Stuff You Should Know - Blacksmiths? You got that right!

Episode Date: August 27, 2020

Blacksmiths? You got that right. Learn all about this age old occupation in today's episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass

and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say. Bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey everybody, I don't know if you've heard, but we have a book coming out. Finally, finally, after all these years, it's great, it's fun, you're gonna love it, it's called Stuff You Should Know,

colon, an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things. Yep, and it's 26 jam-packed chapters that we wrote with another guy named Nils Parker, who's amazing and is illustrated amazingly by our illustrator, Carly Monardo, and it's just an all-around joy to pick up and read. Even though we haven't physically held in our hands yet,

it's like we have, Chuck, in our dreams so far. I can't wait to actually see and hold this thing and smell it, and so should you. So pre-order now, it means a lot to us. The support is a very big deal. So pre-order anywhere books are sold. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio's How Stuff Works.

["Song of Love"] Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant over there, and Jerry's out there somewhere, and this is Stuff You Should Know. Did I tell you about my new hobby? It started yesterday? I'll bet I can guess.

Watching blacksmithing videos. Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing, man, like I don't have any desire to blacksmith myself. Nope. I just like watching these videos. There's something really amazing about them. Yeah, there's one, I don't know if you watched. It's on YouTube.

It's called blacksmithing Forging a Bearded Axe. No, I didn't see that one. Oh, God. What? It just reminds me of the sort of the lulling of that show, How It's Made. But I watched this video, and most of them have some sped up stuff too,

because blacksmithing takes so long that a 30 minute video, I mean, half of it is in fast motion, so it just goes to show you, and it's edited. And they always do, they always put it to yackety sacks. But it's just crazy though, when you see how long it takes to make this one axe, and then you think about outfitting armies, it just feels like

it was every other person a blacksmith, and did they just do that 24 seven? Yeah, I get the impression there was a Walt Whitman poem about blacksmiths, and he was basically like, they were the most important people in any community. Everybody loved them. They owed no one anything, because they never had any debts, because they were so vital that anything they did

probably was worth 10 times what anybody else could do for them, and they seem to have been pretty amazing people on the whole. Yeah, I mean, and we'll talk about this more, but when you think about just nails, and how many nails built this country and the world, those nails had to be forged. Yeah, when you watch some of these blacksmith videos,

and like you're saying, when you do see how long it takes to just make an average thing that you would like buy in a second these days, it really gives you an appreciation for just what a sea change the Industrial Revolution was. Yeah, amazing. To where this was automated and made, converted to mass production.

It just could have never happened before. And it didn't happen before, but it was up to the lone blacksmith to equip their entire communities with all this stuff. It's pretty cool. So are we gonna do blacksmith history first or the metal history first? We'll do blacksmith history first, I think.

Okay, I guess we gotta look at the name, because if you look at other smiths, they were all a little more specific. They were called bronze smiths, blacksmiths are not called iron smiths, even though they work with iron and most of the other smiths were named for the metal that they work with.

Silver smith, that's a good one. Yeah, oh god, good silver smith. Sure. It's worth their weight and it's gold. Silver. Don't bring up gold to those guys. Oh no, no. But black comes from, well, we're not positive, but one explanation is blacksmith comes

from the hammer scale, or these scales. If you're watching these videos, you'll see when they're hammering this stuff, these little tiny chunky thin, not chunky actually, just little chunks of thin scales are falling off. Every time they hammer it, that's the hammer scale. And it is black and your hands get all black and your face gets black,

or it might've just been because iron is black. Typically, it's pretty dark, it's dark enough, especially wrought iron, it tends to be black. So that's where they think, one of those two reasons is where blacksmith came from. And the name Smith itself, we actually talk about this in our book that's coming out, you know,

in the episode on keeping up with the Joneses. Oh, that's right. We talked about- You mean the chapter? Yeah, yeah, the chapter. In our book, we talk about how keeping up with the Joneses could have very easily been keeping up with the Smiths because the two names are so prevalent.

And in fact, Smith is the most prevalent name in the United States, and it's all derived from blacksmiths, and just how many blacksmiths there were, because every community needed one. And then if you were in a large enough community, you had multiple blacksmiths all working, because one blacksmith had to do all this work

to supply this one community with all this stuff, and they could only keep up with a certain size community, you know? Yeah, and if you had an onsite thing that you were doing, you had a blacksmith with you. If you were out at war in battle, you had blacksmiths there, because not only do they create these weapons and the armor,

but they have to fix stuff. You know, after a big long day of battle, you go in and trade in your sword and say, fix this thing. And those Smithies got to be working round the clock. Yeah, and they have like apprentices and help and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I mean, you get the impression that the community could come to a standstill

when the blacksmith was sick for a week or something. Yeah, and there were blacksmiths doing all kinds of work all over the place. So many that they eventually, and this makes sense, would become a little more specialized. And horses were a big deal back then. We still love horses today, but back then they did a lot more for humanity

than just look pretty and run around in fields now. Right. So they had to make horseshoes, and it was a very specialized set of equipment for making horseshoes as opposed to just regular blacksmithing. So that was a very busy job. They were called farriers. And even when blacksmithing as a whole kind of went away,

there were still farriers working because it's not like a shoe store where one size fits all, well, shoe stores aren't one size fits all, but it's very specific to your foot size or your hoof size as a horse. So you can't just throw any old shoe that's close enough on there. You got to make them a la carte basically,

made to order, I think in the fashion world, what's it called? Prediporte? Bespoke. Oh yeah, that's the opposite of prediporte. And so farriers continue to work for years and years and years. And I think there are people that still do farrier work today, aren't they?

Sure, sure. Just to show off, right, sure. But I guess you kind of spoiled the ending. Blacksmiths aren't really around much today because of industrialization, but they were- Oh, they're around though. They're in Brooklyn, New York, I guarantee it. Yeah, they are.

For about 2,000 years, they were extraordinarily important to society. But society was around for a very long time before blacksmiths came around. So there's this really important window in the historical development of human society that blacksmiths existed in. Prior to that, we had tools,

but they were mostly made of stone. And then at some point, somebody said, hey, if you put tin and copper together, you can come up with a stuff called bronze. And it's pretty great. You can make some pretty neat things with it. And one of the things about bronze is that it has a fairly low melting point,

something like 1742 degrees Fahrenheit, 950 degrees Celsius, which you could get a hot campfire to that temperature to melt, melt into molten liquid bronze, which means that you can create casts and molds and you can pour that molten bronze into it. And as it cools, you've got a handy sword that you can make over and over and over again.

So bronze fulfilled this purpose for tools for many thousands of years. So much so that, and these metals were so important, that we go back and call these historical ages by the name of the metal tools that were being produced. So you get the bronze age, and then that was eventually followed by the iron age. And one thing that stuck out to me, Chuck,

I hadn't realized before, is that you think of history as progressing constantly, but the bronze age, even though it was followed by the iron age, the iron age marked a period of cultural decline where the bronze age, which had come previously, was a period of cultural blossoming. But for the first several centuries of the iron age,

it was a step backwards. A lot of the classical or antiquity societies kind of crumbled at about the same time. They think possibly because of climate change or mass droughts and starvation, kind of like the Maya. Yeah, so it's not like the iron caused that, but iron, like really good bronze, is probably superior to iron in a lot of ways.

I think iron is a little softer. It might rust a little quicker. It depends on what kind of iron you have for sure. Right, but the iron that they were using, basically they started using, and there's not like a demarcation line then, there is some overlap and no one knows exactly when the big switch happened, but it was cheaper

and it was more readily available than bronze was. So they just started using iron basically and it surpassed bronze. Yeah, the Greeks pin a semi-mythical group called the Chalabies, who supposedly were absorbed by the Hittites in Anatolia and Turkey, and that they were the ones who figured out how to mine iron. Because originally there was iron stuff,

like King Tut was found with a dagger made of iron, and it would have been even more highly prized than anything made of gold in his entire tomb, because iron was so rare at that time, because the only source of iron on earth, as far as humans knew, came in the form of meteorites. So you had to find a meteorite above ground to find your deposit of iron.

So making a dagger out of that would have been, that would have been a very special dagger. And then eventually they say the Chalabies figured out, now there's actually iron like in rock, in the earth, and people started figuring out that you could take that rock and heat it to some pretty high temperatures considering, and then hammer it, and you can hammer the other stuff out, the ore out, or hammer the iron from the ore,

and you have something approaching what you would consider iron, something called bloom. Yeah, so they just couldn't get the fire hot enough basically at first to get to the iron point, but they could make it hot enough to get to the bloom, and they would put it in an oven known as a bloomery, and it would kind of just roast out those impurities. It had iron, it had slag,

which is sort of a glass-like byproduct, that you, you know, it's so funny that you can just hammer this stuff out. But bloom would eventually, when they, I mean, it worked okay, you could heat it up, you could hammer it, and it would get a lot of the slag out, and it was useful enough for tools, but when the blast furnace came around,

when you really got larger furnaces and hotter fires that incorporated bellows to really get that oxygen in there and get it super, super hot, that eventually allowed them to get that ore to pig iron, and pig iron was a pretty big advancement, because from pig iron, you could hammer that slag out to eventually get to wrought iron. Right, I want to give a shout out to Harold DeSmith, H-A-R-A-L-D.

He wrote an intro to iron smelting that talks all about making bloom himself with pictures. It's pretty cool, let's check it out for sure. And the Grabster helped us with this one, right? Yeah, big time, thank you, Grabster. But with pig iron, that was like a, it was like you said, like a pretty big change in that, like you could suddenly make much pure iron

because we had a much hotter furnace that we were working with. And the thing about pig iron is, in very much the same way as bloom, you've got to hammer out those impurities. And so to make pig iron into wrought iron, you would take this pig iron, which is pretty impure, heat it up and hammer it with a sledge hammer

over and over again, heat it, hammer it, heat it, hammer it. Very much the same process as bloom, but this at higher temperatures and producing a much pure iron. And then eventually you would have wrought iron. And they say that they figured out how to use water hammers, like water powered hammers. In part because of the plague of the 13th century,

it killed so many people that they didn't have the human power any longer that they needed to hammer pig iron. So it made people devise water hammers. Yeah, water hammers, steam hammers. You know, if you look at these videos today, these people and their shops and their sheds that they have behind their house,

have, it looks like hydraulics, I guess, that are pounding this stuff. And at first when I saw that, I was disappointed. I was like, oh man, but that's just the big initial work. Like there's still tons of hammer work by hand because there are many, many, there's a lot more to it than that initial hammering to get to the wrought iron stage.

But I was, at first I was kind of like, oh man, what? Well, they don't like swing a hammer anymore. Right, no, no, no, there's definitely- It's very smart, they don't need to swing a hammer. Right, it's called work smarter, not harder. But there are traditionalists who are like, no, I want to use a hammer. But so the different types of irons

that humans have come up with over the ages. And this is a really important point, I think we should point out here, Chuck. Like the blacksmithing and all of the information and knowledge and like ways of working with different types of iron and different techniques and actually coming up with different types of iron. All of that started with those people who figured out

that you could take rock from the earth and hammer the iron out of it. And just more and more people over the ages as it spread and continued to be around for hundreds and then thousands of years. All the people working with metal contributed to that body of knowledge. And so that's I think one of the things

that's so appealing about blacksmithing is that it is a genuine human technology that was created by humanity, you know? Not just like a couple of people who had a really good idea. It was this group of humans, countless humans all working together over thousands of years contributing to one another's knowledge to create this body of knowledge.

And I think that's what makes it so neat to me. So cool. And like such a brute way of doing it, you know? Those, the finesse comes in for sure. And maybe that's what I like about it is both. Like it's swinging the heavy hammer, but it's also doing this really beautiful finesse work later on in the project.

Right. Really cool. So if we're gonna, well, maybe let's take a break and then talk about the types of iron. How about that? Let's. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the co-classic show, Hey Dude,

bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews,

co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger

and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper, because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s.

Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road.

Ah, okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place, because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God.

Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS, because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander

each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never, ever have to say, bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. No, stuff you should know, stuff you should know. All right, we promise you talk of iron types. There's iron maiden. Sure. There's, um, take your iron supplement.

That's right. Uh, what else? There's really just iron maiden. Yeah, I guess so. That's all. That's all you need to know. Uh, iron types, they're based on the concept of the iron, so if you hear wrought iron,

you might just think that's like the cool thing that your, your stair case spindles are made out of. They are not made of wrought iron. They're made out of wrought iron anymore, at least. They used to be back in the day. Yeah. But this is also called bar iron. It's about 0.8, I'm sorry, 0.08% or less carbon.

And this is sort of, for what I saw, um, back in the day, just the main iron that they would mainly use for the most part. The wrought iron? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the difference, the big difference between wrought iron and steel is that wrought iron

has, um, silicates in it that kind of ends up as like these fibrous filaments that get hammered into order, basically, by the blacksmith. Um, from pig iron, which gives it a certain structure. With steel, steel, um, like you said, all types of iron are basically based on their carbon content. Steel has a much higher carbon content than wrought iron does. And so it doesn't need to be hammered like wrought iron does

because it doesn't have these iron silicates that need to be arranged just so or else it'll make it brittle. Um, instead, because of this carbon, um, uh, in it, it forms this kind of crystalline structure in the iron that makes it hard and durable, um, way, way harder and more durable than wrought iron. The problem is, is because of that, that durability and the strength and hardness,

um, it makes it more difficult for a blacksmith to work with down the line than it does wrought iron. But it's also a much more effective, say, battle axe than a wrought iron battle axe. Yeah. And like you said, it's not what we use on our staircase, isn't wrought iron these days. It's not wrought iron in the production of that.

And like a big wave went out in, you know, the 20th century pretty much all together. Went out with disco. Oh gosh, I wish it lasted until the 70s. So one thing we should say also, Chuck, is we tend to think of steel as like a modern invention. Steel was perfected in, in the modern times. It was like basically the thing that kicked off

the industrial revolution. Yeah. If I remember from our robber barons episode, but that's not to say that people weren't experimenting with steel long before that. It was just the scientific understanding of it was lacking. Instead, that was replaced by an intuitive understanding among blacksmiths of, you know,

what fuel did what to steel, what to iron to make it stronger. They weren't saying like, oh, if I use charcoal or coke, it's going to make this a better steel than say, you know, coal or something like that. That's right. Then you've also got cast iron. If you have a nice cast iron collection in your kitchen, it's going to be 2% carbon or more.

It's very brittle. So you're not going to hammer cast iron. No. It is formed into shape by casting it. That's why it's called cast iron. And use a mold while it's molten and poured in there. And it's a great thing to cook with. Yeah.

And we would have never been able to make anything out of cast iron until those bellows were introduced to the forge to really bring that temperature up because iron has a very high melting point. Yeah. If you're going to pour it, it's got to be super, super hot. And we'll get to these temperatures and the different kinds of hot later on, which is very interesting stuff.

Yeah. So we've got like the blacksmiths are working with this. They're figuring out that if you add like carbon or if you do this, like if you heat the iron to a certain temperature, and then take it off and hammer it and then let it cool on its own. It's going to form one type of finished product. If you do something, it was called quenching it, which is cooling it down in a bucket of water

and usually mineral oil these days. It's going to cool differently. So its structure is going to form differently. And again, they didn't, they were passing this knowledge on, but they weren't using terms necessarily that we were using. Right. What's interesting to me is we use terms that they came up with, like quenching and slag and scale and that kind of stuff.

Like those are all still very much around and it makes sense still. Even after having made the transition to industrialization, they still use words very much like that, if not those same words. Now, do you mean quenching is in how a human might quench their own thirst? Kind of, kind of, but rather than turning up a bucket of water and mineral oil, you would plunge the iron, the hot iron into that bucket of mineral oil and water. That's right. Very cool stuff.

Should we talk about that? Were you making a joke that I just missed? A reference? No. Okay. No, I didn't know if you were saying the etymology of the word quench was from smithing. Oh, maybe. And that when we quench our thirst, it's taken from that.

Maybe. It's possible. All right. No. I mean, smite, they think that the words smite and smith are from the same word. Right. Because smite means very biblical meaning or not meaning, but these are a lot in Bible times to hit something, right?

Yeah, to strike it, to smite something. That's right. That's what a smith does. Right. Should we talk about tools? I think so. One of the cool things about blacksmiths is that when you get good, you just start making your own tools.

Oh, man. Isn't that neat? Tools to make tools. Yeah. You got to start somewhere though. Yeah, you got to lay down a little bit of money first. But I saw this one blog post by a blacksmith who's like, look, if you're just starting out, just get the bare minimum stuff,

get some used things, see if you like it first, and then eventually when you get good, you can invest a little money, and then you can just start making your own stuff. Right, which is very cool. I did see there was one YouTube video that was like how to get going for less than $100. Oh, I'll bet, yeah. Some very basic stuff. Yeah.

So if you're going to be a smithy, you're going to need some things. It might be less than $100 to start. You're going to need a forge, which is the heat. There are different kinds. You know, the one that I saw that acts, this was sort of a, I don't know if it's old-timey, but it was actually using coal. And that's very appealing to the eye if you're watching on YouTube. It seems like the backyard smithy these days uses a gas-powered oven, a gas-powered forge.

Were they using coal or charcoal? Because there's a big difference. It was coal. Okay. I didn't know much about charcoal until this, we'll talk about it later. But it seems like these days the gas-powered forge is kind of what you use. They're not very big. It's sort of like a double size of a bread box because when you're making something,

you're not building a car out of iron. You're making a tool. You're making a dagger or an axe head. They're all kind of small, something you can just sort of stick in there. You're going to have your anvil, very key piece. Yeah. You're going to have a lot of other tools for the more finesse work, grinders and files and stuff like that.

And you're going to have a nice collection of hammers, of course. Yeah. You definitely, there's different hammers for different things. And like we said, hammering pig iron and wrought iron, people don't do that these days. So you're not using a sledgehammer. And so using like a little more finesse and precision to kind of strike what's called the work piece, whatever you're working on is called the work piece. That's one thing that really stood out to me watching some of these blacksmith videos,

is like, these guys do not miss. At least if you're at the level where you're doing close-ups of your work on video and posting them to YouTube, your hammer's not missing. It's going exactly where you want it to every time, which is pretty cool too. It is, but I also, and this is not to knock the Smithys, it seems like a bit of a forgiving craft and art. Sure. So where you can sort of like, if something didn't, if you did strike in it and it kind of did something you didn't quite like, you can change that.

Right. You can restrike it, you can reheat it. Yeah. But I'm sure there's a lot of trial and error involved when you're first getting started, you know. First, yeah, I'm sure too. And then, you know, as you keep advancing, you're figuring out new techniques and all that kind of thing. But like you were saying, the anvil is, it's pretty neat. Like, I didn't realize all the different parts to it.

Like anybody who's seen a Wiley Coyote cartoon can recognize an anvil and tell you, probably draw one from memory and you'd probably be pretty close. And that's a pretty accurate image of what an anvil does. But all the little different details from like the point on the front to the feet of it, all of those serve this kind of group of purposes that come up pretty frequently in blacksmithing. Yeah, so the anvil is super heavy. It is very hard, obviously. You don't want the anvil itself to be dented or start falling apart when you're swinging this heavy hammer on metal on this thing or on iron.

And so you also want it so it doesn't like just absorb the hammer blows too. So it's got to be the right amount of hardness. Can't be break in, can't be shattering. You've got a horn on the front. You talked about the pointy thing. That's what's on the front of it. And usually in all the anvils I saw when I looked them up to buy one just to have, although they were way too expensive,

it's got a little dip right before the horn where the horn juts out. So the horn isn't exactly level with the regular base of the anvil. It's down just a bit and it's not by accident. That's very much one of the big uses of the horn is that little step down. Yeah, that's one of the neat things about anvils is like each little detail has a purpose, a larger purpose that's hidden until you understand what you're looking at or what it does. What about those holes? There's like two holes in every anvil pretty much, one's round and one's square.

And the round one is called a Pritchell hole. And it is basically a hole so that you can punch holes into whatever work piece you're working on. I saw that if you're punching a hole, you actually want to punch it on the face of the anvil, which is at the top. You punch it on one side, almost all the way through. Flip it over, punch it on the other side, almost all the way through. And then you move it to the Pritchell hole and then that's when you widen it to the shape you want. So it just allows you to punch a hole all the way through without harming the face of your anvil really. Yeah, that was one of my favorite parts of the video I saw because that was where the axe head hole went,

where you would put the axe handle. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was like, how are you going to do that? And just to see it happen in front of your eyes, it was pretty awesome. And then what's the other hole, the Hardy hole? Yeah, the Hardy hole is actually square. With the D? Yes, H-A-R-D-Y.

Yeah. Yes, it's not hardy because it's very tough, although it is very tough. Sure. But it is a square hole, which sounds kind of intuitive, but it's not. And you can put tools in there that allow you, like you might stick something in there and then use that to then bend the hot iron around to make different bends and cuts and shapes and things. Yeah, I saw this one tool in a couple of different videos that fit into the Hardy hole. The Hardy hole is almost like a Dremel tool, right? So like there's all these different things you can put in that square hole that hold it in place.

But the difference between them is what tool is attached to that square peg. That's right. Square peg, square, square, peg. That's right. And one of the ones that I saw looked like a tuning fork. It's like two rods that are very close together. I saw that. And you could put like a hot work piece in between them and then, you know, bend it so you could make like an S-hook.

It's used for like very tight, creating very tight curves in the work piece. Yeah, it's very, very cool. Yeah. So give your tongs. Oh, and I think we should have mentioned too, the anvil, it doesn't have a sharp edge. Like the edge all the way around the main work base of the anvil is a little bit round. Because, you know, if you've got something super sharp and you're hammering away, it's going to make little creases in the iron. You don't want that.

I think the step is the sharpest edge of the whole thing, between the horn and the face, the top of it. Yeah, I think that's where you need it to be sharp. The other thing I saw that I thought was really interesting is when you buy an anvil, you want to actually fit it to a block of wood. And traditionally, people will use like a good tree stump of wood that doesn't split very easily. And like, man, you fasten it to that wood, that tree stump. And then you bury the tree stump whenever you can about three feet into the ground so that the anvil becomes part of the tree stump, becomes part of the ground. Yeah. So it distributes that extra energy that gets lost rather than back up at you down into the ground where it's absorbed, which I just find absolutely fascinating.

But you make it so well fastened to the stump that the stump of the anvil become basically one. Yeah, it's like the anvil is essentially connected to the earth at that point. So nice. This just, man, you just keep thinking of Thor and Led Zeppelin. I know all the things. JR Tolkien. The smithy, you got to have those tongs, and these are not like grilled tongs that you have on your back porch. These are those big, thick metal iron.

They look like, like, like gussied up nail clippers almost. And that's what you're going to use to put stuff in the forge and that fire and pull it out. It's funny here, Ed says that pretty much no one wears gloves. I didn't see that. I saw plenty of videos with people wearing gloves. I saw both. And I saw some where they didn't. I guess sometimes if you're working really near the heat, you might want your gloves on, but you might also want to have the hand feel during that finesse work. Yeah, because, and I think it's worth saying one more time that forge where the fire is, I mean, it is very small.

I saw as little as like a six by six inch, like little area of extraordinarily intense heat. So it's a small area of heat, but the heat that is there is so hot, it can turn iron white hot. So yeah, you want to not get too close to it. And even when you're wearing tongs, it's smart to wear gloves from what I saw. Yeah, we never really talked much about the fuel. Yeah. I said these days they power it with gas mainly. Back in the day, back in the day, they would use charcoal.

That was the first thing. And charcoal, apparently if you're going to be a Brooklyn hipster, you want to work with charcoal because that is the superior product and the superior fuel. But it's really messy. It's very wasteful. It's very wasteful. It's expensive. It takes a lot of wood to make charcoal. So then coal comes rolling around and there was a lot of coal and it was super cheap and they had to kind of rebuild their forges.

But coal, even though it has some impurities like sulfur and stuff in there, they basically kind of made the big switch to coal at a certain point in time. Yeah. And even better is if you can get your hands on coke, which is a derivative of coal, just like charcoal is a derivative of wood. It's just wood with the sap and the water burned out. So it's a really energy dense form of it. Coke is the same thing with coal. It's got the impurities generally burned out, so it's a pure energy dense form of coal. But both of them play a really important role in that they produce really high temperatures, but they also introduce a lot of that carbon that gets absorbed into the iron at those high temperatures, which produces better, harder, stronger steel.

Can you cook with that stuff? Can you cook with coke? Cook with coke? I don't know. Like in a Kamada egg type cooker? I don't know. That's one thing that I saw in one of these blog posts about different types of fuel. I think it was like the no BS, but they spell out the word BS, which I'm not going to say here, because they're blacksmiths. The no BS guide to different kinds of fuel.

They said one of the things to consider is what kind of environmental impact is your fuel having. Right. So that's a good question. If you're like, I'm not sure I should be cooking with this. Don't forget you're going to be in a small enclosed room that's your blacksmith shop with that same stuff. And you probably have a pretty high efficiency chimney, but some of it's still coming back. So that's definitely a consideration to think of your own health and the health of Mother Earth, who is absorbing the blows from your anvil. That's right.

You do need good ventilation in your workshop, eye protection. Sometimes if you really want to kick it old school, you might have one of those leather aprons, like leather face. And then your quench. And we talked about quenching. It's called a quench or a quench bucket. And that is the bucket with the water. And like you said, sometimes mineral oil these days where you'll plunge it in there just like on TV and in movies when it makes that great steamy sound and the steam rises everywhere. And they pull out a beautiful battle axe or longsword.

Yeah. Apparently, so it's not that surprising when you consider samurai, but the Japanese are really, really good at creating high carbon steel blades. And there's one guy named Goro, G-O-R-O, who is like, well, widely considered the greatest Japanese swordsmith of all time from back in the 13th century. So he can throw together a katana, no problem. No problem. Should we take a break? Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a break and talk a little bit about and get quite a bit wrong probably about techniques right after this.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slipdresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a cereal?

No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Ah, okay, I see what you're doing.

Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me.

Yep, we know that Michael and a different hot sexy teen crush boy band are each week to guide you through life step by step. Not another one. Kids relationships life in general can get messy. You may be thinking this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never ever have to say bye bye bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

All right, let the parade of misinformation begin. You know, these worry me more than other episodes that we do when it's something very technical and very specific. Cause these guys make battle axes. Yeah. And it's anytime it's a very specific craft or something that you haven't done like we haven't done. Right. You can research it and watch videos and do your best. But until you've actually done it, you can't get it a hundred percent right.

So I will say though, the videos help tremendously. Oh, for sure. If like this is even remotely interesting to you and hopefully it is if you're, you know, this many minutes, 33 minutes or so into this podcast that it is. Go watch some videos. There's a bunch of them on there. And I think you're going to be like, Oh, okay. I get what they were saying now. Oh, that makes sense forging a bearded battle forging a bearded X.

That's the one I've got one black bear forge. Oh boy. This giant man, the giant beard and a tiny little leather cap in his name is black bear forge. It's adorable. Yeah. He he the video I watched is called scarf theory and making chain, which we'll talk about that in a minute. But it's just amazing. So cool.

And like you said, I don't want to do it. I want to have a friend that does it. I want to come over to their house and watch them do it. Like, let's see if we can get John Hodgman into it. Yeah, Hodgman. He's got very strong forearms. He does freakishly like Popeye. All right.

So here's some of the techniques and what you're doing if you're a Smithy is you are shaping hot metal. That's what it comes down to. And this is where the temperature of the metal comes becomes really important because certain metals have to be at certain temperatures to do certain things. These days, like I said, if you've got your your gas powered forge, you can set that baby on whatever exact temperature you want. And it's not quite as it's still very impressive. But back in the day when they were using coal and charcoal, there was, I feel like much more intuition. And trial and error and actually looking at the color, the color temperature, because the metal will turn different colors at different temperatures. Right.

So there's white, hot, orange, hot, yellow, hot, red, hot, different kinds of gradients of orange and yellow and white, too. There's glowing white, which is the hottest. Those aren't just expressions people say. No, and that's, again, that's the etymology of blacksmith lingo basically that has made it into white. White, hot. Yeah, like red, hot. Those abs of yours are white, hot. Oh, wait, that was a different episode.

Yeah, that's right. So, but apparently blue, white, hot is the hottest of all, but you don't typically see that in blacksmithing. White, hot is about as hot as you get. And how hot is white, hot? White, hot from what I saw is 2,550 degrees Fahrenheit, which is super high and Celsius. Okay. Yellow, I think, is just below that. Yeah.

And then you've got orange. Right. And then you've got lame, red, hot, which is. So lame. Which is only 1,400 degrees. 760 Celsius. You can't do anything with red, hot. That's actually not true.

Some very, like very limited stuff, but at that point, the iron is, I mean, it'll probably bend a little bit. I saw a good old black bear forge was making some chain with what looked to be red, hot iron at the time. Okay. And he was bending it pretty good, but I mean, I'm not the best judge of color. He was making chain? Yes. Wow. I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna wait any longer.

This guy made a chain, a length of chain. Perfect. Each length was exactly the size of the last. Oh, God. He was making them like in threes and then connecting those threes to other threes and he was using the horn. Chuck, are you, are you about to. So satisfying. Climax or something?

No, it's just so satisfying. It, it touches these parts of my body. You know, it's not sexual at all. Right. You know what I'm saying? Oh, I know what you're saying. It's, it's, it's, I know exactly what you mean. Although I haven't seen it.

You never know what might happen. Right. But this guy, so you know the horn of the anvil, right? Oh, do I? He would make like, he would, he would bend the chain initially on kind of like a thick about the middle part of the horn. And then he would bend it even further, moving it a little up the horn. And this guy just so expertly put it exactly where he needed it to be. I think one of the things I like about Black Bear Forge Guy is that he doesn't seem the least bit pretentious.

I'm pretty sure he lives in Minnesota. He's, he's not wearing his little leather cap ironically. He just, he seems very helpful. He was born in that cap. He's making these videos to help. Yeah. I think you might be right. And with a white beard.

I think he was born with a white beard as well. Well, when you watch this bearded axe thing, what this guy does is he starts with a block of iron and then eventually makes an axe head. But he's hammering this thing out. He's using this little rolling tool and hammering that as he's kind of rolling it forward. And it's almost like, kind of reminded me of baking, like the way you would use a rolling pin to smooth out dough. And then when it came time to actually make the, the sharp part, I guess what he was doing was forge welding. And we're kind of jumping around, but this is one of the techniques. And it's also called fire welding.

And that's when you combine different grades of iron and steel and you're joining these things together and multiple shapes together. I think that's what was going on because what he did, he had this axe head and the, the sharp part, he split. And I was like, well, dude, what kind of an axe is that? That's crazy looking. I thought he messed up. But then he put some other kind of metal in between and would use this. And what I gathered, it's, uh, where is it? Flux?

Is that what it is? Flux. Yeah. Like sand or did it look like sand? Well, it was in a bottle and it looked like a little sandy chemical. So I guess that's what it was and he would heat it up and then spray this stuff on it and hammer it together. Heated up, spray some of this and hammer it until that metal becomes one. And the really, you know, the super specific metal that he needed for the sharp axe blade was melded with the rest of that iron.

Yeah. Where you couldn't even tell. It was just like they became one with one another. He was probably reinforcing the axe head with a stronger, um, a stronger type of iron. Totally. So there's slightly different carbon content. And then the outside was a harder kind. So it resisted surface deformities, but the interior stuff was, was strength, was strong.

So it resisted breaking probably, but he was making these two one. I saw a black bear forged you the same thing with the chains. He was, he was using a scarf weld where you make one end angled and then you make the other end that it's going to join to angled in the opposite direction. So they kind of fit tightly together and then he would heat it up and hammer it together and it just became one. But he used flux as well. And from what I could tell when you use flux like sand or borax, I think is something you can use. Um, it prevents that joint from oxidizing, which makes it a stronger, a stronger joint, a stronger seam rather than kind of a compromise seam. Yeah.

And it was also interesting to see how, uh, this guy would sometimes that block was out for quite a long time of hammering and shaping and hammering and shaping. And then it looked like when he got into the little more detailed work as it became an axe head, he would, he would put it in the fire and he would turn around very quickly and start hammering. You could tell he wanted to do it very fast. Right. And he would hammer it for like 10 seconds and then put it right back in the fire. Yeah. And then pull it out and hammer it really fast for 10 seconds.

So whatever he was doing at that point required a super, super, super hot piece of, uh, what do you call it? Ground piece? Work piece? Work piece. Yeah. But I mean, so most, most blacksmiths you'll notice in their shops, they set the forge and the anvil up within just twisting distance. Oh yeah. They're standing in one place, moving from one to the other so that you can lose as little heat as possible when you transfer it out of the fire.

You don't walk across your shop. No. You don't stop and like make a sandwich or anything. Uh, there's also drawing, which is, uh, drawing that metal out into a longer, thinner shape. Uh, you might be shaping something into a rod or a block into a blade like I saw. And that's sort of, um, it's sort of lengthening it without flattening it out. Right. Because you can also flatten it.

That's another thing that's called peening. Yeah. Um, there's also upsetting, which is the opposite of drawing where you shorten the length of iron or steel by hammering it. Right. And that's what happens when you make a nail, which you want to talk about making nails here? Yeah. I mean, we kind of mentioned earlier, you know, the, the foundation, I mean, there were things that were built with dovetail joints and corn cobs to keep log, logs together. And there were technologies like that.

But if you really want to talk about the building of, of the world, you got to talk about iron nails and how many millions and tens and millions of iron nails that were made in the world by hand, by people. Yeah. I mean, before industrialization, they were all made by hand and it's apparently harder to make them than you would think. I watched a video by a blacksmith named Nick Kimball on Instructables. And I guess his brother writes for Instructables and interviewed him and he's like a blacksmith at one of the colonial model farms. Yeah. I think maybe Mount Vernon, they didn't say. Oh, I bet that guy.

So he looks like it too. He looks like a cool dude. Um, but he, he showed how to make a nail and he says he can make one a minute and this guy is an advanced blacksmith. Like he has a job as a blacksmith. That's how advanced this guy is in the 21st century. And he can make, he can make one a minute. Apparently blacksmiths of your could make 10 to a dozen of them a minute. And it's very involved.

Like it's, you would, you actually have to make the tool first to make, to make the nails. So you take an iron bar, flatten that, punch a hole in it using your pritchle hole and a punch. And then you take a nail rod, little strips of, of the iron that's going to be nails. Um, heat it up, hammer a shoulder into it on the edge of the anvil so that there's like a, it's, it's narrower at the, in the, for the bulk of it. And then up top, it just kind of is a little wider and boxy. And then you put it into the hole of the tool that you made and then you heat it up and you hammer the head a bunch of times to flatten it. That's what you have to do to make one single nail and some blacksmiths in the days of your could make a dozen of those in a minute. That's how good they were at it.

Unbelievable. I would have charged so much for nails. It would have been astronomical. I would have been like, no, I will, you know, like, let's make you some chainmail instead. What do you need nails for? Let's do something cool. And they'd say, you know, I need to build a second story in my house. I'd be like, all right, it's going to cost you.

The Josh nail. Yeah. The Josh Clark special. Because it would not be fun to make nails for sure. No, but boy, they made a lot of them. They did. There are also some other techniques. There's bending.

We've kind of already talked about when you're creating curves and things. If you've mentioned the staircase irons, how they're, how they're twisted around. That is done with a square bar, which is a bar with a square hole in it. And that's placed over a square rod of hot iron. And then you turn that square. You basically sort of like that dremel you were talking about. You stick that hot thing into the hole and you twist it around and you create those little twists. Yeah.

I mean, every time it's a blacksmith tradition, you say, et voila. You got anything else? I don't have anything else. It's just, I know we got stuff not quite right, but hopefully the Smithies, hopefully our enthusiasm won them over. Yeah. Let's hope so. Are there coming after us?

Ignorance. And also there's like a ton that we didn't talk about. It's a really, I mean, this is a countless human thousands of year long body of knowledge that we just tried to do in 45 minutes and failed at that. But there's a lot to it. So if you're interested in it, go check it out. At the very least go watch some videos. And since I said go watch some videos, everybody, it's time for Listener Mail.

All right, I'm going to call this Olympic torch bearer. Okay. Hey guys, I was a torch bearer for the Winter Olympics and it was a lot of fun. The amount of logistical coordination that went into it was incredible. I was told four months in advance when down to the minute I'd be carrying the lit torch and it wasn't off by more than a few actually. A guy came to our hotel with a bunch of toys, vehicles and action figures and modeled exactly what would happen. That's so cool.

I had to be reminded by my handlers to ensure that I kept it very high, high enough so as to not light my hat on fire. The torch is pretty light but fairly top heavy. I'm sure we were wearing mittens to make it impossible for any of us to make any finger gestures even accidentally that could be seen by the world on the live feed. Did you think about that? Yeah. One term you didn't use that I thought you'd appreciate. When one torch bearer passes the flame to another, it's called the torch kiss.

We went through training and practiced just this part. On the street, we did a little dance after we kissed and then I and whoever just finished got back on the bus. As you mentioned, a guy took my torch and extinguished it right afterward and since it was still hot, they stored it in a rack on the bus. When we got back to the starting point, they removed the fuel cell and gave it back to me. Broke it in half. And that is from Matt Jones, we had quite a nice little exchange about this. He said he did get it through work but he was not a sea level executive.

He won it through a drawing at his work. Oh, that's totally great. Yeah. That's great. He might as well have gotten it from contributing to society as great as that is. Man, I got a thanks for that Matt. Also, I knew it was called the kiss. I thought I said it was the kiss and if I left that out, that drives me crazy man.

When there's a fact that I know that I failed to put into the podcast that somebody then comes and says, you left out this really awesome fact and I just dropped to my knees like the Liberty Mutual guy in the elevator and go, no. You know how much that bothers me when that happens to me? How much? None. Man, it's like it'll ruin my week. My week's just toast now thanks to Matt.

There's the difference between you and I. Well, if you want to ruin my week and have a neutral effect on Chuck's week, maybe even make it more positive, you can email us. Go ahead and type it out after that, wrap it up after that, spank it on the bottom and then send it off to stuffpodcastatihartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never ever have to say bye bye bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.