want these sins to be. punished, and this is the only way you can have those sins punished and you still be forgiven.

So the reason why they're lumped in on either side, whether heaven or hell, is because Jesus is the only one who can pay for your sins. He's the only one who can ensure justice happens. So if you come to him, anyone who comes to him, then you will be lumped together and forgiven. If you reject him, anyone who rejects him, you will be lumped together and paying for your sins on your own. And because God's a God of justice, he can't ignore that. So I would identify with their desire for justice and just lean into that because if you want justice, Christianity is the only way to go. The way I like to put it is, and I like finding very kind of trim ways to get a point across, either Jesus pays or you pay. Either Jesus pays or you pay.

There is payment that's made because God is just. But that Jesus is available for payment shows God's mercy as well because we don't deserve that payment. And it might help if you want to help them understand their need for forgiveness. Talk about God being perfectly righteous and seeing everything. Imagine if a policeman was following you around on the road all the time and just riding down every little infraction that you, or big infraction that you do on the road. Like, would you be, would you be a little bit afraid if you knew a policeman was following you all the time? Well, now imagine a perfect God, a policeman at least is a fallen human being and the government doesn't enforce every moral, truth. But God does enforce every moral truth because he is perfectly righteous and just, and he has

that authority as the judge of the universe. If you kind of imagine that for just a few minutes, you can start to see your need for forgiveness. And you're not going to be so upset if someone else realizes that need also and comes to God for forgiveness. You know, it's interesting. Christor Hitchens, though he's not alone among those like him, he used to complain about the idea of God looking over his shoulder, watching everything that he was ever doing. And a lot of his reference, there was sexual things. But, you know, if you have a policeman that's always walking, following you, well, you know that, you're aware of it.

And so that's going to, it's going to affect your behavior. But most people, most people don't think about God seeing everything. some are aware. That's the fact. Even when we're not thinking about it, even when we're not consciously aware of it, we are before the Lord. This is the concept of Corom Deu. Before the Lord. Every person is always before the Lord. I like the phrase because it reminds me that I am before the Lord every moment, every day. I have it on my computer, C-O-R-A-M-D-E-O. But that's unsettling. that's comforting to me. It's unsettling for unrepent sinners. Let me put it that one. I was going to say unsettling for sinners, but I'm in that group too. Everybody wants justice until it comes to themselves.

And maybe it would be helpful, too, to point out that all you have to do is read through the Bible to realize that God cares about justice. He is the kind of God that you want. It's just that that's bad news for you. Yeah, that's right. unless someone else pays for your sins. So he just needs to apply his objection to other people being forgiven to himself and realize that this is good news for everybody. And God is a God of justice. And he continually affirms that in the Bible. Even when Paul is saying, and Paul's actually quoting the Old Testament, but even when Paul is talking about how we're not supposed to take revenge, we're not supposed to respond in kind, But the reason why we're not supposed to respond in kind is because God will bring about justice.

So even when he's asking us to be gracious, he's reminding us that God is a God of justice and he will bring about that justice. Yeah. So that he's always maintaining this idea that God is just. His grace does not deny his justice because Jesus pays for that perfectly. And incidentally, even though the grace of God, is so expansive that the worst criminal can be covered. Realistically, it isn't like criminals are coming to Christ any faster or ordinary folk. Sometimes there's individuals who have a deep sense of their own crime, but most of them are not like that from what I understand. They think

they have very high, very high self-images, you know, when they're tested for that, whatever, polled regarding that issue. So it isn't like all these bad guys are always getting off and all these poor victims are being condemned. It's just a misunderstanding how it all works out. You either pay for your crimes or let Jesus pay. That's it, whether big or small, and God opens the door and the call goes out to everyone. So that really covers the idea of how we can all be lumped together in heaven, but here is a related question that can maybe answer a little more on the hell's side, and this one comes from Carissa. I had someone asked me the other day about hell and how God's judgment on the unrighteous

is given. Do all receive the same punishment in hell? Does Hitler receive the same eternal punishment as a Buddhist? What biblical references can you give? Yeah. Okay. There was kind of two things mentioned there implicitly, the same punishment and the same eternal punishment. Okay, the simple answer is the punishment is not the same, though the duration

is the same. The punishment is not the same, though the duration is the same. We know that after the final judgment, what is resolved at that judgment, the consequences of that are never changed. So those who are casted to the lake of fire, along with the devil and his angels, etc., those will be in a state of punishment forever and ever. Now, there's controversy about this, but this is called E.C.T. Eternal Conscious torment, as opposed to conditional immortality. Some think that there's maybe a short-term punishment by comparison, and then the individuals annihilated. They disappear, and that's God's capital punishment. The punishment is the destruction of the soul, and they are no more at all, so there's

no suffering. But that's not my view, it's not our view, based on a look at Scripture, because Scripture seems to indicate otherwise. And on that issue, Tim Barnett and I wrote three pieces that you can find that. on our website and the title is, Hell Interrupted. Well, we critique that other view, and they're part one, part two, part three. You can find that there. I won't go into the details now because they're somewhat complicated biblically.

But as to whether we all agree that the final disposition is everlasting, whatever that happens to be. And when you look with regards to the punishment, Jesus makes certain comments that make it clear that some sins are greater than other sins and therefore would require greater punishment. This is common sense in terms of our intuitions about justice, our moral intuitions about that. And it's also explicit in Jesus' teaching. For example, he says to Pilate, he says, the one who has turned me over to you has the greater sin. Okay, you don't even know the context. It doesn't – the context is not important, although, you know, he's with Pilot and you got that picture.

The point that is important here is that Jesus is identifying that there are some sense. sins greater than others, which comports with our moral common sense. And not only does he identify greater sins than others, but also in other places, he makes it clear that those with greater sins will endure greater punishment. And he tells the cities that he's preaching in in the Galilee, Copernum, Beth Seda. he says, you, if the miracles that have been committed, performed rather, with you had been performed in Sodom and Gomor, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Therefore, your judgment will be more severe than theirs.

Your judgment will be greater than theirs. So we have two places where Jesus makes, I think, unambiguous statements on the this issue. First, that there are greater sins. And I gave one example of his statement there, and then there are greater punishments for greater sinners. And it's interesting here, another little sideline, is that he is identifying the greatness of their sin based on the revelation that's been given them. You were given more revelation than Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm here, working miracles in your midst. And still, you are. unbelieving. Okay, that's going to cost you. And so we learn a lot from Jesus' reaction in that

circumstance regarding this particular issue. And here's along those same lines, this is from Luke 12, and he's talking about when the son of man comes at the end of time, and he talks about, he gives a little parable about the stewards and the master putting them in charge of his stuff. And And he says, and that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will will will will receive many lashes. But the one who did not know it and committed deeds worthy of a flogging will receive but view. Okay, there you go. So there's another example. Yeah, thank you for that.

And it just is very clear. And this does push against the idea that some people will say, well, sin is sin. And there's two ways to take it. All sin is sin. Yes. agreed, but, and James develops that, James, I think, one or two, but it doesn't mean that all sin has the same gravity. There are lesser sins and greater sins, and this is obvious in the text. It's obvious to our moral common sense when we reflect on it, too. So that's something we want

to correct here is the idea that no sin is greater than the other. If your view is that all all sin is equal, then you have no way of solving moral, you know, moral, um, you know, dilemmas. Delema, yeah. I'm thinking between the devil and the deep blue sea, between a rock and a hard place. Sorry, thank you. The word was dilemma. So moral dilemmas, but when you're stuck, you have one of two choices, and in isolation,

each one would be wrong, but you have to make one of them. what? That's called a moral dilemma, and they happen. Now what? We see them in the scriptures, we see them in our daily lives. But if your view is that all sin is sin in the sense that all is equal, you cannot choose between, you don't know how to break the tie. It is a tie. But if you understand that some sins are greater than others, then you could choose the greater good by doing the lesser sin, and you can therefore solve the dilemma. So there's practical application to this understanding too. And then we can end up right at the place where people will say, well, what I have done is not worthy of hell. And again, the only way I can help someone to understand that who doesn't

know God is to imagine your, we've all been in situations where we've been in a room with someone who is better than we are, who is nicer or kinder. I am right now at the moment, Amy. Oh, gosh. But we've all, we've all. We've all. all experience that. And you feel like when you see somebody who is being kinder than maybe you were the moment before or you know in your heart that you would not have reacted that way, you feel that. You feel the difference and you feel that kind of awareness. And imagine if it wasn't just another sinful human being you're standing in front of, but the God of the universe, who is perfectly righteous and is the standard of good. Imagine that. Just look in the Bible. Every time someone

comes face to face with God, they fall on their faces. This is just hard for us to understand, especially somebody who is not used to worshiping God or seeing who God is or around anyone who loves God. It's very hard to imagine that their sin is that bad. But this is where you can pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal that to them, because you have to understand the bad news before the good news makes any sense to you. That's right. So all you can do is try and explain and try and help them put all the pieces together, and it might even help to say, look, I know you reject the idea that your sin is bad enough for you to go to hell.

And so you say this God can't exist. But just for now, let's look at how Christianity fits together. and just grant, hypothetically, that you actually are that bad, and this God, who is good, does exist, and he's found this way to uphold justice and show grace. And let's just see if that makes sense. And then we can come back to that after you understand that he's not just being arbitrary, throwing some people in hell, bringing some people to heaven, regardless of what they've done in their past.

Of course, hell is not regardless of what you've done in your life. past, but the heaven is because it's dependent on Jesus' work, not yours. But if you can help them to at least, you know, leave aside your objections just for now, whether or not it's true. Let's just look at how it fits together and just find out if it fits together. And then we can look at whether or not it's true. All right. Thank you, Fayette, and thank you, Carissa, and we'd love to hear from you, too. So send us your question, and then we can do the show because we can't do the show without you. So we hope to hear from you soon. All right, this is Amy Hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason.