#STRask - Is It Okay to Pray for the Destruction and Downfall of Our Enemies?

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Questions about whether it’s okay to pray for the destruction and downfall of our enemies, how to reconcile the idea that God doesn’t tempt people with the fact that he led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, and why believers need to ask forgiveness for their sins. We use psalms in worship and model our prayers after them, but is it okay to pray for the destruction and downfall of our enemies like we see in the imprecatory psalms? How do we reconcile the idea that God doesn’t tempt people and isn’t the “author of evil“ with the fact that he led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted in Luke 4? If God sees believers as blameless, why do we need to ask forgiveness for our sins?

Welcome to the Hashtag STR Ask podcast. And today, I probably sound a little bit different to you because I'm actually at the Outpost Directors Conference, and we're doing this live in front of the Outpost Directors. So if we're doing this live in front of the Outpost Directors. So if you're not familiar with Outpost, what we have at Stand to Reason are we have chapters that are led by qualified directors, and they're based in local churches. So if you're interested in either joining an Outpost, a Stand to Reason Outpost, or in starting one, you can go to str.org slash outpost. So today we collected some questions from some of the attendees here. Right. And we're going to start with a question from Dan. Question on the imprecatory Psalms.

You teach that content from Scripture doesn't directly apply to us in our current situations, but is a model for prayer in the Psalms a model for us? We use much of Psalms, a ton of it in worship, and much of it to show how to call out to God. Yet, is it okay to pray for the destruction and downfall of our enemies? Well, this is like a lot of questions we get here, Amy, one of the more difficult ones. It just seems like the hardest questions come on hashtag STRask. Was there a comment there that had to do with me teaching or saying that we should not be using things from the Psalms? How is that?

You teach that content from Scripture doesn't directly apply to us in our current situations. Well, I'm not sure what that means, actually. What I teach is we have to be careful in how we use Scripture, and when we're using an historical account or something from the Old Testament especially, we want to make sure that we make the appropriate adjustments so that we make proper understanding of what's being said and proper application to our life. So, for example, famously in Jeremiah 29, when the prophet is making a promise to Israel, we don't lift that promise out of the context and apply it to

ourselves as Christians, but there are things in there for us to learn that are important to apply to our lives, okay? So, that's my point there. Now, what we have in the imprecatory Psalms is we have, characteristically, David being very harsh, really sharing from deep emotion, anger at sinful men. And I think there's one text where it talks about, may your children be dashed against the rocks, for example. And I guess the question is, should we be praying that kind of thing regarding our own enemies? And I would say the answer to that is no, partly because I just

read recently, I think it was in the Proverbs, how it does not make God happy when we rejoice over the calamity even of our enemies. And there's more that could be said about that, but I think that our attitudes or our actions regarding our opponents are to be characterized with grace. All right. Now, rejoicing over when our enemy falls, like David is talking about. Part of the reason I'm balking at this is because I think that there may be exceptions to this kind of thing. You fight a world war and then you, and the bad guys are over with, and you're rejoicing because the war is over, okay? But even in battle, I know that many of the—and I haven't been in combat myself, but

many who have been in combat, they reflect how there's this kind of a sympathy towards their enemy and realizing that even though they have to fight this battle, they understand that they're in a similar circumstance, that they're just doing what they've got to do, and they're human beings, you know, in a tough spot. What David is doing is he's unloading emotionally. And I think the takeaway for me, at least when I go to the imprecatory Psalms, is that it encourages me to be honest before God. And I'll tell you, quite frankly, lots of times where I've unloaded like that before God, because that's what was necessary for me emotionally to do before the God that rescued me. And I've even mentioned Psalm 13, which I, you know, I pray myself in periods of frustration, how long, O Lord, will you forget me forever?

How long will I take counsel in my soul, heaven, sorrow in my heart all the day? How long will my enemies be triumphant over me? Now, I can pray those words of David, those anguished words, with genuine feeling and emotion and authenticity. It's interesting the way in that particular case David ends, though. He ends on a hopeful note. Not all of his psalms of anguish are like that, but that's one example. That's not an imprecatory psalm, but it's one example, That's one example. That's not an imprecatory psalm, but it's one example, I think, of a psalm where David's just unloading his authentic emotions before God, just like the imprecatory psalms. And that counsels me that I have the same liberty before God. So, I mean, that's the application that I would make of that personally I think there's a difference between and I I never think that our hearts can be

one completely one way or the other but I think there are two different ways you could pray for the destruction and downfall of your enemies one of them could be I really hate those people and I want to see them fail and then one of them could be these people really hate those people and I want to see them fail. And then one of them could be, these people are evil and they're hurting people and they're destroying and I'm praying for justice. And I think there's probably some of that mixed in no matter what we're praying, but I think it's completely legitimate to pray for justice, to pray that God would bring down the people who are hurting people and that he would bring about justice, and they would be punished in some way, because justice is a good thing. And so it's not a wrong

thing to pray for justice. And I know we've had a couple questions similar to this in the past, and if anyone's interested in hearing more of our thoughts on this, there was one on December 28, 2020, and there was one on January 19th, 2023. Oh yeah, I remember those. So you can look those up, but the idea is justice is a good thing, and so I don't think it's wrong. In fact, in Revelation 6, there are actually people who are at the throne of God who have died, and they're praying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth? So they are praying for justice. They're not praying, I hate these people,

take them down, you know, and I think those are two different things. Now, sometimes in practice, they get a little blurred though because we're falling we're falling so what i cry lord and i mean that in the most christian way possible you know so so one thing i i can also say because people wonder you know we're supposed to be blessing and not cursing. But the ground for our ability to bless others who are cursing us comes in God's justice, because that is how Paul describes it in Romans 12. He says, let's see, I'll put it right up here. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

He goes on. And then he says, never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay. So the reason why we can openly bless people is because we don't have to worry that justice is being shortchanged. We know that God will be perfectly just. Either Jesus will pay for it all because the person repents, or they will pay for

all of their crimes. And so we are free to bless them. And in that way, I think we can pray for God's ultimate justice and even still not treat people with vengeance and leave the justice to the authorities God has given both the government and God to bring about justice. All right. I'm glad we got the easy one out of the way first. All right. Here's a question from Kevin. We like to say that God is not the author of evil and does not tempt us, but in Luke 4, we read that God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. How do we reconcile these two things? Well, in the case of Jesus in the wilderness, he was tempted by the devil, okay? The text doesn't say that God will not allow us to be in circumstances or even bring about the circumstances that will test us in some way. God is not the active agent in inducing

us to do evil. That's the point of God not tempting us in that sense. And in the case of the desert experience, it was the devil that was inducing or attempting to induce Jesus to do wrong. So, with that distinction in place, I don't think there's a contradiction. I think sometimes what people miss, Sometimes what people miss, they take back the moral responsibility too far. So they'll say God is responsible for all evil just because he created the world. Now, in a sense, that's true. There wouldn't be evil if God hadn't created the world, but he's not. That doesn't mean he is directly causing the evil.

So I agree with you, Greg. I think it was God's intention for Jesus to go there and to be tempted, not because God was tempting him, but because he had other reasons. And we even see that, say, Peter says that. He says that we're going through trials and things so that the proof of our faith being more valuable than gold will be seen by all and give glory to God. So it's not that God wants us to sin, but I think he does test us. And when we succeed in following him, we bring glory to him that way. When we fail, he uses it as an opportunity for sanctification. But he is not the one directly doing the tempting.

Right. Even if it wasn't his intention for that tempting to happen. Yeah. It's this whole idea of inducing to evil is the critical distinction, I think. Mm-hmm. Okay, Greg, let's go on to a question from Jane. If God sees believers as blameless, why do we need to ask for forgiveness for our sins? You know, I'm glad this came up because I think this is a huge confusion in evangelicalism,

although with a qualification, okay? And I think the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of 1 John 1.9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, okay? This is offered time and time and time again as an antidote to Christian sinning. In other words, if you're sinning, follow the dictates of 1 John 1.9, which, by the way, shows up pretty late in the New Testament record. So, what did Christians do for all of that time before 1 John was available to give this advice. Because there's nothing else like this that I know of in any of the other epistles. And the idea is, okay, so you sin, well, then you confess.

And then when you confess, you're cleansed and forgiven, and then you're right with God again. And so there's this cycle of confession based on that formula, so to speak, that's characterized in that passage, okay? But of course, if you take the passage in a straightforward fashion, if we confess our sins, then he is faithful and just to forgive us. Well, it's an if-then conditional. That means if we don't, then he doesn't forgive. And of course, a lot of people have seen it that way and understood it that way because of the language itself and then gotten into a rut, oh, I haven't confessed that.

If I don't confess all these sins that I'm committing, then I'm not going to be cleansed. Here's the harsh fact. You will never be able to confess all of the sins that you've ever committed because the greatest good is to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and strength. And there has not been a single split second of my life when I've done that, which means every second I'm sinning, and I would always be confessing if that's what was required for forgiveness, okay? The New Testament teaching is that isn't that confessing in that fashion is what brings forgiveness. What brings forgiveness

is the finished work of Christ that we appropriate when we become Christians. And Hebrews 10 is a really good primer for that, as the description of the Old Testament sacrificial systems is made and shown to be inadequate as a permanent answer to forgiveness. and then Jesus is raised as the one who makes one sacrifice for all time, and then it's finished, and therefore we can go before the throne of God with full assurance of grace, having a heart sprinkled, cleaned from an evil conscience, our body washed with pure water for he who promises faithful. That's Hebrews 10. I mean, that's a magnificent promise of cleansing, permanent cleansing.

So what is John talking about then? My conviction about 1 John is that John starts out somewhat evangelistically. And if you think, let me quickly turn to it, if you think about his opening words, which are very well known in general, he is talking about his personal experience with the real Jesus of history. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands concerning the word of life, and the life was manifested. We have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us. What we have seen and heard is like over and

over and over again. We're speaking the truth about what we experienced with the man when he walked this earth. And he said, our fellowship is with the Father, and we want you to have that same fellowship. That's evangelistic. And the letters that were written by the apostles are written largely to the church, but church has mixed audiences, okay? And the reason I know this is evangelistic is because what follows, and what follows here, and now I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but folks can read it for themselves. If you say that you have no sin, then the truth is not in you, and you're making out God to be a liar. But if you acknowledge—now, this is a paraphrase, but I think it's the heart of what he's saying—but if you acknowledge that you have sin, then he is faithful

and just to forgive you and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. In other words, this is an appeal for people to come to Christ, who he has personally experienced—he's telling the truth—to acknowledge their sin before God and to be cleansed of their sin. This is not offered as an antidote to Christians on a day-to-day basis for sin. Now, I'm not saying Christians shouldn't address sin on a day-to-day basis. I'm saying this passage is not talking about that. And if this passage is not talking about that, then the Scripture isn't teaching that we have to keep on confessing in order to keep on being forgiven. What's really interesting, by contrast, though, this is the antidote for non-Christians' sin.

The antidote for Christians' sin is in chapter 2, verse 1. And this is why John addresses that. He says, my little children, now he's talking directly to the believers, my little children, I write these things so you do not sin, but if you do sin, confess it whenever it happens and you'll be forgiven. No, he doesn't say that. He said, but if you do sin, you have an advocate with the Father and Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the propitiation for your sins, the satisfaction for the sins. So, I think this is a passage that has been deeply misunderstood. If you take it at face value, the way people are taking it, you run into theological problems.

And when I look at it in context, I don't think that's what John has in mind. The way I encourage people regarding sinning, this is just in my own life, I try to keep my records squared away with God. When I'm aware of doing something wrong, I apologize to God, and I try to set it straight, you know, okay, get back on the right road. And this happens for me, oh, every 90 seconds or so. 90 seconds or so. It's a continuous process, but I'm not begging God for forgiveness because forgiveness is a fact based on the finished work of Christ. So, just so I understand what you're saying, so what about like the Lord's Prayer where Jesus says you pray, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Assuming that is an ongoing thing, what would you say that that is doing, or what are you praying when you

pray that? I think that's more difficult to deal with, and that's the only other place I know in the New Testament where this kind of thing is mentioned, which to me is significant because the features that are important for a successful Christian life are the kinds of things that are repeated on a regular basis, okay? And so, this is the epistles. That's Jesus and the Gospels, okay? Now, David says in Psalm 32 that, you know, when he kept quiet about his sin, he wasted away, and then he confessed his sin and repented from it, whatever. And that identifies a dynamic that's important relationally. But we're talking here about New Testament, New Covenant forgiveness, okay? The only thing that I have to say about Jesus, and Jesus said

a lot of things that are hard to understand, especially in light of our understanding of grace that we get later. And one thing to keep in mind is that Jesus was consistently speaking in an old covenant set of circumstances. Now, that doesn't modify everything he has to say, but it needs to be kept in mind when we're looking at some things that seem to conflict with the kind of new covenant theology we see in the epistles. Notice that even as late as Matthew 25, Jesus is saying, do everything that the scribes and Pharisees tell you to do out of Moses, just don't do what they do. Well, obviously, that's not a new covenant requirement, but Jesus was speaking in that context. So, however we understand what's going

on there, there is an importance of dealing with sin. We get that from that passage. Whether forgiveness is dependent on confession, I certainly don't think that that's a factor of the new covenant circumstances, ongoing confession. And the practical concern is it's just impossible to keep up with the sins in confession. I agree with you, Greg, that I think there's something different happening here than when someone becomes a Christian and all their sins are paid for. Christian and all their sins are paid for, I guess I think of it like, well, first of all, our Christianity is not just a transaction. The fact that we're saved, this isn't just a transactional thing that's happening. We're actually in a relationship with a father. So imagine you're adopted by someone. You're not in danger of doing something wrong and suddenly being unadopted. So that's not the problem here. I think the problem is relational, as you said,

you explained that, Greg. And so what we're doing, I think, when we confess and ask forgiveness is we're just addressing that wrong that we've done that's harmed our relationship, not in the sense that we're unadopted suddenly, but that there's now a strain between us that we've put there. Definitely. This might be what Jesus is referring to. That is the common way that people have explained the first John 1, 9 passage. I just don't think it works for that passage.

There's too many other things that are going on there that works against it, and it's also the wording of that passage is so precise. It sure seems like if you're not confessing all your sins, you're not going to be forgiven, which I think is what the language suggests. I think that does apply to the idea of confessing that you're a sinner, you're confessing your sin to the non-believer, and I think that's the point of that particular passage. But the relational element is really critical, and that's why I think we should be keeping our books balanced with the Lord. Yeah, there are all sorts of things that happen when we're confessing sin. First of all, we are being humble. We are aware of our sin. We're aware of what Jesus

did for us for that sin, so that makes us love him more, as he said, those who are forgiven more are loved more. And it's part of our desire to be close to God, I think. I have an image in mind from the Gospels, and Greg, I don't know if you think this would apply, but it's kind of like when Jesus said, when he wanted to wash Peter's feet, and Peter said, no, wash my whole body. And Jesus said, no, you're clean. I don't have to wash your whole body. And then he washes the feet. And so maybe that's kind of more what we're talking about here.

We are adopted, we are clean, but we are keeping our relationship. I shouldn't say we are keeping the relationship, but we care about keeping the relationship without things between us and God. And I mean, this happens in our own families, right? You don't lose your relationship to your family member, even if there's a fight that you have to resolve. Right. So you want to keep those accounts balanced.

Yeah. Well, we are out of time. Thank you so much for listening. And if you're listening to us out there and you would like to give us your question, just go to X and use the hashtag STRask, or you can go straight to our website at str.org, and you can send us your question there. This is Amy Hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason. you