#STRask - “Jesus Had Two Dads, and He Turned Out Just Fine”

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

Questions about how to engage someone wearing a button that reads, “Jesus had two dads, and he turned out just fine,” and how to be kind and loving without compromising truth with someone in a Bible study who says her adult child goes by “they/them.”   How would you engage someone wearing a button that reads, “Jesus had two dads, and he turned out just fine”? How can I be kind and loving without compromising biblical truth with a member of a Bible study group I lead who told me her adult child goes by “they/them”?

Hello, and welcome to the hashtag STRASK podcast from Stand to Reason. I'm Amy Hall, and I'm here with Greg Kokel to answer your questions. And today's question, Greg, the first one, comes from Aaron. Okay. How would you engage someone wearing a button on their shirt that reads, Jesus had two dads and he turned out just fine. The button was, of course, pro-gay theology. Thank you. Oh, pardon me for chuckling, but that is so silly. That is just so silly. Who were Jesus' two dads? I guess Joseph and the father. That's what, that's, that's, that's my question to the person with that. I'm really curious. I'm

I'm not sure I understand your button. Who were Jesus' two dads? Oh, maybe they'll say that. What happened to Mary? Oh, Mary was there. Oh, so Jesus had a Father Joseph and a Mother Mary, right? Yeah. And Father God, do you think that's kind of like another human being in their family?

Is that what you're suggesting? Notice these are all questions to kind of uncover the silliness. So I guess if I would maybe do it in a little reverse order, I'd ask them what they mean. Who's Jesus' second dad? Oh, the father. Oh, so you believe in God. Well, maybe I won't ask that. I don't want to go that direction.

So you think that God is just the same as a dad in the household. Is that what you're suggesting? But, of course, their equation does suggest that. And I said, what about Mary? Where'd she go? Well, he had a mom. Oh, so he had a physical dad and a physical mom, and he turned out just fine. Yeah.

This is one of those, it's like the, it's like the sticker that says, can't we all just get along? What does that? Coexist. Coexist. That's silly sticker. I only say it's silly because it turns out to be self-refuting. Americans coexist with religions, except for some religions think they're right, and they think that's wrong, and so they're telling Christians not to say that they're right, and they need

to say everybody's right, and which means they're causing trouble with Christians, not Christians causing trouble with them. Who's not coexisting in any meaningful sense? It's the person who has the sticker. Maybe that went a little fast for some of you, but the point is that these are silly statements that people make or silly buttons that they wear. And all it takes, it seems to me, is a couple of questions like I just offered, like, hey, help me understand that.

First question was, what do you mean by that? I don't get that button. How did he have two? Who's his second dad? I know he had Joseph. Who's his second dad? Oh, God the father. Okay.

Well, that's true. But we all have God the father, kind of. But where was Mary? Well, Mary was there. Oh, so in his household, he had a physical dad and a physical mom, and he turned out okay, being raised by a mother and a father. Am I understanding your understanding correctly? No, I don't know what they're going to say. Honestly, I don't know what they can see against this.

All of a sudden, they're squeezing Mary out of the equation when she's prominent in the entire account. Joseph has very little role. We see him in the beginning. We never see him again. So that's more of a single mom kind of deal because it appears that Joseph did not survive very into Jesus' adulthood. That's the presumption. And so Jesus, as the eldest, had to take over responsibility probably for some family

things. Anyway, it's, use the tactical approach, ask the questions, especially when you know that once you get the emoticum of clarity on this particular issue, it turns out. to be silly. I think that's a great approach. I just want to add something about attitude when you're talking about these things. First of all, I suspect that if you're talking to someone on the street, they're not going to want to talk to you about this. They just want to make their joke and move on. If this is someone you know, it's possible you might be able to have a conversation about it. But the key is to not get angry. Well, kind of like I was getting annoyed just a few

modes. No, I think you did that well. The key is to not get defensive and angry. I found that if you, whatever you want to say, whatever conversation you want to have with someone, if you do it respectfully and patiently and without any sort of defensiveness, most of the time people will talk to you. And even if it's a contentious topic, if it's someone you know, I don't know that that necessarily works with someone you don't know, although I've had it. work, in those cases also? Yeah. Well, work, you know, that's a fairly broad word. I just mean having a conversation that doesn't flow up. If I saw somebody in public with that button, I could ask that. I'm confused. Who's his other father?

Oh, well, what happened to Mary? Oh, she was there. So Jesus had a physical father and a physical mother. Is that right? Yes. Well, I don't understand your button then. That's all that's required because it is confusing when you think about it. And if they don't want to tell, they can just move on well.

It's kind of a joke. Oh, okay. No, I know. Thank you. Yeah. Just curious. So as long as you can do it in that manner, I think they will listen. I also, if it's going well, if you want to take it a step farther, what you could say is simply, are you interested in hearing why people think mothers are important?

Mothers and fathers are important. Why each add something different to the. the family. So if you're able, if you feel like it's going in a good direction, you can ask, are you interested in hearing why people disagree with that two of the same-sex parents is the same as parents of the opposite sex? Or if you want to put it in other way, what mothers add and what fathers add uniquely. You know, a lot of times these are the same people who argue that every corporate board has to have equal men and women. Oh, yeah, isn't that ironic?

Because it's so important that you have each perspective. Yeah. So you can even ask about that. I mean, I know a lot of people say that every board should have men and women. Do you agree with that? Yeah. So why do you disagree with that when it comes to the family? Yeah.

It's not consistent. It's just not consistent. Yeah. But it usually isn't the things coming from that side. That's true. Okay, let's go on to, unless you have something more to say. No. Okay. Let's go on to a question from Jennifer.

A friend and member of a Bible study group I lead told me her adult child goes by they slash them. I can try only using the child's name, but it may become obvious I'm avoiding using pronouns where they typically would be used. How can I be kind and loving without compromising biblical truth? Well, you can't be. And what I mean by that is by holding your. ground and trying to navigate as carefully as you can without compromising biblical truth, virtually no one on the other side is going to consider that to be loving. So if what one is looking for in a circumstance like that is for others to think that you're

being loving, that's a shimra. That's just a ghost. It's probably not going to happen. But you can, of course, demonstrate before God and that person the kind of love that God has in mind, by being gracious and kind and whatever without, even though from their perspective you're misgendering them. Actually, you're not misgendering them. You're speaking about them accurately when using the gender that matches their sex.

But this infuriates people in this circumstance. Now, it seems to me, and again, these are the kinds of things that sometimes defy logic. But it seems to me, in a family situation, if you have... a sibling, not a sibling, but a child. I guess this is maybe an adult child that's that she's dealing with in the situation that Jennifer is dealing with, that it would be completely reasonable to say, honey, I just can't do this, they, them. For one, I don't agree with that.

And for two, I don't agree with the whole concept. It's so hard to adjust to that, okay? So I'm just telling you, I love you, and nothing about your own ideas about yourself is going to change my love for you. But I simply cannot go along with the they-them, all right? Because you're just, you're my daughter, you're not my daughter's kind of thing. And make an appeal a fair-minded, fair-minded, even-handed, appeal to that person regarding this. Now, there's no silver bullet here, and what we all hope for with family members that we love who are kind of often the deep end in something strange, and this is the deep end, in my view, and it is strange. It violates all common sense, but there's a wave of sympathy in the culture for this, no.

It's ebbing just a bit, but this wave of sympathy positions anyone who disagrees as an evil person. And therefore, it's the person who disagrees with this that is the family wrecker, you know, when they're not going along. Of course, what wrecks the family is the person with gender confusion saying, you know, I'm not going to have anything to do with you if you don't do just as I say here. There's no charitableness. I mean, characteristically, there are exceptions to this, but characteristic, there's no charity being shown here. Now, I'd have a little dialogue in regarding this in the Street Smart's book. And the way I approach this is I try to leverage their ethic of authenticity against them. Before you go on, I just want to make sure you caught this beginning.

The person running this in is the leader of a Bible study group, and the person who said her daughter is going by they, them is a member of that group. Okay. So, okay, I don't want to miss the question then. Is the, is the request for advice regarding how to help the mother or how to address the daughter who isn't there? So, okay, let me just read the beginning again. The friend and member of a Bible study group I lead told me her adult child goes by, they, them. And so she's expecting the leader to also go along with this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, That's even worse.

It's more problematic because you'd expect somebody in a Bible study not to demand when the other person, the gender dysphoria person, is not even present to use the appropriate genders. And I think it's, I think what can be said there is simply, well, I can't do that because they're not multiple. Their gender is a, your daughter is a she or your son is a he, and they're not even present to be offended. So why, I guess I wonder if she had been trying to use, I guess the first name and not use the they, them, and realize that's just too awkward, which I can see that, especially in this situation. And when she supposedly misgendered the child, the parent in the Bible study objection, That's not in the question, but to me, that's almost unthinkable.

Why would the parent object when the child's not even there? I still think your authentic approach is good, so I want to make sure you do go through that because I think that could be helpful. All right. So this whole movement is based on a claim to authenticity. The way I see myself in this moment, that's my authentic self. And, of course, that could change in a day or two, and then they have a different authentic self. But the culture is saying, you do you, you be your authentic self. And the implicit, not always so implicit, sometimes explicit instruction to the rest of the culture is you must encourage them in that kind of identity at the moment.

And if you aren't, you're not allowing them to be their authentic self. in critical theory, this is called oppression by ideology. If you have a different idea or point of view than that person, you're oppressing them just by holding a different view. Okay, it's crazy, but that's the way this has been played out. So the way you deal with that is you use that against them. If this issue comes up in a conversation, you say, do you think people should be their authentic selves?

Yes. Of course, they think you're referring to. the gender confused person. Yes, I do. Okay. And so if, if somebody is asking them to live differently, then they understand their authentic self to be, then that shouldn't be done. That demand should not be made. It means another question. Of course. All right. So what do you call, say, a Christian who believes one thing, but lives an entirely different way from what they believe. Well, you know the answer to that. That's a hypocrite. Okay. So then the question is, why, why are you demanding that I not be authentic to my own beliefs regarding this and at the same

time demanding that I be hypocritical? Okay, that's the, that's, if you want to use the term, the mic drop moment. That's where it all comes home. Those first couple of questions set it up and you're trading on their view. And of course, it's entirely consistent to make that request, but it doesn't work that way, you know, but at least it'll help them to see. Why is it that I have to affirm, you want me to affirm their authentic self, such as it is, but you are not willing to let me be my authentic self. Well, because you're a bigot, you're intolerant, you're whatever, you know, and the stream of ad hominums often follow. But at least you are, you're laying, this out and making a reasonable point.

It may be that you figure, okay, I've gone as far as I can go and then you just let the conversation die. I don't get all defensive and they say this. But anyway, I mean, there's more that could be said about this. I think our listeners get the point. Now, this is all in the Street Smart's book under the chapter on gender because, and this just amounts to the old saw that the tolerable. and street is a one-way street with the left. All of these streets are one-way streets.

What's mine is mine, and what's yours, that's mine too. That's their attitude. And so if we could hopefully maneuver in conversation to help them see this abuse that they're foisting upon people who disagree. Now, I think the success quotient in that kind of conversation is kind of low, but at least you have something to do in some way to make your stand. and appropriately say, this is why I can't do it. And if you really believe what you say, you believe about authenticity, then you ought not give me a hard time about this. I think that is a great general approach.

And I want to dial down a little bit on the specific situation of a Bible study leader, especially since you're the leader, I think it's completely appropriate to invite her out to coffee or lunch or whatever it is and just say, hey, I just want to talk to you about something that people kind of get upset over, and I don't want you to misunderstand what my, what's going on in my mind or why I'm doing this. I just want to be clear about where I'm coming from because I care about you, and I'm leading this Bible study, and you're a valuable part of it, and it's my job as your leader to help you to know the mind of Christ better, to help you know what God has said better. And so my goal and what I'm about to tell you

is to make it clear that everything I'm doing for you is out of love for you and care for you and your child. So I don't want you to misunderstand what I'm doing. And then you could go into this discussion. And if you want to make it a little more personal, maybe especially in terms of a fellow Christian, because don't assume, and this is, I want to just, interjection. Sure. A lot of Christians have no idea. They just never been taught about any of these things. So don't assume that they're going to reject everything you say. They might not. They'll probably be hurt at first. But if they're truly, if they truly want to follow Christ, they're going to listen to what you have to say. So what you could say is, you know, it's important to me that I

follow my conscience and what I think God has told me is true. And so I want to make sure you know what that is because I think truth is important. Let me pause just for a minute. Okay. And I've made this point at other times that I think it's really careful that we don't appear to be relativizing our point here. So instead of, if I could suggest this Amy, in this roleplay you did, instead of saying what I think God has shown me as true in the Bible, just making the statement about what is true, you know. So I don't know how you led into that, but what I'm trying to do is to defend what is true. And what is true is that there's only two genders or sexes. You see my point? Instead of what I think, you know, what sounds like.

Okay. So I misspoke because I was saying what I think. Not what I think is true, like I'm like a relativized thing. I know you're not relativistic, but sometimes our language, well, we believe Jesus rose from the dead, as opposed to Jesus rose from the dead. So stating the fact is rather than stating our belief in the issues that we are convinced our facts. So the – but then we can't lead into the idea of going with my conscience. So that's kind of where I was heading with that. Okay.

So maybe it seems like I'm being a little picky here, but I think I would say I'm – as a Bible study leader, I'm committed to communicating with the Bible. teaches. Okay, that's a good way of putting it. Because I do want to bring the Bible into it because then it's not just on you and your subjective thing. You're putting it on Jesus and you're putting it on what God is revealed. I think that's really important. I mean, I'm probably the only one who caught that, but I've just been on the hunt for that kind of stuff. You know, I mentioned it with the team before. Yeah. Being careful about that. So just in general. Sorry. Well, if you're going to lead into going with my, well, if you, okay, I guess then that's two

different approaches. Because if your approach is going to be, I don't want to go against my conscience, then it's going to be what you think is true. If your approach is going to be, I'm going to go with what God has revealed, which maybe is more appropriate in this situation than, or maybe a combination of the two. Yeah. Well, either way, just as long as it doesn't sound like, this is my personal belief, you know. You can do that with, and what I, the role model I just described a few moments ago that's in street smarts, that's, I'm pursuing a somewhat hostile audience, okay? And so we're just playing their ethic against them. Right. And if you get to live by your subjective, authentic life, I should be allowed to live by what you think is my subjective, authentic life. But of course,

we don't hold our views just subjectively. We think this is the way reality is structured, male and female. And we know that, not from reading the Bible, but by just looking at reality, you know, and the Bible explains why reality is structured that way, because God made it that way for the sake of human flourishing. Maybe I'm made too much out of this point, so I... No, that's okay. It's certainly something people have to keep in mind, for sure, because it's easy to fall into the language of our culture, and so it's good to know not to let that happen. You were on a roll, though, and can you remember where you were? Sorry. So once you, it's going to be, it's hard to know how this particular person is going to respond. I think the overall point is just couch it in the idea that our goal is Christians is to conform our minds to the mind of Christ, to the truth. And that's what I want to do. And I also think that's what's best for everyone. And I, because of that, if I compromise on that,

I'm actually hurting people. And since my goal is to not hurt people is to build people up, even when it hurts because sometimes true compassion does hurt people because it's for their good and it's not what they want. I mean, we can see this happening all the time. People want certain things that are bad for them. And it's not best for them to give them what they want. So if you can just glorify God in the truth and how much you want to glorify God. And then you could even say, like, help them to save face, because this is going to be difficult to hear.

And you could say, look, I'm convinced this is what the Bible says. Now, if you would like to have a discussion about that and you want to make a case, we can go over and we can discuss this. But this is what I'm convinced is true. So I'm going to act on this. And I just want you to know why. It's not because I hate your child or you or I'm a bigot or whatever. It's because I'm trying to be faithful. Right.

Excellent. I think if you put it in those terms and offer, you know, we both agree the Bible is the standard. So I'm completely open to discussing the standard with you and hearing what your arguments are and looking at that together and finding the actual truth. But until that, until one of our minds has changed, we're going to have different approaches to this, but at least you understand why. So hopefully that will kind of diffuse the situation. Again, it depends on who it is and how committed they are to following Jesus and how much they have already rejected that they've been told. It depends on a lot of things.

But hopefully that will give you a way forward. Excellent. So thank you, Aaron and Jennifer. We appreciate hearing from you. Send us your question on X with the hashtag STR Ask or go to our website at STR.org. This is Amy Hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason. Thank you.