Strictly Anonymous Confessions - 922 - Non-Monogamy, Polyamory and More with Molly Roden Winter

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

NY Times best-selling author of More: A Memoir of Open Marriage, Molly Roden Winter called in to discuss non-monogamy, polyamory, and more. Tune in to hear all the details including how and why it was super important for her to be open about who she was when writing her book, how she found out her parents also had an open marriage, how and when she and her husband decided to open up their marriage, the first guy she met and hooked up with and how she felt about it at first, the first woman her husband hooked up with and how and why it was hard for her to deal with it at first, how her husband liked hearing about her dates and how and why she didn’t like hearing about his, how and why she solely sought out married guys to date and why she never told them she was married, her husbands experience dating on Ashley Madison compared to her experience dating on there, why they eventually went to therapy and the tools they learned that helped them, how their open marriage shed light on pre-existing issues in their marriage, why she rejected the poly label at first plus a whole lot morel. To buy her book and learn More about her, click here: https://amzn.to/4gr3FSV **To see anonymous pics of my female guests + hear anonymous confessions + get all the episodes early and AD FREE, join my Patreon! It's only $7 a month and you can cancel at any time. You can sign up here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/StrictlyAnonymousPodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and when you join, I'll throw in a complimentary link to my private Discord! MY BOOK IS NOW OUT FOR PRE-ORDER!!!! Strictly Anonymous Confessions: Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. A bunch of short, super sexy, TRUE stories. GET YOUR COPY NOW: https://amzn.to/4i7hBCd To Join SDC and get a FREE Trial! click here: https://www.sdc.com/?ref=37712 or go to SDC.com and use my code 37712 Want to be on the show? Email me at [e-mail] or go to http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com and click on "Be on the Show" Have something quick you want to confesss while remaining anonymous? Call the CONFESSIONS hotline at 347-420-3579. You can call 24/7. All voices are changed. Sponsors: https://bluechew.com Get your first month FREE! https://butterwellness.com/ Try the Butter Wellness perineum massager and use code STRICTLY for 20% off your entire order Follow me! Instagram https://www.instagram.com/strictanonymous/ Twitter https://twitter.com/strictanonymous?lang=en Website http://www.strictlyanonymouspodcast.com/ Everything else https://linktr.ee/Strictlyanonymouspodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And the good news is if you use my code, 37712, you get a free trial. Now, you don't even have to use that code. You could just click on the link in the description. So either use the code 37712 at SDC.com or just click on the link and you're going to get a free trial for SDC. Okay, today I have on Molly Roden Winter and you are going to love her. She wrote the bestseller book called Moore a Memoir of Open Marriage. It was literally on the New York Times bestseller list, which is amazing considering this was a book about a couple who opened up their marriage. It was hugely successful. She's out and proud. Molly

wrote in Winter is her real name. She talks about why that was important for her to do it. She talks about her whole story explains it. She talks about how and why they open their relationships, specifically how it's set up, which is very different than a lot of my other stories, but super interesting. She talks about all their roadblocks, and there's been many, and there still is sometimes. She's very realistic. She talks about the good, the bad, and the ugly. But you're going to learn a lot just from listening to her talk on this episode, from her story and from all the things that they did to navigate their open relationship together, her and her husband. They're still in an open relationship. She does talk about how they have made it last for so long. Like I said,

you're going to love her story. You're going to want to read her book to learn more. Her book is called Moore, a memoir of Open Marriage. I'm going to put the list. I'm going to put the list. to it in the description, but I'm going to get right to it and be right back on with Molly. Hi, Molly, Rhode in Winter. Welcome to the strictly anonymous podcast. How are you today? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. No, thanks for coming on. I love that you are an author who put out a book called Moore, a memoir of open marriage. This is your real life story. You told your story in a book about opening up your marriage. And I love people like you that are out and proud about their open relationships because you're helping all the people that come on my show anonymously.

Thank you. By putting that stuff out there and getting it like mainstream. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. People are finally fucking talking about this. I mean, this is basically like your first 10 years of opening up your marriage. So obviously you were doing this before it was now, right? Where things are more open, right?

So we're going to get that story. But it's so amazing that you were able to put a book out like this. this and have it like really like well received by a major publisher and out there and mainstream. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I felt really strongly about writing my story with my name. My, my mother tried to convince me to use a pen name. Yeah.

And spoiler alert, my parents also had an open marriage and I out them in my book too. Yeah. I already have a million questions, but keep going. So your mom wanted you to change the name. but it was really important to me. I was like, and because my parents had an open marriage, too, even though they did not tell me and they did not tell anyone, they, I found out from my aunt when she got drunk when I was 28. And my, and my mom literally had to tell my sister before my book came out. Like, they were not open about it.

But it was important to me to be, to stand behind my story because I'm like, if I can't talk about it, who can? I, my kids are now 19 and 22. I'm not going to get ostracized on the playground by the other moms. It's like everything in my life is safe. And I'm like, if I can't do this and step forward and be open about it, then nobody else can. And so it was important to me to do that. And I'm throwing zero shade on people who can't talk about it unless it's anonymously because I'm like, I see you and I'm hoping this helps. Yeah, and you understand it.

Listen, I'm a mom and I have a young child still. And my, no parent knows what I do for a living that I have a sex podcast because I don't want my son to have to deal with those ramifications. Right. I think any parent can understand. It doesn't mean that I'm not an open person or, but it's, I have to think of somebody else. And the fact is people are really fucking judgy, especially at the playground. And the last thing you want is your son's, your kid's life to get messed up because of what you're doing. So I respect that you did it.

But what a freeing place to come to, right? a place in your life where you felt like you had nothing to lose and you were going to put it out there. That's amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And the book, I started writing the book when my youngest was still 14. But it takes so long in the publishing industry, especially traditional publishing, that it didn't come out until a few days after he turned 19.

But I was actually kind of grateful for that, that I didn't have to burden him with it until he was already off at college. And so it didn't ever become a burden. and my story, I hope. And I've changed the names of my kids in my book. But just I changed everybody's names except me, my husband, Stuart, and my parents. Oh, interesting. I like that. Yeah.

Yeah, everybody else got a fake name. Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so let's get a little bit of your story. I'm going to put a link, by the way, to your book. It's called More a Memoir of Open Marriage. We'll talk, you know, you'll give a shout out to it again at the end. I'll put a link in the description. So anyone listening that wants to read the whole story will be able to just click the

link, but why don't we go back to 10 years ago? You're like, how long at that point were you with your husband before you guys decided to open up your relationship? Sure. Yeah. So we actually opened up in 2008. The book takes place between 2008 and 2018. So it's not been 16 years since it happened. And we got married back in 99. So we've been married 25 years now. So we were already nine years into our marriage. My kids were three and six. And most parents can understand I was losing my goddamn mind. I decided to stay home. I was just staying home for like a year. I had, I was a teacher. Once my second was born, he needed some therapies and interventions and things. He's fine now. But I was saying home with them and I was losing my mind. And so one night my husband came home

from work late. And I like stormed out in Brooklyn. I was like, I got to get some air. And I got, I ran into a former colleague on the street and she dragged me to a bar. And she dragged me to a and I met a guy. And that's kind of how it started. I felt this intense desire for this man who was like seven years younger than me, wasn't seeing me as a mom, even though I was like no makeup wearing a hoodie feeling pretty bedraggled. But I ended up flirting with him. And when I got home, I talked to my husband about it. There's a little more to the story that you'll read when you read to more how it all started that way, but basically my husband and I had talked previously about this possibility. My husband had predicted that I would want to sleep with somebody else because I was pretty virginal when we got

married, not a virgin, but it had very few partners. And he was older and only five years older, but he had dated a lot more than I had. And he always thought, there is no way you're going to be okay with only having sex with me for the rest of your life. And I was like, that's not true. I'll be fine. And then all of a sudden, I was like, I think I might want to take you up on that. And so that's how it began. Yeah, that's so interesting. Literally, you just bumped into a guy. It was like chemistry, like something just clicked. Yeah. Yeah. It struck me by surprise maybe more than anybody. I was more surprised than my husband was. How about that? Yeah, no, I can imagine. And listen, it's, it's very easy to lose yourself, especially like the sexy part of

yourself when you're a mom. So when you said he didn't see me as a mom, like he saw that, even though you still felt like it, he didn't get that. And that's something that women don't get, right? Just because you have lost that sort of vision to yourself doesn't mean other people have, right? And that was like a gift to remind you that that part of you was still there. Yeah, just lost it. So, you know, that's great. So when you told you're a guy, he was down, I'm assuming, because you open up the reason. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah, we all know that news down at this point. But, you know, it was hard.

So the story I told, I needed to tell it in book form because there's so many parts to it. But the basics are once I started seeing this guy outside of our marriage, I was still, it still felt really dangerous to me. It still felt like I could be sacrificing my marriage because there were feelings getting involved. trying to fight my feelings. I didn't want to fall in love with anybody. I didn't want to be polyamorous. Let's put it that way. I thought I was just going to have a sexual adventure. But over time, and it wasn't necessarily with this guy, things ended with this guy. And that's a pretty good story that is told in more. But I realized I did want more in my life, but I realized also that like sex without feelings wasn't really going to do it for me. I had had this rule.

Cool. Yeah. I was surprised by that too because the first couple of years I had this rule with my husband, like no falling in love. Because when I was doing it, I started, but then I was like, well, you can do it too. But it was hard for me to let him. He's, you know, that term compersion of getting turned on by your partner being turned on. My husband has that big time. And I do not. So it was way harder for me to deal with his outside relationship. relationships and I was really felt really threatened and jealous and had a lot of difficulty and really didn't want anything to develop that was emotional for either of us because I thought I needed to protect what we had. But what kept happening is I kept breaking the rules because we had lots of rules that were designed to keep that main rule in place, the no falling in love. So I had rules like no sleepovers, no dating anyone you work with, no, no dating anybody twice in the same week, trying to just make sure that not enough intimacy could be created. But that's all, of course,

realistic. I would say I probably, well, I at least showed, I realized I was having feelings for another person before I realized my husband was also having feelings for another person, but it made it easier for me, for me to realize, oh, I'm, I can love another person and it actually makes me love my husband more because a couple reasons. For one, he was giving me this gift and he was supporting me in this. And two, I was able to still keep choosing him. There were aspects of, him and my marriage and our connection that they're just not replaceable. They're not, it's apples and oranges in so many ways. And we maintained a good sex life all throughout. That doesn't always happen. But yeah, so I just felt like my marriage was deepening in my connection and my husband was getting

stronger. Not always, because as I talk about in the book, there are all sorts of times when you get really into another person, that new relationship energy and you're kind of like, wait, Stuart who? Lots of things like that. We had to ride out. But now I really do to find myself as Polly. I have two boyfriends and a husband and I love it. There are all sorts of times when you get really into another person, that new relationship energy and you're kind of like, wait, Stuart who? Lots of things like that. We had to ride out.

But now I really do define myself as Polly. And I have two boyfriends and a husband and I love it. Yeah. I mean, listen, I've talked to a lot of couples that open up. And I've only talked to a very few that have been. and able to get to the point where you are, where they're, like, successful, Polly. And it always comes. It's unusual.

Yeah. And I think it's very hard. And I think probably a lot of times what happens is once those initial problems and fears come up, which they're going to in the beginning, people quit, right? The couple that I talk to, what I notice, and it sounds like you and your husband did it too, is like when it first started happening and the insecurities came up, there was lots of conversations and it was something difficult, but eventually, instead of, because you didn't quit, right? You eventually were able to work it out. And then eventually when you're on the other side

of all that, it actually, then you could enjoy it and then see it what it is. But I think a lot of people don't get to that point. Yeah, I kind of liken it to doing an Iron Man. You know what I mean? First all, not everybody wants to do an Iron Man. And that's fair. That's fair. And you also, you have to do a lot of fucking training. It's it's a lot of work to get yourself to the place where you can feel that runners high and those endorphins. And I feel like we had to endure. We like we did our training and we got to that place. But once you're there, then it feels pretty great. And we're really, we're really good at arguing now too. We used to, I think, just have a lot more. I think it took us a while to get in touch with our own feelings about it. There's a lot of personal growth that has to happen

as you're delving into this kind of these kind of scary territory. We did have couples counseling for a year. I was in therapy for 10 years. And all of that really helped to kind of make sure that the things that needed to come to the light were coming to the light because it's easy to to bury some of your feelings or to blame the other person for things you're experiencing that may or may not actually have to do with them. So I feel like we had help. We got help. We sought help.

And we stayed committed to each other. But it was like, yeah, again, the book has to tell the story of 10 years. I always say, it's not the story of the first year because things were getting real ugly by year. I was in no position to reflect on anything. until I had been through this for quite some time. And then even then when the story ends, the story ends six years ago, and I'm in a different place now than I was even then.

It's a real evolution. Yeah, no, and you're still obviously in an open marriage. So we know if there's, you went through it all and you're still a happy ending. But nobody wants a story that, like they end with no solution. You know what I mean? No one wants to read that fucking story. I know.

It still does, it does kind of end in a place where, I won't give too much away about the ending, but it's, I've got another book. Let's put it that way. So I'm writing the second book now, which picks up where more left off. But that's kind of the next saga. There were more sagas to come for sure. And I might be living my third book. God knows. There's a lot going on still. Yeah. I mean, you've only been at it. How many years? Yeah, 16, married for 25. There's a lot to, lot to unpack here. Yeah, who knows what's next. But let's go back a little bit to the beginning of your story.

So you see that guy. And then, okay, your husband's down for it. He's got the compurgent thing. I had no idea that guys were into seeing their girls get banged out by other guys. Like, I'm not one of my guy friends that ever copped to it. I never knew until I started doing my show. And once I started doing my show, oh, my God. I couldn't believe.

And women, too. I have met now a couple more than one woman who's like, oh, yeah, I love hearing about my man with other women. Those are all cock queens. Oh, I didn't know the name. Yes. It doesn't apply to me, unfortunately. It seems like it would be nice if I could get myself there, but not in my wiring.

But anyway, continue. Yeah, so you're got, so, okay, so you meet that guy. You tell him, your husband's, like, down with it. Now, let's talk about that first experience. Does it wind up that you're just going to hook up with this guy and that's what it's going to be? Or do you guys decide, let's get into the lifestyle and start looking for people, you two. What happened after that first combo? There was no lifestyle. First of all, it was 2008. I didn't

know this lifestyle. I mean, I knew it existed, but it didn't feel like it applied to me. Right. I wasn't, like I said, I was, I was like, I'm not going to be polyamorous. And I'm like, I don't, we had done a couple things before we got married. Like, we went to a sex club a couple times. Oh, my husband's idea. We had a threesome with one of his exes. And I wasn't into it. I really didn't like kind of, I don't like anonymous sex. Yeah. I don't like seeing him with another person. So none of that was going to work for me. So I was like, and to be honest when you said, so you tell this guy that your husband's into it, no, I did not. I pretended like I was having an affair. I, I wouldn't even admit to the guy I was sleeping with that my husband knew because it

felt deviant. It felt weird. I wasn't comfortable with that. He did not love it when he found out that I had been lying to him. And that's a whole story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, there was something naughty about it for him maybe in that because I've heard of people doing that before. And unfortunately, cheating sex sometimes could be very highly charged because it's naughty, right? And a lot of times people do know that they're screwing somebody else's wife.

I could see why he was mad when he found out that you had lied to him. Yeah, it was more of my dishonesty, I think. think that bothered him. But he was also cheating on his girlfriend. And so I think he thought we were in the same boat. I mean, I know he thought we were in the same boat because that's what I led him to believe. And it took me a while. And then my next thing that I did was I went on Ashley Madison. I just really dug myself in deeper. I was like, I'm only going to sleep with men who are cheating on their wives because I was like, I don't want this to end up in a loving relationship. I don't want to be with somebody who's going to threaten my marriage.

I want to be with someone who's already got their part. And I, this was before you've got to understand too. This was before OKCupid or there weren't, there were no apps. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I wasn't going to go on J date to feel like when I was like not. So it wasn't until 2015 when I found OKCupid with like non monogamous and the drop down menu that like revolutionized things.

And so people ask me now like, oh, so. do you think you could have benefited from a non-monogamy coach? And I just crack up because I'm like the idea of a non-monogamy coach was so foreign to me. Yeah. And these years, it was so different. And it's not even that long ago. But I was like, it was part of my story, though, that I really even had to come to terms with being overtly non-monogamous and talking about it and telling my friends about it. I mean, that was a whole other iteration.

it was a long process of really coming out as being Polly. It didn't happen all at once. It did not. But no, there was no seeking out of a lifestyle at all. And if anything, I was kicking and screaming the whole time saying, this is not my lifestyle, this is not my lifestyle. And then finally coming to it very organically and being like, oh, I think this is who I am.

I think this is my identity. Yeah, interesting. Well, what about that, like the first time? I mean, you said you were kind of virginal in that. It wasn't like you were a virgin when you met your husband, but you had done a lot. I mean, the first time you have sex while married with another guy, the guy that you had that instant chemistry. Yeah. Like, how was it?

And then how did you feel after? It was amazing. But it was also really afterwards did not feel good. He felt really guilty. He was cheating. But you had to pretend you felt guilty. Yeah, and I kind of did because I kind of felt like it still felt like kind of subversive and wrong somehow.

I mean, there's a lot of programming that goes into keeping the monogamous culture going. So I was feeling very unsure of these steps I was taking. And this is where my mother comes in because my mother and I finally talked about the fact that she had an open marriage. She didn't use that language either. She said, I had an affair, but with your father's blessing. It was your father's idea. I like that.

It was your father's idea that I have an affair. And then I'm like, I don't think that's called an affair then, mom. But she was there to tell me like, oh, honey, it's okay. She's such a nice Midwestern lady. She's also, it's like an English teacher. And nobody would have ever, ever, ever guessed. I sure didn't guess. But she became one of my biggest confidants and giving me reassurance that this was, this was fine, this was good.

This was good for me. this was good for my marriage. And I think if I hadn't had my mother's voice telling me these things, I probably would have bailed earlier on it. But like this first guy, I call him Matt in the book, we were just kind of on and off. I mean, it was probably, we probably had sex like eight times over four years or something. You know what I mean?

It was like it was not like a long term torrid. It was long term in that we were, it happened for over years. but it was like he would get so guilty afterwards. He'd be like, I can't do this anymore. And so it was after that ended that I was like, all right, let me go on Ashley Madison. And that became the next chapter kind of of the next segment of my journey when I was just seeing men who were cheating on their wives. And now when you were on Ashley, were you finally being open to the fact that you weren't cheating on your husband?

No. Or you're still playing that game with those guys too. Still playing the game. Still playing the game. I mean, it was years of playing the game of pretending. And it was, and my therapist first encouraged me, maybe, maybe you could tell somebody. Yeah. And so I did.

I started to tell one guy in particular I write about and he was like, he was impressed. He was like, I think that's really evolved. That's great. And I had thought that it was just going to kind of ruin it. But once then I had a couple more. It was also, it wasn't really fun for me dating people who were cheating because we could go out. We can do anything. We were hiding. I was like, what am I doing? You know what I mean? I actually can go out. Yeah, exactly. It was finally in a round, yeah, when the OKCupid dropped on

anything, that was about 2015 that I, that I discovered OKCupid and started meeting people on that. And that became my app of choice for the next several years. Yeah, because they had that whole sex section, right, where you could really put some stuff in there so that people had a real idea of what you were down for and there was like a lot of alternative stuff which I think was great it is great it was great and yeah and I was able to find actual humans who were in open relationships and and connect in a in a more honest way the first person I did connect with though you'll read about and more was like there was some other dishonesty happening so one thing that's interesting is you know you'll often hear the term ethical

non-monogamy. But I mean, it can be that you're openly talking about it, but there's plenty of unethical behavior that goes on in open relationships. And there are people, people have rules that they break and then they lie to their partner about what they did do, what they didn't do. There's a lot to negotiate still. It's radical to be completely honest. And it's hard. And so just start. with the honest part of saying, I'm going to, you can sleep with other people and I'm going to sleep with other people. That's step one. But there's a lot more honesty that is required. Oh, yeah. And a lot of it, it's, it's, I don't like to call myself ethically nonmonogamous because

I've done so many unethical things. I try to be more ethical now. Of course. But I'm like, I've just talked about how I was on Ashley Madison for like years. So I can't pretend like I'm this bastion of ethics. I'm not. Well, let's go back a little bit. but and I would just want to ask a couple questions about your husband because I don't know anything that's going on with him yet. I know he's got the compersion thing. Like after your first hookup, you come home. Is he just like down for it? And this is like all good for him right from the get-go? Or did he have some uncomfortable feelings too about it? He tells me now that he did. Like I didn't see many of his his feelings about it. I didn't. I think he was, I think it was 90% good for him. But so, so, so.

any any discomfort he had was kind of muted even within himself yeah so it wasn't it wasn't there were no never any deal breakers for him around it there were times where i was getting like new relationship energy for somebody and he was just like kind of sick of hearing about them you know what i mean oh my god it's so funny yeah but but meanwhile on his end if he were talking about somebody with me. I mean, he couldn't do that. I was, it's taken a long time for me to get comfortable with him talking about his other relationships. And I never really want to hear about what's happening sexually with, with the people he's dating. I, I find out about new moves he's got because I've learned that I benefit from them. You know what I mean? I'll just tell you last, we've been married 25 years. He did something new last night. That was awesome. And I still, I don't even.

even know exactly what it was. I am confused. But I was like, but that's a pretty nice situation to be in 25 years in that your husband is pulling out some new moves on you. So I feel like I've come to a place now where I appreciate it and I don't ask questions of like, where did you get that one? You know what I mean? But I'm a lot more comfortable now than I was, you know, even five years ago, let alone 15 years ago. Well, then how did that transition? happen with your husband? Like here you are like going on Ashley Madison. You're seeing these guys. You're doing all that. Like when did the conversations come up about your husband going out and meeting somebody? And when is his first encounter? And how did that go down? Yeah. Well, that was very early on.

So that was when I had been with Matt a couple of times. And then I was taking my kids to Chicago, where I'm from, to visit my parents. And my husband asked me, would it be okay if I went out? with Lena while you're gone and Lena was his ex-girlfriend and I was like well okay I guess this is it this is what we talked about that if he had an opportunity because it was

like this was before we had we both went on Ashley Madison for a while and then okay he found okay Cupid first too but like when we were still like where will we find partners you know what I mean that without trying to hit up our neighbors or the parents of our son's friends

So it started for him with an ex, and that was really, really hard for me. It would have been really hard for me no matter who it was. But we got through it, and I write about that in more. And then when I was on Ashley Madison, he was on Ashley Madison. And it was like the women always had so much more sympathetic stories. Women on Ashley Madison often were like in these sexless marriages and just, you know, didn't want to leave their husband because they had kids. Whereas like the men I was feeding on Ashley Madison just felt a lot slimyer.

Do you know what I mean? I was like, God damn it. There were times when I was like, I did kind of give it the old college try to be at least bisexual. Because I was like, it seems really nice to date women. Yeah. I would much rather date women. But alas, my sexual proclivities are still hetero. And I'm not saying that it's easy to be a lesbian because there's lots of ways

in which it is not easy, but in terms of just avoiding men entirely, there were times when I was like, I really wish I could date women because it seemed like my husband was having such an easier time than I was. And he was also getting to have this experience of rocking women's worlds, like women who hadn't had an orgasm ever. And he was giving them their first orgasm kind of thing. He kept having these experiences where, and so women started falling in love with him and left. And I had trouble with that. It was more once he started having feelings for someone else, too. So in 2015, one of the first people that I met on OKCupid right around the time that

and that did really develop into having my having feelings for someone that were real, I think, for the first time. He also started developing feelings for somebody that he met on OKCupid. and he is still with that person. Oh, wow. Nine years later, he has had other relationships too and continues to see people besides her. But, yeah, he has been in a nine-year relationship now that has, you know, has been very

challenging for me at times, but so much easier for me now. I've met her. She's lovely. And she's married and has three kids and also in an open marriage. So it's like it all works. And I don't feel any threat anymore. either because it's also okay if if if sewer was going to leave me and and marry someone else it would have happened by now and and he and he and i are really like our marriage is in a better place than it's

ever been i honestly believe i know it i feel it so i don't feel any threat from from her and i know she brings him happiness in lots of ways and so in that sense i do feel compersion if you define it less in a sexual way. And I've also seen it just feeling joy because your partner feels joy. Yeah, that's interesting. I have arrived at that place. I am, I am happy when he is happy. When he has been on the cusp of breaking up with her, I call her Kiwi in the book because she's from New Zealand and that's like our nickname for her. But when they, they have had some rocky patches over the nine years and there have been times where I'm like, do you want me to talk to her? Do you want me to let her know how much she means to you? Or I, like, I don't,

want that relationship to end because I know how much joy it brings my husband. And so it's an interesting thing that I can get to that place now emotionally. I still don't want to know about their sex life. That does nothing for me. It just kind of pisses me off or makes me feel insecure. I don't know. It almost feels like it's not my business. Isn't that weird? It feels like I've never been a voyeur. I don't watch porn. I'm not, I just don't get into it. If I'm not involved in the sex, I really don't want to be there. Yeah, just that was the same reason why you said you hated like swingers parties or whatever when you did that stuff like that. It's not you. Listen, know thyself. It's not me.

Myself is my favorite saying. That's just who you are. No need to twist yourself into a pretzel to do something that you're not down for. So I think that that's cool. I love your story because it has these little twists and it is a little different. And I feel like why I love to talk to a million people in open relationships and show every kind of story is because there's other people out there that are probably like you that are like, wow, like it could work with me not wanting to know about the sex and me having a partner and all these things. And I feel like you give people hope. Basically, you guys were over communicators, right? Because you know, you're constantly talking about how difficult things were and you kept doing the thing. So like, what was the key to getting through it?

Was it that over communication and being totally transparent? Was it that therapy? that you had, was it all of it? I think, yeah. I mean, I think the communication is absolutely essential. You can't do this without communication. And we went to see the therapist. That was my ultimatum. I never said we have to close the marriage or I'm leaving you.

I didn't ever say that. There were times I wanted to close the marriage and I said to Stewart, we have to go to couples counseling or we're going to close the marriage. That was what I used as my threat because I was like, I was like, I'm not, you're kind of like, let's get a little help here. Like maybe you're not right. I mean, I like that. I knew we needed some some more tools. I knew, I mean, the way I felt was that he wasn't hearing me. Of course, what turned out when we went to couples therapy was like, oh, I wasn't hearing him either. There was some big, I had some big blind spots as to what he was experiencing. And so it was really helpful having that other person.

And I like, not every couple therapists like this, but most that I have heard about, and this one certainly was, seem to think of couples counseling as more of a short-term thing. Like I said, I was in personal therapy one-on-one for 10 years. And I've actually just recently started going back again. But I feel like with couples counseling, you can do it for a finite time. You can do this as I do feel like a year of couples counseling is. so much cheaper than a divorce lawyer. True.

And I'm not anti-divorce at all. I feel like there are times when like people are growing in different, you can't grow and stay together. And to me, we're here to grow. And so if you're not growing, there's really no point in being in a marriage. So I felt though like we had gotten stuck and we got these tools within that year.

It wasn't like we were, I felt like we didn't have to commit. to be in couples therapy until the end of time, I felt like we had to commit to learning some tools and then using them. Yeah. And so that's, I think, what we started getting good at doing just some simple things. There was this one exercise she had us do where we just had to, you know, it's so simple, but we had to repeat back to the other person what we heard them saying.

Like every minute or two to stop and be like, okay, so what I'm hearing you say is that you feel upset when I blank. And you would prefer if I blank. And it also changes the way you talk because you know you're going to hear it back. Yeah. And so things like that or the other one was just like making sure we planned time for fighting, kind of. It was like we had our Saturday night date nights, which kept getting co-opted by fights.

And so she was like, you need to have a different night that's fighting night. You know what I mean? Or like, or like you have to have your, yeah, it was, it was just, it kind of protected our together time that was meant to be connective, but we still needed that time to argue. And it doesn't work perfectly. But it was like, it was just like, it just allows you to kind of put a pin in it and not go at the other person and right away. and also not just buried under the rug and let it fester forever, to have like these kind of check-in times to be like, at this time, every week, we're going to sit down and talk about how are things going with the open marriage? And we're going to have something to talk about every week, even if we sit down and talk about it's going well because I'm noticing that you're being more thoughtful about blank or whatever it is. So those little things go a long way. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Let me ask you this because I feel like, I really believe in therapy. I'm always pitching it to people.

I don't know why better help isn't my permanent sponsor. But I do think like that time when you walk into a couple's therapist and you're looking for people, are you like, did you look for somebody that had experience in this? Or did you just tell them like straight off the bat, listen, this is what we're dealing with. And this is what we want to talk about it. And I want to make sure you're like comfortable with this. Because I feel like a lot of therapists might have never heard or been higher to talk to.

a couple who's having difficulties because there's partners willingly banging somebody else? Well, I was lucky. First of all, my regular therapist who I call Mitchell in the book. He was recommended to me by a friend and he's awesome. And then Mitchell recommended our couples counselor. So Mitchell knew what was going on with you. Oh, yes. And so, yeah.

So I asked him for names of couples therapists and this is, he gave him. us like three names and she was they had the best availability is kind of like how it worked and she was great so yeah I call her evelyn in the book so our year of couples counseling is also documented yeah I feel like evelyn should put that in her bio nowadays like not only they're they're both they're both I don't think seeing new they were both like kind of older at the time we were seeing them and so neither of them I think is taking new clients I think they made I know Mitchell is still working, but not taking you clients and Evelyn may be retired. I'm not sure. Yeah, but I think it's super helpful. Because navigating this kind of situation or even the

lifestyle or whatever you're doing, that's a little alternative other than monogamy, even monogamous people, vanilla people need a fucking therapist, right? And could use the things that you're talking about in any relationship. They're healthy, right? But when you're doing stuff that you're doing, you need it even more. And I'm assuming, I would assume that there's a lot more therapists out there that are talking to people about this or they should. Or, you know, I think it's such a smart move on your point to tell your husband to do that. It was very fit. Listen, I know that you, you know, you were like ready to end things, but it was very fair of you to say, hey, before I do that, let's go and talk and give this a shot. Well, to be to be fair, like, I knew he, I knew that was going to make him agree. If I said, we're closing the marriage unless you go to couples counseling with me, obviously.

I knew what he was going to pick. So it was manipulative on my part. Yeah, but I still respect the fact, though, that you wanted to work through it. It wasn't just a lot of other people would have just ended it. They wouldn't even want that problem to solve, to be solved. Yeah. Well, I've never wanted to leave Stewart. And I'll, I mean, like, not, I mean, yeah, for 10, 20 minutes at a time, sure.

But not like, really. But did you think he'd leave you if you said, I'm not doing this anymore? So the fact that you still wanted to fix it, I think, says something about you. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you. I'll take it. I'll take the compliment.

Yeah, take the compliment because I think that that's... Trying to talk to out of complimenting it. I'm like, no, but you don't understand. I'm so manipulative. You think so? I don't think so. I think there was a lot of different things that could have went down. And that was the most fair.

And look, it's see, it not only saved that. your open relationship. It helped you through it. And I think that there's nothing better than therapy. Like when you said before, that you could just put a pin in it because you have this specific time that you're going to go. And no matter how many, like I said, I talk to people all day long who are hardcore in the lifestyle or hardcore hot wifing, cucking, doing all these kinds of things. And even the most professional people who have been doing it for a long time, always talk about the fact that there's just going to be times where you might have a weird feeling about something or jealousy comes up. Everyone says it's not like it never comes up. There's no top of the mountain where you're doing it for a certain amount of time and you're just completely free and you're not a human being anymore and you have no emotions, right? Sometimes it's just the way the wind blows or your hormones aren't.

If you have your period, you might get jealous when you've never been jealous. And, you know, what I think what's most important is that you could bring that to your partner and they can receive it and talk to you about it. So like when you would go back to your guy in the beginning because you were really pushing back on him with the women. right? Like how did he take those conversations? I mean, that's this is partly why we needed help because I was getting, I was really angry. I was, there was a lot of kind of backlogged anger that, that we hadn't worked through that went back to kind of imbalances in what I was doing in terms of like the household load and kind of very standard. heteronarital issues where like you work too much and I'm doing it.

There was, I mean, but some of that was like, wait, how come you had to work late for the last 10 years and now you're able to leave work to go out with this other woman? So that was where a lot of my anger came up. And I still feel like that's, that was a valid thing. But he also did have a perspective on it. And partly it was that I had made it pretty difficult for him to not, I, I'm saying this in extreme ways, but I had been pretty controlling around a lot of the stuff with the kids and everything. And so that he felt like any time he was doing anything, I was criticizing him for doing it wrong. Yeah. We had to go back. In other words, in couples counseling, what was interesting was so many of the things I was angry at him about really had old roots that predated being open. You know what I mean? It was like, it was just kind of shining a light on it. Like how dare you or even being like, wait, you're taking her out for breakfast. When's the last time you took me out for breakfast?

And that could just be, why don't you ever take me out for breakfast? But she made you realize that. That's so, yeah, that's so interesting. And so, and then, but part of it then was we started doing things like that. He was like, oh, you want to go out to breakfast? We'll go out to breakfast. Yeah. It was like kind of an easy fix, actually.

But like, but I still had, we still have these, this old stuff that had come up. In many ways, open marriage helped us to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, heal some of the older wounds because it brought it out in the light. And so instead of burying, again, feelings, which happens over the course of a marriage if you don't keep talking, which is why it is so important to communicate through an open marriage. But it is also, as you said, important to communicate through a monogamous marriage. And in some ways, it's like our communication skills had to get that much better because we were opening. And so now we're able to talk about everything, not just about the sexy stuff that's happening

with open marriage. We're able to talk a lot about all the humdrum things that can cause friction and anger in any marriage. Yeah, absolutely. I say it all the time because a lot of times people will throw like vanilla relationships into the mix comparing and putting down people who are open. And I'm like in a weird way, a lot of times the people that I'm talking to have better relationships after they open up because of that over communication. Nobody in the vanilla world over communicates with each other. They barely communicate. It's very common. I don't, I think we should

be careful not to say nobody. No, no, but you know, okay, majority, majority. Like a lot of people, no, I'm just saying like a lot. Let's talk about like the typical person that read the book is just going autopilot, right? What we think, the stereotype of the person who's just after a couple kids and stuff, they're barely talking to each other. All those people you're on Ashley Madison. I know those guys, they call me to my show. If you dug deep with them, you think that they're just like hoarding and getting their dick wet. Trust me, they're having issues at home too, okay? Most of the time, women and men cheat for the same reason. Men just don't put it into words, but when they talk to me after an hour, I get to the root of it and it's the same thing.

They don't feel they're not getting the stuff at home. It's all that. So I just think that a lot of times you just, because you don't have these kinds of pressing things and new things, right, to discuss, you're just on autopilot. And you're just on autopilot. And you're, You have the kids and everything and you're just Groundhog Day and you're not talking anymore. And that's like that. That's what happens. And that's the disconnect that happens in a lot of marriages. That's why anybody could use therapy at any time.

But I do believe, though, that that's one of the greatest things that opening up a marriage brings to the people who are successful at it. That over communicating, people always say at the end of my episode, I always like to ask, like, how did this change your relationship? And it always is they feel closer because now they're not. just talking about all the stuff that they did and their feelings and stuff that happened the night before and what they're going to do and the rules they're talking about other things more now too and that's true intimacy and sometimes that's sometimes the first thing that goes out the window after 10 years of marriage so that's all I'm saying yeah I hear what you're saying I agree yeah I think it's like amazing and so just a quick question though about your guy because he was

into the compurgent did he ever ask to play along to join you for videos, for pictures. I mean, it sounds kind of like you guys were always solo having separate relationships with other people. Yes. And that has always been my preference to be solo. Yeah. He has had some threesomes that don't involve me.

And that's the way I want it. I don't want to be there. Yeah, we've talked some about an MFMFM. three some like that is still like kind of on my bucket list of things to do but I'm still not because I really for me like the connective part of sex is so important to me there is something yeah I'm not 100% sure how I would feel about it being kind of like then it it's more just like sex you know what I mean? Totally.

I like, I, for me, sex is kind of spiritual. Like, it's come to that place for me. And so I can see it, though. I can see it happening in maybe the near future that we would do that. But it hasn't been something I've. And yeah, it's an interesting thing, though, because one of the interesting things I think is that, like you're saying this, different people like different things. And I think part of why I rejected a label of being like, oh, I'm Polly early on is because I saw so much, there's so much in the, there's so much overlap, I think, and the way people talk anyway about Polly and E&M and Kink.

Yes. You know what I mean? And there is an assumption often that if you're Polly, you're kinky. Yes. And I'm not very kinky. And so, but it's also like one man's kink is another man's vanilla. Like compared to a lot of people, I'm probably kinkier. But that doesn't mean that I'm like, I get nervous being group sex scenarios still make me nervous because I'm worried about assumptions people will make.

And I know there's always a lot. In my experience, sometimes there's more lip service given to consent than in the moment consent. So I get, I bristle a little bit at it. And it's so important for me to be, like to be with two men that I completely trust, yes, but I would also feel, I think, a little anxious about how they're feeling with each other. I don't know. It just feels like, feels like a lot to emotionally regulate. And in a way that, like, I'm not even sure I can relax.

But I don't know. It's still an interesting thought to me, but it's not necessarily like, my main thing that I'm into. Yeah. No, I mean, I understand it. Listen, that might be your third book. Who knows? You're writing your second book now.

Thank you for saying that. Yeah, my second book is, yeah, I'm working on. And that's a lot about things I learned from, from, it's also kind of like the spiritual piece of this journey. And the, it's called Metamore. Oh, oh, great title. Great follow up. Yeah, great.

Right, because more metamore. Yes. Killer. And it's also about, and it's very much about one partner in particular that my husband had. And at the same time, the boyfriend I was seeing at the time his wife were both opening me up to some crazy new realms. Interesting. Oh, my God. Well, you're going to have to come back on and tell me that story and tease it on an episode, right, when that comes out?

Well, I still have to write it. All right. You're doing that right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love what I do. So I'll still be doing it when that comes out. Do me a favor. And give me like, listen, I love your story. I love all the things that we talked about. I feel like, you know, people get more and learn even more through your book. More. But I just use that word, right? More. Yeah. A member of open marriage. Molly wrote in winter. Why don't you give out the deed to tell them where they could get it? I'm going to put a link. You could send me a link if you want. I'll put the J-P. on my Patreon. I have a lot of people who love to read books. What's great about podcasting nowadays is that couples are listening to them to learn. And I think I'm going to get emails from people like, oh my God, I love Molly's episode. Like I learned so much.

Like where can I get her epic book to get more of this, right? That we need more. I could talk to you for another two hours. We're like at an hour. So I'm like wrapping it up. But I do want more. And people could get more of this and your story and your insight and your journey in your book. So just give a shout out to all of that. Sure. Yeah. So there you can really get it anywhere books are

sold. It's on Amazon. It's Barnes & Noble. It's, you know, in in bookstores. I read the audiobook and the audiobook is available on Spotify, Audible, wherever you get your audiobooks. And the e-book is also available. Kindle, wherever, wherever you get your e-books. So you don't have to look very hard. But my, my website is molly roadinwinter.com you can find me on Instagram at molly r winter and yeah I'd be I'd be delighted to to hear if anybody you know write to you with any questions or follow up too this episode's gonna sell some books you'll see my audience is going to go out because I mean I just feel like there's so much more to your story and like I said

people are coming to podcast nowadays to learn more about this lifestyle it's not therapy available now for people, it is podcast, right? That is how people are learning. And I get emails from people all the time that they learn stuff and my podcast was really helpful. And I feel like this episode is going to do that. And then they could get more in your book. Quick question. Did you do a lot of press when you came out with your book? Yeah, we got a lot of publicity. We actually got on the New York Times bestseller list in the second week. So that was exciting. That's major. Yeah. And we got got write-ups in the New York Times. And And I had some essays that got put out in Time and New York Magazine and some big outlets I got on.

Dan Savage had me on. That was exciting. So, yeah, there was a lot of press. It's kind of continued in some ways because I think exactly what you're saying, people are interested. And I think it surprised my publisher just as much as it surprised me that like the interest in mainstream media, like Washington Post wrote about it, the Wall Street Journal wrote about it, Financial Times wrote about it. There was just a lot of mainstream media attention and not so much TV. They talked about it on the view, but kind of discouragingly.

Yeah, that's what I was wondering if we got in front of them. There was a roundup for Valentine's books, which I thought was hilarious on Good Morning America. They did a Valentine's Day Roundup and I was one of the books featured there. Yeah. Yeah, but it's been kind of like all over the map, which has been really exciting. You need to go on Dr. Drew's show because I just, sometimes I can. can't I always loved him and and then I hear him sometimes on other people's podcasts and whenever something like this comes up he's like oh open relationships it's a study show it never works I mean he just

like spuse out this nonsense and I'm always like wow like I'm always like fuck you Dr. Drew who have you talk to like where are you talking from doctor Phil wanted me on and I said no yeah because I know it would be like that I just don't want to be just in like Dr. Drew please because I always loved him and I think he's just talking out of his ass and pandering to the audience that he's talking to when he's on these like vanilla podcasts that I listen to. But I feel like, you know, he might be open if you could get on his show and explain to him your success story. But you could give him the good, the bad and the ugly, but you're still together and you have an open marriage. And it can work. Okay. He needs to know that. All right. I'll look into it. So wait, I don't even know him. I've never is Dr. Dr. Drew. Oh my God. Dr. Drew. He's like intervention. Yes. He's like the doctor Oz of addiction. Oh. Oh, okay. You know Dr. Drew. When you Google him, you're going to know exactly who. There's no way you don't know who Dr. Drew is.

He had love lines. He had love lines for years. He was very famous with love lines with Adam Carolla and Dr. Drew, I think was Adam Corolla. And then he did intervention on Lifetime. And then now he's just like all over the place. He's still like an expert. And he's talking out of his ass about open relationships.

And I think he'd be down because you're New York Times bestseller, author. You need to get in there and get him. up to speed, okay, because I used to like him and I'm so mad at him and I'll like him again. You've got to tell him it could work. Okay. Okay. Well, we're going to do a round of another round of publicity when the paperback is coming out in January. So I can, what's nice is having the machinery of, and what I want to tell you too about your own book.

Yeah. It's nice having the machinery of a publisher behind you to do publicity. You know what I mean? Yeah. Tell them, Dr. Dr. Dr. I'm going to add it to my list of places to pitch for the public for the paper. you're back. Yeah, and I think he'd be down because you have the stuff to back you as like, you're legit, right? That he'd be open to it. You're big enough to get on. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that

he needs that. But I love that you wrote your book. I love that you put it out there. I love that your publisher, like you said, like they didn't even really expect it to be as big and to go as main chain, but they took a chance and like how great that they did. It is exciting. Yeah. It's exciting for the whole, as you say, for the whole movement. 100% just like for people open your minds to oh this isn't just fringe culture and that's why it was also important for me to use my name to be like I have children I don't look I'm not I'm not covered in like tattoos and nose rings and not that there's anything wrong with it but people make assumptions that are just not true I always say there's not some pervert island where all these people that do all these things that you think are quote unquote weird perverted whatever word you want to use were these people People live and they all look different and weird. I mean, they're just like regular people. I mean, this is just the way that it is.

That's kind of like what my show is here to say. But I also love that. You did it for your mom too. I mean, how proud was she be for you? This was like just this regular gal living in the southwest or wherever she was, doing her very on the DL thing. And now here's her daughter doing the same thing and then having huge success, sort of being open and telling her story.

That's like pretty amazing. Well, thank you. Yeah, she's come around. She was pretty nervous, but now she's very proud. Yeah, please. And she'll only be more proud when you're second and third. So anyway, thank you, Molly, for coming on. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

I can't wait to tell, will you ping me when there's or tag me or whatever you do when it comes out? You know exactly when it goes out. Okay, cool. And I have a big audience. So you're going to sell a lot of books, you'll say. Oh, thank you. All right. Thanks, Molly.

Thank you very much. You're welcome. Bye. Bye. Bye. Okay, I just want to tell you before you go that my, book, it's called Strictly Anonymous Confession, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers, is now available, not only in paperback and e-book, but you can pre-order the audiobook. It's still not going to be out

until August 25th, but you can pre-order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story. There's a cuck queen story. There's a cuck queen story. There's a cuck story. There's a gang being girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person. And they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person. And I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book. Think like penthouse letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that kind of vibe, right? But these are true stories. 17 of them. They're really short chapters, easy read. You could read, you know, one or two and then skip

around. You could read the whole book. It's available in eback format, paperback format. And finally, the audiobook is available coming out August 25th. But you could pre-order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or pre-order it, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint. Okay. There's no way you get into it. my Discord any other way than getting the link from me. Okay, I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. Everybody shares content with each other. And that's what you get to do there. You could post your own pictures and videos. There's tons of channels. We have lots of contests where you can win a lot of money. It's a super fun place to be. It's a total,

strictly anonymous community and you will love it. I will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my Discord. It's private, like I said. All you got to do is email. me a screenshot of your purchase, whether you did the audiobook, the e-book, or the paperback. Send it to me at Strictly Anonymous Podcast at gmail.com. That's Strictly Anonymous Podcast at gmail.com. And I will send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast.

Good news. Strictly Anonymous Podcast is looking for people to call in to the show. So if you lead an interesting, naughty secret life that you want to talk about while remaining anonymous or not anonymous, if you're out and proud, that's cool too. Send me an email, Strictly Anonymous Podcast at gmail.com. That's strictly anonymous podcast at gmail.com. Or go to my website, strictly anonymous podcast.com and click on, be on the show. If you have a short confession that you want to get off your back, call my Confessions Hotline 347, 42035.com. 79, that's 347, 4203579. You could call that number 247. I change all the voices on the confessions

too, so you remain anonymous. The number, the website, and the email address will all be in the description. If you want to follow the show, follow me at Strict Anonymous on either Instagram or Twitter. That's at Strict Anonymous. And if you want to sign up for my Patreon, you're not only supporting my show, but you're going to get all of these episodes early. an ad free. You're going to get anonymous picks of all of my guests. Most of the girls send me in anonymous hot picks of themselves. And some of the guys are sending me in anonymous picks as well. You also get access to my private discord where people are getting super naughty. If you sign up for my Discord, you could post whatever you want and talk to my other listeners. To sign up for my Patreon,

just go to patreon.com slash strictly anonymous podcast. That's patreon.com slash strictly anonymous podcast. The links and everything else I spoke about are all in the description. Thanks so much for listening.