Strictly Anonymous Confessions - 1280 - Are People Hard Wired for Kinky Sex & Non-Monogamy? w/ Dr. Zhana

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Dr. Zhana, PhD, NYU professor of Sexuality, called in to talk all about sex and science and how and why some people are actually wired for non-monogamy and kinky sex. Tune in to hear all the details including the fair amount of evidence out there that shows there’s a strong genetic component to some people being way more open sexually than others, how and why non-monogamy should be an option for certain people, her early curiosity toward sex and sexual exploration and how that led her to study sexuality in college, the stigma she faced and how and why she decided not to let it stop her from being adventurous as well as not let it stop her from seeking a committed, romantic, and open relationship, her current open relationship and how it’s set up, how and why they were monogamous the first year before opening up and why she recommends that for other couples, the initial stage of infatuation and chemistry in a new relationship and how long that lasts as well as how to prolong it, the book she’s writing on sex and relationships and the five relationship structures that exist and what they are, plus info about the research study she’s conducting for the book and how you can be part of it, and a whole lot more. You can find her on instagram @drzhana To take part in the survey, click herehttps://nyu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_7OphTMSQeQVjjWS To see HOT pics of my female guests + hear anonymous confessions + get all the episodes early and AD FREE, join my Patreon! It's only $7 a month and you can cancel at any time. You can sign up here: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/StrictlyAnonymousPodcast⁠⁠⁠ and when you join, I'll throw in a complimentary link to my private Discord!  MY BOOK IS NOW OUT FOR PRE-ORDER!!!! Strictly Anonymous Confessions: Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. A bunch of short, super sexy, TRUE stories. GET YOUR COPY NOW: ⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/4i7hBCd⁠⁠⁠  To join SDC and get a FREE Trial! click here: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.sdc.com/?ref=37712⁠⁠⁠ or go to SDC.com and use my code 37712  Want to be on the show? Email me at ⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠ or go to ⁠⁠⁠http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com⁠⁠⁠ and click on "Be on the Show." Want to confess while remaining anonymous? Call the CONFESSIONS hotline at 347-420-3579. All voices are changed.  Sponsors:⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://butterwellness.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠ — Use the code STRICTLY at checkout for 30% OFF your entire order⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://bluechew.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ — Get your first month of the new Bluechew Max FREE! Use code: STRICTLYANON⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://brooklynbedding.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ — Use my promo code STRICTLY at checkout to get 30% off sitewide⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠https://www.quince.com/strictlyanon⁠⁠⁠ — For premium quality Quince clothing plus FREE shipping and 365 day returns! ⁠⁠⁠https://beducate.me/pd2536-anonymous⁠⁠⁠ — Use code ANONYMOUS69 to get 50% off your yearly pass plus a 14-day money-back guarantee⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠http://loadboost.com⁠⁠⁠ — To get 10% off LOAD Boost by VB Health use code: STRICTLY ⁠https://uberlube.com/discount/Strictly⁠⁠⁠ — Use code STRICTLY for 10% off Uberlube aka the BEST Lube EVER⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠https://shamelesscare.sjv.io/xLQ3Jv⁠⁠⁠ — To get $15 OFF your oxytocin products, STI panels and more, use code STRICTLY  Follow me! Instagram  ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/strictanonymous/⁠⁠⁠ X ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/strictanonymous?lang=en⁠⁠⁠ Website  ⁠⁠⁠http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com/⁠⁠ Everything else: ⁠https://linktr.ee/Strictlyanonymouspodcast⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So if you want to get access to my Discord, do any of the things I just said. All the links are in the description. If you want to sign up for the best adult website, it is SDC. I love SDC. I'm not on there, but like everyone of my guests who talk about meeting people and hooking up and learning about the lifestyle, they started at SDC. It is the world's largest adult website. What's great about SDC, it's just a place where you can meet people. It's a place where you could also learn about all the shit in your area.

Or if you want to play on vacation, you can learn about what's going on over there. I have a free trial that I could offer my listeners. All you got to do is use code 37712 on SDC.com or just go to the description and click on the link. Okay, today I have such a super interesting conversation with Dr. Jana. I have wanted Dr. Jana on my show. She's like a NYU, Ph.D. Professor of sexuality. She is in the process of writing a book and she's doing this really interesting study for the book. And when I saw that she was running it and posting it on her Instagram, I'm like, oh, why don't you come on my show? Like it's something that would be perfect for my audience.

to take and then I could also, you know, get her on my show and talk about the things that I've always wanted to talk to her about because I've been following her on Instagram. It's Dr. Jana Z-H-A-N-A. I'll put her Instagram link in the description because she's always got something so smart to say. She really like talks about non-monogamy and sex and sexuality and she's super open and she, you know, has like the science and the data to back up all the stuff that she talks about. She's doing like I said this study and she explains it all. It's perfect for my audience at take, but we talk so much more on this episode. You're going to be obsessed with this conversation. You're going to learn a lot. She knows what she's talking about. She's been studying this.

She also lives it. She's very open-minded, like I say, and she talks about her own life and her own journey and how and why she became a sex professor as well as a, you know, a consultant because she does see people. She also teaches students. And then she talks all about her book, which is super interesting and why she's writing it and you get a lot of information about what it's all about and why it's super important. But like I said, you're definitely going to learn a lot. You're going to want to take her quiz. I'm going to take it. You'll be a part of the bigger study of that book that's coming out that is very needed and it's going to be, I think, revolutionary when it comes out. So anyway, I'm going to get right to it and be right back on with Dr. Janna. Hi, Dr. Janna. Welcome to the

Strictly Anonymous podcast. How are you today? Hi, Kathy. So good to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm doing great. No, thanks for coming on. I've wanted you on my show ever since you popped up on my YouTube, my Instagram feed. Somehow you popped up and, you know, because you have, you talk about sexuality. You literally are a PhD professor at NYU on sexuality, right? You're a sex and relationship consultant. This is what you talk about.

I mean, nobody with a PhD at the end of their name isn't a smart bitch, right? And I love that you have the data to back. up like what I do on my show and like whenever I would see your stuff on Instagram I'm like oh my God she's so effing smart but what I and like I said what I love about you is I could say everything I want on my show but I'm like not a professional so you know it's my opinion but you have like facts you know and I saw recently you had posted on your Instagram that you were doing a whole study through NYU right on like love and sacks and I was like oh my God we should like you could come on my show and then you could pitch it and like my audience could get involved

because that's what we talk about here. So I do want to get your whole backstory and everything and talk about non-monogamy and all the stuff that you discuss. But why don't we do talk about your study real quick and then we'll talk about it more at the end? Like just tell people what the study's about. Sure. I'm so glad that you want to share it with your people. I think your people are absolutely perfect for the study. The study is called the Love Smarter Study and it's going to be a multi-year project that is going to test a set of hypotheses that I'll tell you more.

about and this is the first in the series the first survey in the series where we are developing new measures of people's sexual and romantic needs so whatever you know in a very broad kind of comprehensive way what are the sexual needs that humans have and what are the romantic needs that humans have and to what extent people have them right some of us have very strong needs for various kinds of sexual adventure and and also security and some of us have of less so and with romantic needs. And we are trying to capture these needs. And then we have a whole set of hypotheses that we can test based on those needs.

The survey just opened recently and we are going for about 5 to 7,000 participants in one month until December 15th. So that we have time to crunch the data and incorporated in the book that I'm writing, I know we'll also talk about, but it directly tests some of the hypotheses that are going into the book. And I need a very both large and diverse sample of people. Everybody qualifies as long as people are 18 or over and are based in the U.S. we have that U.S. restriction because of data privacy issues and the NYU ethics board, the Arabi only approved it for the U.S. right now. So if you're in the U.S. and 18 plus and fluent in English, please take it.

It takes about 35, 40 minutes for the main section. There's a 15-minute optional section at the end if you're really into it. Highly encourage you take it. That's actually even more fun version or part of it. But, yeah, there's a $20 Amazon gift card raffle that we can enter people in if they want to, if they give us their email and info. And they don't have to. it can be completely anonymous, so it's up to them to choose how they want to take it.

And yeah. And I'm going to give the link to the study, right? Like, I'm going to give the actual information in the description so anyone driving that's like wants to do it. What I love about this, because you're saying it's like very diverse. So I'm assuming that like all the kind of kinks and things that people are into that I found out through doing my show or going to be included, right? Like this isn't just like general stuff.

This is like anything that someone could be into, correct? This is, it's covering, yeah, kind of the whole range of desires and needs that people have. This is not specifically a kink survey, so we don't go into details on all of the different kinds of kinks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's more sort of a general interest in king that we are capturing because this is really trying to get everybody from people who are asexual and aromantic, right? You don't really have any sexual and romantic needs all the way to the super sluts and the poly people and the non-monogamous and kinky and all of that. People who don't want relationships at all to people who really strongly want relationships. Right.

So from that perspective, single and partnered, happily single, unhappily single. I love all this kind of data. Unhappily partnered. Literally the entire sexual and relational spectrum and map is what we're trying to capture and really map out. and understand how do these needs really are distributed in the population? You know, how strong are they? How many people we have on this end and that end? And what does that mean for the kind of relationship structures that are the best for us

and how do we best thrive in them? Yeah, I love that because I feel like most of the time we can't help but project how we are onto everybody else, right? So a lot of people who are, most people love being in a relationship and they can't understand people who are single and loving it. You know, they just feel like I must be lonely. Like, I was always that person, single and loving it. And I felt like people would always be like, oh, why are you single?

You never were picked? I'm like, could it possibly be that I'm single because I never wanted to fucking live with a man? Like, could that be possible? But people can't believe it. And I don't think they're being rude. I just think that they're just projecting because they can't imagine being that way. But I think everyone's kind of different as well as like when it comes to sex, right? Like I just feel, and I remember Dr. David Lay, I know that.

you know him and follow him. I'm sure you love him too. He's so fucking smart. And we didn't do an episode yet on sex addiction. I want him to come back on and talk about that because he wrote a whole book in it. But what he did talk about, you know, he talked and you mentioned something on this, he talked about how like with sex addiction or just like the stuff that people are into, it's kind of like, you know, how some people are like they're born being into roller coasters

and some people are not. Like some people get, like I could watch a roller coaster and hear it and I could get off on it. Like I feel an adrenaline rush. My son, my son, by the way, gets on one and he doesn't fucking like it. Like I thought, oh, if I push him on, he'll go on, he'll love it. No, he does not like it. And I can't understand that brain. I was actually very mean to him the first time we make jokes about it because I was like,

what's the fuck's your problem? But I realize, like, well, just why you're differently. And it's the same thing when it comes to sex. Some people just need more. It's not about, like, I heard somebody recently in the regular media talking about people with open relationships. and they're like, oh yeah, don't you think it has to do with past trauma? It's like, no, I don't think it necessarily has to do with past trauma.

I think, like, what Dr. Lay was saying and you're saying, like, everyone has different needs and maybe we're just wired in a certain way that some people need to go out of the box more than others, right? You really hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what I've been advocating for and teaching about, and that's what this study is going to hopefully, you know, show everyone to prove that that's the case, that there is a very wide range of what people, even biologically, genetically, were kind of predetermined almost to want. And then, of course, it's not all genetic. Everything is in interaction with the environment. So there is a constant kind of interplay dance between our genes and our environments. But there is no doubt at this point, we have a fair amount of evidence that

there is a strong genetic component to some people wanting a lot more sexual, like novelty and excitement and adventure and other people wanting a lot less. For example, there's a few studies that have looked at just this one gene. And by the way, when it comes to these complex psychological traits like how much sexual exploration and adventure you want, that's not one-to-one genetically determined. It's not like one gene determines exactly where you're going to land on the spectrum of sexual exploration. There are many, many, many genes.

There's like hundred, maybe thousands even of genes that contribute a little bit. to your level, right, of say, sexual adventure seeking. Well, they've looked at just one gene that's called the DRD4 gene, and that's a dopamine receptor gene in the brain. So a receptor for dopamine, and we all know the dopamine is this reward chemical or really anticipation chemical. It's the chemical that makes you very excited when you're about to, when you know that you're about to get some reward.

And sex obviously is a very powerful, potent reward. So the people who have, and all of these genes come in a few different versions in the human race, some of these versions seem to code for higher general novelty seeking and exploration and adventure seeking, including sexual. So they have found that people who have this one version of that DRD4 gene are twice as likely, double, twice as likely to have cheated on a partner. twice as likely to have had a one-night stand more likely, significantly more likely to be interested in all sorts of kinky things. Interesting. Why isn't this included in 23 and me?

I feel like when you have the genetics to back it up, it makes it so. I have something called misophonia. It is like I want to fucking punch someone in the face if they chew with their mouth open. I can't stand. Are you the same way? I cannot effing. stand it. I buy, I literally, if I go to the movies by myself, I buy the

seat next to myself so no one fucking sits there. Wow. And I have my Bose noise canceling $350 air plugs, right? That's how much I hate it, but you want to know something? It is in my DNA, okay? And I love that I could prove that because I think people think I'm being a bitch

and I'm like, I can't help it. And when I show them, it's in my DNA on 23 and me, they shut the fuck up, you know? Yeah, genetics are really powerful. And this is actually one of those, one of the biggest pieces of information that I have given people that have been able to change how they think about themselves or how to think about others, because you're so right when you say people project whatever they feel, whatever they experience onto everybody

else, and then it's so difficult to understand how someone could be different. And that goes in all directions. You know, the non-slutty people see someone slutty and like, what's wrong with you? And then the slutty people look at the non-slotty people and it's like, well, what's wrong with you? Exactly, yeah. Why are you so repressed? You know, you must be repressed because of, I don't know, religion or culture or family. And sure, that can happen.

That has happened to many people. In fact, culture and religion and all of those things have a very powerful impact. But that's not the case with everybody. You have people who live in some of the most open countries in the world and still don't want to sluddy it up. And, you know, nothing can make them sluddy it up because you just don't have it in them. Yeah. Just like some of us really have it in us. And we are most like to thrive in these lifestyles and relational structures that allow for that need to be met at the level that we have.

And this, the understanding of the genetic differences that exist between us, I think really helps people understand that. Yeah, because people look down on other people. I mean, it's, I think this get a lot, the reason why a lot of people don't cop to the things that they're into is because, God forbid, the person sitting across them is like, ew, like you're a fucking perver. You know how people react to sex stuff? Like they're fucking 12, you know? Like, they're like, oh my God, it's so grass. Like, I can't, you know, I hear it all the time when I'm listening to mainstream media, right? When they're talking about all the stuff that I'm talking to people on my show.

And like, I've talked to 1,276 people at this point, okay? Now, I don't have any study done, but I know for sure I can tell you that open relationships do work. Okay, sorry. Like, it's not like doomed for failure. And that's all my show is here to say. I always let people know. Like my show is not here to say that this is what everyone should do. I know plenty of people that are monogamous vanilla would never do this.

And that's right. And I think the majority of people are that way. But what my show is here to say is that actually some people can do it. They do do it. And they're better for it. Sorry. Exactly. And I think that's an important thing for people to know.

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use promo code strictly anon at checkout and pay five bucks for shipping. That's it. Join Bluechew's mission to upgrade humanity one thrust at a time. Head to Bluetooth.com for details and safety info. And a big thanks to Bluechoo for sponsoring the podcast. I know plenty of people that are monogamous Vanilla would never do this. And that's right. And I think the majority of people are that way.

But what my show is here to say is that actually some people can do it. They do do it. and they're better for it. Sorry. Exactly. And I think that's an important thing for people to know. And it still is not known out there. I hear even Dr. Drew,

and I always bring him up because he's such a fucking asshole, talking about, you know, how terrible it is when people open up their marriages. It's doomed for failure. How the fuck do you know? I love that you're actually studying it. Yeah, well, that's the only way that we can really know. Exactly. People in their anecdotal evidence, the, you know, the three people in their lives

Exactly. People who came into their office if they're a therapist and they're fighting over it. And they've seen that in this particular case or in these particular five cases, things are not working out. And it's so easy to be like, okay, clearly it's not working out because of the non-monogamy. Yeah. And to then generalize it too. And clearly non-monogamy can't work for anybody if it didn't work for these three people

or five people or however many they have some direct information about. And the reality is also the sad reality right now is that because we live in this sort of in between space, in between the old ways when there was only one option that was acceptable and available to us, which was strict monogamy, right? You were either considered unhappily single waiting to get into your monogamous relationship or then you're finally in your monogamous relationship. So we have left that space and we're moving toward this greater plurality. of options available to us. But we have not arrived there in the sense that we know what the options really are, how to pick between those possible different structures, what the best one is for us.

And then how to actually do it, especially these less traditional forms that are not as visible and we don't have as many role models and information about. We don't really know you don't have the skills to do them right. And so in this transitional period, what you do end up getting is a lot of the people who are disappointed or disenchanted with the old version that was available. Right. It's not working for them. They see that there is something else out there.

They go and explore and try to create something different. But because we don't have enough information and role models and skills and all that, they often fail. Yeah. And so we are seeing probably a lot more people trying these alternative models in indeed. failing, but not because the models themselves are untenable. It's because people don't know how to do them well and they fuck them up. Yeah. And that's where like my podcast and podcasts nowadays comes into play and it's such a great thing because I got to tell you how many times I get an email. And I always am kind of like, oh God, did it. Like was it all my fault of that now? You're like having threesomes and gangbings because I will tell you even just yesterday on SDC when I give them my welcome email. They're like, oh my God, thank you, Kathy, for your show. Like we just opened up a relationship and it's all because we listen to. you and they like so many couples now are listening to podcasts to learn how to do it like what you were saying like they don't have that kind of role model and that's where people are coming on I think that

that's so smart because it needs to be intentional you do need to you know learn as much as you can I mean no matter how much you know you're going to go in and you know things might go awry but it shouldn't like break you you know and I think that nowadays the younger generation is so much more open-minded, but even the older people who are looking to change it up are coming to podcasts in different places to, you know, to get educated and figure out because they want to do it and they're, because it's becoming more mainstream. I got to say like with the whole hot-wifing thing, I never had a clue. And I was always very open-minded, always very open about sex. I had a lot of guy friends. I told me everything.

And not one of them ever copped to the fact that they would love to see their girl, fuck another guy, right? Even my booty call, who I've been banging for 10. 10 years, who's been my friend since the dawn of time, never. But recently, after he's heard me say a million times, like, I'm down for that. I would do it? He was like, would you fuck someone else for me? Like, all of a sudden, it's like a thing. And I was like horny for it. And I was like, oh my God, but I never knew that it was a thing. And I think a lot of people didn't. But nowadays, it's a lot more common and it's more out there and people are copping to it. And I think that's all super helpful for people to not feel like, oh my God, they just have this weird kink, you know,

and they keep it to themselves and they cheat on their partner and they're doing it. in a dark alley and it should all be out and proud. And then there's no darkness to it. Yeah, that's speak and preach woman. Absolutely. Well, can you speak and preach with your little bit of your life story? Because I do follow you on Instagram. So I see little tidbits about your life. Like, can I talk to you about like, why and how you became like, you know, who you are and what you do for living and then talk about like your relationship style and how you roll in that kind of stuff? Because I think it's super interesting. Sure. Yes. I'm happy to share.

Where would you like to start? Oh, start with why you start, you know, how you got into sexuality. I'm assuming you were always a curious person. Like, how did you become who you are? Yeah, I was absolutely always very sexual, very curious. It was masturbating from a very early age, and very early. And I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, really. It was pleasure that I was giving myself and it felt good in my body.

And so I kept doing it throughout my childhood and kindergarten years. and everything. And then, yeah, I was curious about everything once I went through puberty and started to kind of play around. I was a precocious teenager. So I got in all sorts of, you know, trouble. Right. Fun trouble and some less fun trouble over those early years.

Did you have shame, though, as a woman being so, like, open sexually because, like, that was a thing, right? Yeah, for sure. I grew up in Macedonia, which is a small country in Southeast Europe. a former Uislavian country. And it was very traditional, very, it wasn't religious. We had been a socialist country, so there was no religious shame. But we definitely had this kind of generally patriarchal, traditional, relatively conservative way of thinking about sex and relationships.

And so my curiosity and openness and willingness to actually go and explore were definitely not accepted with open arms. So I received a lot of. A lot of stigma from the environment. And initially, I was feeling it. But then, I don't know, there was something that clicked in me at some point. And I was like, I'm not doing anything wrong. I understand that this is not in line with the social norms in this environment where I live. But I really don't see anything ethically problematic with what I want or what I'm doing.

And so honestly, fuck you all. I'm just going to do what I want to do. Right. And then if people would warn me, well, no. one's going to marry you here. You're not going to be able to have a long-term relationship and that kind of stuff. If you want to have a family and love, like if you want to be loved, what I was being told is you can't also be super slutty and sexual.

And if you want, you know, it's either one or the other. And I was like, well, I want both. So, and if I can't get it here, I'm sure I'll be able to find it elsewhere. Yeah. And I'm going to leave Macedonia if every Macedonian man or woman things that they can't date, you know, or marry someone who's been sexually experienced. So I just decided at some point, relatively early on in my teen years, that I was not going to allow shame and the stigma to impede on the things that I wanted to do. The desire for adventure and sexuality was clearly an avenue that lit me up quite a bit. I was going to go and lean into it and go to.

I was so curious about everything. I wanted to go to all of these different corners of the sex and relational map to see what was there and where I was happy and where it wasn't. So that's what I did. I spent my whole life going to all the places. And then when time came to decide, you know, I did my undergrad in psych because I was so curious about why people do the things that they do, how and why, what motivates. us. And then when time came to decide what my PhD was going to be because I knew I wanted to do science and I wanted to kind of go down that path. My father was a professor at the university. So I kind of knew that academic life. And I had a lot of thirst for knowledge and wanted to create more,

more knowledge. And I asked myself, you know, what's the area that's going to keep my interest for the rest of my life? And it was such an obvious answer. Like, yeah. Of course. is going to be sexuality. What else? Could be more fascinating to understand more about and bring more knowledge into the world about than sexuality. So it was a pretty easy and straightforward decision almost. So then I applied to PhD programs in the U.S. because that's where some of the best programs are. I ended up getting into the developmental, like the human development program at Cornell. And I moved here in 2006.

So it's been almost 20 years. I did my PhD at Cornell, did a bunch of studies around casual sex, around non-heterosexuality, around promiscuity, in general, some non-monogamy stuff. So I was really always interested in these

expressions of sexuality that were outside the box, outside the norm. And I was very curious because obviously I was there too. I was outside the box. And I was curious, how people outside the box get to navigate their lives so that they get the sexual and relational pleasure and satisfaction and fulfillment that they want, but also maintain their physical,

emotional and social well-being in the worlds that they have to sort of negotiate this with that are not always friendly. And so that was always my curiosity and interest. And well because you were also living it too. I mean how were like when you came to America did you feel like there was any less stigma or because there was still stick I mean there's still even now and I think it's getting way better like when I was younger people called me a slut and I didn't do anything. It was just because I fucked guys without being like dating them. You know that that's how old I am. You know. But like when you had to have gotten here and I know you moved to New York City right because you're here in New York City or like I mean were you sitting across from guys that were like. No. stigma around what you were, like what you were doing? Or did you still find it here? I would assume you still found it here. It was interesting. During my PhD years, I was kind of going back and forth a lot between New York City. And because I would come here to party for long weekends for my winter breaks or summer breaks. I would spend a lot of time in New York. But then I was doing the PhD up in Ithaca, which is a very different world at Cornell. And there was a marked difference in the experiences that I had in

those two places. There was a lot more, because, you know, Ithaca, it's still a college town. You get a lot of undergrads, it's fat boys, and that kind of culture. Yeah. I could really feel the stigma. Of course, yeah. Like, the people who are hooking up with me, I could feel their, you know, their slut shaming. It was coming out sometimes very explicitly and sometimes in various implicit ways. And then I was comparing that to the very different experiences I was having in New York City because almost as soon as I arrived here, I kind of connected with the sex positive community in the city.

So people who were going to play parties and, you know, polygroups and swinger clubs and that kind of stuff. And that was a very different experience to finally see. That was the first time that I could observe for kind of an extended period of time and meet different kinds of people who were in these alternative lifestyle relational models that were working out, you know, people who were married and people who were married with kids and navigating these open relationships for, for years and decades. And there was no stigma there. So, and I knew, I knew that was there. There was a voice in me. Ever since I was a little girl when I was

growing up in Macedonia, I was like, I know that that's there. Right. And that's possible because you wanted to like do what you wanted to do, but you always. wanted to be in a romantic relationship and have that connection. Absolutely. It was not an either or. Yeah, but honestly, I know that those, that box didn't seem to exist, you know, anywhere. And it's, of course, you found it more so in New York.

And that was a much, probably a smaller community than it is now. It's just growing, right, since you got here. But thank God you found that, you know. I had to, man. I had to. It was in a sense it was life or death because people like, who grow up like us, there is a lot of isolation that you feel from the broader kind of community. I always had a few close friends.

And that is often enough. You don't need to be loved by everybody. And that was one of the things that I also had to kind of learn and accept and embrace as I was growing up. You realize, you know, a lot of people are not going to like me because of how I'm choosing to live my life, even if I've never done anything bad to them. but that's okay as long as I have a buffer zone of, you know, a few close people who do love me and respect me and all of that. And I've always had that. But there, you know, you always feel kind of the, that stigma, that ostracism that comes from the outside. And to not have that and to have a

broader community of people who are like, yeah, you're fine. Whatever you're doing, you're doing good, girl, you know, beyond those five, ten, however many close friends to have a group of hundreds of people in the city who, you know, some of those are weak ties and some of those are, you know, baby people you've, you might not even know that you've just seen. But knowing that there's an implicit approval and acceptance, that was huge. That was certainly huge during those early years, especially also, you know, I'm new. I'm coming to a new country without family. around me and all that. So it was, it was really, really important to have that, to have found that. Hey, guys, want to play down there in your anal region without going anywhere inside and feel the pleasure of stronger orgasms, stronger erections, and combat any kind of ED that you have going on,

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That's B-U-T-T-E-R-W-E-L-L-N-E-S-S dot com and use code strictly. Without family around me and all that. So it was really, really important to have that, to have found that. Yeah, and I think that's what the cities are full of, especially New York, right? Like all the people that didn't fit in anywhere else, you come to New York and you're like, And that's what's so great about New York. You know, it's like anyone fits. You all can find your people here.

You know what I mean? Like, I know I needed to get out of where I was from and felt much more able to be me and thrive in this city than I did in suburbia, you know? And I think it was probably the same for you. Like, I was always hated for a lot of things that I was as a woman. But like I always said, like, it's not like it doesn't bother me that people don't like me or don't like these parts of myself. But like my desire to be myself, like that need for me to be myself,

is just stronger than my need for people to like me. And that's a difference between me and a people pleaser. Those people pleasers have my same shit in them, but their need is strong for people to like them. Like for me, I do bother me that people didn't like me for certain things, but it didn't win over my having to be who I was, you know, and I'm sure you're the same way.

Like your desire to live sexually and also romantically the way that you were was, it couldn't be stopped, right? No matter how much negativity you got. It was stronger than your desire to have be accepted. I wasn't going to let it. No, it was, as I said, that was a decision I made early on. I maybe it was 14, 15 when I said, these rules, I see the rules, I understand them. I disagree with them.

I don't want to live by those rules. And if that means a lot of people are not going to like me, that's okay. because it's more important to live authentically. What's true for me inside of me, as opposed to what's outside of me dictating how I'm going to live my life. And I was okay if that meant always being somewhat on the margins of society, outside the matrix. I was like, that's okay.

Because the matrix and the more and more, you know, as I grew up and got older and wiser and more informed about everything, how it all works, I was like, you know what, the matrix that most of us are playing. plugged into, not that great. I'm kind of happy being outside that. You are. Yeah. And what a perfect concoction you were. Like it was kind of like meant to be for you. Like, I mean, the fact that not only was this your life and this is what you wanted to do, you actually like were very highly intelligent enough to go get your PhD and devote your life to sort of proving everything that you were born with. Right?

Like, I mean, you know, and so here you are very hard, very well-spoken woman, you know, that's very highly sexual. Like you just go against all the sort of stereotypes and that's what we need and that's what people need to hear from. And you're like it's that like you're doing science. You know, you're getting real effing data to prove like your own life, which I think is wonderful and needed. Amen. Yes. I feel very blessed to have had that combination. And you have found a guy. You are in like you do live like you did find a guy correct. Like you have an Oh, like, you did a funny, I got to tell you, I was, I did get taken by your Valentine's Day. You did a funny, or was it April Fool's?

April Fool's day, yeah. You did an Oprah Fool's joke like, oh, I'm with this guy and we're just playing on being monogamous and vanilla. And then it was like April Fool's. I was like, oh, my God. But you haven't. So just explain like how your relationship rolls now. Like you're in an open relationship.

You met a guy who totally accepts everything. Like how to, how is it all set up? Yeah. I mean, I have definitely found love. So those predictions that nobody. was going to love me or want to marry me have not come true. I'm happy to inform. I found love before.

I was married for a while and that ended in very nice, friendly terms. And I am now in a relatively new relationship. We're about to hit two years. And it's been wonderful. He's a wonderful human. It's probably the best relationship that both of us, not probably,

it is the best relationship that both of us have ever had as we've gotten older and wiser and sort of more in touch with ourselves and more healed from whatever wounds we all carry throughout our lives and we are open we did start with a year of monogamy actually which I was very happy to do especially during this time that I'm so deep in writing a book and doing this big research study. So there's not a lot of time and energy for play. So we have not been super active in our openness, but we're definitely open.

And we're going to be more and more open over time as we find more time to actually devote to that has not been a super high priority. But yeah, I had to play around with folks on April's. Yeah, it was good. You got me. But that guy, like your guy, was he? like in vanilla relationships before you and you sort of brought him into that world? Like,

or what was his backstory? You know, he had always been in supposedly monogamous relationships, but then cheated often on his partners because clearly his desire for sexual openness and exploration was higher than what monogamy really allows for, but he did not have the language. He did not have the concepts, the skill.

even the self-confidence to actually seek it out and negotiate it in these open ways. He was just, you know, existing within that pattern or framework that we have, that there is monogamy and then there is cheating. There's no other way to be non-monogynsored to have. Yeah, or you're single, right? So he kind of went in and out of these medium-term relationships that were satisfying on some levels, but obviously not fully satisfying. And so that was his history. And he had been curious as he's gotten older.

He had had some transformational experiences. He had a relationship actually where he didn't cheat right before me. So that was a big step forward for him. but then it wasn't satisfying in some other ways. And he had always been curious about an openly open relationship. He had gone to some play parties on his own before we met. Interesting. Just a couple.

He had just dipped his toes a little bit. And so he was curious to actually be in a relationship that would be able to incorporate that openly. And then I showed up. Oh, I love that. Because I was wondering, like when you're sitting across and dating guys, you know, like how do you let them know? I mean, is it like they could just find you online and that's how he knew like who you were and what you were all about or because, you know, like, or did you sit him down on the second day and tell him like by the way? This is what I'm. I'm very easily findable.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's usually very out in the open kind of what my lifestyle and work and all of that are about. So that that conversation is often a first date conversation. In this particular, case we met very organically we met it um he likes to tell the story like this we met at a bar a pull-up bar oh which became a pickup bar outside gym and it was it was really a beautiful meeting because that day that morning that we met was the last morning that he was living on the lower east side that night he was leaving for portugal for a whole month and and then after coming back he was going to live in Ridgewood. So this was sort of the last chance.

Yeah, if you saw him there at that bar, I love it. Yeah, so. I think the big important things are like set in stone. You know what I mean? Like there was your next guy. And he was like you, wired like you, like wanting a real relationship and a real connection romantically with someone, but also with that openness. And I love that you guys were monogamous in the beginning, you know, just to because

probably you're just having so much fun with each other, right? Exactly. Yeah. When you're new with somebody, there is so much curiosity and novelty to explore. You don't know each other. There's so many new things to do. Exactly. And also, so it's very fun.

Your desire for other people, usually in the beginning, when you're really excited about someone, is much lower, even if you are someone like me who's very high on that need for sexual exploration. But in that moment, he was the sexual exploration. Exactly. Right? In that beginning. And then also there's another component, another reason why I generally recommend when I work

with clients and teach students that it's a good idea to start a relationship monogamous. If, you know, you see someone who you're really interested in and want to develop potentially a long-term, you see a long-term potential and want to work on kind of developing that long-term potential, it's good to create a stable base, the base of trust, based of where you know each other. How are you in, you know, situations that might be stressful? How are you when maybe you're having an argument? You know, how do you repair?

How do you solve challenging, emotionally challenging, an approach, emotionally challenging situations? That takes a little bit of time to build. You're right. And it's, this is not a universal advice by any means. There are certainly situations and relationships where it makes sense to start it out open. Yeah. But in many cases, it makes sense to start out monogamous, even if you both want to be non-monogamous at some point.

Right. And so I recommend people having that conversation early on, you know, what their ideal structure is. But even if they're both like, yeah, I'm curious in some form of open or poly, still consider maybe starting out for some period of time, maybe three months, six months a year, whatever makes sense to really get to know each other and enjoy each other. before you add more people in. And then there's, if this ends up being a long-term relationship, then there's plenty of time to introduce all of these other forms of novelty that can come in in the form of new people and new configurations of threesomes. You know, is it a woman? Is it a man?

Is it a trans woman? Is it a couple? There's so many different little things that can be then added on. Yeah, I'm always like why I start at the top of the mountain. you know what I mean? Then where do you go? It's like, why not start at the bottom? And also you have, like you said, isn't there like a specific amount of months

where that like chemistry thing that you have and those endorphins that you have in a new relationship? Isn't that last for like eight months? Isn't there a certain amount of time that that lasts for? Absolutely. Yeah. That stage of infatuation or new relationship energy. Uh-huh.

Depending on how there's some individual differences in that regard in terms of how long it lasts for people. There's also differences depending on how. join that the hip people become. So it can last somewhere between six months and a year and a half, maybe even two. If you don't spend a lot of time together, there's kind of a lot of space and distance between you so that that mystery remains. Whereas if you get joined at the hip very early on, you exhaust basically a lot of that mystery

sooner. Yeah, makes sense. That infatuation and your brain really, as you said, your body and brain are in a different state. Different kinds of hormones are circulating through our brains and neurotransmitters that are not usually present in those quantities when we're not infatuated. And that, all of that biochemistry depends on this person being somewhat new, somewhat mysterious. There is something that we don't know about them. Once we get to know everything and how they are every moment of the day and what they're doing and what they're thinking, what their story is, like if there's not much more to explore to find out about them, then that that comes down, that desire for that insane butterflies and desire to be with them all the time that will slowly dissipate. And so, yeah, if you can, that's another recommendation I give clients and students, is.

extend that period as much as you can. Don't get joined at the hip right away. Don't start living together six months in. Yeah. I mean, it's up to you. It's up to you. Depend on how long you want this feeling to last. Yeah. Is it a good feeling?

You want to prolong it? Yeah. Don't see each other six days a week. Maybe see each other two, three days a week. Yeah. Don't talk on the phone four hours a day. You know, have a half hour conversation or something like that, you know. Don't don't go out.

with them every single time and without, you know, have your own friend group do something else that's on your own, that you can then come back and tell them about it. So having some amount of distance space will generally prolong. Yeah, I love that. Because I do think a lot of people, like when that sort of dissipates, it's a normal thing and it's going to happen to everybody. Like, they think that something's missing or something's wrong. I mean, not everybody feels that way, But sometimes, and then sometimes that's when the problem start. And it's like, no, this is a natural part of the way that it goes, right? Like, it's just, that's what's supposed to happen.

And it's going to happen. It's inevitable. And you need to be able to be happy in that state without that high, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the, you can't, you certainly cannot prevent it from happening. Right.

And I said, you can prolong it. Yes. You can also, for some people, it might completely disappear. Mm-hmm. And that may be a problem. Yeah. But for in long-term happy relationships, that crazy high that you were on at the beginning comes down to some more manageable levels.

Because also that state is not a sustainable long-term state for the brain and the body. Right. That's like being on cocaine. Yeah, that's like physically. Yeah. I love it. On cocaine and ecstasy the whole time. Yeah, exactly.

It really is. Yeah. You know that you can't sustain that. Yeah. It's very distracting. You know, you can't really focus as much. you can't be as productive in other areas as much. So it's not, you can certainly get addicted to that,

which is why people sometimes will create a pattern where they go into a new relationship, they experience the high, and then as soon as the high is gone, they'll move on to the next relationship to keep chasing that high. But that's not the most healthy kind of pattern to have. In long-term healthy relationships,

you have some level of that that is still there, right? You feel attraction for your partner. You still feel love. You still have a close connection. You're still continually feeding it with novelty in other ways. You're even either, certainly there's sexual novelty components you can bring in, but there's also other things, travel, venture sports, you know, new things that you can keep doing. And so in a good long-term successful relationship, you have some more moderate amount of that excitement that you're still.

feeling and nurturing actively and intentionally nurturing. Yeah, I love that. Let's talk about, okay, so now you do have a book. You're going to come back on when your book is out

and we're going to talk about it. You've been furiously writing a book and that is, and this study that you're doing is going to be included, right, in the book. That's what you're waiting for. And let's like talk about the book

and what it's about and then talk about like some kinds of like stuff that people will be answering. I think it's kind of interesting, right? Like the kind of questions that are in there and then, you know, that'll be, and then we'll wrap it up.

Sure, sure. So yes, for the last couple of years, I've been deep in writing a book, which is also why I have not been as active on socials and talks and podcasts and that kind of stuff. It's been a very different period for me.

Writing a book is a hard, hard thing. I know your book is about to come out so you know how it is. And this one was really a big undertaking. It's my first book, In the U.S., I published a book on sexual orientation in Macedonia many years ago, but this is going to be my first book in the U.S.

And it's a really big book that combines, summarizes, not just summarize, but organize, systematize, and also now scientifically tests my entire knowledge and understanding that I've combined and compiled both from the research and the academic work that I've done, the consulting work that I've done and also my my personal experiences that I've had traveling around the the sexual and relational map about how and what is important for us to be able to thrive in our sexual and relational lives because sex and relationships is something that has such a massive impact on the quality of our lives. Esther Perel always talks about She has this beautiful quote that the quality of our intimate relationships determines the quality of our lives more broadly.

And it really is true. There's tons of evidence to suggest that it has an oversized impact on everything, downstream, everything about our lives. How happy, how healthy, how productive, how successful. All of these things are impacted by how much we thrive in our sex and love lives. And yet, this is an area that we actually have a lot of control over. certainly not entirely but a lot of it has to do with what we decide to do who we decide to have sex with who we decide to date or marry and have kids with and so on and whereas many of the other things that impact the quality of our lives in such a profound way we don't have a lot of control over you know wars

and economies and you know natural disasters illness yeah all that time yeah those kinds of things we can't do much about but this is something that we have so much control over and so I feel so strongly about helping people make these smarter decisions about their sex and love lives that are going to leave a lot more emotional bandwidth and energy and time because they're not fighting, they're not struggling in that area to be able to focus on these other areas and find situations that are supportive for them. And so as part of that bigger goal, this book comes in, the book is called Love Smarter. the five relationship structures and how to find the right one for you. And it basically helps people understand the relational map. The kinds of structures that are available to us that we can choose to be in and argue that there are these five main structures, monogamy, open, which is romantically monogamous, but sexually open, Polly, which is both sexually sexually. and romantically open.

Singledom, which can incorporate sexual, various kinds of sexual connections, but no romantic long-term relationships, and then celibacy, which has neither sexual nor romantic connections and relationships. And within each of these, there is a number of different ways, sort of subtypes of how we can go about them,

but there's these very meaningful, qualitatively meaningful distinctions between these five ways of kind of going through life in terms of the number and types of sexual and romantic partners that you are negotiating and navigating. And the argument is that first you have to be in the right structure in order to be successful and happy and fulfilled. You need to be in the right structure. Sort of almost somewhat secondary is finding the right partner. Meaning you have to figure out what you

really authentically want and need and what's right for you regardless of what anyone thinks. Because some people are lying to themselves, right? Is what you're saying? A lot of people are lying to themselves again because we've, for such a long time, we've had this only one option that has been hailed

as the place where everybody is going to be happy and healthy and that's strict monogamy. And that is simply not true. These five different kind of countries if you will, on the relational landscape, they fit different people and at different times in people's lives. We can certainly be thriving in one of these at one point in our lives and another one at different

points in our lives. So it's not like we're set in stone, but they are designed, these different countries are designed to meet different levels of our needs for sexual exploration, sexual security, romantic exploration, and romantic security. And depending on to what extent we have these, we are more or less likely to thrive in these various structures. And that's what the core of the book is about. It helps you figure out based on your unique combination of these needs for sexual and romantic security and sexual and romantic exploration. Your unique combination of these speaks to kind of orientes you.

toward the ideal relationship structure that is going to be the best fit for you, at least at this point, in your life. And then there is a third component of the book, which is taking into consideration your specific life circumstances, because it's not just about what's inside you. These needs for security and exploration in the sexual and romantic domain are certainly that deep core of who we are and what we need and what's most authentic. to us, but then there's also the reality of our lives, right? We might already have partners. We might have different value systems and different levels of skills that we already have or different other contexts that are either constraining our options or really encouraging

and helping us have exactly what we want. So then that third part of the book is helping you weigh in kind of some of those other real life constraints. against what you would ideally want. So the book is this journey. First, part one takes you through the relational landscape. Part two helps you figure out where you stand on this combination of sexual and romantic needs, specifically for security and exploration.

We look at it as a bidimensional grid where you can be high on both, low on both, or high on one, low on the other. Yeah. So you can be anywhere along that spectrum. And then that gives you kind of your ideal relational structure. And then you go into part three where you kind of calibrate that to your particular situation at this point in life. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I mean, all I ever read growing up was self-health books.

Like I was never into fake story books or anything. Like I was like a chapter reader. I love self-help books. I read every relationship book out there. And I don't feel like they're, you know, like all those ones with attachment style. and men are for more, so more, like, all those great things. But I don't feel like there's been one that has included all of these relationship styles, right? It's very, like, needed right now.

It's the perfect timing for it, right? And I feel like it could be revolutionary. Like, I think it's great because there are, especially with the younger generation now, there's so much more open-minded. Everyone's very anti-labels and all this shit. But I love them. I feel like everyone needs, people love sort of figuring themselves out and having a box where they belong, right? it makes you feel less weird or abnormal or whatever.

And I love that there's five in your thing. You know what I mean? Because we all grew up with like two, right? So I think it's super interesting. And what this whole, and this brings us back to your study. Like your study is based upon, I'm assuming, these five different boxes. And like the questions will give the data of like where people lie in those. Is that what this whole study is about?

Yeah. Yeah. So the study is testing, well, first of all, is developing measures, validated, you know, scientifically valid, validated measures for our needs, those individual differences in the needs for sexual exploration, sexual security, romantic exploration, and romantic security. So there's four construct that we have conceptualized and are now measuring. So many of the questions, the first part of the survey of this first survey is a set of questions that are going to try and measure, right, how much you need, you know, Romantic security or sexual exploration or any one of those four. So there will be a lot of items about that, how important that is or how desirable some of these different kinds of experiences are that speak to those needs for exploration and security.

and then we'll use the scores that people get on those needs and the combination of them to predict which of the five main structures would be sort of the ideal place for them. So you will have data on like which one has the most people in it and stuff like that? We will have that. Yeah, absolutely. That's interesting. So this is the first survey that is live right now is mentioned. to primarily develop the measures, then once we have shorter measures, right now the measures

are very long because when you first start developing measures, you put in more items than you're eventually going to end up in because you want to find the best items that really measure this construct in the best way in terms of psychometric characteristics. So when we have shorter measures of this, there will be a second round of data collection that we're going to take a nationally representative sample of the population. And so we'll know how are people distributed in the country as a whole. How are they distributed on how much of these four needs they have? And then how does that translate to what the ideal relationship structure that will be for them?

Yeah, fascinating. I like data. I'm obsessed with data. Like, really. is the best. Yeah, so the study will basically test the connection between the part two of the study. What's true core authentic for you in terms of your deepest needs? Yeah. And how that connects to that first part of the book, which is where on the landscape do you most belong? Right. And right now I have a set of hypotheses for exactly, you know, what combination of needs is going to predict what relationship

structure. That's the one thing I'm not going to share with people publicly. I don't want to contaminate the data. Of course you can. People can have their ideas for how these things combined to predict each other, but that will come after we have the data. And yes, I'm hoping, I mean, that's the plan, that we will be able to incorporate data both from this first survey and that second survey that I mentioned,

where we have nationally representative data, we'll be able to incorporate all of that in the book. because right now there is a lot of circumstantial, like indirect evidence that this model that I've built in the book is correct. And I've tested this, you know, without having the data. Yeah, of course. Specifically, I've tested it in my, you know, consulting practice and with all of the people that I've helped navigate their relationships with. But nobody has conceptualized these needs in this broad and comprehensive way, the way I'm doing it here. bits and pieces that have been conceptualized. Like we have, for example,

measures out there that have been used very widely of interesting casual sex. Right. But interesting casual sex, and it's important, and we even have a term for people who are more oriented toward casual sex. It's called sociosexual orientation, and people who are unrestricted on their sociosexual orientation are more into casual sex than people who are restricted in their sociosexual orientation. But when you think, when you think, more broadly, casual sex interest is just one part. It's one piece of this broader desire for sexual exploration and adventure. And nobody has really developed scales to capture the entirety of it, the breadth of that construct,

and then the other three constructs of sexual security, Romantic exploration and Romantic security. And because of that, nobody has been able to test directly what these hypotheses are saying. There's just this indirect circumstantial evidence that that is indeed the case. So this is going to be really interesting. You know, the book is already written. The first draft of the book is written. We're now condensing it and editing it and cleaning it up. But it's already written as if these are correct. And we'll see what the data shows. If the data shows something else, we'll have to change it. Oh my God. I can't wait. I'm going to take the quiz for sure. I feel like You know, like you saying the status, like your status can change.

I feel very different about, I was never interested in having a long-term relationship with anybody, really. It just wasn't my thing. Like I had, but I had wonderful short-term relationships. I met so many people. I didn't want to spend my whole life with one person. It just was never appealing to me. But after having my son, I'm like, oh, like, once he doesn't want to hang out with me, I want a partner in my life. Like, I'm used to having a companion around and I don't ever want to go back to being alone.

So I did completely change. but one is not wrong. Like it wasn't like I was wrong before. I just like life changed and I change, you know? And so I feel like I can't wait to take the test and see how different my answers. I'm going to be thinking like what would my answer have been before my son to now? Let me ask you a quick question. Two questions.

Let me just follow up on that. It's actually a very good point to make for people that these things absolutely do change over time. We are not set in stone where we are on these different needs. can and does change with age, changes with life circumstances, changes with, you know, we meet somebody specifically who brings out some things in us that we're never really there before. So the claim here is never that this is how it is for you now. It has always been that way and always will be that way. No, this is a snapshot in time.

Yeah, right now. And you absolutely can. And in the book, I will be encouraging people to look at the scale, look at like the quiz, that measures these different needs. And you can take it for how you feel right now. You can take it for how you felt, you know, whatever, five years, ten years ago. Yeah, interesting. You can take it for how you think you might feel, you know, in a year or two or five.

Because maybe right now, I don't know, maybe right now you're in med school and things are different than when you're going to be out of med school or you just had a new baby and things are going to be different in three years or five years. So these things absolutely can change. And the idea is to know how these things are connected so that you can pay attention to how things are changing or can predict how things might be changing in the near or farther future and to be able to calibrate kind of what your relationship structure looks like to be as close to that ideal as you possibly can within the constraints of your life. Yeah, I love that. Now, how long do I have to take, like, how long do people have to take this first quiz? because there's going to be another one.

So there must be like, do you want everyone? Like, is there a time limit that this first one is going until? What's that time? Yes. The first one deadline is December 15th. Okay, great. So there's like a month. I'm going to air this like ASAP.

So people have a month. I'm going to put a link. There's a link directly to it, right? Okay. There's a link directed to it. I'm going to put a link in the description. So anyone driving, you just have to click there and take it. I think it's super interesting.

Now, the last question I have is like the questions are like the answers multiple choices. choice or is it like scaled one to ten put your thing like how are the how do you answer yeah the or are they all different yeah no most of the survey is multiple choice there's a demographics section which is all multiple choice yeah and there's always an other option if none of the multiple choices you know resonate with you so you can always write in something that is more true for you but interesting they're all multiple choice questions and then there is the main portion of the survey is all these questions that are developing the measures for the needs, the four needs. And those are all on a scale of not at all important to very important or not at all desirable

to very desirable. So like a five point scale. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that comes a section that asks about relationship, the current relationship situation, your current satisfaction with your relationship situation. it tests for things like attachment styles and others personality characteristics and some other things. And almost all of the questions are either multiple choice questions or these rating scales that are pretty kind of easy to answer.

You can take it on a computer. You can also take it on a phone. We initially thought it was too long to be taken on the phone. But you can. You took it on the phone. It said it's absolutely pretty seamless. It can be done. So, yeah, as I said, there is a, the initial, the main portion is about 35, 40 minutes,

and then there's another 15 minute optional section that you can take. Well, I love this. I can't wait for your book to come out. You will come back again. I love to. Right? We'll do when the second study is coming out, you could come back on. I love talking to you because you're super smart.

And like I said, you put like data and science to like everything that I talk about. Like I love that you're, you know, you're proving everything that all the people on my show are talking about. which is needed. So thank you so much for finally coming on. I've asked you before, like I remember like when I first saw you like, oh my God, you're like,

oh, when my book comes out, I'll come on. I'm like, I'm so glad this study came out because I'm like, oh, this is the perfect time, right? Why not? I'll advertise this.

I think it's perfect for my audience. I'm going to take it and I will put the link in the description, but thanks so much for coming on. I love it. This was fun. Thank you so much for having me. You're right. This was actually the perfect opportunity to come on,

tell people about the study, get them excited, get them in, this is the first cohort and we're going to keep collecting data. So people who want to come back for some of the other surveys, they'll be able to also leave their name and email and we'll reach out. And they can be part, I mean, they can really be part of this groundbreaking and hopefully massive research study that is just going to grow and continue and will continue to get more data and refine these measures and refine the hypotheses.

So I'm really, really excited. This is, you know, when I finished my PhD, which was about 10 years ago, and I had done all the research for my thesis, and these were all, as I said earlier, you know, on casual sex and non-heterosexuality, but it all felt a little small. Yeah. It all felt like, okay, but I'm just like tinkering at the edges here. Yeah. And research takes so much time and energy and effort that I said to myself, you know what, I'm going to step away from this. and go, especially, you know, coming out of academia, you're in that academic bubble, ivory tower. And I was like, I want to do research that's useful to people that they can really apply in their lives to make them better.

And I'm going to remove myself from research for a bit. I'm going to go out, you know, into the non-academic world. And I'm not going to come back to research until I have something big to test, something really meaningful and important to test. And I have really not really done research for the last 10 years. I'm coming back to it now because I finally have it. I've been working on it. It's been percolating and refining and refining and we're finally here. So I'm super, super excited.

Yeah, I love it. And people that listen to this show, these are the people that I want to go to the study and have their voice and be in there and be represented because they need to be. You know, there's no more. My show is anonymous because I started 11. years ago and, you know, people are still unfortunately having to hide who they are because of all the stigmas. But things like this are only going to help people not being having to be anonymous 10, 20 years from now. So take the quiz and give her some your data. It's needed. Thank you so much for calling in and I will

put the link in the description and I'll have you back on. Amazing. Thanks, Kathy. Bye. Bye. Bye. Okay. Okay. I just want to tell you before you go that I do have a book coming out. The book is called Shirkly anonymous Confessions, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. The book is basically seven different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story. There's a cuck queen story. There's a cuckold story. There's a gangbang girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person, right? So I took the interview and I rewrote it in the third person. I wouldn't call it like an erotica book, though there's plenty of sex in there, right?

But I didn't write it to sound like erotica because that's like the vibe of my show. You're going to learn a lot. You're probably going to get a little turned on. It's a different way to hear these stories, like I said, because they're written out in third person. There's an ebook available if you don't want your partner to know that you're reading my book. Get the ebook. It's available. There will be an audio book available very soon after it comes.

comes out. I did not narrate it. I was going to, but I passed on it because I sucked at the job. Okay, I couldn't do it at all, but I got a hot check to narrate the book. So you're going to dig the audiobooks. If you buy my book in any format, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. That is my gift to you for getting my book. My Discord does not disappoint. Okay. There's no way you'll get the Discord and go in there and be like, oh, this sucks. Okay. It's like pretty amazing. There's tons of people on there and everybody shares content with each other. That's what's great about Discord. You get to post your own videos and pictures and there's tons of channels and we have contests over there. It's a super fun place to be. I will be giving anyone that buys my book at any time

access to my Discord. It is private. It's the only way you could get in is through me giving you the link. And that's why I think my Discord is so great because I have vetted people. It's not like it's just open to the public. So everybody that's in there are people that listen to my show and people that listen to my show are fucking great. So my Discord is fucking great. My book is great. You're going to love it. If you buy it, all you got to do is send me the receipt or a picture of proof that you bought it and I will give you free access to my Discord. Send it to Strictly Anonymous Podcasts at Gmail. com. You could find my book in the link in the description, okay, or just Google it,

Strictly Anonymous Confessions, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. You can find it anywhere. You buy books. Send me the picture and I'll give you access to my Discord email, strictly anonymous podcast at Gmail.com. Anyway, thanks so much for listening. Okay, I just want to tell you before you go that my book, it's called Strictly Anonymous Confession, Secret Sex Lives,

of total strangers is now available not only in paperback and e-book, but you can pre-order the audiobook. It's still not going to be out until August 25th, but you can pre-order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story. There's a cuck queen story. There's a cuck story. There's a gang-bang girl story.

Like I said, 17 stories, and they're all told in the third person, and they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person, and I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book. Think like penthouse letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that kind of vibe, right? But these are true stories, 17 of them. They're really short chapters, easy read.

You could read, you know, one or two, and then skip a row. round. You could read the whole book. It's available in eback format, paperback format, and finally, the audio book is available coming out August 25th, but you could pre-order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or pre-order it, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint, okay? There's no way you get into my Discord any other way than getting the link from me. Okay, I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. everybody shares content with each other and that's what you get to do there you can post your own pictures and videos there's tons of channels we have lots of contests where you can win a lot of money

it's a super fun place to be it's a total strictly anonymous community and you will love it i will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my discord it's private like i said all you got to do is email me a screenshot of your purchase whether you did the audiobook the ebook or the paperback send it to me at Strictly Anonymous Podcast at gmail.com. That's Strictly Anonymous Podcasts at gmail.com. And I will send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast.