Stuff You Should Know - Capgras Syndrome: You Are Not Who You Think You Are

Episode Date: June 11, 2013

There is an extremely rare condition where the sufferer is convinced that everyone around him is an impostor posing as their friends and family. Learn about the neurology behind this strange and sad mental disorder in this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. I'm pretty sure the person with me is always is Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Cap grass beaboo. Yeah. I think it's Cap Grah. Because it's a Frenchman who was the first person to describe.

Jerry just called it crap grass. I know. We're all kind of screwed up. Yeah. And I'm not going to say cop bra the whole time. So we'll just say cap grass. That's obnoxious. Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. Like we're not in Quebec. That's right. Or Quebec. Right. This is basically our invasion of the body snatchers. Yeah. Episode.

Podcast. Yeah. That unless we do one on the invasion of the body snatchers. Well, it's kind of the deal though. We're talking today about a very, very strange and once thought to be very uncommon and rare disorder, um, a delusional disorder, a delusional misidentification disorder to be specific. Yeah. Where the sufferer believes that the people in his or her life, people very close to him

have all been replaced by imposters that they're there. Like I'm looking at you right now, Chuck. Yeah. You're just like Chuck and you're doing a great job with the voice and everything. But like, I don't want to say it and I don't want to look you in the eye, but like you're obviously not Chuck and what's going on. I think we all feel that about each other occasionally, but imagine like that all the time.

Yeah. Like how would you just not lose faith in the reality of anything if you thought, first of all, how are people, how are they coming up with great imposters like this? Sure. Who is they? Yeah. How are they doing this? Why you?

Is it just you or is the whole world? Impostors. Yeah. It's like there's a lot of really weighty questions involved with this and as a result, science has been trying to really figure out the mystery behind it and has failed thus far. Yeah. And you know, we, we already should say it's not only difficult on the person, but it's

difficult on the person being misidentified as well. Sure. And you don't really know hear a lot about that. I've read a bunch of articles on this and only one said, and don't forget, if someone, if your wife thinks that you're an imposter, it's really tough on you as well. Sure. Yeah. That is kind of overlooked.

Yeah. Very much so. Yeah. So this is actually kind of a new phenomenon as far as description goes. Yeah. Um, 1923, Dr. Kopgra and Dr. Reboul La Show, um, described Madame M, who believed that she had as many as 80 husbands. All of them the same looking the same, right, but they were all imposters and she never

could get close to him because, um, eventually they would just kind of leave and be replaced by a new one. And she was utterly convinced of this. And I'm sure at the time they thought, boy, this lady's just nuts. But then the more people did research, the more they found, and I couldn't find any good stats on how rare it is. I got it. I heard thousands and that means nothing.

So the, the one I saw, it was in 2006 or five, I believe the estimate was between 1.3 to 4.1% of all psychiatric patients have Kapgra. And you can probably say that if that's close, then that's probably close to the general population because if you believe that the people who are closest to you in your life are imposters and you're accusing them of such, they're probably going to force you to go seek psychiatric help. So that would probably be a pretty close statistic for the society at large. And where you really see it though is in Alzheimer's patients.

The statistic was between 2 and 30% of Alzheimer's patients possibly suffer from Kapgra or crab grass. Yeah. But isn't that just Alzheimer's? No, not necessarily. Alzheimer's, you know, that's, that can be forgetfulness, um, that can be disorientation. This is like, you're accusing your husband, your wife, your son, your daughter of being somebody else, somebody posing as them.

Right. Okay. That makes sense. So this is different than something we've covered face blindness before, right? We talked about it came up in something else, but yeah, maybe we did do a whole podcast on it. I'm not sure, but that is, uh, prosopregnosia and this is not prosopregnosia. That's when you, you can see your face over and over and over and still you just don't

know who it is. Right. In this case, you know, okay, that's Josh. I'm looking at him, I know that face, but, um, they, they've done studies with, uh, skin conduct, conductance. This is when they, they're basically measuring the amount of perspiration on your face. Right. Which is a, it's a measure of the limbic system being active, which is in turn a measure of

your emotions going off. Yeah. With the idea being that if, if you're sweating a little bit on the face, then that is a physiological or psychological cue that like, Hey, look at this picture of your mother. I will recognize that as my mother and maybe my face will sweat a little bit. Right. If you are what's called a normal participant, if you have pro-pagnosia, um, you will not recognize that picture intellectually, consciously, but your skin conductivity will go off.

So that means that the emotional cue is still triggered even though you don't know who you're looking at. Right. That's the opposite of studies of, um, Capgras syndrome. Yeah, they'll see a picture and they will not have, it's basically like they're looking at a picture of a complete stranger. Right. And, and they don't have the, yeah, they don't have that emotional response.

Right. Exactly. But they don't have an emotional response. Here's the thing. They recognize the face enough to know this is my dad. Yeah. They are rational enough. That's the other thing too.

Other than this, they're rational. Yeah. It's what's called a monothematic syndrome where you have one delusion and it's a whopper and it basically consumes your whole life. So they're rational otherwise and they're rational enough to say, okay, this is my dad I'm looking at, but I don't feel any kind of emotional stimulation from seeing my dad and I should. Yeah.

And because I don't, this is an imposter. That's what they think is going on. Yeah. One of the common things that the people with the syndrome will say is that like their soul is gone or their soul is missing. That's a different syndrome. No, no, no, that that's that's linked to Capgras because they'll recognize the other person.

Yeah. Okay. The person they're looking at is that's not my mother. That's not there. Right. I would sense my mother's soul. Right. So what they think then is that when we, this kind of proves that we make memories two

ways that are connected that we, we take in stimuli, right? Like visual stimuli. I'm looking at you. And at the same time, I'm looking at Chuck and I like Chuck. So I'm also kind of taking note that same memory that I'm forming of the visual representation of you also has an attendant emotion, happiness. I like you. Yeah.

So when I see you again, I should feel that same thing. Happiness. Oh, I'm glad to see Chuck. That is a full memory. Yeah. With Capgras, people who suffer that, they're missing the emotional aspect and they have the recognition and they, the VS Ramashan drawn, I think I said his name, right? He came up in the mirror neurons episode.

Yeah. This is brilliant genius dude. You see San Diego. Yeah. Go Aztecs. Maybe. I think so. Um, he, he said probably what's happening then is you have a secondary lesion, secondary

damage. Yeah. Where your, your right brain is very analytical and it checks your left brain. Which wants to explain everything away. And if that right brain analysis is damaged, then the left brain can do, go to whatever links it wants to, to explain away strange phenomenon. In this case, if you have that disconnect between the sensory input and emotional aspect of a memory, in conjunction with a loss of the right brain checking your delusions, then

the left brain is able to go off and say, Oh, well, it must be an imposter. Yeah. The emotional side wins out essentially as a explanation to sort of reconcile those two things. Yeah. Because it's missing. It's not deluded. The person is not delusional.

It's, there's an imposter. Yeah. You know, what's really weird is, um, another one of the characteristics sometimes is it can extend to animals and objects as well. Yeah. So it's not always just people. They can, you know, that's my dog, but it's not, I know that chair is not the original chair.

They came in here and replaced it with an exact replica. Um, and they're not hallucinating, you know, these, they're aware of all this stuff. Yeah. And I mean, imagine the paranoia that that would generate in you. Yeah. Like who moved the chair? Who replaced this chair? What's the deal?

And, um, they found that it's, it is comorbid with things like Alzheimer's and schizophrenia as well and other psychotic disorders. Yeah. So it's usually your, uh, spouse to, um, one article that said it's always your spouse is how it starts. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if that's quite right.

It, that seems a little willy-nilly to say every single time it starts with your spouse. So let's talk about some of the explanations that science has come up with, um, since it was first described in 1923, it was right in Freud's wheelhouse. Oh yes. So the psychoanalysts had their, um, had the first crack at it. They swung and missed. Um, they basically said that it was a repressed Oedipus or electric complex, right? Yeah.

And that, that was kind of poo-pooed pretty quickly. Um, they were saying that, you know, the, you're just trying to resolve guilt about your circumstances, um, identifying your parent as it looked alike. And then pretty quickly, scientists, you know, that probably doesn't have to do with repressed feelings in this case. Right. Done. Done.

Everybody kind of took his ball and went home. Yeah. Yeah. He's really been kicked to the curb. Has he? Yeah. Yeah, psychology, they've turned their backs on him. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, psycho dynamic approach. Oh, sorry. Freudians. Um, that was a psycho dynamic approach and that, that's like we said, it's kind of been poo-pooed. Well, that was the, the psycho dynamic approach was the one where it's repressed feelings. Oh, right.

Freudian approach was that you wanted to have sex with your mom. Right. So you, so you resolved that, the guilt from that by saying, um, you're not my mom. You're not my mom. You're an imposter. But I want to have sex with you and that's okay. I mean, the Glenn Miller version of the mood and I feel really guilty. Um, again, again, we should say that one was thrown out.

A lot of researchers think that it's a result of an actual organic cause, something physically wrong with the brain, which makes sense to me. Um, they look for lesions, um, cerebral dysfunction, signs of atrophy. And like you mentioned, it is also comorbid a lot of time with psychotic disorders, um, epilepsy, even Alzheimer's and you mentioned schizophrenia, which makes sense. I think bipolar is on there as well. Yeah. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take America's public enemy.

Number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute a 2,200 pounds of Mara water. Yeah. And they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs. Of course.

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And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops. Are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed, they call civil answer for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever

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That's right. We're two best buds who've been at it for more than five years now and we want to see you achieve your money goals and it's our goal to provide the information and encouragement you need to do it. We keep the show fresh by answering listener questions, interviewing experts and focusing on the relevant financial news that you need to know about. Our show is chock full of the personal finance knowledge that you need with guidance three times a week and we talk about debt payoff.

If let's say you've had a particularly spend-thrift holiday season, we also talk about building up your savings, intelligent investing and growing your income. No matter where you are on your financial journey, How to Money's got your back. Millions of listeners have trusted us to help them achieve their financial goals. Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to How to Money on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So, other doctors say, you know what, it might be a combination of these things like physical

and cognitive causes. Yeah, like you have some sort of organic damage, but then mentally you're rationalizing it inappropriately. Like you can't accept that you're delusional because of any sort of brain damage. You're projecting everyone else is an imposter, so that would be a combination of mental and physical. Again, it's your brain trying to explain something that doesn't quite add up in your head.

Yeah. So, what's clear is there's a breakdown in communication. There is. Somewhere in the brain, Ramesh Chandra and his partner, I don't want to just call out the star, but Hurstine and Ramesh Chandra did a paper in 97 that was pretty interesting. They consider it a problem of memory management. Yeah. Like you or I, if our brain is to be, if it's a computer, like it is a computer, right?

Sure. When we see somebody or meet somebody, we create a file on that person. And then when we encounter that person again, we access the same file and then add to it. But it's the same file. What Ramesh Chandra and Hurstine were proposing was that people who have copcra make a new file every time for the same person, but there's also, there has to be some sort of link between these files. I don't think that's necessarily an app description.

I think there are more onto it with, it's just missing, it's the same file, it's just missing something that the patient senses is missing. Right. There's a void there and they're saying, well, I'm missing something because you're an imposter and I don't really know you. Yeah. Like some sort of emotional identification marker. Right.

This is really interesting to me. They have studies that showed that blind people, they can actually extend to their voice of the person, but other times they've shown that they recognize them on the phone, but not in person. Yeah. That was a dude named DS that Ramesh Chandra. It can be both. He could, his was, the only modality is what they call it for, his, his delusion was visual.

Right. And when he saw his parents, his dad was not his dad and actually his dad was pretty cool. His dad one day, DS was a 30 year old Brazilian guy who got into a car accident and started suffering Capgross syndrome. And his parents started to get really worried, didn't know what to do. So his dad one day came in and declared that the man who had been replacing him as an imposter, he had sent him away to China and he would never return. Hey, that's pretty smart.

I'm your father and I'm back. And it worked for a couple of weeks and then it just went back. The guy became convinced that now the imposter is back. He had Capgross syndrome so bad that he came to believe that he himself was an imposter. Wow. And he asked his mother when the real DS returns, will you still love me and treat me as your friend? Can I still stay around?

And she said, I don't know who you are. So this guy thought everything, including himself was an imposter. He thought there were two Panama's that he'd been to recently, that there were two United States. Wow. There were doubles for everything. And when he talked to his parents on the phone, though, that he didn't suffer that delusion.

It was strictly. Would he say things like, dad, there's this other guy here pretending to be you. Yeah. No, he was very open about it. Oh, I don't know. He would like, he didn't hide it from what I understand, which is something that's probably healthy if you have Capgras syndrome, because there is, there have been instances of violence with Capgras syndrome.

Yeah. This one guy thought a robot had replaced his father, so he decapitated his father to look for the robot inside. A woman in a mental institution killed another patient because she thought that she was going to kill her double, her daughter's double. So she was actually protecting the imposter from somebody who she didn't necessarily think was an imposter. That is very interesting.

So as far as treating this, there's, you know, since it's pretty rare, there's not a lot of, you know, prescribed regular treatments. Sometimes it goes away. Does it really? Yeah. Sometimes if it's like a physical brain trauma, you can reestablish that connection and things start firing correctly again, and it just kind of disappears. I wonder when you come out of it, Chuck, like, do you feel like, wow, that was really crazy

what I used to think, or do you feel like all the imposters have left in all of my families back now? Oh, I don't know. That's weird. Yeah. Another thing that they say if it's linked to a mental disorder, sometimes it can be helped by medication that would also help that mental disorder. But they're really, for most people, there is no treatment and there is no cure.

I think it's just probably a long series of sessions on the couch. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But I mean, how do you forge trust that's, you know, in somebody when you, which is required to say, okay, it's me. Everyone's not imposters. I have a false belief when ultimately the closer you get to say like your therapist, the more likely you are to come to believe that they're going to be replaced by an imposter.

Yeah. This is a SAG condition. Yeah. So let's talk about some other SAG conditions too that are similar. I mean, it's a delusional misidentification syndrome. It also falls under the umbrella of reduplicative para amnesia. Oh, wow. Yeah.

It's a mouthful. So another similar one is the Fregoli system. It was named after Leopoldo Fregoli. He was a quick change artist and that leads you to believe that people around you are people in disguise. So not replacements, but hey, I know that you should be my dentist, but you're really my sister in disguise as my dentist. Yeah.

It's like over recognition. Yeah. Like everyone in your life that you see and interact with on a daily basis, like your, your dentist or somebody on a subway or whatever is actually somebody very close to you dressed up in disguise. Cotard syndrome. Yeah. That is a belief that you are missing body parts or you are emotionally dead and sometimes

they think like my heart doesn't beat or I don't have bones or I don't exist any longer. Yeah. And it's not, I mean, these are people that really feel this way. It's pretty much like the psychological manifestation of an existential crisis. Yeah. Like you think your brain is rotting inside of you and like you're dead. I mean, you don't feel anything. What about intermittent morphosis?

This one's odd. It's kind of like, um, it's kind of like copgrass syndrome, but it's, it's more complete. Like the, and it's not imposters, it's people close to you switching. Right. Like just your brother's now your father. Really and physically the whole ball of wax. Like apparently you see them like when you're interacting with your father, you see and think you're interacting with your brother if they've switched.

Wow. Yes. Wow. Indeed. The, the thing about this though, and you kind of get this from the Ramachandran paper, which I strongly recommend reading. It's, it's only like nine pages. Yeah.

It's pretty interesting stuff is every once in a while he comes, he pulls back and is like, can you eff him, believe the brain? Yeah. It is incredible what it, what it can do and when it malfunctioned, man, can it ever malfunction? But he's pointing out that like through these really, really rare cases, um, you can start to get a glimpse into how we form memories and how we retrieve memories and, and to better understand human consciousness through, you know, these, these very unique and usual patients. Yeah, I'd like to think at the end of our run, you know, in 50 years, we're going to

have a nice body of work on the brain for people to, to pick and choose and, uh, you know, from like alien hand to capcara to how memories are formed and how you taste and myths on the brain. Yeah. It's just pretty amazing stuff. How do you taste? I taste delicious. It's, it's our, I think it's probably our favorite topic.

Did you just say 50 years? Yeah. Man. Hey, I'm going for you. Have you seen the imposter? Uh, yeah. I think I talked about it before too. It's good.

Documentary. Good documentary. Go check that one out. Yeah. Uh, and you got anything else on capcara? No, sir. Okay. Capcara, crabgrass, capgrass, coup de gras, butter, all of those things.

Type them into the search bar, howstuffworks.com and it may or may not bring up this article, at least a couple of them will. Uh, and since I said, um, search bar, it, let's have a, uh, let's take a message break. The war on drugs impacts everyone. Whether or not you take drugs, America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute a 2,200 pounds of marijuana.

Yeah. And they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that and I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss y'all. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty.

It starts as guilty. The cops. Are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jack move or being robbed, they call civil asset for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

How's that New Year's resolution coming along? You know, the one you made about paying off your pesky credit card debt and finally starting to save a retirement. Well, you're not alone if you haven't made progress yet, roughly four in five New Year's resolutions fail within the first month or two, but that doesn't have to be the case for you and your goals. Our podcast, How to Money can help. That's right.

We're two best buds who've been at it for more than five years now and we want to see you achieve your money goals and it's our goal to provide the information and encouragement you need to do it. We keep the show fresh by answering listener questions, interviewing experts and focusing on the relevant financial news that you need to know about. Our show is chock full of the personal finance knowledge that you need with guidance three times a week. And we talk about debt payoff.

If let's say you've had a particularly spend thrift holiday season, we also talk about building up your savings, intelligent investing and growing your income. No matter where you are on your financial journey, How to Money has got your back. Millions of listeners have trusted us to help them achieve their financial goals. Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to How to Money on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And now, listen to me.

Yes, buddy. I'm going to call this one email from a former Mormon, former Mormon, former Mormon, former Mormon. Hey, guys and Jerry, let's need to podcast some marriage. Want to give you some information on Mormon marriage, though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer practices nor supports the secular act of marrying multiple spouses. I mean, men can still be sealed to multiple women.

And I'll try and explain ceiling to you, but even though I was raised a member of the church, the details are a little bit fuzzy because he's been out for a little while. The ceiling is related to marriage and takes place at the same time. It is a separate ordinance where marriage ensures that a couple receives all the legal benefits promised by the government. Ceiling ensures all of the religious benefits promised by the Lord. That was a good preacher. Thank you.

One benefits that I can remember are, one, the sealed persons will be together for all time and eternity, and two, the sealed persons will enter into the highest level of heaven of the three. That's just three levels. Okay. I found out a man can be sealed to multiple women when my parents went through their divorce. Even though they went through the legal process of divorce, they never had their ceiling nullified. When my dad remarried, he was sealed to my stepmother and to my biological mother at the same time.

Later on, when my mom remarried, she had to nullify her ceiling to my father because women are not allowed to be sealed to multiple men, only men to multiple women. Furthermore, my new stepfather was sealed to his late wife when he married my mother and he still is to this day. My intentions aren't to bash the church in any way, but the fact that men can be sealed to multiple women is a little known fact to most people inside and outside the church. Though the church's practice of polygamy doesn't bother me anymore, educated consenting adults should be allowed to be with the ones they love, in my opinion, and that's his opinion.

I am bothered by the fact that they don't inform people of their policy on being sealed to multiple spouses. That's all I've got, guys, on Mormons and Marriage. No longer a member of the church, but I still find the religion and culture very fascinating. A podcast on how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints works would be amazing, and that is from Ethan Clark. Thanks, Ethan. Ethan Clark, my long lost brother.

And we've been asked by many Mormons and members of that church to do one on their religion. We've got a whole queue of ones that we have to do that's kind of piling up. It's like before we hit the 50-year mark, it's just like one after the other. The never-ending cycle. Well, we'll add it to the cycle, the never-ending cycle, starring at Trey U. If you want to suggest a podcast and accompany it with a story or some outsider's former insider analysis, we want to hear it.

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stuff that'll piss you off. The cops, are they just like looting, or are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jack move or being robbed, they call civil acid for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our favorite podcast, Therapy for Black Girls, is celebrating five years of empowering conversations as we continue to make mental health and wellness accessible.

In addition to weekly chats with some of your favorite mental health professionals and other experts, we've flipped through the pages of your favorite romance novels with author Tia Williams, checked in with Grammy Award-winning artist Michelle Williams, and talked hurdles in sports, motherhood, and mental health with Olympic athlete Natasha Hastings. From our team to your podcast app, join us in celebrating five years of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Check it out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.