Strict Scrutiny - Untitled Dating Show

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

It’s law school advice time, Strict Scrutiny style! Melissa and Leah chat with Mark Moran, graduate of UVA Law and contestant on FBoy Island, for the first ever Strict Scrutiny x FBoy Island Crossover. What can law school teach you about reality TV, and reality TV teach you about law school? A lot, it turns out…. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Threads, and Bluesky

Welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your hosts. I'm Melissa Murray. And I'm Leah Whitman. And Kate Shaw was not ready for the episode that we have in store for you today, so she had to take a pass. But listeners, this is a very special episode for a very special season, the start of law school. We know that many of our listeners are law school students or aspiring law school students. And with the start of the new school year, a bunch of people are offering their hot takes for new law students. So we thought we'd get in on the action, strict scrutiny style.

And so we are bringing you the very first, and hopefully the first of many, strict scrutiny FBoy Island crossover episodes. So here we go. For those of you who are looking around quizzically saying, what is this FBoy Island to which Melissa is referring? Well, our first piece of law school advice is for you to put down that book, get yourself to a TV, and download HBO Max so you can watch the entire 10 episodes of FBoy Island. It is required viewing for this podcast. And just to help us explain what FBoy Island is, we have none other than Mark Moran, one of the contestants on FBoy Island and a graduate of one of my favorite law schools, the University of Virginia's law school. So wahoo wah, welcome to the show, Mark. Well, thank you, Melissa, so much for having me. I'm really excited to bridge these two worlds of

FBoy Island and strict scrutiny. So let's do it. Why don't we just start with a little quick about FBoy Island teaser for our listeners who might not be familiar with the show? Although, again, you should all watch it. But just so you understand the premise, what is FBoy Island slash what is it about? So FBoy Island is a show that was created by this guy, Elon Gale, who a bunch of the success of The Bachelor franchise is attributed to. He was a producer for about 10 years. And so he felt that the franchise of The Bachelor kind of reached a point in society where how realistic is going on a show to find love that's on national television? You know, maybe it was time for something new. So he had been working on this show that when I signed up for it, it was in all the legal documents, quote unquote, untitled dating show. So I didn't know the name of it at the time. And then imagine having to explain the name of it when

you find out to your parents. That was an interesting conversation. How about your employer? Did you tell your employer, like, look, I signed up for Untitled Dating Show. It turns out that Untitled Dating Show is going to be FBoy Island. So we knew it was Untitled Dating Show. And then when I got back, so we filmed from middle of February to the middle of April. And then about two months after, it was when we found out the title of it. Oh, wow.

And the working title. Yeah. So we didn't know until relatively recently, which was, that was a shock, having never done reality TV before. Because I don't watch much reality TV. And then with this, at first, so the funny backstory about this is so you know, I go to UVA for law and business school, I've been working as an investment banker on Wall Street for a few years up in New York. And so I was on hinge one day, which dating app in late, I'm sorry, for the over 40s on this podcast, me, what is a hinge? It is a date. So hinge is a dating app. It's kind of like a more sophisticated version of Tinder,

I would think. But if this is a less sophisticated version of Grindr. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so so I'm on it and I match with this woman who she goes, you know, look, I actually I don't live in New York. I live in L.A. and I match with this woman who she goes, you know, look, I actually don't live in New York. I live in L.A. and I have a boyfriend. But have you ever thought about being on TV? And I was, you know, I'm not going to go on The Bachelor or anything like that. And she kind of kept reaching out and she was ultimately like, you know, OK, some people from Warner Brothers want to talk to you about the premise of the show and answer any questions. Wait, so she got to you through a dating app?

Yeah. And I guess normally for this, people apply. And one of the questions I had to the producers was like, all right, so I know that the premise of this show, which in this tangential answer we're getting to, you know, there's good guys and then there's bad guys or F-boys. And you don't know who's who, but the production team knows and people apparently could apply to be either one that they had kind of separate casting calls. And so I said, why, how does one like apply to be an F boy? And I mean, is it, is it hard casting them? And yeah, the guy was like, you'd be surprised. It's so much harder finding nice guys than it is F boys. We have thousands of applications to be an F-Boy, but it's very hard.

And so they had to go on dating apps and find regular people who wouldn't think to audition for reality TV to find nice guys. This is amazing. Exactly, right? Exactly. You can't make it up. And so it was just hilarious kind of a collision of things.

And then, you know, it's the middle of COVID. I find out I can go to this tropical island, had no idea where it was, come to find out it was filmed in the Cayman Islands, or it was going to be filmed in the Cayman Islands. And The Firm by John Grisham is my favorite book. And he's probably the reason why I went to law school. Well, he's a Charlottesville resident. He is. I would see him, you know, at the grocery store sometimes when I was in school there. So don't sleep on Charlottesville. Charlottesville is a fun place with lots of celebrities. Exactly. It really is. I mean,

it's been growing a lot recently, too. And if I ultimately I want to go back there at some point and go back to Virginia, but for now, stuck up in New York. It's your burden. It's your burden. I know. I know. So so were we on this? Okay. Wait. So let's hold up. So you have not only a JD from UVA's law school, you have an MBA from the Darden School. And you are on The Hinge, which is really just Hinge, like apparently looking for love. And you don't find love. Instead, you find a woman with a boyfriend who happens to be a casting agent for a reality TV show who recognizes you immediately as a nice guy, which apparently is in very short supply. And she thinks you're going to be perfect for this as yet untitled

dating show, which becomes FBoy Island. That's correct, Melissa. Yeah, it's a wild, wild, wild story. To sleep, perchance to dream. That is the dream. That's the dream. And it was funny, though, because at the time, so I've been working for three years. And so I went to law school because of John Grisham books. And then I kind of thought initially in the beginning, you know, advice for new students, you know, that I probably want to go down a transactional route. And then I started talking to people. I have an older brother who's eight years older. So he has had some friends who are mid-level attorneys doing transactional work. And I would talk to them and they're like, look, you know, this is not the life that you want to be living. So if you think you want to do business stuff,

apply to the business school, see if you can do a JD MBA. So fortunately, I was accepted to Darden and turned it into four years in Charlottesville. So it was kind of a win all around except for the loans that I had to take out to pay for that. So that's why I came to Wall Street. But so, you know, I kind of come up here and then I get cast for this. And I had at work, I'd been getting reviews that were like, hey, great to work with. Love you. But have you ever thought about, you know, doing broadcast television? And I hadn't. Then this this opportunity via Hinge came up and I was like, oh, this could kind of be an interesting way to take a two month break, then also see if I like

being on camera and would be something I like to do. But I found out it was a comedy and, you know, it was the whole idea of the show is it's a parody of a normal dating show. But it's representative of what modern dating is like, that you're going to have some nice guys and you're going to have some F boys. And it's up to, you know, you to figure out who's who and whose intentions are pure and whose aren't. So that was something that I was like, you know, I go and tell a few jokes. And it was funny, because at UVA, one of my favorite experiences there was being part of the libel show, which is a comedy show that's put on by law students at UVA. And I think it's it's a little over 100 years old, actually. So it's one of like the longest running things. And it's kind of opportunity for students to be able to put their massive brains to work doing something other than analyzing cases. And so it would just be this hilarious, you know, multiple scene parody of making fun of the law school experience, law in general, and especially the professors.

And I'm not sure if either of you know Anne Coughlin, but as my final act in the libel show in 2018, when I graduated, I dressed in drag as Anne Coughlin. I can send you the picture. I love it. And I honestly, we look spot on and it was hilarious. So we would just do funny stuff like that. I see it. I see it. And so that was an experience that for me, it kind of like took me out of a shell, put me on a stage. It was like, OK, you know, I kind of like this performance act, the comedy side. This is great. So when FBoy Island came about, you know, I thought back to my experience at UVA and the libel show.

I was like, hey, you know, I got a little bit of background in this. So I think I'm ready for it. I don't think it's just libel show that got you ready for FBoy Island. I'm going to posit to you, Mark, that law school is perhaps the best training for FBoy Island. Because what is law school but being thrown into an unfamiliar environment where you instantly have to ferret out who's good, who's bad, who you're going to hang with, who's going to help you out in a tight spot, and who's going to utterly gut you if you give them an opportunity. And, you know, who's going to win the challenge at the end? And wind up with the big prize, which, you know, at the end of law school is a JD and, you know, fame as a lawyer. But here on FBoy Island is the heart of either CJ, Nakia, or Sarah, or alternatively, some big pot of money because you've convinced one of these women that you're actually a nice boy when in fact you are an FBoy.

You described that perfectly. And I honestly think law school is the best training for anything. And it's funny and you can say so many jokes about lawyers. But I do think law school was something for me that I always wanted to be a lawyer, but I didn't really kind of understand that the value that going to law school would have for me in terms of my career in finance, but also just in general in life, you know, you understand how to analyze arguments from both sides, which I think is something that, especially in these polarizing times, not many people have. And you're exposed to different groups of people, but you're also kind of taught to learn different aspects and perspectives from

various arguments over time. And so for me, it was an amazing academic experience. I think, you know, if you're going from undergrad to law school, you're focused on, you know, you can be a finance major, sociology major, whatever, but you're learning kind of very narrow range of subjects. And, you know, who knows what you're actually learning. But in law school, you know, you're doing everything from international shoe to antitrust to God knows what. And I always thought that, you know, anyone who goes to law school would be great at Jeopardy after just all the random facts that you pick up on with the 1L cases. So, do you know who was on Jeopardy? Who? You have to answer in the form of a question. When were you on? I need to watch that. It was well before law school. I

did it when I was a teenager. But I think you're exactly right. I'm just going to point out that you are not the first law student to actually go on a reality show and be successful. You know, when I was in law school, this is like many moons ago, Yul Kwon, I think he actually won Survivor. He was like a couple classes ahead of me at Yale. There was a guy at Harvard Law School who did it. And then another guy, I think his name was John Cochran, who was on Survivor. Rachel Lindsay was the Bachelorette. I mean, example after example.

I mean, these casting agents don't need to go on Hinge. They need to come to Orientation. Yeah, or just go on LinkedIn, Orientate. Yeah, you know, they can give the speech, look to your left, look to your right, by the end of the year, one of you is going to be gone. One of these people is an F-boy. Yeah, one is an F-boy.

Exactly, exactly. Well, what I love about the future idea for the franchise, because it got renewed for a second season, is to do an F girl island and then to do an LGBT island. And it's just like you have this whole franchise because it's not just something that only applies to men, I think it would be hilarious and very entertaining because to me, one of the things and I actually I wrote a I have a guest article coming out in the L.A. Times within the next week about my experience on it and how eye opening it was, because I think when you think about racial diversity in reality TV, not really there. Right. And they did a phenomenal job casting, whether it be Hinge or people applying in terms of getting people from all walks of life, getting people from all different

socioeconomic backgrounds, careers, and with the exception, I would say, three million followers. He has three million followers on TikTok, which is wild because I had like 600 Instagram followers going into the show. And then I was pursuing CJ Franco, who, you know, is an influencer. And I was like, honestly, what actually is an influencer? Like, how do you how do you do it? So it was, you know, it was a phenomenal and eye opening experience. But I think it was something that in watching the show, it's like, OK, you look at us, it's like like how the hell are all these guys together living on these twin wooden bunk beds and how did they get them but we all became very good friends and it was funny because the the production team would get irritated sometimes at how much we were just

enjoying hanging out with all the guys rather than just having to go pursue the women so it's funny women were a little boring, I'm going to say. Mm-hmm. One of the women were boring. One of, one of, one of. Yep, I'm reading between the lines there. She also had a very bad picker. She could not tell an F-boy from a nice boy to save her life. I was like, girl.

All of the signs were there. All of the signs. So Garrett Morowski, we were next to each other in quarantine for 14 days. So we were kind of isolated in these hotel rooms. And he, so, you know, you're there for 14 days. The only other person I could talk to essentially is him because our balconies were adjacent to each other. And I first met him and I was kind of, it was a wild experience. I'd never met anyone who was that kind of L.A. and very –

So L.A. He is himself. So L.A. It's like if you were to have aliens design a caricature of what you had envisioned someone from L.A. to be, it would be him. Do you think he fell in love with her for real or was that all part of the act? He does have acting experience. What a diplomatic answer. So I don't want to change the subject from this because I don't want to give our listeners

too many spoilers. But I do want to return to something you said, Mark, which is about how wonderful law school is for preparation for really like any future plans or different future plans that people might have. And Melissa and I are educators. So just drawing on, you know, some of your recent experiences, I guess I'm curious to know, in a contracts class, how would you advise students if they were presented with a contract to participate in an unnamed dating show? Should they say yes? Should they say no? Or should they ask for more information?

Like what is the life lesson that we as educators should be trying to impart to our students? That is a phenomenal question. I think in life, whenever anyone gets any contract, you should be skeptical of it. Especially when it says untitled dating show. Exactly. And it has Warner Brothers at the top and the, you know, addresses in Burbank. Always be very skeptical. And so the contract I got, it was about 45 pages long. And so I read through it and I was a little bit shy. It's like, who would sign this? Most people read through it or don't and just sign it immediately. And that's

how people on reality TV do it. What happens is it then really comes to affect you afterwards. And so with this contract, things that I was kind of concerned about was monetization for things afterwards, what you can participate in media wise, and what is this going to do to you outside of just being on this show that's going to be for two months. And so having been on the show now, with the reception being out there, people have come to me who are on the show and said, okay, you know, I didn't get as many followers as I wanted. Can I break this contract? And it's like, no, dude, you can't break the contract because you signed it prior to the show you're like oh honey no yeah and it's like so you think you can go on HBO's dating show then

you're gonna go on too hot to handle or love island or something and it's like you know you should have read through it but I was able to negotiate a few things that I thought uh you know were a little too onerous and ultimately like came to something that I was comfortable with. I mean, in terms of going on reality TV and signing a contract for reality TV, you have to think, okay, I am giving away how this is going to be edited.

I have no control over that. I can control myself and my actions on the show. But when it comes to how they're going to portray you, uh-uh. So for me, like I gave this great speech on feminism, the role of vulnerability. They didn't air it. And so I'm shocked. Do you want to give that speech now? Yeah, well, it was it was it was essentially so I was getting called up for elimination and the bottom two would have to give a speech. And so my thought process, okay, if I can save myself in this unscripted show and give a really good speech, okay, I'm going to go do it.

So I kind of had a few bullets in my head of what I was going to say. And with CJ Franco, who's a very kind of alpha female, who I think intimidates a lot of men, and especially men on the show, I kind of gave a speech that was talking about how both my parents worked and through them, I was able to kind of see a dual relationship where they're both, you know, working 50-50 in whatever tasks may be at home together and, you know, through their work to raise a family and how important I think it is to have that 50-50 relationship for both people in one. And to be clear, you do not have acting experience.

No, just the libel show. Just the libel show. I have public speaking experience through law school, but I would say that it did not come out well when I was doing my moot court tryout. So unfortunately. What is moot court compared to FBoy Island, really? That was just a stepping stone, right? Better to air in moot court so you can compared to FBoy Island, really? That was just a stepping stone, right? Better to air in moot court so you can fly in FBoy Island. You walked in moot court so you could run on FBoy Island. I love it. I love that.

So did she buy the speech? Was CJ receptive? Oh, yeah. I got a round of applause after with everyone. It was phenomenal. And then I still ended up getting eliminated. And then it was kind of like very dramatic out of a movie. They're like filming my walkout.

And then CJ came to the balcony above the scene where it took place. She's like, you have to understand, I don't have total control of things like you may think. And I'm like, it's fine. At this point, I didn't know when I was being eliminated that I was going to go live in a castle uh which i definitely have to show so the nice boy grotto so he does need to be a nice guy one of my favorite scenes is the scene of you making the smoothie in which you and someone else were throwing various smoothie making oh i'm in the cake one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but throwing the various ingredients at one another in the nice guy grotto. It was just the nice guy grotto. You all genuinely seem to be having more fun once you are eliminated and allowed to just hang out with each other.

Absolutely. Because you remove that competitive tension. It's kind of like being a summer associate at a law firm. You know, everyone's going to get an offer for the most part. And you just kind of go to the events, have a big lunch, and hang out. Nice guy Grotto is the summer associateship. Exactly. What is Limbro then? So tell us about Limbro. It'd be like walking into a Federalist Society meeting for the free Chick-fil-A

and then having to stay to listen to the speech, which happened to me once. And I was like, it's not worth the free Chick-fil-A. Mark, you are speaking my language. I once got food poisoning at a Federalist Society event. So these are the things that listeners need to know. Again, just thinking about the parallels between law school and FBoy Island. Exactly. Yeah. I think I made that mistake in October of my 1L year. And then I just realized I'm just going to walk home and make a sandwich every day now instead of that, because no free sandwich is really free. So I have a question then. So there are things that you could control on FBoy Island and obviously

things that were out of your control, including the edit that you got. But what of the things in your control were your clothing choices? So one, this is not shade. I admired everything you did. Like, I mean, you came out blazing in a blazer. And I want to know, one, where did that pink and green palm tree blazer come from? Cause it's fabulous to what did the other guys say about your sartorial choices? Because I did not count a number of shirts among that group. And you were not only in a shirt, but in a blazer.

So, so going in, you know, I knew it was a comedy and I actually found out this was probably three weeks ago or so I'm in a group chat with, with everyone and some of the comedy. And I actually found out, this was probably three weeks ago or so. I'm in a group chat with everyone and some of the producers. And someone had replied to, I think it was BuzzFeed that had the first review of the show. And they weren't that favorable. They're like, it doesn't make sense. It's almost like it's a joke. And it's like, well, it is a joke.

But we started replying in the group chat. One of the kids goes, wait, this show was a parody? And then I realized not everyone was kind of in on that, which was interesting. And but so, you know, I knew it was a joke. And then also I'm normally wearing like suits and blazers for work. But I knew that going on to a tropical island like that would be very entertaining to bring a few. And the producers were super on board. And if I had known how popular they would be, I would have brought more. But they basically the Vineyard Vines blazer, the pink and green one that I had, I got that the day before I left for the Caymans, because kind of solidified

everything with my work and then with Warner Brothers in early February. And then I ultimately ran the idea past my parents. And they were surprisingly receptive to it. And my dad was like, my father's a military psychologist and he's more conservative. My mother's more liberal. So I was expecting my dad to be like, don't do this. But my mom was the one who was like, I don't know. You can't really control these things.

So my dad was like, honestly, do it. You may learn something about yourself. So I tell my parents and then I have like a week to get a bunch of stuff for the show. So I was at a mall in New Jersey because I was having to get bathing suits for the show. Short Hills? Was it the Short Hills mall? Yeah, it was the Short Hills mall. Yep. And because I only had one pair of swim trunks prior to this. Oh no, you definitely needed more swim trunks for this. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so they sent us a packing list. Oh, no, you definitely needed more swim trunks for this. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so they sent us a packing list. I'm like, it looks like I need nine more pairs of swim trunks. So I'm at this mall and I

see this blazer at Vineyard Vines. I'm like, that's ridiculous. And I want that. So I walk over. It was two thirds off. So I got it for $75. And it was the best investment I ever made. I mean, who else is buying that in February? So during a global pandemic. I loved it. I just like, I'm no shade at all, Mark. I'm teaching my first class in the classroom in like a year and a half tomorrow

and I'm legitimately wearing a blazer that has birds all over it. So I see you, I loved it. I wanted to buy one for my husband. It's such a great look. You look fantastic. I have so many questions about the sartorial choices. I mean, there's so many men who only button their shirt at the navel.

And I have questions about that. Greg, does he use beard oil? He talked a little bit about oiling his beard, but I didn't actually see that happening. But there were a lot of like very tight facial hair issues going on. Like people were very precise in their facial hair grooming. Well, and it was funny because so we were living in at this resort. It was called the cottages that it was, you know, normally very nice, like one bedroom places. And they removed all of the nice beds and they put four beds in a room, two bunk beds. And so imagine four guys on a reality TV show having to use one bathroom to get ready. So I remember it would be like me, Anthony, Colin, and Andrew was our other roommate at the time and he'd been eliminated. But, you know,

we'd have to start getting ready if it was seven o'clock, let's say like two hours in advance of five, because someone would need to iron their shirts. I ended up usually doing all the ironing and teaching a few people how to iron. And then other people need to shave other people would need to do whatever. And it was just this whole ordeal. So for four guys, one bathroom reality TV kind of wild, but Greg does use beard oil and he's starting his own beard oil company or doing a partnership with one, I believe. So that's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, exactly. It's very on brand, right? So he should definitely send some product to James Harden. Exactly. Exactly. When I when I saw Greg, I was like, that's I have not seen a beard like that in person ever. I've only seen James Harden's on TV.

So well-mysterized. You could see it on the screen. It was truly fabulous. Back to law school. It goes without saying that law school is populated, on the one hand, by some very nice boys. Like I, for example, met my husband on the first day of law school. He was a nice boy. There are also F boys in law school.

So how does the average law student discern between those who belong in the nice boy grotto and those who are F boys and belong in limbo? I think that determination is something that comes out with time. I think the unique thing about law school is I remember showing up and, you know, it's a super intimidating environment day one. You're around people who, you know, they've known that they've wanted to go to law school for a long time, for the most part. And it's something that you're judged solely on your class rank for the most part, whether you want to clerk or you want to get a big law job. And everyone kind of knows, OK, if I'm going to X school, here's the employment statistics. So I need to be above X percentage, whatever. And, you know, that tension is there from day one. And I think you definitely see people's

true colors come out over time. But I would say it takes about a semester to really get to know someone, like, especially when it's December, right during the first 1L finals. And, you know, someone who seems cool, calm and collected, maybe they start losing it then. And, you know, other people who were super quiet, they end up, you know, getting all A's in classes and coming out swinging with a bunch of then the kind of beginning of the second semester. But I think that second semester point is when you're very much able to make a judgment call. But also, if you're going to law school, you should really just focus during fall of 1L, and then you can focus on dating after that, I think. That would be my advice to new 1Ls. Focus on dating after 1L. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No, after the fall of 1L. After the fall of 1L. I think the spring's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So when I went to law school, they had this thing called – this sort of idea they called the January man. And the January man was someone that you would not have looked twice at in September. But by January, it's cold.

You've been in the books for a long time. Everyone starts looking better. Like, is that really why you want to do this? I'm not saying if it's true like being on FBoy Island where you're just around this unique group of self-selecting individuals that's very different in some ways good, in some ways bad than the normal population. Something that FBoy Island had was some remedial opportunities slash therapy for F boys. Rehabilitation. Exactly. Like, is there a similar opportunity during law school for, let's say, some F students to try and make themselves into better people? And how might they go about that? So that's funny.

And what initially came to mind when I heard that question was that, you know, if you don't make law review by grading on, you can always write on. So there is a remedial opportunity for that. But I think something that's important for people to do is kind of if things don't work out as you first plan them, you know, everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to be number one in their class, clerk for, you know, whoever, and then just go off and change the world. But I think it's something that it's important to just always kind of remember your original intentions for going to law school. And like, one of the things

I always hated to see was someone who, you know, goes in wanting to do some type of public interest law, and then, you know, a semester in switching to corporate law. And I think a lot of people do lose themselves, because it's such a high pressure environment. You know, if you're not from a family of lawyers, no one's really going to kind of get what you're going through. And that just to be able to kind of have a neutral perspective, remove yourself and be able to reset always creates an opportunity for redemption. But by being able to kind of be involved in activities and groups that, you know, aside from like a law review or whatever journal that kind of really actually pique your interest, I think is something that's super important to me, or even just to take classes outside of what

you normally would for whatever path you're going down. Maybe start a student group for aspiring reality television show contestants, right? Exactly. Exactly. I feel like UVA would be a good place to start that group. It would be a great place for a reality TV show. Like, full stop. Someone get Risa Goluboff on the phone. So I noticed on FBoy Island that there are a couple of things that happened, I think, just provide sort of nuggets of advice for law students. So one, you know, there was a very infamous dancing episode where one of the contestants danced in such a way that he later said, you know, his mama might be really embarrassed if she saw it.

So like, that's one bit of advice. Don't do anything in law school that would embarrass your mother or your father. And that statement from Cam, he was he was in the Chippendales. So I'm not sure where that came from. He was also a realtor, though. Yeah, well, you got it. You got to be versatile in this economy, you know, be able. Yeah. But I thought that was like, like, when he when he apologized for it and said, you know, like, he regretted it because like, this is not the person his mother would want to see on television. You know, like that's just good advice. Like don't do anything you wouldn't want your mom or dad to see in law school.

So that seemed to ring true. You know, another piece of advice is sort of law school is three years. But your reputation as a lawyer is for a long time. And you begin building that reputation while you were in law school so i remember when um i guess colin and new garrett got into a fight or colin and colin was fighting with a lot of people like let's be honest yeah colin and new jared maybe i so it was it was it was og jared and then new jared and actually new New Jared was staying with me two nights ago. Oh, wow.

New Jared, like, who's, like, basically a doppelganger for Russell Wilson. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, the point of all of this is, like, don't start fights in law school because, like, those people will remember you for forever. Like, this is not the place to get in some beef over a guy or a woman or whatever. Like, just, like, this is a professional space and you're carrying that professional relationship with you forever. Exactly. And, you know, I think it's a

little bit two sided, though, because I think one, at least for me, like the importance of your network from law school. And I think one of the things that's really cool is that, you know, you have a lot of people who will go on to be lawyers, you know, most will immediately after graduation, but then you're going to start to see people getting involved in public life and just doing a broad array of things. So it's always important to, you know, keep up with people after you've made a good impression. But I also think too, you know, you never want to be that guy who is trying to run for president and is just kind of, you know, a stickler and thinking that they're holier than thou. So, you know, you want to be personable with people and get to know people, especially outside the classroom.

And I think one of the great things about UVA is that there are a lot of social opportunities to really be able to get to know people who otherwise, you know, you wouldn't if you're just at a bar or something. And so I think some of the best friendships I have from the law school were with people who, you know, you would never really think to engage in a conversation because you don't think you have that much in common. And I think that was also true about FBoy Island is that some of my best friendships from there with people who, if you were to look at us, you know, you would never think we would be friends in real life. And so by forcing yourself initially to just get to know different people, you never know what you may learn. You never know, you know, if you may strike up a new friendship. So if you had to pick a Supreme Court justice or pick the Supreme Court justice most likely to appear on FBoy Island, who would it be? Easy. It's Kavanaugh. Easiest question of the day. Like, is this a serious? This is why, this is why when we found out you were a graduate of UVA Law, our listeners were like, you need to have Mark on the show.

They knew this was the crossover that America needed. Exactly. And, you know, having gone to a it was a co-ed Catholic school in outside of D.C. just as Kavanaugh did. But he went to Georgetown Prep, which is just single sex. I think if you were to take him in high school, he would be on FBoy Island, probably get eliminated. Second episode, if not the first. And then he'd be stuck in in in prison or the Federalist meeting uh with no chick-fil-a lunch so historic f-boys on the court like roger tani yeah well well i actually have a funny story um that you guys will both appreciate because when you said historic i was i was gonna have to throw scalia out there um because his son was my priest

growing up. And I didn't know who Scalia was when I first went to law school, like, or I didn't know who this individual was that when I would go to church with my dad and there's a, an older man falling asleep in the back of the church every Sunday, like, who's that guy come to find out? Oh, that's Justice Scalia. Absolutely hilarious. He would be up there. I don't know if he'd make it fully through casting, though. He may not have enough F-boy tendencies. Yeah, that's probably right. That's probably right.

The thought of Justice Kavanaugh in Limbro, though. It's so good. Yeah, that's probably something we will be returning to in future episodes, because I think there's more to say there. With Peter, DaVidge. I would love, love just to see the interaction. You just throw them in there with the rest of us and just see what happens. It would be honestly the reality TV season two idea.

Yeah, it's been renewed. Future seasons. Supreme Court goes to F-Boy Island. Exactly. Exactly. Who who knows who came here with good intentions? Why couldn't any of these women count? Because you started off with 24 men and they were evenly divided between nice boys and F-Boys. So if you like, I think any woman going to law school would be like, I'm just going to write these names down and then I'm going to like check them off and I'm going to know who's an F boy and then I'm going to get rid of them. But like, why couldn't these women count? Well, I think I think that some of them, you know, which is also representative of real life, you know, they didn't all want nice guys.

And I think that, you know, thank you for saying that. Yeah. So that's why I was eliminated. But I think that's true in real life. Sometimes people want the excitement, the allure of someone who's a little bit of a bad boy. And that can either go very well if you help to reform them or then you just end up like one contestant looking kind of like an idiot on television for ignoring all the red flags. So I'm going to let that one go because we all know I have thoughts. This show was such a gift in the pandemic, like so much fun to watch.

You guys were fantastic. So thank you. Thank you for being a part of this epic cultural moment. Absolutely. Our producer, Melody, actually got me a cameo from one of the nice guys on the show, Josh, to cheer me on as I was finishing my tenure file. So this really was like the immersive experience at one point during the pandemic for, turns out, a lot of law school students and law school professors.

Exactly. I'm just glad that I could be here to help aid with that. It was funny because UVA, they published this article the other day about a guy who's from my class who he was selected to clerk, I think, for Roberts. But anyway, they're like, oh, UVA, we're fifth in terms of placement for Supreme Court clerks. I'm like, well, actually, you're number one in terms of placement for law schools in F-Boy Island. So they should be running with that. Why isn't Risa Goluboff putting this on the website? Like, this is the statistic.

I'm not sure. We're giving them a bunch of free PR. Because, I mean, we're always giving UVA free PR, but I mean, this is just a missed opportunity. Like first in F boy island placements. I couldn't agree more. You know, I really think that they need to, this could help them appeal to a bunch of different new applicants.

So I think you should be the commencement speaker, Mark. I'm just going to put that out there. I think so too. I think so too. Put that out there. We could have Nikki Glaser give the intro and then just take it from there. I mean, she actually, I think, really was the winner of FBoy Island. Like, her career was the winner.

But, yeah. Absolutely. I'm going to start that petition right now. I love it. Mark for commencement speaker. Mark for commencement speaker and Nikki Glaser for new chief public information officer of the Supreme Court, right? I think that that is the branding and messaging that the Supreme Court needs. I think so, too.

It really helped to appeal to a younger demographic, get some new people interested, and combine a little bit of a comedic touch with a serious element. And she's someone who can force people to make decisions. And we know that there have been situations where the Supreme Court has needed to make a decision. Or they declined to make a decision. I think Nikki would have been like, we're not leaving until we figure this out. And she would also force them to explain themselves, right? She did.

She did that. Just to say, I'm reformed or I'm a nice guy. She's like, I need to see the progress. I need to hear. Exactly. Exactly. The best explanation of reformation had to have been Charlie. That was absolutely wild to watch that happen for Sam.

Chef's kiss. Chef's kiss. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just, oh, it was amazing. And so did you notice how he didn't go into Limbro with the rest of the eliminated? Where was he? Was he just wandering in the wilderness all night long?

There was a big issue in terms of what happened after that with all of the production team and his response and how he felt, which under the contract, everything could have been anticipated and the consequence of his actions could have been anticipated. And it's funny watching it now because people are like, oh, they can't use our casting tapes. And it's like,

yes, they legally can. Read the contract, Charlie. Yeah. Read the contract. So yeah, no. And you know, and we'll see how his progress is. Maybe they'll do a check-in or something on season two.

But I know a reunion has been floated. But a few minutes ago, I had a great thought. If they were to ever make anything with a Supreme Court reality TV, I would want real off-the-fly interviews with the clerks as they're writing the opinions to just hear the thought process. And then I want to see the pickup basketball games at lunch, too. Those would be my two big things. So we have our wish list. Mark is commencement speaker for UVA and some windows into the Supreme Court, you know, clerkship and justices, F.Y. Island style. So maybe we should wrap up.

Mark, thank you so much for making time for this episode and sharing your wisdom with law students, our listeners, and aspiring F. Boy Island contestants, including you, Justice Kavanaugh, if you're listening. Thank you to our producer, Melody Rowell. Thanks to Eddie Cooper for making our music. I'm sorry, Sam Alito, we didn't really see a way that you might factor in or figure into FBoy Island, but we are available for some consulting. But really, thank you, Mark. This was a delightful episode, a rare bright spot in what has been a pretty dark moment for the Supreme Court and the culture surrounding it. So thank you so much.

Well, thank you both so much. I really appreciate this. This has been phenomenal. So I can't wait to hear it. And I'm going to make a little meme that I think you guys will enjoy of something we discussed, and you'll get a kick of it. Cannot wait.