#STRask - If God Commanded You to Kill a Baby, Would You Do It—Yes or No?

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Question about whether or not we would kill a baby if God commanded us to do it. If God commanded you to kill a baby, would you do it—yes or no?

Welcome to Stand to Reason's Hashtag STR Ask podcast. I'm Amy Hall, and I'm here with Greg Kokel. Hello, Greg. You paused. Like, who am I here with today? Oh, it's you again. Morning, Amy. Once again. All right, Greg. The question I have today for you, I wonder if people will run into this. They might. It's kind of maybe something you might hear from an atheist, particularly like an Internet atheist, that kind of person. Okay. So this one comes from Dan.

If God commanded you to kill a baby, would you? Yes or no? Yes or no, Greg? Yes or no? Well, there's some clarification that needs to be made here, all right? And first, let me just stand back from the question and observe what's going on. What's the intent of the question? Well, it's actually twofold. I think this one to me is similar to, can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? Okay? So on the one hand, it is an attempt to show that there is something wrong or contradictory, problematic with the atheist's view. In the case I just cited, there's an internal contradiction. God can't do something, no matter how you answer the question, and so therefore God is not omnipotent, is their point there. But it's also an attempt to kind of

do it like a mic drop moment, aha, gotcha, like that. And both of these things are in play because people will use questions like both of these to silence the Christian and, I mean, characterize, as you role-played it there, yes or no, just yes or no, as if this is all that significant in this situation. Well, there is a yes or no answer to this particular question as long as the particulars are clearly understood, okay? And so I think this is an attempt to show not that the Christian view is—or the theist view is contradictory in some sense, but it's immoral. It's immoral. See how crazy you guys are? You guys are so crazy that if God told you to kill somebody, you'd do it. I mean, presuming on the answer, but if you wouldn't, of course, then this is the other

horn of the dilemma, then you're not—then you think God is evil, you know, because you wouldn't do the thing that you know to be evil, but he doesn't know it to be evil. Okay. So this is where many of these issues, though a yes or no answer is appropriate, one or the other, either answer is going to be misleading. And I remember when I was with Dennis Prager a number of years ago talking to a Jewish audience, and he asked me the question, is Jesus the only way of salvation? Okay. And of course, there's a simple yes or no answer to that, and the correct answer is yes, but what it comes across as for the audience is that they are going to hell because they're Jews, not because they're Christian, which seems anti-Semitic, which is really a misconstrual of the real issue of why people are judged before God. And so I needed to explain some things. And the same thing is true here. There's also a hidden

liability for the atheist who raises this challenge, and I'll get to that in a moment, okay? atheist who raises this challenge, and I'll get to that in a moment, okay? So this is where questions are in order, just for clarification's sake. So wait, before I answer yes or no, I need to get clear on something about your question, and here's the first distinction. Are you asking, if I thought God was telling me to kill somebody, would I kill them? Or are you stipulating that God actually tells me to kill somebody, would I kill them? Okay? Now, in these kind of questions, these kind of, what do you call them, thought experiments, so to speak. Sometimes you do stipulate things to restrict the range of answers, so things are in place. We go, given this, this, and this,

then what about this? And those givens are really important, okay? Now, if somebody were to ask me or say to me, well, if you thought God was doing it, would you do it? If you felt God was telling you? And my answer would be, no, I wouldn't do it, because I wouldn't trust my feelings, given what I know about God. All right? But that actually wasn't the way the question was asked. The question was asked, if God told you. So, are you stipulating that God actually does say this? Okay? And when you stipulate that God is saying it, are you talking about the God of the Bible? And when you talk about the God of the Bible, therefore, you are talking about the God who has moral perfection, who could never command

anything wrong. Now, what I'm doing is I'm filling in the spaces here that need to be filled in to give this—the response—give proper understanding to the response, because the challenge, obviously, is to our view as Christians, believing in the God of the Bible, who is the moral authority of the universe, and Christians are obliged to obey Him. And so if God tells you to do something morally ridiculous, you're going to do it, aren't you? See how ridiculous your view is. Of course, that's the underlying narrative there.

And so, okay, well, let me just stipulate. So you're talking about the God, this God, and He commands me to do something. And this is the God that is morally perfect and could never, by definition now, command anything that's wrong. Are you saying, if that God commanded me to do something, would I do it? Well, the answer is, yes, I would, because there's no way that obeying Him could be wrong, okay? But that's based on the stipulation. Now, if he's going to stipulate that God is saying it, you have to affirm or you have to establish or whatever the characteristics of the God who's telling you this. And when it comes to Christianity, there's a very particular set of characteristics we have in mind,

and those characteristics are moral perfection, okay? Now, I don't think God would ever do that. And the pushback is going to be, well, what about Abraham? Well, it's very interesting how that played out. Did you read the story? It turns out that God didn't do that. He didn't require Abraham to kill his child for a very good reason. He doesn't approve of child sacrifice. And we know that because of other places in the text that says this. Okay? And Abraham was absolutely convinced, according to the narrative, according to the text, that whatever happened, his son would survive this entire event.

A couple of reasons to believe that. his son would survive this entire event. A couple of reasons to believe that. So if you're going to use a biblical account to fault the Christian, you have to be fair and use the biblical account, not some distortion that you're bringing to play. Okay? So that would be my answer. If your question is, if I thought God was telling me this, then I would question my own thoughts, because God's not like that. If, in fact, God were telling me this, if you're stipulating that, well, then it can't be a wrong thing, because the God that we are talking about is the morally perfect God. If you're not talking about a morally perfect God, but some other kind of God,

that question doesn't even apply to me, because that's not the God I believe in. So this is why stepping through this in this fashion is really important to avoid the snare. And that's all this is, is kind of an entrapment. But in a certain sense, it's understandable why the person would raise this because of their fairly truncated understanding of what God represents. But there's a hidden liability here for the atheist. Do you want to jump in first? Hold off on that because I know where you're going with that, and I think that's a good way to close this out because of that second part. I just want to reiterate, the question itself is absurd because the actual question they're asking is, if God asked you to do something wrong,

would you do it? As you explained, Greg, that's not the words they're saying, but in their minds, because of their assumptions about God— And about morality. And about morality, they're assuming, first, that God doesn't exist, and secondly, that the God written about in the Bible is evil. So they're asking this question, if God asked you to do something wrong, would you do it? So it might help to actually put it in those words and say, do you see how that question itself is absurd? Because the perfectly moral God is not going to ask me to do something wrong. So to ask me if I would do it if he did it, well, that's just – it's a contradiction in who God is.

So how can I even answer that? If God were the kind of God who told people to do wrong things, then I wouldn't be following him. But of course then how do you explain goodness at all? Right, right. There are all sorts of problems with that. So because there are so many hidden assumptions, you have to bring those out by asking questions if the person will let you. And that's where they come in with the yes or no. You're just trying to get out of this, that sort of thing.

So that is the really hard part of this question is getting them to listen. But by the way, there's another question that could be put the same way. Are you still beating your wife? Yes or no? Yes or no? Just yes or no? Well, this is called a complex question, obviously, and because there are other things that are assumed in the question, and that's why it's an unfair question, and the same reason this is an unfair question, question. And that's why it's an unfair question, and the same reason this is an unfair question, and why you cannot answer the question, the Christian can't, without clarifying some hidden assumptions in the question. And so if I'm not allowed to clarify, it's clear that all you're trying to do is trap me, which I'm not going to give in to. I don't mind answering the question

as long as proper clarification can be made. So I think there are a couple ways to kind of tease out those assumptions or remove them from the conversation. And one of them would be just to simply say, just so we cut out all of these other ideas that you have about how I'm hearing or what I'm hearing or, you know, all that sort of thing. If you were Abraham, would you have sacrificed Isaac? Now you've got it in an actual context of the God who actually did appear to him. It wasn't just Abraham having some sort of impression or nudge, nudge. So now you take out some of the issues with that. And we've actually talked about Abraham and Isaac not too long ago, I think in the last couple months. So you could find that episode and listen to that.

So that's even another way. you know, are you asking me if I had this kind of idea in my mind that maybe God was telling me something, a fake God, and so none of it was real and it was just some impression, would I do it? Then the answer is no. But if your question is, and this is where, as you said, Greg, we can, beyond even just talking about God's moral perfection, you can really hit home the God you're talking about. You know, if the real God who created the universe and who sent his son to die and suffer on the cross for his enemies, proving that he is all-powerful because he raised Jesus from the dead. By the way, this God is able to raise people from the dead. He proved that he loved us. Even Isaac, which was part of Abraham's assumption.

Exactly. And this God who proved that he cares about justice, because otherwise there'd be no reason to go to the cross. So if God clearly cares about justice, so he's not going to do something unjust. So God clearly cares about justice, so he's not going to do something unjust. His brilliant idea of the cross was to uphold perfect righteousness, perfect justice, and also love and mercy and grace. So this is the God who has proved that objectively on the cross, who he is and what he cares about and his goodness. This is the God who is the ultimate authority to judge. This is the God who is the ultimate authority to give and take life. And if this God made himself known to me in a way where I fell on my face before him, like Isaiah,

where I see him and his majesty and his power and his goodness and his righteousness overwhelm me. And I follow my face before him and I recognize who he is. And he asked me to do something. Well, then, yes, I hope I would be able to do it. And I think I would. But again, we're back to the problem of if he asked you to do something wrong, would you do it? That God is not going to ask you to do something wrong. He's proved that he will not. And your description there is just another way of elaborating on the stipulation that this is the good, righteous,

holy, morally perfect God of Scripture. So let me just throw one last thing before you get to your final point. I actually have two points now that reminded me of another one. Because there is a large-scale example of this where it happens on a very regular basis. Go ahead. Why don't you go? I won't forget what I was going to say. The whole notion of just war is the

notion that whole armies are sent to kill many other people based on the conviction that God approves of this action. And He approves of this action not because of some revelation, God told me to do it this way, but nevertheless, a reflection on the moral nature of the circumstance and the assumption God is a good God, a morally perfect God, then we are going to do the morally appropriate thing. And when we do the morally appropriate thing, then we are pleasing the God. In a certain sense, we have the implicit permission of God to do that. That's the whole idea behind

just war. So when the—I mean, obviously, there's some debate about some of these notions, but characteristically, when the Allies invaded France and Normandy on June 6, 1944, everybody thought this was a good thing. And before God, they were doing what was right, which is why there were prayers that were being offered on behalf of the soldiers to be effective in their attempts. Now, some of them might say, well, the Germans are praying for themselves, too. Right. I'm not at this point adjudicating who's right in the circumstances, although I think most people have a pretty clear idea who had the moral high ground on that particular war. What I'm saying is whole cultures understand

that there are times when it's appropriate to kill, and when you do, you have God's approval to do it. That's just war theory. So we've just expanded this from the individual, will you kill that person if God tells you to do so, to a larger scale thing, which strikes me as largely uncontroversial. And I don't suspect even the atheist would find that controversial, that there are circumstances where war is appropriate to stop a greater evil. God does command the government to keep order to punish evildoers and to praise those who do right. And so that's what's happening in a just war. Say when they're fighting the Nazis and someone goes and they're bombing, they know children will die. I mean, that's not their goal. They're doing something else, but they know that stopping them is the appropriate action. It's what

God has commanded governments to do. And that involves the death of children, though. So there's a perfect—that's an example of where that's happening. And by the way, it also involves the death of other innocents, the soldiers that are attacking. The soldiers aren't guilty of anything. They're trying to carry out justice and stop evil from happening, but they're dying also. You know, it's the first time that thought occurred to me, but go ahead. Yeah. But I just want to say here, because I, and this is where probably they might bring up, you know, they're not just thinking of Abraham, they're also thinking of when God sent the Israelites to wipe out and judge whole cultures

and remove them from the land for various reasons. God waited hundreds of years until their evil was so bad that it came to that point, and then he wiped out the whole culture. And this would be similar to an army, not just an individual going out there and killing babies. This is similar to the army we just described. But I want to point out here, that doesn't mean But I want to point out here, that doesn't mean God's heart loves that death. And I can prove that to you because all we have to do is look at David. Now, David was doing what God asked him to do. He was protecting them from their enemies.

He was protecting Israel from the enemies. He was involved in wars. He probably enlarged their territory. I'm trying to think of where that was after Judges, but not that long. They were still trying to keep their land and all that. So when David wanted to build the temple, the prophet at first says, oh, yes, go ahead. God is with you. And then God says, no, no, no, what I want you to tell him is that he's not the one to build my temple because he's a man of blood. Now, note here, it wasn't that David, as he was involved in these wars, was doing something God had told him not to do, like he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing. But what God didn't want to do is connect his temple and the heart of

who he is with war and killing. The killing and the war is a method of judgment. It's a method of removing evil, but it's not what God loves. It's a necessary thing that has to happen. what God loves. It's a necessary thing that has to happen. God wanted his temple, his worship, to be connected with peace and grace and all of these other things, you know, forgiveness. He didn't want it to be connected like some other gods were connected with war. So, even though God was commanding them to engage in this war to remove these people, it still wasn't what God loves. And so I think that's worth saying, too, because people get this kind of more pagan view of who God is from other war gods, and that's just not who God is.

Yeah. So there's another angle to this, And I think what we've done so far is hopefully made it really clear that this question is not the kind of mic drop that the people often asking the question think it is. Like, gotcha, gotcha. Because there needs to be qualification and clarification. If a person were to just demand, it's yes or no. That's all I know. Yes or no. That's when I'd fire back, are you still beating your wife? Yes or no. Yes or no. Okay. See, this is what you're doing to me. Okay. And this is frankly not fair intellectually. This is not thoughtful in terms of trying to figure things out. And then we gave some qualifications. Do you mean this or do you mean this? And by the way, if he means either of those things, we have an answer that's thoughtful. If you mean, do I believe it? Do I think that

maybe God's hinting or whatever? I'd say no, then I wouldn't trust what I believe because I know God. Are you stipulating that he's actually saying it? Well, then, if this is the great, good, morally perfect God, well, then I would do that, because by definition, it would be a good thing, and you should do it, too. And incidentally, we do have a parallel on a grander scale, a larger scale, and that's just war, where lots of people are killed with the expectation and the understanding, when that's done, that this is something that God himself approves of. And arguably, and this is the way they argue when these things come up, that this is what God wants because of the evil that would

prevail if we didn't do this lethal action against an enemy. Okay, all that's in place, but there's a whole other piece that I'm just telling you the atheist completely misses, because he's making the assumption that if you are to obey God and do this act, that the thing that you would be doing is evil. My question is, what is the basis for them making that judgment given their worldview? Now, you've got to operate from within some worldview to make a judgment. If you're operating within our worldview, well, it's not evil because we're obeying a perfectly holy God who couldn't possibly command us to do something evil. But if we're working in the atheist worldview, the words good and evil don't even have any substance. They have no place because there

are no moral obligations that are inherent to the worldview of atheism. And somebody can punt to, and they do this sometimes, to evolution. Well, we've involved our concept of right or wrong. evolution. Well, we've evolved our concept of right or wrong. But that just is reduced to, so in other words, that all I would be saying if I said, yes, I would do that if God said that, is that you evolved differently than me. Your evolution tells you that's wrong. My evolution tells you that's right. Okay, so what? I mean, this is not a morally consequential distinction. But that's something they have to answer. Now, this is called the grounding problem, and what ends up happening—how do you justify, what are your grounds for justifying your moral objections to the Christian's response, whatever that happens to be? They can't do it because they

don't have any moral system that's—watch my words, they're very carefully put—they have no moral system that's inherent to their worldview, which is atheism or naturalism or physicalism or, you know, materialism. They're all kind of basically the same for my purposes here. And there is no—all that's left is his, it's wrong for me. Well, so what? It's not—so who cares if it's wrong for you? If that's all you're saying is that it's your personal morality, and you're not arguing from a more substantial, transcendent foundation, I don't—so what? Okay?

So people have—you know, you've got Mother Teresa, you've got Hitler. Who to say, on your view, who's actually better or worse? Because there's no transcendent standard by which you can measure that. And, you know, atheists do this all the time. And the reason they do this, I'll tell you, it's quite simple. It's because they are human beings made in the image of God, and they have to live in the world that God made. And the world that God made is thick with morality, and human beings are such that they can perceive the differences between right and wrong. And so that's why they put this moral equation before you to respond to, because they are pretty confident they have this idea of

right or wrong, which has no place in their worldview. And this is a point that has to be made. On your view, though, if I did it, if I understand you're an atheist, right? Okay, materialist or however, would you consider my actions wrong? Notice the question. You want to get a commitment there. It sounds like you'd think that if I did that, that would be wrong. Yes, of course it'd be wrong. Okay, what is the basis that you have for saying that? Well, it's obvious. It's obvious that that kind of thing is wrong. Well, wait a minute. I'm not asking you, and this is a very important distinction, and I go into great lengths in Street Smarts to make this distinction, so this way you're going to get detail on this. Can we be good without God is the chapter there. I'm not asking how you know it. I'm asking how it

could be wrong. Where does it come from? You know the speed limit because there's a sign, but the sign isn't what gives—that doesn't establish the speed limit. It tells you the speed limit established by a higher authority, which is the government. So you say, well, I just know. It's so obvious. It's common sense. Well, that's the speed limit sign. Who set the speed limit? That's the real question. That is the grounding question. And it's a question they have no answer for, none. And I've trafficked on this idea from lots of different perspectives, and I'm very thankful for the intellectually honest atheist, evolutionary atheist, Michael Ruse, who makes it very clear. We believe in objective morality because we've been tricked by evolution. That's it.

We can say things are right or wrong objectively, but we have no basis for that, which is true. So there is no objective right or wrong in atheism, even with the evolutionary explanation. Therefore, the atheist has no grounds to claim that any decision by any religious person or any non-religious person is actually immoral. It makes no sense in his worldview. All right, so there you go. There's answering the question and then asking the question to the atheist to answer why he's asking the question in the first place and to try to back that up.

Right. why he's asking the question in the first place and to try to back that up. So hopefully that will give you an idea of how to go about answering this. And again, I recommend we talked about, and I can't remember the exact title, but we talked about Abraham and Isaac not too long ago. So you can go back and listen to what we said about that. And that will be helpful for this question also. And if you have another question, send it on X with the hashtag STRASK, or you can go to our website. It's at str.org. And just go to the hashtag STRASK podcast page, and you'll find a link there. Just click on the link and send us your short question,

just a couple of sentences, and we will consider it for the show. We look forward to hearing from you. This is Amy Hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason.