Strictly Anonymous Confessions - 1194 - Hotwifing and Cuckolding, Non-Monogamy and More w/Dr. David Ley author of Insatiable Wives

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Dr David Ley, author of Insatiable Wives: Women who Stray and the Men Who Love Them called in to talk all about hotwifing, cuckolding, non-monogamy and more. Tune in to hear him discuss all the details including how and why he wrote the Insatiable Wives which was called the Bible of cuckolding and hotwifing, how his groundbreaking book was received,, how he felt about cuckolding before he studied it and how and why his views changed, the percentage of men who enjoy watching their partners with other men and the percentage of women who want to be watched by their partners, cuckqueaning and why women are into watching their partners with others too, the many reasons men are into cuckolding,  how and why he doesn’t believe in sex addiction, how and why labels can be helpful, how and why he decided to focus on sex when he became and clinical psychologist, where he found the cuckolds he researched for his book, how the media and others use sexual anxiety and insecurity to manipulate people, what research shows about non monogamous couples, why rules in non monogamy tend to go out the window over time,  the different styles of non-monogamy and what draws people to one style or the other, plus a whole lot more. To purchase his Book: Insatiable Wives: Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them, click here: https://amzn.to/4fxSg3H **To see HOT pics of my female guests + hear anonymous confessions + get all the episodes early and AD FREE, join my Patreon! It's only $7 a month and you can cancel at any time. You can sign up here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/StrictlyAnonymousPodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and when you join, I'll throw in a complimentary link to my private Discord! MY BOOK IS NOW OUT FOR PRE-ORDER!!!! Strictly Anonymous Confessions: Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. A bunch of short, super sexy, TRUE stories. GET YOUR COPY NOW: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/4i7hBCd⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  To join SDC and get a FREE Trial! click here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.sdc.com/?ref=37712⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or go to SDC.com and use my code 37712  Want to be on the show? Email me at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and click on "Be on the Show" Have something quick you want to confess while remaining anonymous? Call the CONFESSIONS hotline at 347-420-3579. You can call 24/7. All voices are changed.  Sponsors:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://viia.co/STRICTLYANON⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try VIIA and use code STRICTLYANON for great SEX and sleep ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://butterwellness.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Use the code “STRICTLY” at checkout for 20% off your entire order ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://liferx.md⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Start your transformation now and get $50 OFF your first month, use code: ANONYMOUS ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://vb.health⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ To get 10% off Load Boost and Drive Boost by VB Health use code: STRICTLY ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bluechew.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get your first month of the new Blewchew Max FREE! use code: STRICTLYANON ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://beducate.me/pd2520-anonymous⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Use code: ANONYMOUS to get 50% off your yearly pass plus get a 14-day money-back guarantee Follow me! Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/strictanonymous/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/strictanonymous?lang=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Everything else ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/Strictlyanonymouspodcas⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I change everyone's voices. Just send me an email, strictly anonymous podcast. Atgmail.com. Or go to my website, strictly anonymouspodcast.com and click on Be on the Show. If you want to call the Confessions hotline and leave a naughty confession, you could do that 247. The number's 347-4579. That's 347-4-203579. Some of those confessions make it on to a confessions episode where me and Erica or another co-host talk about them.

all the rest go on to my Patreon. Now my Patreon is a really great deal, especially if you don't like my intros. They get all my episodes early, ad free, and now intro free, okay? You also get to see all the hot anonymous picks of all of my guests, plus you get Q&As, plus you get,

if you sign up, I will throw in complimentary access to my Discord. I offer a couple different ways to get into my Discord. My Discord is free, but I will send you the link if you either sign up for my Patreon, I'll throw it in, or if you want to buy my book, I have a book coming out. It's up for sale now for pre-order. It's coming out October 14th, but you could get it now. And if you get it now and send me a pick of your screenshot,

I'll also give you my Discord. Like, my Discord is super fun. There's over 5,000 people in there. You get to do whatever you want over there. I don't get involved in my Discord, but what's fun about my Discord is everyone gets to talk to each other. It's super naughty, it's super fun. There's a whole booty pick contest right now that you could sign up and join that you could sign up for or take part in. It ends the end of this month so you still have time. Like I said, there's a couple ways to get in. You could also get in by being on my show. Everyone who calls into my show gets a link to my Discord. So if you want to get into that, like I said, do all the things I said, all the links and to everything is in the description. The last thing I want to tell you about is I do have a free trial to anyone that wants to sign up for SDC.

Okay. SDC is like the world's largest adult online dating site, but you also get to learn about all the stuff that's going on in your area. Okay, you also get educational information. They tell you everything you need to know is on SDC.com. If you want the free trial, use my code 37712 or the easiest thing to do is go to the description and click. I'm like, oh, and I want to tell you about my Patreon. Sometimes if you go and Google it yourself, you're not going to see it because it's like 18 plus. So just click on the link in the description to find my patron and it'll take you where you need to be. So anyway, today I have on Dr. David Lay. Oh my God, I'm obsessed with him and you're going to be obsessed with him. If you don't know him, he's been talking about the stuff that I'm talking about on my show as an expert, though, since the dawn of time. I mean, he literally had a book out on hot wiping and cuckolding in 2009, okay, called Insatiable Wives. He's one of the first person that went in and started studying that. And to me, that was like done a long time ago before like I knew about it and I mean it's much more mainstream now he was one of the first people talking about he is an expert and that's what I love about him like he is here to say a lot of the

things that I think people say on my show but he says it as an expert someone who has studied this stuff he has talked to couples that are non monogamous he has you know done the research on guys that are into cuckolding and he talked about how some of his friends are starting to do the you know the cuck queening the women that do it but we talk all about all of that kind of stuff. It's such an interesting conversation. I wanted to go on for like 10 more hours. Okay,

you're going to want it to. Hopefully, I'm sure he'll come back on my show. He's like really fucking smart. And like I said, he did the research and you're going to be fascinated by the research that he did. So if you love my show and you love the stories,

you're going to love this episode because he talks about everything we talk about on my show. So I'm going to get right to it. Oh, and if you're going to want to buy his fucking books or use him as a therapist, so I'm going to have all of his links in the description. Okay,

so make sure if you're just, driving and you're listening to this and you want to contact him or you want to buy his book the links will be in the description but anyway i'm going to be right back on with dr david lay uh hi dr david lay welcome to the strictly anonymous podcast how are you today hi gathy thanks for having me no thanks for coming on i've wanted you on for a long time because uh you are uh sex and you're you're psychologist you have a phd in front of your name and i have to tell you i always say like when i'm looking for a psychologist i will not get one unless they have the PhD in front of their name. You're a clinical psychologist who specializes in like sex, sex, right?

Like, I mean, that's you're a sex therapist as well. You're a public speaker. I, to me, you're well known in this world. You have a couple books that I was like, oh, my God, we have, we could discuss all of these to do an episode on each one. You talk a lot about sex addiction. You talk about porn. And you wrote a whole book called Insatiual Wives, Women who Stray and Men

Who Love Them. Like, I, you know, that's like all the whole cuckold. hot wife thing, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ended of writing that book after I encountered some couples that were living that lifestyle. And this was before it was very mainstream, before it was public. And I will confess that, you know, many people don't know that most therapists and psychologists have very little training in sexuality.

I was the same, had very little training in sexuality. First time I encountered these couples that were living the hot wife or cuckold lifestyle, my initial reaction was, you know, that that's fucking crazy. That can't be healthy. Yeah. But the funny thing was that these were remarkably healthy couples, incredible communication skills, decades-long marriages, very successful careers, successful families. And it made, it forced me to question, why did I assume that this must be unhealthy? And I realized that I had allowed, you know, bias around monogamy and sexuality and promiscuity.

female sexuality to intrude into my clinical thinking. And unfortunately, a lot of clinicians do that. Kinsey said it best that the definition of a nymphomaniac or a sex addict is anybody who has more sex or different sex than the therapist. You know, if your patients are getting laid more than you, clearly there's something wrong with them, not you're not doing the therapist. And so I ended up writing that book. I interviewed couples around the world that practiced his lifestyle.

and and, you know, and wrote the book just kind of describing what these people are doing. And years later, people tell me that it's called the Bible of cuckolding in that community, which is, which is a little interesting. Listen, I'm obsessed with the fact that this was written in 2009. So you were so ahead of the game as far as I'm concerned because I like you in the regular world. I always had like a lot of guy friends. I was very open sexually. So people will tell me everything and what they were into.

It's the same thing like I'm doing on my show, but I did it my. regular life right but not one fucking guy ever was like yeah I love you know my I really want my girl to go fuck another guy while I watch or anything I had never heard about it but when I started my podcast I had this one guy on the first guy that called in with this king John people like were obsessed with him I found out on the line he was like lying and full of shit but it happened to be the most downloaded episodes I did right from the get go and that's when I started to realize like there are so many guys that are into this and I'm like how did I not know but this is like after your book came out. So for you as a, and for you as a therapist to go out there with this kind of book,

like, how was it received and how did your peers feel about like what you were talking about? Boy, that's a good question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that, Kathy. That's good. You know, people read it voraciously. And I actually had, I actually had a former president of the American Psychological Association write me on the side and say he was so glad that I had written the book because this had always been his king, but he couldn't talk to other psychologists or therapist about it because of getting judged. But he could obviously talk to me. Books are kind of like children. You know, you write them, you put a lot of work into them, you put them out there, and then what happens to the book is really on its own.

Yeah, totally. Honestly, that book really changed my career. It launched me into this realm of talking about sexuality, challenging morality that masquerades as clinical judgment. And yeah, I mean, that book, honestly, when it got turned into an audio book by my friend Rose Carraway, who reads audio erotica on the Kiss Me Quick podcast. Now, couples send me pictures. couples send me pictures of them listening to the audio book on road trips that they take together where they are using my book as an opportunity to decide whether they want to explore non-monogamy or not and cuckolding and hotwifing.

So that's the coolest thing to me is that my book has become a part of couples taking control of their sexuality, their life, and pulling it away from, you know, religious control, social and moral dictates around what their marriage is supposed to look like. That's the coolest thing to me. Yeah, and like literally when you told me that story in the beginning about that guy emailing you on the DL, I got the chills. And, you know, like when you say that and like here we are talking about like guys like

telling you that he loves to have his girl fuck someone else, it's like, how can you get the chills? that's not that deep. But it is amazing that you put that out when you did. And, you know, you probably helped a lot of people. Yeah. And, you know, like you said, I mean, it was, it's interesting that that book came out, you know, 2009. And it was in advance of the, the cuckled hot wife thing becoming as mainstream and public as it is now. Dan Savage was honestly one of the only people that was talking about it back then because he got lots of letter requests for his Savage Love column. Oh, interesting.

Asking about cuckolding. And it was same kind of thing. Now, an interesting thing happened, though, because because it was such a unique, you know, kind of topic. Now, I deliberately wrote the book in a very academic style because it was such a salacious topic that I needed to be taken seriously. I didn't want people thinking that I was just some, some horny pervert sex therapist, you know,

masturbating in the corner. Yeah, writing erotica. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I got it. And but in the book I described as one guy that I interviewed who, he was just desperate to see his wife with, with other men, particularly black men.

And it went through three marriages. Now, where the wives were like, no, I'm not going to do that. Well, certainly we can talk about, you know, whether why it is somebody ends up, people end up marrying people that are not sexually compatible. I think that we we don't encourage couples and people to talk about sexual compatibility in an effective way so that they can really identify, you know, are we going to be a match on this? Yeah. But regardless, in the book I mentioned, you know, it would be really easy to diagnose this guy as a sex addict,

but I don't believe in sex addiction. And it was funny because that was the thing, honestly, that mainstream media at the time ended up wanting to talk about. Because I was the only psychologist that was really challenging the validity of the concept of sex addiction. And we had we had Tiger Woods, we had David Coveney, we had Harvey Weinstein, you know, who's that Anthony Wiener guy. We had all of these, we had all these celebrities claiming sex addiction when they got caught, you know, putting their penis somewhere they shouldn't. And I was the only one saying, this is not a real disorder, people. And that was what actually ended up getting more media attention out of that book. And then I ended writing my second book, The Mids of Sex addiction, because of that.

Yeah, that comes out like a couple years later. I feel like you could take that insatiable wives, like do a new cover and relaunch it now. And it would just be like as widely received, right, if not more, because it is so much more mainstream now. You know, you were just way ahead of your time. I know plenty of people listening to this podcast right now are going to go out and buy it, right? Because it might be the first time they're hearing about it. It's something that they're more interested about now because it is more mainstream. And people do talk about it a lot more than they did in 2009. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've, you got Jerry Falwell Jr., you know, watching his, watching his wife, you know, with the Goldaway, right? Yeah. And this is just kind of

everywhere now. It's pretty wild. Now, A colleague of mine, Justin Lay Miller, he's a social psychologist, and his research suggests that around 50 to 55 percent of men will report at some point fantasizing about watching their girlfriend or wife with another man. What's fascinating is that around 45 percent of women fantasize about being watched with another man by their husband or boyfriend. So there is this fascinating kind of match. The wild thing is when I wrote the book, again, it was very underground. People weren't talking about it. But what I found was that if you dig this story and this pattern has been around for millennia. There's nothing new here, but it was underground. People didn't talk

about it. And I found example after example, you know, throughout history of wives, you know, know, cuckolding their husbands, oftentimes with their husband's permission and encouragement. And but, but we didn't talk about it. You know, the, the, the, Shakespeare, you know, included this story in many of his plays, Anne Rand, who wrote, uh, Fountainhead. Yeah. You know, and created, you know, kind of modern sort of, you know, libertarianism, et cetera. She was cuckolding her husband. And again, people just, people just didn't talk about this. But now we are. So what I don't know is, is it happening more now because there's more public acceptance of it or is it happening as much as it has always happened, but now we're acknowledging. She was cuckolding her husband. And again, people just, people just didn't talk about this. But now we are.

So what I don't know is, is it happening more now because there's more public acceptance of it or is it happening as much as it has always happened? but now we're acknowledging it. That I don't know. If I wrote a new book, I might look at that. Well, I think it's because there's more acceptance and it's happening more because I'll just get a little personal. And my audience knows this who have heard my episodes before. Like I had, when I had my first cook queen on, like a woman who was like kind of into that,

right from the woman standpoint, she made me realize like that I had that kink, but I had never put it together until I heard it talked about. And then whenever I put an episode out, I get so much. many women saying, oh, I didn't ever realize like this was who I was, but now I do it. And so I think it's that people had it but didn't have a term for it and they didn't, so therefore they didn't talk about it and didn't put it on the table. So I think maybe there's more people into it. They always had it in them, but they didn't have a term. They didn't want to talk about it. They didn't bring it up. But now that it's more mainstream, maybe they are. Does that make sense?

I think so. I also am seeing younger people engaging. in some of these in some of these kinks or fantasy behaviors in ways that we hadn't really seen before. And I think some of that, some of that's coming from porn, some of that's coming from increased social acceptance of sexual diversity. But it's fascinating. You mentioned cut cleaning because that, you know, and wives who like to see or hear about their husbands with other women. That interestingly, historically has been very, very rare compared to cuckolding and husbands, wanting to see their wives of the men, a couple of colleagues of mine

are now doing some research on uncut-queenning trying to dig into this. And one of the things that I asked them to look at was, are these wives simply doing this or fetishizing this because their husband would cheat on them anyway if they didn't fetishize it? And what they found actually was that most of the wives into cut queening said that if they weren't into it, their husband wouldn't do it.

And so it's not that these wives are simply accepting that their husband's going to be unfaithful anyway. Instead, it really does seem like cuckolding to be this mutual, mutually satisfying exploration. Yeah, and that's what I want to know. I mean, because it's interesting that you would think maybe it's different because, you know, coming from the woman than the man because you did, I'm assuming when you were writing this book, you got into it and researched it, right? Like what did you find the psychological reasons for people being into this? And do you think it would be different from a man versus a woman? You know, there are lots of reasons for, sexuality is the most complicated, complex,

overdetermined human behavior. Right. And there's never, just one reason. Honestly, Kathy, it's funny when you reached out to me because I've listened to your podcast over the years, you know, on road trips and stuff. It's fascinating hearing some of the stories that people tell you. But there are lots of reasons why men are into cuckolding. Some of it is, you know, they are, you know, voyeurs and men tell me that, you know, their wife is their favorite porn star. They, they know when she is experiencing pleasure and they know she's not faking it. And they love to see her experiencing pleasure.

Some men say, you know, my wife's sexuality just outstrips mine. She can have 50 orgasms and I can have one and I can bring in other men and I can see her experience a level of pleasure that I alone can't give her. Yeah. Some men enjoy having the hot wife that other men want to be with. You know, I call it the King B syndrome where the man kind of gets, you know, pleasure and a sense of pride from having. the sexy wife that other men want to fuck, knowing that the wife is still going to go home with the husband. There's no Motown song, saves the last dance for me. And that, that again, you know, that is this story. For some men, it's about a repressed or suppressed bisexual desire. And so

the man can be with other men through the vehicle of his wife's body, you know, by going down on her, after she's been with another man, he can experience some bisexual pleasure without having to wrestle with, you know, am I by? Yeah, that's interesting. There's lots of things. I think one of the things that we're learning really now is the degree to which sexual sensation seeking really drives so many of these instincts, behaviors, fantasy lifestyles, etc. And sexual sensation seeking is, it's what it sounds like.

It's sexual adrenaline junkie kind of behavior. Now, it's related to sensation seeking in general. Sensation seeking in general is, again, just adrenaline junkie kind of stuff. But the thing is that we're born with this. Some people ride a roller coaster once and they're done. Some people want to ride all the rides. And it takes a lot of stimulation and excitement for them to reach a feeling of satiation. We see that in sexuality as well,

where, you know, some people, you know, are satisfied with, you know, monogamous vanilla sex with the lights off. Some people want the lights on, spotlights, trapeze bars, and a whole circus in the room. And what we know, though, at this point is that it's not that having lots of sex makes you that person. Instead, we have that kind of sex and pursue that kind of sex because that's the person. we were born to be. And that's one of the challenges I have with lots of arguments these days around where people are saying, oh, well, porn is changing people's sexual behaviors, et cetera. It may be to some degree.

But really what we think is these sexual opportunities, media experiences, et cetera, are allowing people to fulfill aspects of who they always were. Right. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I could just see a roller coaster and I feel feelings for it. Do you know what I mean? And hear it.

Like I get off on it, you know? And my son's the exact opposite. I just don't understand his brain. But we're just like wired differently right. And so I think, you know, and that makes sense. Like to me, the thought of being married when I was younger was like the most unappealing thing. Like I never had that vision, you know.

And I think it's because I just never thought I would ever be able to stay interested in something like what you just said when you were like the vanilla thing, same thing. You know, I start to not be able to breathe, you know. And so it's like, and that's just who I have always been, like you said. You know, it's not like a right or wrong thing, right? It's just like a personality type. Right. And as I said a moment ago, we don't, we don't support people to, you know, negotiate relationships and sexual compatibility. A lot of people don't realize or understand what, what you just said that about themselves. Yeah.

They don't, you know, and, and they think that there may be something wrong with them. Yeah. That vanilla sex, you know, is something that they get bored with. And so then they try and fit themselves into what they think they're supposed to be. And then they end up cheating. Then they end up, you know, ending the marriage because it's so, so stultifying. So, so, so, so suffocating. And if, if they better.

understood themselves and better understood what they want and negotiated that early on, then we could see more, you know, compatibility matches. We could see more win-win sort of relationships as people negotiate and define these sexual agreements from a place of self-awareness and, you know, negotiated respect and dignity within the relationship. I have a test that I developed that I call the sexual priorities test. And it asks people to identify what are the things that you need in sexuality, that you're going to be unhappy and disappointed and starved if it's not there. And then also, what are the things that completely turn you off?

And I give that test to couples to help them learn to, I understand to identify. identify and talk about, these are the things that I need to be satisfied in our sexual relationship. Now, can we make that work? The problem is that a lot of times I'll see couples that are having, you know, battles over their, over their sexual relationship. And they've never done this. They've never realized that the thing that I really need actually is the thing that turns you off. And then what happens? Yeah.

Then we're glad they're seeing a sex therapist, right? Because now we get to work through, okay, well, why does that turn you off? And also, why is this something that you feel like you need? Now I want to get behind the curtain is what I call it. And I want to talk about what are the feelings that come up around this behavior. And also, what do you think it means? You know, what are you getting out of this behavior, you know, having sex with multiple people? What are you getting out of that?

Is it excitement? Is it thrill? Or is it, you know, a feeling of attention and a feeling of, you know, acceptance by multiple people? When we find things like that, we can start talking about different ways to meet these needs. Yeah. With, you know, but with the other partner that is feeling disgusted by this. Well, you know, why? Well, because that would make me a slut.

And I, you know, I'm not a slut. Okay, well, tell me, tell me your feelings about, about, you know, being a slut. Tell me who taught you that. And let's unpack where those ideas come from. That's what therapy is and empowering people to take charge of these things and take control back from what they were taught when they were kids. Yeah, no. Listen, I think nowadays, like a lot of people are very anti-label, especially the older people, and I get it because by the time you're 50, you don't need a fucking label. You know who you are. You know, but I personally feel like I think all these freaking labels are great because when I was younger and was doing whatever the fuck I wanted, I didn't fit in any of the boxes. There was probably like three boxes that existed, right? And it just and I was, and I was, felt like dysfunctional, you know, when people thought I was a slut and like whatever, you know, back in those days, because there weren't all these labels. And I think when you're when you're young and you're growing up in your 20s and you're basically like an amoeba trying to figure out who you are.

It is really great to be able to put yourself in a place like everybody else. And eventually you don't need those labels anymore, I think, as you grow out of them. That's why I get why older people like, who the fuck needs all these labels. But I think they're really beneficial to the younger generation. And I think that that really helps people then be more open about who they are. So they get into these relationships and maybe, you know, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, if I'm still alive, I'm not going to be getting calls from people living. living double lives anymore.

You know what I mean? Because they're going to be able to be more upfront about what they're fucking into from the get-go. Right. I agree. I think that the labels, they do a couple of things. First, they increase people's understanding of the nuances of themselves. But it also, it also offers you the opportunity that, oh, it's not just you.

So there was this one guy that I treated who, he had been labeled as a sex addict by his wife and multiple therapists. he would engage in, you know, occasional bisexual behavior, going to glory holes in bathhouses and having sex with men. And as I worked with him, we explored, you know, what are you looking for? And ultimately, he said, I, you know, I enjoy sex with men because I can feel like I'm not in charge. I can feel overpowered when sex with women and my wife in particular. He has to be in charge. charge. But he said, I'm not interested in a relationship or love with other men. I'm just interested in sex. But I'm, you know, I'm only interested in love with women. And I said, oh,

you're, you're a heteronromantic bisexual, which is a term that describes that pattern. Perfectly, specifically. Exactly. Which is needed. Yeah. Yes. He was, he was, no, he was blown away. Yeah. That there was a term that could describe him. And that gave him. him this ability to accept himself. Exactly. Hey guys, do you know that you have a G-spot? That's right. Guys have a G-spot, too. And you know where it is, it is hidden right underneath your taint. Now, if you don't know where your taint is, it is that little landing strip right in between your balls and your asshole. Now, listen, if you stimulate your male G-spot, you're going to have what's called a prostate orgasm. Now, I've never had a prostate orgasm because I'm a chick, but the guys who have called into my show

who have had them talk about them being the best effing orgasm ever. And that's why I'm excited to tell you about the butter wellness perineum massager. The reason why I love this massager for male prostate orgasms is because you don't have to put this inside to have one. Okay. Their massager is designed to only be used externally. Okay. I know, Now listen, I'm a chick so I've never used it to have a prostate orgasm, but you can use it on your partner. I have one and I use it as a little clit massager. It's a little vibrator.

You can share it with your girl, but if you take it and you push down on your G spot, you could have a prostate orgasm. I had a listener email me recently, and he said, I not only bought your buck, but I also bought the butter massager. And I was like, oh my God, can you tell me how it works for you? Because I like to give other people, like specific information for people who actually use the product. And he said, not only did it give him prostate orgasm, sometimes when he used it, it also gave him stronger erection so much so that his wife noticed the difference. And he felt like

he was actually also ejaculating further when he was using it during orgasm. And he also raved about their water-based lube that you get with it. He calls it the best. He said it warms up to your body's temperature and a little amount goes a long way. So listen, after hearing that great review, why not go check out the butter perineum massager yourself? And you could get the butter starter kit, which does come with the water-based loop. All you got to do is go to butter wellness.com and use my code strictly for 20% off your whole order. That's butter wellness, B-U-T-T-E-R-W-E-L-N-E-S-S dot com. Use my code strictly at check.

out for 20% off your whole order. So make sure to order up. Would engage in, you know, occasional bisexual behavior going to glory holes and bathhouses and having sex with men. And as I worked with him, we explored, you know, what are you looking for? Well, you know, and ultimately, he said, I, you know, I, I enjoy sex with men because I can feel like I'm not in charge. I can feel overpowered when I'm sex with women. And my wife in particular, he has to be in charge. But he said, I'm not interested in a relationship or love with other men.

I'm just interested in sex. But I'm only interested in love with women. And I said, oh, you're a heteronomatic bisexual, which is a term that describes that pattern. Perfectly, specifically. Exactly. Which is needed. Yes. He was, no, he was blown away.

Yeah. That there was a term that could describe him and that gave him this ability to accept himself. Exactly. And then, and then I think like it's all about accepting it first with yourself and then you're more likely to be able to be honest about who you are to somebody else. You know, like I said, I don't think I'll have a show 30 years from now because the younger generation is way more open. Can I just ask you a quick question? And like, I mean, did you just start out as a regular therapist and then honed in when you went for your PhD, like on sex? Like, and why did you decide to take that route?

Were you just like a curious person, you know, about sexuality? Oh, come on, Kathy. The last name, Lay, how many options did I have? When you put there, like, I don't know, when you email me, you're like, my name is David Lay spelled like pronounced L-A-Y. It's like, yeah, duh. Uh-huh. Yeah, exactly. You know, honestly, I started working with sex offenders, in fact.

interesting. Because there's not a lot of people out there that will work with them. And I've got a good poker face and I was able to listen to these issues and still support these folks with compassion. And then over time, I started getting more and more referrals of sexual behaviors that were not criminal, that were not offending. But other therapists didn't know how to deal with them. Issues of porn, BDSM, nomognous,

relationships, et cetera. And they'd send them to me because while he works with sex, so he can deal with these issues too. Yeah. And then I, then I, I, I, I mostly stopped working with offenders. I still, I still supervised folks that do that, but sort of working more with, you know, aspects of positive sexuality, et cetera, and helping people to pursue fulfillment and self-acceptance and sexuality. It's been, it's been an interesting ride, I've got to tell you. Well, I'm assuming then you just had to, How did you get educated on all that stuff once you started to get it? Like, you know what I mean? Like kinks and PDSM and I'm assuming fetishes and all that kind of stuff.

And then I was even wondering, like, how did you do your research on hotwifing when you decided, when you started to realize like this was a thing? So there are programs now to offer people the education and training on this. I'm on the board of the Sexual Health Alliance. It is an international organization that provides training. the people that want to be sex educators, counselors, therapists, or coaches. And we train on all these issues. And that wasn't around, though, when I was developing this.

Yeah. When I started pursuing this, I had to fill my cup with reading all the research, with interviewing people with, you know, ASEC is an organization that certifies counselors, sex therapists and such. they've been around since the 70s. And I worked with them and I'm certified by them now as a supervisor of sex therapy, et cetera. But I had to do most of this all on my own. And, you know, it's funny how topical, you know, so much of my kind of career has been that when I started researching and interviewing folks, that was when Craigslist still had personal ads.

That's where my show started, by the way. That's where I got every one of my callers. That's and that's where a lot of the hot wives and cuckolds were finding other men. Yeah. And so when I would travel for work, I would post ads on Craigslist and say, hey, are you living this lifestyle? And if so, I'm interested in interviewing you. And then the couples would send me naked pictures of the wife.

And I would say, thank you very much. But I'm really actually swear to God, just interested in interviewing you. Wow, that's what you did. That's so interesting. Yeah, and, you know, and it was remarkable. I mean, it was really extraordinary that people were willing to trust me and willing to talk about these issues. Because, again, they couldn't talk about it to anybody else. I mean, it's funny, again, how things change because at the time, cuckold couples were really stigmatized by the swinging community.

The swinging community didn't want cuckolds around. They thought it was, they thought it was stupid. They thought it was, you know, it was not manly enough that the husband wasn't, wasn't, you know, having sex as well with other women. But now it has become so popular that a lot of swing clubs have gangbang nights where they let single men in for the wife while the husbands watch. Yeah, they have had my big nights, themes. That's right. That's new. And again, it just shows these remarkable social shifts in a pretty small amount of time, honestly.

Well, I love that you actually did the research and talk to people because, you know, I listen to a lot of mainstream podcasts, you know, just about like Bravo shows and shit that I watch. Like, Dr. That fucking Dr. Drew. I used to love him. He was on a show once and he was like just, you know, they were talking about someone on the news that was having, you know, swingers or open marriage, you know. And he was like, oh, that never works. You know, studies have shown. It's like you don't fucking know anything, Dr. Drew.

Like I've been talking over 1100 people. I can't sit here and say anything because I'm not a real professional. but I've talked to enough people to know that not only can it work, when it does work, it can actually make you closer. You know, sorry, like that's what my show is here to say. Not that it's for everybody, not that this should be the norm, but that most people think this could never work. I'm here to say that it can. Sorry, it can. Sorry, Dr. Drew.

Like, you need to go on his show because you're a person that really studied it. You know what I mean? I'm just like talking to people. Like you could say you did the research. Yeah. So, like you, I used to listen to love. lines and where they were doing that. And looking back, you're right, I see so much moral judgment and what Drew was saying. It's funny. It's funny you say, I should go on his show. Drew and I have

talked about me being on his show multiple times to discuss his views of sex addiction. And we always get a little bit down the road and then he goes silent and goes smear. Yeah, you want to know why? This is what I think. He's just coutowing. Is that the right word? To the fucking. mainstream audience. He can, you know what I'm saying? He cannot open his mind to what you or me believe in because he would lose his fucking, I just think he's being main, it's mainstream bullshit. Like, seriously. Because I'm just like, who knows what he's fucking doing? I think he's just like saying it for the audience that's listening. So out. It, it's pretty easy to manipulate people by telling them to be afraid of sex. Yeah. To, to the, that kinky, sex is bad for you, that wanting sex too much will turn you into a bad person. Yeah. And there's a lot of people out there that, that use that, that use that strategy to manipulate people with sexual anxiety, sexual insecurity.

I mean, right? The Rolling Stones, you know, said, you know, is your shirt whiten off, right? Yeah. And the same, it is so easy to trigger insecurity and anxiety and people by, you know, is your dick hard enough? Do you come too quick? Do you not come at all? Are you good at sex? Are you good enough at sex? And people are just deeply uncertain and insecure. And then it's a very easy way to manipulate them. Yeah. Unfortunately. And lots of people are doing that. You know, is your wife cheating on you? You know, how do you know? There's this whole infidelity, anxiety industry out there. that exploits people and makes a lot of money out of them and ultimately makes people unhappier right i think the more we again you know so much of my work is is about increasing

people's sexual self-awareness and self-acceptance you know we we don't know why or how anybody ends up with the sexual attractions that they have i see lots of people that you know they have this shame around this is the thing that I find sexually arousing. I saw this one kid, I want to say 18, 19 years old. And he'd been raised by, you know, lesbian parents, and he was a deeply feminist guy. But the thing that turned him on the most was watching porn with face fucking, where rough oral sex and where, you know, the girls have tears kind of running down their face. And he was so shame to that. He was worried that that desire made him a rapist. Now, he had never engaged in sexual assault. Of course. Yeah, I got it. But he was afraid that that desire made him a bad person. And so,

you know, the work that I did with me, very short work, honestly, was, hey, guess what? There's lots of women out there who also find that sexually arousing or who find it something that that they'd be willing to do if you're interested in doing something that they're willing, that they're interested in. Right. And I said, again, we don't know why that is something that turns you on. We have this mix of biology, biological predispositions in our brain and things we encounter in our environment as we're developing our sexuality.

And it's a role of the dice, the thing that turns you on. your job is just to pursue what we talk about in sexual health, the principles of sexual health, consent, honesty, safety, mutual pleasure, shared values, and no exploitation. If you can pursue that fantasy and not take advantage of people, then it's healthy, even if it's something that I or other people might not do. Yeah, and like there really is something to that whole thing like what you resist persists. And like just keeping all these things is so shameful and hidden and and, you know, people not being able to talk about it and resisting it within themselves. It only makes that stuff come out, I think, in like the wrong way, right? Or it just gets to be like more something that is like more dark because of your association to it. You know, so I just feel like there needs more education. You need to get on fucking Dr. Drew's podcast. Okay. And you need to have a whole conversation with. him about all the people you've talked to, how non-monogamy can work. Okay, like, it's so ridiculous. That he is he, he's, so he's the one that like stops it. I mean, I could edit this out if you

don't want to give personal information, but like he's the one that never like allows it to, for you to actually get on. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, he's waiting for it to be more accepted. He can't lose his big, fat, mainstream audience. You know what I mean? Now, in, in contrast, I would say, you know, I've, uh, before Dr. Phil stopped doing his show, I was on Dr. Phil show, I want to say seven or eight times. You're kidding. That's interesting. And Dr. Phil actually was really willing to engage in some critical thinking about these

issues, which I found refreshing. Yeah. I think he was like, listen, I was obsessed with talk shows when I was little, so I watched them all. And I think he was more open to like, you know, things out of the box, right? He was a little bit more salacious. I think Dr. Drew, like I said, he just got boxed into this place and he's too mainstream, I think, to go off the edge.

But I love that he did. And I mean, it's still, like, I think we're in a very different time. So that's pretty major for him to have had you on talking about the stuff all the way back then when his show was big. Because that was a long time ago. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And he was back by Oprah. Yeah. You know, who's the main person. So what do you think about, like, nomini? Because I always say, because sometimes I'll get like weird comments like, oh, you're pitching this.

You think people do this or this is normalized. I'm like, I'm not trying to normalize. anything here. I'm just trying to show, like I said before that, like most people would think that the minute you open up your relationship, it's doom for failure. And all I'm here to say is like, actually not. Like, plenty of couples live very happy non-monogamous lives. And they're like closer because of it, you know? And what have you found in like your real research? So once non-monogamous couples get past the first year of being non-monogamous, their marriages, or their relationships are as stable as monogamous relationships.

Right. There's no research that says after that first year being non-monogamous is going to doom a relationship. Now, the first year is tough because they're making it up as they go. They don't have patterns of how to make non-monogamy work. Every non-monogous relationship looks different than every other non-monogous relationship. because, you know, some folks are into swinging, some folks are into polyamory, some folks, you know, are into hotwifing, some folks are into don't ask, don't tell relationships. What the research says right now is that in the United States, about 20% of people will be in a consensually non-monogous relationship at some point in their lives. Right.

One in five, but we're not talking about it. And we're not talking about it because of the stigma and the shame. And unfortunately, there's lots of therapists that will say, just like Drew, oh, this doesn't work. Yeah. And patients will test the therapist and see what their judgment or reactions are and then we'll tell the therapist about nonmonogamy if they know they're not going to get judged. If they're going to get judged, they keep the mouth shut. So that's why therapists think it doesn't work because they're hearing from the people that, you know, their relationship is falling. apart. They're not hearing from the relationship where it's working. I have a presentation I do

called 31 flavors of non-monogamy where I talk about all the different flavors, all the different styles of non-monogamy, and what draws people to one style or the other. Most swingers are actually conservative and tend to be more Republican. Oh, I like this kind of data. It's interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Polyamorous folk tend to be more. progressive and democratic. Why? Because because they're more interested in relationship and whereas Republicans or conservatives are a little more interested in just keeping the boundaries on recreational sex but not not not changing the boundaries of traditional marriage. Just opening up for the sex. The folks that are one of my fun conversations,

that I have with couples as they are, you know, exploring wanting to open up, I'll ask them, you know, how are you at talking about relationship? And, you know, they'll say, oh, yeah, I love to do that. Okay, Polly Emery's going to work for you because these people talk about their relationships all the damn time. But somebody says, oh, no, you know, fuck, I hate that stuff. It's so boring. You shoot me in the head talking about the relationship. Okay. Then swinging. kind of is going to work for you because these people actually don't talk about their relationships a whole lot. They just have, they just exploit the recreational sacks. These are the things that, that I think, you know, people, people do this unconsciously as they try to, as they start opening up a relationship, they respond to what works. And they start consciously and unconsciously negotiating the boundaries of their relationship. A lot of couples, when they first open up, they have lots of rules. You know, no kissing. Oh my God. First one to go out the window, by the way, too. Exactly. And then I call these anxiety management strategies because what they're really doing

is saying that would make me uncomfortable. That would make me nervous. That would make me afraid to lose you. And so don't do that. And then as they start to explore this, they find out, oh, these things aren't that bad. And I'm not that worried. I think we can do that. And like you said, these rules go out the window. But ultimately what I encourage couples to do is first, yeah, let's talk about these rules, but then let's talk about how this stuff feels. I encourage couples to try these things out before jumping in the deep end. So wait in the shallow end of the pool. So before going out and picking somebody up and having sex, first, let's fantasize about it.

Let's listen to erotic stories. Let's listen to your podcast and talk about how we feel about what we just heard. Because that helps us prepare and desensitize a bit to some of these situations. that are going to be tough. Now, let's finally talk about how we're going to get through it when bad feelings come up. Right, because I don't care who you are. And I have some friends here in New York City that are like professional swingers. And even they can get jealous at times, you know, just because like I'm saying, like,

it just be the way the wind blows or, you know, where a girl is in her period cycle. You know what I mean? She might get pissed off at something she was never pissed off at before. And you can't tell that person they're wrong for that. Right? It's about the point is like how you deal with those and you should be able to bring them to your partner, how they come. I love long game couples when they play the long game like you're talking about. The ones who come on my show and they're total newbies and maybe they've just, you know, had a couple experiences. But what I love about those episodes is their long game, how they really took their time. Because I feel like that's a very realistic thing that other, a lot of people can sort of do. I have plenty of couples that come on. It's third marriage. They meet someone. They're right up front and they jump right into it. You know, I have those two, which are great, but I love the long game ones because I think those are very, you know, they're like very safe way to really get into opening up your relationship if you never did. One of my favorites is couples that, you know, got married when they were 18. Oh, I know those couple.

Deeply religious communities and backgrounds. And they are married and in love. And 10 or 15 years later, they're like, hey, sex with you is a lot of fun. But what if we tried it with other people? And then they start exploring and seeing those couples just blossom. Yeah. It is really beautiful and fun. Yeah.

And they have the foundation. I have a lot of those couples. The ones have who have been together for the dawn of time, you know, and then eventually do this. And I always feel like that's a great foundation to start from. I always like, when I was younger, there was a documentary on HBO about Swingers. You know, and I remember watching it and being like, oh, my God, I'm going to be a swinger one day when I'm like 60. You know what I mean? Like, that's like goals for me.

Because I always felt like, oh, to get to that place where you don't own someone sexually is like very evolved. You know, that's how I looked at it. You know, if I could get there one day. But they fought with the whole documentary, what they did was they followed like a bunch of couples who were at different parts, you know, different stages of the relationships who all started swinging. And they did. And they did, you know, it seemed that the couples that had double digit years with each other, you know, fared better at the end of the year when they followed them than the couple that just started right away. But I've heard from the couple that just started right away and they're fine.

You know, I mean, but I just think that those couples that have been since the dawn and time, they have that really strong foundation of just liking each other as friends. You know what I mean? As people and then everything else is like icing on the cake and they know they're, you know, with each other to the end. So, and I always feel like if you know that you have that, right, I always feel like the fear, it's like a big fear of abandonment because like really if you knew for sure that this person was never going to leave you. Like, what does it matter if you all go out and fuck other people? You know what I mean?

I think it's more the fear that they would like them, fall for them, leave you for them, you know, whatever. Yeah, again, you know, the things that I'm just fascinated by is how people's self-awareness evolves through these relationships. You know, one of the challenging things is that historically men's fear that their wife or a female partner may have been unfaithful. Oftentimes is a major trigger for domestic violence or even homicide. But there are some men where if they think their wife has been with another man, they get turned on.

What's the difference between these men? That's one of the things that I just really find interesting. And I think a lot of it is not viewing their wife as property. but instead viewing her as this person that they're just intrigued by. Interesting. I was going to ask this before. You just reminded me because you talked about the infidelity. Like I have talked to the cuck and I sometimes think for me as the cuck queen.

Like some people that have that kink, it definitely is related to like them being cheated on at some point. And I remember when I first heard one woman on my show who talked about she was like, you know, cheated on. She had major trust issues. And then she like sort of turned that energy from like being like just crazy, you know, that crazy feeling of not trusting someone and being jealous into like a turn on it. And I was like, oh, what a fucking brilliant thing. Right. It's like that's a feeling, right? So it's an energy.

And if you could take it from the feeling of making you insane to just making you fucking turned on, isn't that way better? I was like, I'm never going to be fucking jealous again in my life. I'm just going to be turned on. Because it's annoying. Like I don't know that I could ever change that part of myself. you know what I mean, but maybe I could direct it in a different way. That's one of the things I argue in insatiable lives is that cuckled couples take jealousy and turn it into turbocharged libido. Yeah, that's real, right?

How brilliant. Yeah. For the person especially that has been cheated on, that has trust issues. Like I said, when I first started hearing that, I'm like, I'm never going to be like a psychopath. Because I had a lot of cheating in the beginning of my life, you know, and like I would be very distrustful. And then, of course, if you're distrustful, you only get distrustful partners, right? You know what he's like, whatever. But I'm like, yeah, I'll never.

You get what you put out in the world. Yeah, totally, until you figure it out. And I actually think now that I'm so normal, like, I find the guy that doesn't want to go fuck people for me. You know what I mean? I'm like, you know, I'm never going to live in that crazy headspace anymore. I could just turn it into this. It's just so smart to change it because it is just an energy, right? And you talked about that.

I love that. Like I said, I mean, I could sit here and make all these assumptions just from people that I talk about, but I'm just like a regular person talking to people. Like, you did the real research. You have the PhD. You could go out there as an expert and really talk about it and people will listen to you, which I love, you know? Yeah, one cool thing I'm doing now is I'm testifying in court as an expert witness on sexuality and psychology issues, including BDSM and consensual nonmonogamy. because it's an opportunity to educate judges and juries around these issues because unfortunately these issues do end up in court and if people are making decisions again based on ignorance

and bias then you know problems happen and unfortunately kinky people end up getting persecuted as perverts. Totally. Yeah and I mean how many people on your jury do you think are going to be like unbiased zero? I mean, What are the odds that, you know, out of those 12 people? Even one of them is as open-minded as me or you. Probably not high. There are a chance. So you're fucked, kind of because people don't have any clue about it, you know?

And I always, I was going to do a whole thing of like sex in the news as like an extra episode, you know, and I'm like, I was trying to find a podcast. Because there's so many stories that I hear out there. And people just have like such a way of looking at them. And I'm like, oh, they're so fucking wrong, you know. And because the media rules how things get spun out, right? And then the majority of people chime in, everyone just sees it this one way. And I typically a lot of times I'm seeing it very different because I have more of an inner

knowledge of what like really goes down, you know? Yeah. Again, it's media exploiting that sexual anxiety. And, you know, and like Dr. Drew, you know, getting the salacious thrill by presenting this is bad. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much of that in the media.

And unfortunately, that stuff, you know, comes out in court. It comes out in marriages. It comes out in school. It comes out in therapy. And most of my career at this point is really about challenging that and helping people to realize, look, this is morality. This is you judging people. It's not based on facts.

It's not based on science. And it's based on a limited understanding of what people are actually doing. Let's talk about what people are actually doing. And now do you still feel the same way about? this shame and morality. Yeah, no, a lot of times I would get, when I first started my show in the beginning, and even to this day, I'll still get an email every now and then like, oh, I love listening to your show. Like, it makes me feel like it's so great. Like your interviews, it makes me feel so normal. Like, you know, all the freaks that you talk to. I'm like, no, you don't understand.

Like, I don't think these people are freaks. Like, that's not what I'm saying. And I always make a joke. I'm like, there's no pervert island. I think like people sort of think that all the people that do these kinds of things like look a certain way or you'd know them when they walk by you and they're like sleazy. I'm like, these are like the people. Do you pass them every day? These are regular people.

This is what regular people are doing. I have a book coming out October 18th. And it was kind of hard when I started writing it because I'm like, these stories are a bunch of short stories from my show told in the third person, right? And they're basically, it was just like facts of these people sex lives, right? It's just like telling people what they do. And it was like I said,

it was harder to write than I thought because there's no arc to these stories, right? but I think what could be interesting to people out there, not the people that listen to my show because they already know that the regular people, like these are real people, these are real stories, these are what real people are doing. And a lot of these people, I know who they are on the DL behind the scenes, and they're CEOs,

and they're like very successful people. They're not, like I said, these people that you think live on this weird island and they look like someone that should be in jail. You know, these are regular people. Sorry, it's the truth. Yeah, it's so important what you're doing. I mean, documenting and putting those stories out there so that people know, oh, I'm not the only one.

Yeah, that's what it's all about. Yeah, a researcher in Canada, Christian Jol, did this research and found, did this random sample of, you know, calling up people in Quebec. Just random people, not in therapy, anything, calling them up and talking to them about their sexual fantasies. Yeah. And found that 50% of people have sexual fantasies or interests that would be considered deviant. Wow. 50%. That's major.

50% one out of every two. But they don't talk about it because they're going to get judged. And so it raises the question. I mean, we're all freaks. Yeah. We're all sexually deviant because really at the end of the day, all sexuality is deviant. Oh, I love that.

That's like mic drop right there. I think we got to end with that. But I'm obsessed with you. I'm like, I don't know if I want to make you my best friend or my therapist or like, but what I really want to make you is like someone that comes on my show like a million times because, you know,

I love that you talk about the whole myth of sex addiction and porn. I feel like there's just so many other topics that come up on my show that we could talk about. So I'd love to have you back on. I've also loved to like get you be someone that like makes a comment about my book. You know, I'm going out to experts. Oh, I'd love to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be great. But like I said, I'm obsessed with you. I love what you've been doing. I'm going to put the link to your book in the description. I'd love to have you back on to talk about all the other things that you talk about. Yeah, I love your brain. I'm actually, yeah, I'm actually in the city this weekend.

I don't know if you had time for coffee or drink on Sunday. Yeah, maybe. Why don't you do? You know what? When we get off, I'll text you, my real number. Okay. Let's figure it out maybe. Okay.

Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on. This was like so interesting. Great talking to you, Kathy. I loved it. Awesome. Bye, Dr. David. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. You're funny. Bye. Okay. I just want to tell you before you go that my book, it's called Strictly anonymous confession, secret sex lives of total strangers, is now available not only in

paperback and ebook, but you can pre-order the audio book. It's still not going to be out until August 25th, but you can. pre-order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story. There's a cuck queen story. There's a cuck story. There's a gang being girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person. And they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person. And I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book. Think like penthouse letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that

kind of vibe, right? But these are true stories. 17 of them. They're really short chapters, easy read. You could read, you know, one or two and then skip around. You could read the whole book. It's available in eback format, paperback format, and finally, the audiobook is available coming out August 25th. But you could pre-order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or pre-order it, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint, okay? There's no way you get into my Discord any other way than getting the link from me. Okay, I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. Everybody shares content with each other, and that's what you get to do there. You can post your own pictures and

videos. There's tons of channels. We have lots of contests where you can win a lot of money. It's a super fun place to be. It's a total, strictly anonymous. community and you will love it. I will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my Discord. It's private, like I said. All you got to do is email me a screenshot of your purchase, whether you did the audiobook, the ebook, or the paperback. Send it to me at Strictly Anonymous Podcast at gmail.com. That's strictly anonymous podcast at gmail.com. And I will send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the strictly anonymous podcast.