Strictly Anonymous Confessions - 1611 - Why Some Men Love Sharing Their Wives — The Psychology of Compersion w/ Marie Thouin

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Starting point is 00:01:02 Kathy. Hey, welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast with Kathy. If you want to follow the Strictly Anonymous podcast on Instagram or Twitter, follow me at Strict Anonymous. If you want to be on the show, it's called Strictly Anonymous because they change everyone's voices and names. Okay. So if you have an interesting secret naughty life that you want to talk about while remaining

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Starting point is 00:02:59 Okay, today. I have on Dr. Marie Thu. And I really wanted her on when I saw that she wrote a book all on compersion. Her book is called What is Compersion, understanding positive empathy in consensually non-monogamous relationships. She's a dating and relationship coach who studied compersion and she's here to talk all about it. I learned a lot from her, okay, as far as perjian is concerned. I always thought it was just a feeling, but it's not. She talks about that, and she talks about so much more. She talks about how she learned about compersion. I was really curious about the participants that she talked to, because that is how she studied it.

Starting point is 00:03:40 She talks specifically about the participants she brought in their demographics, what she learned, what she believes. She talks about her gas pedal and brake pedal model. She talks about the difference between, you know, real compersion and erotic compersion. That was interesting to me. We talk a lot about jealousy and how jealousy and conversion can exist at the same time or not exist at the same time. She breaks that down. She breaks so much down.

Starting point is 00:04:10 I can't explain it as well as she does. Okay, when it comes to compersion, she's the expert. She also does coaching and she does free 30-minute phone calls if you want to use her as a coach and she gave all that information at the end, but you're going to want to listen to all the information before that. So I'm going to get right to be right back on with Dr. Marie. This is the strictly anonymous podcast. Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Hi, Marie. Dr. Marie, too, and welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast. Did I say your name, your last name right? Yes, he said it perfectly. Thank you so much for having me, Kathy.

Starting point is 00:04:46 No, thanks so much. I've been dying to get you on. I think you didn't see my DM until like a really long time after I sent it to you because you know, the reason I want you on you on is because not only are you a dating and relationship coach, you're also an author of a book called What Is Compersion? And there's a long tagline to it you're going to give it. And I'm like, oh my God, we're always

Starting point is 00:05:04 talking about Comperion on my show. I need her on my show. So give the title of the long title of your book first. Yep. So it's What is Compersion Understanding Positive Empathy in Consensually Non-Monogamous Relationships. I love that.

Starting point is 00:05:20 Now, listen, Dr. Maria, I always like to know, like, why did somebody get into being, like, a dating and relationship coach, but more specifically with you, I would want to know, like, why did you go down the whole researching, the whole compersion thing and writing a book all about it? Yeah. Well, I was always uncomfortable with mononormativity, which is the assumption that everyone should be monogamous all the time. Right. Yeah, I got it.

Starting point is 00:05:47 It's just that didn't really work for me. It didn't work for my system. for my instincts around love and relationship and sexuality. So I was always intrigued with people who did relationships differently. Right. How did you do relationships your life, in your life? Well, I, you know, I have gone through many phases of non-monogamy and monogamy and struggling in the places in between.

Starting point is 00:06:13 Right now I am polyamorous and I feel more at home in my relationship life than I have ever felt. So this is the way that seems to work best for me. Polly. I mean, I feel like Polly sometimes gives me a headache with certain people on my show, but I feel like when Polly is done right, there's nothing more clear and beautiful, you know, but a lot of times people try Polly. They think they're Polly, and it just, it's, I don't know, it gives me a little bit of a headache. It's not easy to manage.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I feel like you have to be highly evolved to be able to be Polly. Real Polly. Well, I mean, it also really depends on who is in your relational ecosystem, because it can be a headache or it can be really, really beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And for people who might not know the distinctions, I think in a language, polyamory is when we invite or, you know, like allow for emotionally entangled relationships with multiple people, not just sexual relationships outside of a primary couple. so it can take many forms, but basically it is about inviting love with more than one person, not just sex. Yeah, that's what I always thought was the difference between like a non-monogamous couple and a polyamorous couple yet. I had a guy on my show and he's been on my show many times.

Starting point is 00:07:33 His name is Adam and Adam Darrow and he wrote a great book called Seek the Rest. You just interviewed him as well. And the reason why you did, I think you saw him on Dan Savage or so. And Dan Savage is like, oh, he's the first guy that wrote a Polly memoir. I'm like, you didn't write a fuck it. You were never Polly. Like, I'm like, why are they calling it a Polly memoir? And what is, maybe I don't know what Polly means.

Starting point is 00:07:54 And why is he Polly? Because he was never, I mean, that was definitely not a thing for him. They were just very non-monogamous, but not Polly. I always felt like Polly, in order to be Polly, the difference was there was romantic feelings involved as well. Right? Yeah, yeah. And of course, you know, like the limits of language are upon us, you know, like sometimes we use poly as a shorthand.

Starting point is 00:08:17 Is that what it is? Non-monogamous. Yes, yes. And actually Dan Savage did speak to that on his podcast recently and he was like, yeah, I know I'm not Polly or I'm not really meaning Polly when I say Polly under duress or other expressions that include Polly, but it just rolls off the tongue so much better than E&M or non-monogamous or consensually non-monogamous, these like longer words. So sometimes we just have to.

Starting point is 00:08:43 kind of roll with the language that people use. I don't know. To me there's a very big difference between the two, but let's talk about what you talk about, which is compersion. And, you know, why don't you give the exact, like, definition of that? Because I feel like people get that confused as well. Sure. Yeah. Most people think of compersion as simply feeling happy when your partner is experiencing pleasure with someone else, which is one definition of compersion. But from my research, I discovered that there's a couple other definition. So there is that one, like feeling positive emotions when your partner is experiencing joy in another intimate relationship. But I also discovered that it can be thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that are experienced positive ones, you know, like positive thoughts and behaviors and attitudes when your partner is experiencing joy with someone else.

Starting point is 00:09:36 So compersion is not just an emotion. And beyond that, compersion can also be applied to circumstances. outside of non-monogamy. So it's really experiencing positive empathy in any circumstance like my son just had a great day at school or my friend got a promotion and I'm sharing their joy. Right. Their joy brings you joy. Exactly. Right. So that could, I mean, you know, so then everyone's feeling it a lot. I mean, I feel like parents have that always, I have that always with my child for sure, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But in, like, in relationships, when I, when I have people on my show, you know, like before I did my show and probably still, if I didn't do my show, I would never even know that hot wiping was a thing. I started podcasting like 11 years ago. And one of my first callers who called in, there wasn't even a word for it at that point, you know, it was this guy, John. And I found out over time, he was one of, he was full of shit, right? But his story, he was actually great at being full of shit. I mean, I believed him for a very long time. So did all my callers.

Starting point is 00:10:45 I appreciate a good liar. But he was talking about sharing his wife. And I got to tell you, his episodes probably made my show what it was from the get-go. You know what I mean? That's where I got all my issues. And that's when I started to realize, like, this is a thing. Eventually, over time, it got a name and it got a thing. And, you know, now I get so many guys emailing me.

Starting point is 00:11:03 And now it's starting to be even like, you know, there's cuck queens and girls have compersion and, like sharing their partners too. And, you know, and that's becoming more common. and I'm getting more people talking about that, but like the whole hotwifing sharing their wife with other guys, was very surprising to me that this was like a thing. And not only is it a thing, it's like a big thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. I get emails from these people all the time.

Starting point is 00:11:28 And I think that's interesting because there is definitely compersion there, but it can also be jealousy used as a kink, which I would call erotic or eroticized jealousy, which I don't think it would be the same as compersion, but it's very adjacent. Right. So it's not correct to say that compersion is, well, maybe it is, maybe because what have you just said, would it be correct to say that compersion is the opposite of jealousy? Well, not technically correct. I think that's a helpful shorthand, but that would imply that jealousy and compersion are mutually exclusive and they are not. I know. It's really common to feel jealousy and compression at the same time. Oh my God. I hear that all the time. There's a little bit of angst and a little bit of jealousy, but then a lot of, you know, compersion too. They can be mixed. But it's like if there was a Venn diagram, it wouldn't be like all of that jealousy and enjoying it, like you said, in an erotic way, isn't always mixed. It doesn't always include compersion, but sometimes it does, right? Right. Right. It's kind of a blurry line there. I did a little research on that, actually earlier in the year. And I met people who,

Starting point is 00:12:40 who really love to get off on jealousy. And that's their kink. That's their thing. And that would include cuck holding or cuck queuing. But there's also other variations of that. And I think that for some people, it really does have a compersion-connected element. And that is when they really get off on their partner's pleasure. And they've experienced this kind of vicarious eroticism.

Starting point is 00:13:10 I feel like when they do share their wife with other people, a lot of the time, sometimes it is that jealousy kink for sure. And a lot of times those people do have like, you know, a history of being cheated on, you know, in the past. Do you think that that's where the jealous kink comes from? Like when you did your study in the beginning of the year, did you find that that went back to people who maybe were cheated on? And they've sort of rewriting that story by being turned on by it instead of tortured? You know, I didn't go too deep in the story of people, so I couldn't pronounce myself on that, but I did have some people say that it had to do with witnessing their parents being in infidelity circumstances and kind of rewriting that story and re-experiencing it from a place of agency

Starting point is 00:13:57 and being in control rather than not being in control. Oftentimes people will say like a kink is eroticized shame or eroticized. pain and that can fit. Yeah, yeah, like places in us that might have felt unprocessed and painful. And then a kink is something that you choose yourself and you reclaim control and power over. So it can have that kind of catharsis element. Yeah, no, of course. It's the reason why some people are into BDS. I mean, some people think it's like negative to do that. But I think it's way better than being tortured by the jealousy, right, to turn it? I remember hearing, you know, when I first heard for somebody that was able to turn their

Starting point is 00:14:40 jealousy and take that energy, because that's what it is, the feeling, the energy, and turn it into a turn on. I'm like, that's a lot better than being tortured by it because that, you know, jealousy feels terrible. Yes, yes. I actually gave a talk and it was called the alchemy of jealousy. Yeah. And I think it is that process of alchemizing pain into something that can be hot and arousing

Starting point is 00:15:04 and it can really help unleash some energy that is otherwise repressed. Yeah, no, totally. I was like, I'm never going to feel jealous again. I'm just going to turn it into a fucking turn on. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've had plenty of guys cheat on me. And I do believe I'm a cuck queen and I've put that together.

Starting point is 00:15:22 Through talking to people, what have you learned about yourself, like, in this world? Like, you know, do you have, feel compersion yourself? And I would want to also ask, do men and women experience a difference? differently? You know, I haven't found any major gender differences. So, you know, I haven't done a big enough study to have a conclusive result, but I also have not seen in the literature, anything that would indicate that men and women experience it differently. So, yeah, there's no conclusion on that yet. But for me, I do tend to experience a lot of conversion, especially when my partners pick someone that I like. That is one of the ways that people typically experience Compersion is having

Starting point is 00:16:11 a liking or respect or trust towards a metamore. A metamore is your partner's other partner. Right. And when that happens for me, when I perceive my partner to be quote unquote picking well or, you know, like wanting to date someone that I respect and I think is a good influence on them and a good contribution to our relational ecosystem, then I feel a lot of compersion and excitement, and gratitude. Gratitude is a part of compersion. And I've also recently actually experienced erotic compersion,

Starting point is 00:16:48 which was witnessing a partner, engaging sexually with someone else, and feeling that vicarious eroticism, it was probably as intense as if I was having the erotic experience. myself, but I didn't need to do anything. I just needed to plug in and experience the turn on of it. And that was really wonderful.

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Starting point is 00:17:31 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $26 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields, like software development and information technology. Learn more at About Amazon. That's kind of interesting that you did this book, you researched it, you were heavily like

Starting point is 00:18:15 into it and didn't realize until just recently that you actually could feel erotic impression yourself? Well, yeah. That's interesting, right? We don't all have all the experiences all the time, you know, some of these experiences I did research them before I actually had them. No, I mean, that's what I said. For me, sometimes I figured out that I'm into something just by learning about it on my show.

Starting point is 00:18:40 I was wondering if, like, you know, sort of being immersed in it, you know, sort of awakened it in you or you didn't even realize it until it was like right in front of you. Yeah, I just, I just hadn't had the opportunity, to be honest. Right. I knew it was in me, but I didn't have the opportunity to experience it in real life, in actuality, until recently. Yeah, that's what I was getting at. So when you were doing the research and writing the book, you did think, because I would assume you're going to put yourself in the position, right? You're doing all this research and putting everything together.

Starting point is 00:19:11 You would maybe be thinking of yourself. Did you think, oh, I think I may be wired like this and I could feel this way as well? Yeah, I knew I was, you know, quote unquote wired like this. And, I mean, to be honest, I don't think anyone is just like rigidly wired one way or the other. I think we all have a lot of potential in us. So I knew I had the potential. and I was always really, really activated by doing the interviews that went into the book. You know, when I interviewed people who were, you know, like fully, Polly and fully experiencing those things,

Starting point is 00:19:48 I was always like, wow, like I had compersion for them, actually. Yeah. I could feel like so happy for them and something activating in me as in like, wow, like I want to be in those shoes. that that resonates. That feels like home to me. It doesn't feel like a foreign experience. So you were curious. You knew you were. You were open and curious. You had to have been to even gone down this road to write a book and research something that you had never even experienced, right? I would think. Right. Right. I had had tastes of it, but not as much experience as many of the people that I had interviewed. And I think there's a gift in that too because it made me a little bit more

Starting point is 00:20:29 of a neutral researcher in a way because I was not already immersed in that world. Yeah, for sure. You were learning as you went, right, talking to these people. Is that how you did your research? You talked to couples or guys, like, how did you get the research and the data that you put in, that is in the book? Yeah, I interviewed a group of people, just individual interviews about an hour long, like, what do you do? Yeah, yeah. And I asked them questions around what is compersion for you? How do you experience it? Is it an emotion, a sensation, a thought? Like, what is compersion in your life? And I asked them questions around what promotes compersion for you and what hinders it. So what is your, you know, compersion roadmap, so to speak? And it was really,

Starting point is 00:21:20 really fascinating. And people, you know, were from all kinds of backgrounds, ages, people were between 25 and 85. Oh, interesting. Some people had been non-monogamous for decades. Some people had just started. So it was a really good diversity of participants.

Starting point is 00:21:35 How many participants? I had about 25. Okay, and let me ask, because, you know, when I started my show, I needed people to call in and I went on Craigslist by accident because it was only free place.

Starting point is 00:21:47 That's how my show became my show by accident, really. And I went into the personals, and that's where I got, like, just a treasure trove of guys emailing me with all these crazy stories. That's how my show became my show. But, you know, where did you find these people? Because it's so specific, right? Like, where did you put like this ad like, hey, you know, author looking, you know, to research this topic? Where do you find these participants?

Starting point is 00:22:11 On listservs. So I'm on these like email group, like listservs. Basically email groups for polyamory and non-monogamy researchers. Yeah. I also had my university email list. At the time I was doing my PhD dissertation on this, which is what became the basis for the book. Oh, okay. And it was quite easy to recruit people because as soon as I put the call for participants out, I think I might have put it on social media as well. Yeah. I was just flooded with respondents who wanted to be interviewed. Like I got maybe like 80 responses and I just needed 25 people. So I had to turn people away and I have plenty of other people in my database if I ever want to do more research who are really eager to speak about this. Right. Let me ask you this.

Starting point is 00:23:07 When you talk to somebody like Adam who was, you know, I forget what that word was that pud like a polyunder duress, right? Somebody that was actually like maybe not into compersion before but maybe forced into trying to be that way. Like, you know, is that, something that a guy can develop over time, do you think? It can train himself to feel compersion, or is it just something that somebody has in them or doesn't? Or like, did you find that some people maybe like it's just in their nature to be that way or not or like the opposite, not in their nature to be able to be that way? I definitely think it can be learned and acquired and developed and cultivated. And the first thing that I would advise people to do if they are poly under duress

Starting point is 00:23:55 is to try to get to neutral. Don't pressure yourself to feel compression right away because that is oftentimes just a bridge too far and it can add extra pressure that is not helpful. So what would it take to first be okay with non-monogamy? And that means, you know, you have to be in the space of consent with yourself. You have to feel that you are making this choice from a grounded, rational and agentic position, you know, like being in consent with yourself. And also, regulate your own nervous system, create as much abundance and stability that you can in your own life, in your own self, in your own relationship with yourself, because non-monogamy sometimes uncovers stuff in our own self-relationship that we haven't looked at yet.

Starting point is 00:24:48 Yeah. That's where, you know, like having a full life, full of love and support, and for some people, therapy and coaching can be super helpful. And it also will require maybe further relationship skills in couples who are opening up and experiencing a lot of big emotions. Like, they might need to have better conversations. They might have to, go to couples therapy or counseling, they might need to spend more time together, really cultivating quality time to make sure that their relationship is not operating at a deficit. Right. And there's also the role of community.

Starting point is 00:25:32 In non-monogamous communities, there is a lot of support that can come from just witnessing other people in this paradigm of relating. and it can feel that breaking the isolation that many people feel when they become non-monogamous, that really promotes feeling okay, if not modeling, compersion. Because when we see an experience or an emotion modeled in front of us, we're more likely to experience it. Like, human beings are imitators. And I think part of why many people don't experience compers is they've never seen it.

Starting point is 00:26:09 They've never seen it modeled in front of them. And so you say like sometimes people in the lifestyle because they're in group situations, that's where it might be modeled for, you know, and other people in vanilla relationships might not see it. Exactly. I had one participant in my book, you know, say that he could never imagine feeling compersion, but then he went to some group events with his wife and he saw that,

Starting point is 00:26:34 oh, like other people are making out with somebody else's partner and, you know, like no one seems to think it's a big deal or outrageous. Like when I said that it could be okay for other people, then I let it be okay with me and my wife. Yeah, it's amazing. I always say like when it comes to my show and I'm going to ask you this like what did you take out of it with your book. I know that, you know, I've talked to 1,500 people and I always say like I'm not here saying that everybody should be like my show isn't here to say that everybody should be non-monogamous or do all these things that everyone does on my show. But all my show is here to say, though, is that unlike what most people think, just because you open up your relationship, it doesn't mean it's June for failure.

Starting point is 00:27:15 Like, plenty of people have been on my show that I've been on my show are non-monogamous for, like you said, decades, you know, and they're completely happy. And I think a lot of times that, you know, the majority of people out there would never believe that that can be the case, you know, and that's what my show is here to say. What did you find from talking to these people in your book was like the overall take away of like, you know, the positives that they experience through, you know, whether it's being Polly and sharing their couple, you know, through compersion. Well, there's no one-size-fits-all. Everyone has a different path either non-monogamy journey.

Starting point is 00:27:54 So they have to just really wonder, like, what do they need to get there? and one really cool thing is that the older people get, the better they seem to be at it, to be at non-monogamy. And I interviewed Kathy Labriola, who is an expert on polyamory and aging. And you might want to have her on her show. She's wonderful. And she's done a lot of research about how compersion seems to increase over time for people who are non-monogamous.

Starting point is 00:28:24 And that is because they seem to have a lot to gain from non-monogamy. and the more people have benefits in their lives that come from being non-monogamous, the more compersion they're likely to have. Right. And also, the longer they work on their insecurities and their jealousy and the longer they have to have that deep, secure relationship within themselves, then the more compression they are likely to develop. Right.

Starting point is 00:28:55 So it really is something that is... a lifelong process to develop that security within self, that security within relationships, and to build a non-monogamous life where people are benefiting from that structure. That just leads to more love, more support, more friendship, more sex, more of everything good. And hopefully people can find their own balance there. Okay, listen, nowadays everyone is optimizing. everything, okay? But when was the last time you tried to optimize what was going down in your bedroom? Now listen, just when you think you know everything when it comes to sex, most likely

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Starting point is 00:31:21 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, Peace contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. Yeah, you have something in your book called the gas pedal and brake pedal model, right? Is that like speed up or slow down when it comes to compersion? Could you explain that? Well, that's a metaphor that I use to talk about the things that will accelerate conversion for people. versus hinder compersion.

Starting point is 00:31:57 And that's an analogy I borrowed from the Kinsey Institute's study on sexual desire. Because for most of us, you know, like there's things that turn us on and things that turn us off, like a break and a pedal. So for compersion, the things that will enhance compersion that will accelerate it are being in a space of self-consent, like being in a state of, you know, buying into the non-monogamous ideology and values. It is having a secure relationship with self. It is having a secure relationship with others in the relational ecosystem. It is having positive regard for the metamores for your partner's other relationships. It is perceiving that there are benefits from your partner's other relationships.

Starting point is 00:32:46 and it is belonging to community. These are the six my main like accelerators that they found in my research really promote compersion. And then the breaks, the things that hinder compersion are not feeling on board with non-monogamy, like being a pud, being poly under duress, being, you know, in a state of lack of resourcefulness and lack of security within self, like people who might feel that their own self-relationship is operating at a deficit,

Starting point is 00:33:22 or they are under-resourced, you know, financially, physically, emotionally. Mm-hmm. There is the lack of security within a relationship. Like, if you feel like your relationship is on the rocks, it's going to be a lot harder to feel conversion when your partner is going out and sharing love or sex with someone else. Right.

Starting point is 00:33:44 There is mistrust or dislike towards the metamore. So if my partner is dating someone that I really don't trust and don't like and think maybe they're not going to respect our boundaries, that is going to block compersion. And there's also a feeling that my partner's other relationship is actually taking away from the relationship ecosystem or taking away from our lives rather than adding. That will definitely decrease. and block compersion.

Starting point is 00:34:16 And finally, the lack of community, like people who feel really isolated in their non-monogamous journey and might still be in a space of doubting and having like internalized monotivitivity and not having any support or not having any models to compensate or to balance that out.

Starting point is 00:34:36 Right. So these are the breaks. Those are the breaks. Would you say because, you know, that anyone in a non-monogamous release, who is sharing their partner is, you know, feeling compersion? Or would you say that that's a very specific thing that isn't always, like even in non-monogamy isn't always there? I wouldn't say that everyone is feeling compersion. Right. The emotion of compression,

Starting point is 00:35:01 but I think that many people might be experiencing compersion without knowing that it is compersion. Yeah, that's interesting. For example, are approaching their partner with a compulsive attitude. if they are treating their partners with compulsive behavior. Like, you know, maybe my partner is going out on a date and I'm not feeling happy about this emotionally, but I'll still say like, oh, I want you to have a good time. You look great. You know, like wear this jacket that makes you look good. I'm acting in a compulsive way, even if I'm not feeling the emotion of compersion.

Starting point is 00:35:37 And I think that is a really underrated or, you know, know, really important form of compersion. Yeah, that's interesting because I wouldn't even think that there was like that difference, but that is still a part of it, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And the gift in that is that having a compulsive attitude or behavior is a lot easier to control or invoke or cultivate than having a compulsive emotion, which, you know, can be seen as a lucky bonus when the context lends itself to it. Yeah, yeah. Now, can you, what is the difference though between somebody feeling like between, like I want to get more into like the whole thing where you said that there is a difference between like the like eroticizing it and it just being erotic maybe jealousy or something erotic as opposed versus like true compersion, true joy for the other person? Is it strictly like that it's the feeling has nothing to do with yourself of what you're getting out of it and just your other person? Right. I see that as a spectrum of, you know, like how.

Starting point is 00:36:42 self-centered is this experience versus how other-centered. You know, like I've seen people who literally pressure their spouse to go have sex with someone else, even if their spouse is not into it. But they're like, hey, I get off on this. Please go and have sex with someone else and send me photos and, you know, like not fully caring about their spouse's experience, but really doing it for their own kink, their own gratification. versus, oh my gosh, like I'm so turned on to hear that you want to go out with this person. And, you know, you definitely are welcomed to tell me about it to the extent that you want because that turns me on.

Starting point is 00:37:26 But I really respect your freedom and your agency in this. Right. But can't there be both like the guy is or the girl is like very into the fact that their partner is going to be pleasured? and but they are also getting pleasure out of that. Isn't that full compersion or no? Yeah, well, I mean, that's the ideal scenario. Right. Okay.

Starting point is 00:37:49 When it's a collaborative, erotic experience and everyone is getting off on it. Yeah. That's really fun. Yeah, that's what I hear a lot in the guys who call into my show. When you, when those 25 participants were there mostly, were there, was it a mix of men, couples, women? Who made up that group of people that you spoke to? I know that it was all different ranges.

Starting point is 00:38:11 What were the other demographics? Yeah, yeah. There was about half and half men and women. Okay. A big range of ages from 25 to 85. Yeah. Some of them were couples. And there was a fair range of ethnicities and races.

Starting point is 00:38:32 And there was a bigger proportion of people who were bisexual or pansexual versus, you know, a smaller proportion of people who were straight. Oh, that's kind of interesting. And that is quite representative, you know, like the non-monogamous community, you know, like maybe if we're not talking about swingers, if we're talking about more poly and relationship anarchists and solo polyamorous people, typically people tend to be not straight. All right.

Starting point is 00:39:02 Well, even in the swinger community, they typically not straight. They just can't talk about it because there's still this big stigma against it's ridiculous. Do you know what I mean? But do you think that that's kind of interesting, though, do you think that there's anything in there? Like, do you think that there's any kind of correlation to someone being sort of not straight and feeling, seeing,

Starting point is 00:39:23 and getting pleasure out of seeing their partner with somebody of their same sex? Yes, absolutely. And people did comment on that where they, I had one participant say, like, I don't know how straight people do it. Yeah, being bisexual or pansexual can allow that expansive eroticism and wanting to dive in with them or having more empathy, erotic and otherwise, for, you know, like different configurations of genders and sexuality.

Starting point is 00:39:55 And a lot of people actually become non-monogamous because they are bisexual and they don't want to just have a relationship with one gender. Right. And that's what makes them, you know, like intrigued about non-monogamy to begin with. Oh, interesting. So then they start, and then the sharing is like the living vicariously? It can be that or just, you know, like wanting to be non-monogamous because you don't want to limit yourself to one partner. Right. Yeah, it's interesting that the whole, I mean, I promote guy on guy action a lot on my show only because I feel like I don't understand why they're still. such a stigma for specifically that in my time girl on girl action the stigma went away you know when in my lifetime it was even there when I was younger but I remember exactly when it went away and every girl was like oh I got a girl crush and you know and it was like cool and you know but for guys it still hasn't

Starting point is 00:40:53 happened for some reason and I feel like even in the swinger community and in the non the non monogamous people I talk to a lot of times these couples have to keep the the guy being bisexual the DL, unfortunately, you know? I think the younger generation is different, but I feel like that's definitely like a thing. What about like the guy? Like, do you learn, I mean, I don't know if you talk to men, you know, that haven't sort of tried it and want to maybe see if they could share, you know, but they don't really know if they could handle it.

Starting point is 00:41:26 Like, do you have advice for that guy? Like hetero guys? Yeah, heter. any kind of man. I mean, the people that listen to my show are guys that are, you know, typically definitely believe that they have this fantasy, right? They're listening to these stories of these guys that are sort of have compersion or sharing their wives and, you know, and everyone's happy. A lot of people are listening to those stories and wishing that was them, you know, but a lot of times I think those same guys, you know, and because I hear it all the time

Starting point is 00:41:58 on my show when I'm talking to the people, like a lot of times those same guys that actually pulled the trigger right before they don't know how they're going to feel you know will they be jealous will it be as good as they think it is well you know there's fear there they don't it's the fear of the unknown yeah well um a lot of people start out with going out either to sex clubs or on dates as a couple yeah like if those guys are coupled and they're you know wife or or girlfriends you know like are into it as well like just maybe getting on an app like Field, F-E-E-E-L-D, which is really specializing in non-conventional relationships. There's a lot of people who are looking for group dates, and that can be really a more safe

Starting point is 00:42:47 way to get started. But also, I don't think that's everyone's cup of tea, so I wouldn't recommend that as like a universal. And I would try to tap into the non-monogamous community, and talk to people and get some exposure about what's available and what is happening out there. And there are great online communities, even for people who might not live in a metropolitan city where there's like a poly meetup at every corner. I have friends who have a beautiful online community called normalizing non-monogamy, and people post on bulletin boards about their experiences and can share their struggle and their wins. There's also a lot of community on Facebook, different groups where people share

Starting point is 00:43:38 about this. So I would recommend dipping, you know, your toes into those kinds of communities and hopefully going to an in-person event, like a like a non-monogamy meetup, cocktail hour, or a sex club. Right. Yeah, I mean, I should have those people on your friends. I had started that online community. I think that would be like super interesting. I feel like my audience. would love to hear about that community. I could talk to them. I've ever heard of it, but I think, you know, my audience would love to hear about that. You know, I'm assuming some of the participants that you spoke to maybe had those fears before. Like, did you hear stories of how they overcame them? Or like, was that not the case? I don't know. You have to tell me. Oh, yeah. Oh,

Starting point is 00:44:23 yeah. I had people who actually came into non-monogamy from really difficult positions. Like, I had one couple that I interviewed. They came to it from an affair, the woman who in that couple, like she didn't think she could ask for non-monogamy. They had been monogamous for 30 years and then she had an affair and he discovered it. And at first he was heartbroken and devastated, but then he realized that she had allowed herself to do something that he would have liked to do but also never thought was possible. And they started talking about, you know, their desires to explore outside the marriage. and they decided to go into an ethically non-monogamous route.

Starting point is 00:45:05 And they developed compersion for each other once they could actually be in the open and have great conversations and both date other people. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly, 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gammonogyn, or someone close to you.

Starting point is 00:45:32 Peace contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. So it's not always, you know, like the... A straight line. Exactly. Yeah. I've heard those stories. And did you talk to Natalie Davis yet from saying yes?

Starting point is 00:45:55 I mean, her story is like almost exactly that, you know? No, I haven't. Oh, she's great. She wrote a Polly book called Saying Yes. I had her on my show more than once, but like her husband cheated on her like once and they decided to open up, cheated again. And now they're polyamorous and couldn't be happier. But it was like this really crazy journey. But where they wound up is Polly and very happy for many, many years, by the way. And it's interesting because she got a lot of hate, she said, the fact that she stayed with her partner through infidelity. But I have heard that exact story that you talk about. on my show before that it started with infidelity. And then after they got through that, uh, they're now non-monogamous and happy. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:46:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. It happens. Are there like certain qualities in like, you know, a partner, you know, either the man or the women,

Starting point is 00:46:52 it doesn't matter. You know, that would, that makes that person more likely to be compulsive in a better way. I don't know. I don't know what the correct word is, as well as qualities that would make it impossible that person would be able to experience compersion? Yes. Some of the qualities that make it more likely to experience conversion are, one, the willingness to defy convention. So in order to be non-monogamous, you have to have a little bit of a rebellious streak.

Starting point is 00:47:26 or the willingness to play outside the lines, you know, the lines of society and convention. So people who have that and maybe have crossed other lines. And I think that's partly why people who are queer and not straight sometimes have an easier time with non-monogamy and compersion because they've already come out as not straight, as not the majority. And so crossing that other line, another arbitrary line that society offers to us, as like, yes, you should be monogamous. It can feel more natural because you're already outside of the conventions. Right. And, you know, with that also comes critical thinking, like thinking critically about norms and what actually serves me versus what doesn't serve me. So being an

Starting point is 00:48:20 independent thinker is really, really helpful. Also, being community oriented. And And that's where also I could see people from different cultures who are more communal sometimes would have a better time with compersion and non-monogamy because they already were not individualistic in the same way that some other people are. So already having like a sense of communal living or wanting the best for other people and being really other-oriented really lends itself well for a non-monogamous living. and compersion. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:58 I would say these are two of the biggest qualities that promote compersion. And then things that would make it almost impossible to experience compersion would be not being on board at all with non-monogamy and seeing love in a more kind of traditional sense where if my partner pays attention to someone else,

Starting point is 00:49:22 that means they don't love me. if you really believe this, then good luck having compersion. You're just not. No way, right. And so in your Polly relationship that you have right now, how many people are involved? So it is an evolving story. As is anyone's life, right? I love it.

Starting point is 00:49:46 Yeah. Exactly. But I'm married to a lovely person and he is currently dating one out of woman who is wonderful, who I really enjoy spending time with. And I am dating one other person pretty regularly and seriously, and then I'm going on dates with other people as well. So each, you know, me and my husband have like one other more, you know, serious slash regular partner. and then I'm also exploring some less involved relationships. Right.

Starting point is 00:50:24 Now, let me ask you this. Did you guys go into your marriage or when you were dating, like knowing that you would one day be Polly where you opened from the get-go? Or did that happen over time after you're with each other for a while? Do you mind me getting personal? Well, I might, you know, like you say, like, I don't want to get too, too specific. No, this is my last question. Okay, okay. Yeah, but no, it took a while actually. Like, I always knew I was polyhearted. You know, I always knew I didn't want lifelong monogamy and, you know, we knew that from the beginning. He knew that from the beginning. But it took a while to actually enter that paradigm. And I would say that coaching with our relationship coach has been a game changer because it is something where if, you know, like if we hadn't had that,

Starting point is 00:51:17 kind of external support, it would have been really difficult to get to a place of stability in it. And, you know, like we had to look at the things in our relationship that were operating at a deficit, the things that were easy to get our feelings hurt around and just really do some deep relational work to feel that, okay, the love between us is secure and we're not, you know, like one foot out the door. We're not looking to replace each other with other partners, but we're looking to supplement and to complement what we already have. And so I think that that process cannot be rushed. It has to be really, really done caringly and carefully. And, you know, like, we have to take time to do that. And we also have to pick people well. I think that, you know,

Starting point is 00:52:14 Like the fact that my husband's new sweetie is really someone that I respect and admire and trust, you know, like makes it so much easier than if he had decided to date someone that I don't respect or trust, right? Like the quality of people in the ecosystem makes it viable. Yeah. What was one of the most surprising things you just, we're back to your book, like that you discovered writing it and researching it? Like did you go in with one eye? idea of what compersion was and come out with a different one or was it something else that surprised you or maybe I don't know what was it was there anything or more than one thing that surprised you

Starting point is 00:52:53 well the main thing that surprised me was that compersion is not just an emotion you know I came in with this idea that compersion is this emotion that people have and I came out knowing that oh it's an emotion but it can also be an attitude and a behavior which is different from the original definition and I think that's really important and kind of game changing. Yeah, for me too. I didn't, know that. I mean, I'm hearing this for the first time, you know, and I think it'll probably surprise other people too. Right, right. And I think that gives us a lot more freedom, you know, like to recognize when compersion is there, but it's just not this emotional embodied thing. Right. And the other thing that surprised me is that, you know, people are not just compulsive or just

Starting point is 00:53:42 jealous. You know, like it's a spectrum and it's really contextual. It really, really depends on the context. Like I've met people who have been non-monogamous for 20 years and never really had big jealousy, but then all of a sudden their partner is dating this one person that activates their jealousy and all hell breaks loose. And, you know, it's a matter of context. So if in your particular relational context, you're not experiencing conversion or you're struggling with a lot of jealousy, it doesn't just mean that you're a jealous person. It means that the context itself is maybe lending itself to excavating your jealousy. And maybe if you were in a different relational context, still non-monogamous, maybe it would bring up more compersion. So I would really emphasize

Starting point is 00:54:31 that more than anything else. Oh yeah. I mean, some of the most professional non-monogamous couples I've talk to, you know, every now and then something might come up that makes them feel not right. And sometimes I'm like, sometimes it could just be the way the wind blew that day or, you know what I mean? Or like it's just within a specific context. And I think what's most important is like what you were saying in your own relationship. Like you need to be able to know that when that time does come, because it probably will at some point, that you'd be able to make it through something like that. You know, you have a solid enough foundation. You're communicating. enough to know that if that comes up, you can talk through it and be okay with it.

Starting point is 00:55:13 And that, I think, is the difference between the couples that succeed and don't, you know, but it makes sense. So, you know, besides your book, you also have a YouTube channel. You want to give a shout out to your Instagram, your YouTube channel. I'll put, do you want to put me, do you have a website or do you want me to put a link to your book on Amazon? Sure, sure. All of the above is great.

Starting point is 00:55:33 My Instagram is at Dr. Marie Thuin. It's D-R-M-A-R-I-E-T-H-O-U-I-N. My YouTube channel is the same, Dr. Marie Thuwen. And my website is www.murie-W-W-R-Rie-T-Win.com. And I also have a compersion-specific website called What Is Compersion.com. And there you can find my book and really great guest blogs from people in the field who have interesting

Starting point is 00:56:03 perspectives on compersion as well as my own writings on compersion. Oh, I love that. I can't believe that was available when you went. Did you have to buy it from somebody or was it just like available that URL? That's a good one. I was very lucky. It was available. Comversion.com was not available, but what is Comversion? I like that better. I like that better in a weird way. You know what I mean? Because you know how many people are typing that in? Yes, exactly. Think about it. Yeah. I never spent a penny on SEO and I got a lot of traffic. Of course. That's the much better way to get people to your site to have that whole thing in your URL. You hit gold. I think that that's great. And I love that you have that set up too. So I will put links to everyone that's driving and just you're trying to

Starting point is 00:56:47 pay attention to what you just said. They don't have to worry about it. Like I will put the links in the description. But thanks so much for coming on my show. I've wanted you on for a really long time. So thanks. And you know, I know that my audience is going to learn a lot from you because I did for Sure. Awesome. Such an honor. Thank you so much, Kathy, for having me. And shout out to everyone out there who is on their non-monogamous journey. And if you need help also, I am a coach. So you can always do a free 30-minute introductory session with me. Oh, I love that. You have that. And is that right if anyone wants to do that, right? Is that right on your website too, the place where they sign up for the free call? Yes. They can go to my website or go to my Instagram. And it's going to be

Starting point is 00:57:29 front and center, just a free introductory 30. minute session. Yeah, I love it. All right. Thanks, Dr. Marie. Thanks so much for calling in. Have a good day. Thank you so much, Kathy. Have a beautiful day, too. You too. Bye. Bye. Okay, listen, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're listening to my show on Apple or Spotify, make sure to give me a five-star rating. It takes like one second. You could just press it on your phone and stuff like that really helps the show. And make sure to also follow my show on either Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to my show. I also want to tell you that my book, Shrically Anonymous Confessions, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers, is now available in the audiobook version.

Starting point is 00:58:13 It's basically 17 stories taken from my show, and they're all told in the third person. I wouldn't call it a total erotica book. Think more like penthouse letters. Okay, each chapter is short. It's one story taken from my show, like I said, but told in the third person by a narrator. I picked the narrator. I made sure to get somebody high. Okay, guys, I've been emailing me that have listened to my book and they're like, oh my God, I'm getting Woody's listening to it. So you're going to dig it. The book is also available in ebook version as well as a paperback format, but I personally think the audiobook version is the best. If you buy my book in any format, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord is free, but it's private and it's a great community where you get to talk and interact

Starting point is 00:59:00 with other listeners of my show. all you got to do is send me a screenshot of your purchase to strictly anonymous podcast at gmail.com. That's strictly anonymous podcast at gmail.com and I will send you the link to Discord. Anyway, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the strictly anonymous podcast. Strictly anonymous podcast.

Strictly Anonymous Confessions - 1611 - Why Some Men Love Sharing Their Wives — The Psychology of Compersion w/ Marie Thouin

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