#STRask - Someone Who Died Saving the Life of Another Shouldn’t Be Punished with Hell

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Questions about responding to the claim that someone who died saving the life of another shouldn’t be punished with Hell, and answering someone who says they don’t need a relationship with God and that if there’s a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds.   How would you respond to the claim that someone who died saving the life of another shouldn’t be punished with Hell? What would you say to someone who says they don’t need a relationship with God and that if there’s a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds?

Welcome, friends. This is the hashtag SDRS podcast from Stand to Reason. And this first question, Greg, comes from Anonymous. How would you respond to someone who thinks that someone who died saving the life of another shouldn't be punished with hell? Truth is, seeing some of the Bondi heroes who died shielding others feels heavy. And this is referring back to, for anyone who doesn't remember or missed this back in December, There was a shooting in Australia on Bondi Beat where some Islamic terrorists shot a – it was some sort of a Jewish festival on the beach there and killed people there. So what do you think about this question, Greg? Well, it's – in some ways, it's hard to respond to because you countenance this amazing thing. And the Bondi Beach thing – there was a lot of video footage related to it. And so you see a lot of this carnage. also see people tackling the gunmen and disarming them and things like that. And I wasn't aware of people

who had shielded other people and then got killed themselves. But you don't want to give any of those actions the short shrift. These are magnificent manifestations of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice. No greater love is no man than this than he sacrificed his life for a friend. And even if there weren't friends, Paul says that Romans 5, he says that even while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us, and it was meant to manifest as a manifestation of God's love for us because it wasn't even we were friends, we were hostile. So when you have human beings that are in a similar circumstance, we have to, you know, take our hats off in homage to them for the thing that they did.

But that doesn't accomplish what some people thinks it might accomplish. Because even though it's a great act of good, sometimes we have this idea in our mind that the act of good somehow outweighs any of the evil. Who was the guy, the businessman, and the Third Reich who saved all those Jews, but he was kind of a... Schindler? Yeah, Oscar Schindler. So here's a guy who did a lot of great good. He was considered a righteous Gentile and honored by the Jewish nation as such. But he was also a cad in a lot of ways and kind of came to his senses part way through this whole process of hiring these Jews to do a factory work for him.

And then he figured out ways to save their lives. But his life was still filled with all of these other immoral behaviors. and things that it isn't as if there's a balance. Good deeds outweigh the bad. And this is a constant confusion. And I think all one has to do is think of any system of law. And realize that you're not going to get, if you haven't broken any laws, you're not going to get a letter from the DA saying,

gee, I've just checked your record here and you haven't broken any laws. You've been a law-abiding citizen for the last 10 years. go out and knock off a few gas stations. You have credit in your account. The law requires that we keep it all consistently. Now, I read, I think, a summary of Anselm's writing around the turn of the millennium. His piece was Curre, Deuce Homo, by the Godman. And in that piece, he argues, I think, very persuasively, that all the good things we do, we already owe to a good God. Just like any other law, we are obliged. to the government to keep the law that they make. And we can keep them all, and we break one, one law, okay? Oh, driving 85 and a 65. You got me dead to rights. But, you know, officer, before I got the freeway, I stopped at 10 stop signs.

I mean, like full, you know, full and complete stop. None of this California rolling stop business. No problem. No, he's not going to buy that because you are supposed to do the first and the second. Keep all the laws. and it's so unfortunate that people have somehow seized upon this element as if it was mattered. As long as you good deeds outweigh you're bad, you're basically a good person. You're basically a good person.

The law requires that you be completely good or else you're a lawbreaker. And this is something that James makes very clear in what James one or two early on in the book of James, he said, look at it if you don't commit adultery, but you do commit murder. you're a transgressor of the law. Not in one way, but in another way. And therefore, you are obliged to keep the whole law. And again, this is true, not just of God's law, but any law. Name any particular law in any jurisdiction that you could break with impunity without expecting or at least deserving punishment for breaking the law. Now, sometimes you don't expect it. You go, you know, you go 72 and a 60 You know, they're not going to stop you. But, so you can get away with certain things.

They don't fuss about that. But you see, God is not like that. God's law is perfect. And at the final judgment, they open the books and there's your rap sheet. The deeds or misdeeds actually that you have performed. And every single individual who's judged on that basis ends up in the Lake of Fire. Read the text. Now, oh, this sounds crazy.

Well, that's because we have softened things for our benefit. We have viewed things very differently because, you know, we're the criminals. I think I write about this in a story of reality, you know. We have a tendency to take a view that favors us and doesn't understand God's holiness, properly. So we can say on the one hand that the behaviors that we witness there in Bondi, and by the way, that's just one example. In every battle, there are bunches of examples of that kind of thing, you know,

and every, their heroism all over that we can applaud. But the hero, but no one salvation is based on anything they did, they did good. they are at risk because of what they did bad, and everyone has their sins are legion, some more than others, obviously. And to many of us, we look at other people, say, well, that's a really good person. But if you look in the cracks and crevices of their lives, you're going to see something entirely different. That's the way God sees it.

And so it isn't giving our lives for someone else that earns us our salvation. it's rather Jesus giving his life for us that earns our salvation. This should feel heavy for this reason. We, it opens our eyes to the fact of our actual situation. Because like you said, we look around, we think we're pretty much all good people because we're comparing ourselves to the people around us. And it's heavy to think that we in that category, we're in that category just like anyone else, deserve punishment because of God's perfect justice. That is heavy. And it's very hard for us to see.

It's very hard for us to comprehend because we're just used to it. But everybody knows if you are around someone who is better than you are, suddenly you see yourself in a different way. Suddenly you can see, like when you see someone who's very giving, suddenly all of your selfishness seems much more clear to you. And I think of like Isaiah. I mean, who, Isaiah wrote a book of the Bible. He was a prophet. He was great. But when he saw a vision of God, he says, woe is me for I am ruined, for I am a man of unclean lips.

And I live among a people of unclean lips. So seeing God revealed, shown a light on all of his darkness. and he realized what his real situation was. So thinking about the fact that even someone who could do something like this, die for someone else, is still in a situation where he does not deserve heaven. Well, what does that say about you? I mean, that's very heavy on what you deserve.

And that ends up showing you the grace that you need, and that ends up helping you to understand grace a little better, which isn't a bad thing. So that heaviness of knowing that even somebody who would do something this good deserves punishment for his sins, that's something... For the things he did bad. Right. Not that that's a sin, obviously not. And I was thinking about, this actually reminds me of Romans 9, we were talking about in the last show, but we didn't mention this part.

but the fact that not even is that person good enough and the fact that that reveals the depth of the grace that we require Romans 9 says what if God willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon on vessels of mercy, which you prepared beforehand for glory. So the fact that some will face this justice actually reveals the grace. It helps us to understand better the grace that he's offering to us. And it helps us to appreciate that more and see it better for what it is. And I don't know that we will see it for what it is until we are actually standing before God and we understand.

Like Isaiah. Yeah. So we may. may not get that in this life, but even now, I think that heaviness is appropriate because it's very sobering to realize what we are in our situation. I just want to add to that, I am sympathetic to this concern. As human beings, we respond to these incredible examples of self-sacrifice. And we don't want to take any of the nobility away from that, any of the goodness away from that. We don't. want to just simply be dismissive. Well, their sin is so much great. Well, we can understand this in

human terms and be deeply moved by it, but ultimately we can't assess it in human terms, merely human terms, as if we know better. I mean, I could go ahead and give some illustrations about how it put all that perspective. I used the example of Oscar Schindler there, even though all those good things that he did. I mean, it comes out in the movie. But you, you find, well, there's a lot of other stuff, too, that wasn't so good. And if you just committed 10 sins a day, which is like really low from the time you're 10 to the time you're 60, it's like 176,000 infractions of the law. You know, that's a pretty long rap sheet, and that's best case scenario. We have to assess these things, I guess, for lack of a better word,

theologically, based on what God says from God's perspective. And then these things kind of come more into proper focus without taking away anything of the nobility and goodness of these acts of heroism and self-sacrifice. And it's actually an image of Christ whenever anyone dies for someone else, and that's why I think it touches us so deeply. It's a beautiful thing. All right. Let's go into a question from Carissa.

How would you respond to someone that asks why they need a relationship with a God they don't need? It doesn't matter if they go to heaven or hell. If there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds. Well, yes, which is exactly the problem. This is one liability of advancing the gospel based on an appeal to relationship. This is a more contemporary way of putting it. I was troubled by this back my early days as a Christian, and that's when I went back to the

Book of Acts, and I wanted to find out, well, as the gospel, was presented in the Book of Acts. So these are the people that Jesus trained to follow after him. And we see Peter and John communicating the gospel in different circumstances and later Paul. I wanted to see exactly what they said. What kind of appeal did they make? And it turns out the gospel has preached 13 times in the Book of Acts, either to individuals or to groups. And I really was genuinely surprised to find this. I wanted to to see, what was the emphasis that they were offering on relationship with God? It turned out they never offered relationship with God as something to make an appeal for people believing it was totally different.

The closest thing that comes is one of the, either Paul or Peter said, times of refreshment will come. Times of refreshing will come. So, I mean, that's not exactly relationship, but it was at least there was an appeal. to a subjective element. That's it. Now, just to be clear, Paul does talk about this to the Christians. Obviously, the Bible goes into the fact that we are in union with Christ and all this. But you're talking about preaching to non-believers. What was the appeal that was being made? Okay. Now, the problem then, when this, in a sense, what's the right word, non-biblical means of communicating the

gospel is used? It's not unbiblical. It's not controversial. It's not controversial. to any theological principle taught, but it's not the way the apostles pursued things. And I guess the closest thing I can think of to Jesus, it wasn't like a steady piece of his message, but when in what Matthew 12, he says, come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest, take my yoke upon you because I'm humble of heart, et cetera, you will find rest for your souls. Okay, well, that's a subjective appeal. I get that. And I think that's available to us when we get rest from the demands of the law, I think, is what he's focusing on.

So it appeals there. But when it's all about relationship with God and now it's – then you get these kinds of concerns. Oh, well, I don't want a relationship with God. I don't need a relationship with God. I'm doing just fine all by myself. I think – and what is the end of it, talk about justice? If there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds. Okay, well, see, this is exactly the thing.

problem, though. We do have a just God who will judge us according to our deeds. Forget about relationship. This was the emphasis, by the way, in the New Testament, where even in Acts 10 and then what 17 on Mars Hill, so you've got Gentiles in both cases, X10ist Cornelius, he has appointed man to judge the living and the dead. And all who believe in them are not judged, you know. Look at those two passages. Having provided proof through the resurrection of the dead, Paul says there in Corinth. So you've got this whole different kind of emphasis agreeing with what Carissa is saying here. That's exactly the problem. God is a just God. Forget about relationship. You stand before him now, and either Jesus pays or you pay. You want to pay? That will take forever, just saying, that's the whole point about it forever. Hell, that will take forever. So if Jesus pays, perfect mercy, well, then the result of it is being drawn and brought into God's family

where a genuine father-child relationship is available to us. Right now, it's subject, sovereign, and the subjects are rebels. They're in trouble, and the text makes that really clear. And this is where sometimes we have to be careful about how we appeal to people because sometimes the appeal isn't quite biblically balanced. And I think this, what strikes me as an excessive appeal to relationship is an example of that. And then it encourages challenges like this. Well, I don't want relationship with God. No, of course you don't. You want to do everything on your own.

You want to be your own God, essentially. And, you know, God here kind of cramps our style. Well, everything we've said so far in this episode plays into this answer because we talked about not realizing our situation. Who comes to mind, the person who comes to mind here for me is Dennis Prager who would say, no, I think God cares about behavior. Yeah. Not just about belief. Not just about belief. And my response, I wrote a piece on this one time and I said, God cares more about behavior than he thinks.

Because we are saying no one can get there because our behavior, he is very strict and he's perfectly just. That is the whole problem, is that God cares about behavior. This is why we need to be forgiven. This is why we need someone to pay for that justice so that God can be just. and show grace. I think that part of the reason that sounds compelling is because the belief that's, I think, characterized in that statement is belief that rather than trust in. And that's the key.

And actually, Dennis and I had a conversation about this very thing on a stage during high holy days, and you were there in the audience. You might remember it was at least 10 years ago. It was on my spirit. Probably 15. It was a long time. It was on my spiritual birthday, too, as it turned out. And I did my best to try to help him understand that it isn't just holding the correct beliefs as opposed to having correct behavior, but trusting in a savior and that trust, I e. Pisteta, oh, belief, faith, however you want to characterize it, not a belief that, but a belief in.

The metaphor I've used, I don't know if I said it then, but this is included in the story of reality is I can, I'm, I'm, On Friday, I'm heading for, what, Michigan, Detroit. And I believe that plane is going to be able to take me there. It has the capabilities the pilot is adequate to the task. Delta Airlines, you know, is reliable. And, but I don't exercise, I believe that. But I don't exercise faith in all that that I say is true until I get on the plane. And getting on the plane is what matters.

And once you get on the plane, and you're right, there's an antecedent concern. turn about behavior. God cares more about behavior. He's so strict about it. This is why we need a savior. But once we get on the plane, the whole relationship, to follow the metaphor, changes with God because now we're inside the family, and now God wants us to engage in good deeds, which are good and profitable for men. That's Titus chapter three. Big strong statement there about, he saves us, not according to our deeds, et cetera. Washing a regeneration of the Holy Holy Spirit, be confident. You got that? Yeah, now engaging good deeds. And he really cares about good deeds, but the tail's not whacking the dog here. And that's what the people who raise questions like

this in the prayer, what I think are confused about. So I think if someone says, if there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds. The direction to take it is to just bear down on that and say, you are absolutely right. God is just, and he is going to judge you on your deeds. And he knows not only what you did, but why you did it. And he knows every single, he never looks away. He didn't miss anything. He saw everything you've ever done.

He saw, even when you were able to convince other people, like you had reasons for it. You cannot hoodwink God. He sees it. He sees through your soul. And see. And then now what? Okay, now what? Yeah. That's excellent, Amy. Yeah. Exactly right. And this is why you need God.

Yeah. Because he's a perfect judge and he's not going to sweep any of that under the rug. It's just funny to me that they think that is helpful. That's the way to go. I mean, I shouldn't even, I shouldn't even chuckle at that because this is a heavy thing as we've been talking about. This is really heavy and people do not understand their situation. They do not understand it. So whatever we can do to help them understand that. And just a point of clarification, Amy and I don't understand it either. I mean, we are still in our flesh and we have an understanding of it, but it isn't like that's perfect.

It's easy for us to kind of shrug off our peccadilloes of sorts. So this is the human condition, the fallen human condition. We don't see God as it really is. And in Scripture, when God chose himself even a little bit, we get the response. Like Isaiah, oh, no. And there are times when you give into some sort of sin where you cannot justify it to yourself. And that's when you figure out how much you're trusting Christ to pay for your sin.

Because there have been times when something I feel guilty about, I realize, oh, my gosh, I think I've been trusting in myself more than I realize. And that's when you have to really consciously put your trust in Christ and say, he is paying for this, even this. And at those times, I think we get a glimpse of our own sinfulness. And God reminds us, hey, this isn't because of anything you're doing, but it's only because you are joined to Christ that you can stand before me at the end. And you'll be judged by the Book of Life, having your name in the Book of Life, rather than you. than by your deeds. That is what we need.

And maybe you could even say, the question you should be asking is not why isn't just, the question, or how can I get justice from God? The question you should be asking is how can I get mercy from God? Exactly. All right.

Thank you, Anonymous and Carissa. We appreciate hearing from you, and we look forward to hearing your question, either through X with the hashtag STR ask or our website at STR.org. This is Amy Hall and Greg Kochel for Stand to Reason.