Stuff You Should Know - Carl Sagan: American Hero

Episode Date: December 9, 2015

Carl Sagan was the world's first mainstream media super scientist, capapble of breaking down complex ideas for the common folk. But what made him tick? Billions and billions of great ideas. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass

and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say. Bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Noel. The stint of Noel is winding down, sadly.

It's such an awkward thing. Are you having Noel here? No, right, the stint of Noel. Right, yes. Oh, you mean the wording? Yeah, the wording's fine. All right, how you doing? I'm fine, just like that wording. I'm sleepy.

Why about? I've just been staying up late, writing until one and two in the morning, like a dope, like a 17. Oh, yeah? Yeah. A manifesto? No, no, just staying up too late, typing. That's neat, do you drink wine while you type?

Last night, it was bullet bourbon. Yeah, and then you're just like, I'm not typing words correctly anymore, and then it's time for bed. You get on a roll, and then you look up, and it's two a.m. Nice, man, I'm glad to hear that. 6.30 rolls around, and here we are.

That's awesome. That's great, so your creative juices are flowing? They're flowing, baby. You know who else's juices were flowing, and still flow through this universe? Carl Sagan. He was, he was a creative science type. Yeah.

And it made him kind of controversial. Man. It also made him beloved. Beloved, and I think one of like the precursors to what we do, you know? Mm-hmm. In fact, there's a quote on him being an explainer, which I thought was very cool.

Which is the geekiest term ever, but it's a pretty, it's a good term. Science explainer. Yeah, he said, I think I'm able to explain things because understanding wasn't entirely easy for me. Some things that the most brilliant students were able to see instantly, I had to work to understand. I can remember what I had to do to figure it out.

The very brilliant ones figured out so fast. That sounds familiar. They never see the mechanics of understanding. Yeah. So I really identified with that, I'm like, man, that's kind of what we do, you know? We work really hard at understanding this because we're not experts.

And he wasn't an expert on one thing. He covered a lot of, that's what made him unique. Right. A lot of different facets of science. Yeah. Which you don't see much. No, you don't. I mean, it does pop up here and there,

but if you think about the people who are like that, like Jared Diamond is a really good current example. Neil Tyson. Screech. No, that's Dustin Diamond. Oh, okay. Jared Diamond, man, I don't even remember what he's trained in.

He's just such a generalist. Yeah. But he wrote like Guns, Germs and Steel. Oh, that guy, yeah. Yeah, he's got a little Robert Bork beard. Really? Good guy. He's one, Neil deGrasse Tyson has definitely become one.

Yeah. Although he's still very much an astrophysician, right? Yeah, but he's sort of talked about a lot of times in terms of being like Sagan and not just because he rebooted Cosmos, which was Sagan's show, but he's just the face of science. Like he's the go-to guy. Sure.

I mean, like he was the obvious choice for Cosmos because he was already so much like Sagan following in those footsteps for sure. There's other guys who's like Brian Green as a science explainer, Bill Nye as a science explainer. Yeah, I love Bill Nye. They're definitely out there for sure, but you make a good point that Sagan was one

of the originals, if not the original, but the idea that he was somebody who was willing to draw parallels from different disciplines in science or bring them together to create something approachable for people to kind of invigorate people's love of science. I think it's amazing. Yeah, it made him beloved. It also just made him not reviled.

This is not the right word, but he was definitely criticized in the scientific establishment. In parts for sure. Some people in the scientific establishment loved him and some were like, you're not doing much real research. You're just sort of a face guy. And I poo poo that entirely and say

that he did a lot for science. And people like him are necessary and I value their work. Okay, you're taking a stand, huh? Yeah, man, Carl Sagan's amazing. He's one of my heroes. Yeah, he's like, I watched Cosmos when I was 10 years old. I have never seen it. Oh man, it was great.

I mean, it was a PBS show that had tens of millions of viewers. No, I know. Millions and millions. Yeah, so that's your Sagan? Yeah, and you know what, he told Johnny Carson he never said billions and billions. He said billions upon billions, right?

I never heard it. There's a supercut on YouTube of all of his billions, millions and trillions from Cosmos cut to with a like hip hop music bed. And is that a glorious dawn? I don't remember the name of it. There's one, there is a video, a song that somebody created with him, a supercut of him.

It's called Glorious Dawn, it's pretty great. Well, I never heard billions and billions in there. There's a lot of billions and millions and trillions. He loved those words, but he said, I never specifically said billions and billions. And I couldn't, I didn't hear it either, so. He's a misunderstood genius. Yeah, it became, I think Carson did it first

or maybe it was starting out live. And then that just became the thing, billions and billions. Because he is a weird little dude for sure in a lot of ways, you know, it's easily parody but he also seemed to have a really good sense of humor about himself at least and in general. He smoked grass, he thought grass was far out. Man, we just vaulted back in time with that one.

Yeah. He smoked the marijuana grass. Making it contemporary. He was on the pot. Yeah, he did, he liked the smoke weed. And in fact, I have a quote here from, he wrote an essay. The quote reads in Wowie's alley.

Best Pavement album, by the way. He wrote an essay in. I don't know about that. Oh yeah, what's your favorite? I think. Slanted and enchanted. Yes. The first one.

Although Cricut Rain, Cricut Rain was pretty good. No, I've never seen him more interested in what we're talking about. It's funny in college, we used to have a saying, it's not a matter of which album are we gonna listen to next. It's which Pavement album are we gonna listen to next. See, you just put down a t-shirt. Yeah, so anyway, Sagan wrote an essay in marijuana

reconsidered and here is one of his quotes. He said, the cannabis experience has greatly improved my appreciation for art, a subject which I had never much appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artists, which I can achieve when high, sometimes carries over to when I'm down. This is one of many human frontiers,

which cannabis has helped me traverse. Is that Kermit the Frog doing Carl Sagan? That was sort of Kermit-y, but he, yeah. I mean, that's not, it doesn't define him or anything, but yeah, he liked to smoke the pot and he liked to get out his little tape recorder and talk about stuff. Put on eternal neck?

Yeah. With nothing else? It was the 60s and 70s, of course he was. And I think the 80s and maybe even into the 90s. No, that's true. So, well, let's, I guess, let's go back to the beginning. We've done some pretty good teasing here, right? Yes.

We're talking about a human being. There's no place better to start at the beginning than with their birth. 1934, Brooklyn, New York. Yeah. His mother was, Rachel was a garment industry manager and apparently, I think his dad was.

Oh yeah, yeah. But his mom was overbearing. Yes, mom was overbearing. Sorry, dad was a Ukrainian immigrant Samuel who worked as a garment industry manager. Because in 1934, they pride in hire women to do jobs like that, which is really stinky. So, and we, it's not like we've met the lady

or anything and can report that she's overbearing. The idea that she's overbearing comes from this long standing image of her. She had very high hopes and high expectations and aspirations for Carl. Very well may have made the man. Yeah. You know, moved to New Jersey after a little while

and was voted the class brain at Raway High School. And I thought this is interesting in this, what article is this in New Yorker? Which one, why Carl Sagan's truly replaceable? Yeah, or Smithsonian. It's by Smithsonian Joel Achenbach. It was a great article though, but they tracked down in 1953,

a questionnaire from high school that he had to fill out on his own character traits. All right. And Sagan said he gave himself low marks for vigorousness, like with sports, and average rating for emotional stability. And the highest ratings for being dominant and reflective. I'm gonna start using that vigorousness.

Yeah. Man, I worked out this morning I'm so vigorous. So that's not just a piece of paper they dug up Chuck. That's from his archives. Yeah. Which were actually sold to the Library of Congress by his widow. What is his widow's name, Ann?

Andrewian, one of his, well, yeah, his widow. Right. But he was married three times. Right. And Ann sold the papers or supplied the papers for an honorarium, I guess, to the Library of Congress. And the Library of Congress got that money from Seth MacFarlane.

Yeah. So basically Seth MacFarlane bought Carl Sagan's papers and donated them to the Library of Congress. Yes, that's why. That's pretty cool. That's why it's called the Seth MacFarlane collection of the Carl Sagan and Andrewian archive. Right.

Had to put his name on there. Well, I mean, sure, why not, you know? No, it's fine. He's a huge fan of his work and he's the one who rebooted Cosmos. Right. And genuinely, like, I mean, I gotta say, like, whatever you have to say about Seth MacFarlane,

there is plenty to say about Seth MacFarlane. He has, he proved himself a true fan of Carl Sagan and a rich guy, too. I've always liked a family guy. So I don't have anything bad to say about him. What have you seen, American dad? No, I never got into that, actually. It's okay.

Yeah. It's not family guy, but it's definitely just totally different. Gotcha. 798 boxes of stuff, of archival material. The guy loved to log every conversation he ever had and every thought that ever entered his brain, mainly through cassette tape.

Right. But I guess that was transcribed by other folks. Yeah. Apparently, that's Joel Achenbach says that his writing style was so conversational because he didn't write. He dictated into a dictaphone. And then it was transcribed, basically.

Basically, he was like the Hunter S. Thompson of science. Yeah. Remember Hunter T. had like the real the real, he'd wear around his neck? When one is high on marijuana, it is a buzz kill to type. And actually, that's funny. We bring up Hunter Thompson. Hunter Thompson loved acid.

You know who else loved acid? Timothy Leary. You know who hung out with Timothy Leary? Carl Sagan. Yeah. Timothy Leary was trying to get Sagan to advise him on how to build an interstellar arc because Leary just totally lost his stuff by this time, right?

We should do a show on him. Oh, yeah. I'm surprised we haven't. That'd be crazy. Let's do it, man. Yeah. We should. We should do one on the Mary Pranks, there's a whole thing.

Just basically redo the electric Kool-Aid acid test. Totally. That'd be a good episode. But Leary, at a mental institution, because he'd been popped with a bunch of acid, I think, had a visitor in Carl Sagan and Frank Drake of the famous Drake equation. And they came by to say hi.

And Leary was like, seriously, you guys have to help me design this. And they were like, the closest star is too far away, you kook. Yeah. This isn't going to work. And Leary said he sensed that they had some sort of neural blockage.

That's why they couldn't think like he could. Yeah. Man. So that was Carl Sagan, Timothy Leary's story. But I think they stayed in touch. Oh, I'm sure they did. So young Sagan is his life kind of changes when he goes to the World's Fair in 1939.

He was just five years old. You remember whose World's Fair that was? Was it? No, I don't. Was it Chicago? Eddie Bernese's. Oh, yeah. That was the one.

Wow. The one that changed everything, including Carl Sagan. Boy, that's a big one. Yeah. So Sagan goes to the World's Fair. And it was sort of a great time to be a young kid interested in science, because in the late 30s and 40s and 50s, it was like everyone was captivated by the future.

Right. There's this idea that science could do anything. Yeah. Anything and very soon would. It was really exciting. And it was just a great time to be into it. It's the, what's his name? Oppenheimer?

Mm-hmm. No. Abulhabba? Oppenheimer. No, I'm talking about the article right now. Oh, Ahmbach. You're like, yeah, Oppenheimer. Oh, this guy.

Yeah. I'm the, I'm become death. That's what I thought you were talking about. In the article, he makes a great point about just that time period and how exploratory everything was really from then, like through the 1970s. That was a great like 40 year period in science where basically there was funding and like anything's

possible, we can do anything we want until they started to, you know, I guess disprove things here and there. Right. And actually, what's interesting is there's a corresponding boost in technology from that era too. And a lot of people point out that all of the stuff from about 1975 on is actually built on the backs of the stuff that was built in the 40 years before that from about

1935 to 1975. Yeah. And ever since then, we've had a technological plateau. Yeah. It's really interesting and you don't think about it. You're like, well, no, I mean, we have iPhones now. It's like, yeah, iPhones are all, they're a combination of different stuff that was first discovered or invented 40 or

more years ago. Yeah. And basically everything's like that. We're in a slump right now. So it was not only a time where they thought science could do anything, science was doing just about anything. Yeah. And we'd since hit a plateau.

And the author described him, I thought it was a great description, Sagan as a nuanced referee, because a really cool thing about Sagan was he was very grounded in science and proof and facts. But he wasn't just a square and a skeptic, although he was a skeptic. And square. Yeah, but he was also like, he wanted to find life on

other planets. Sure. And he didn't shut things down. No. He was all about the discussion of everything as long as you still did the research and were grounded in facts. As a matter of fact, and he did not believe in UFOs. He did not think that UFOs were extra

special spacecraft. But in 1969, he mounted a conference on UFOs in which everyone apparently had their say. All sides. Yeah. It wasn't like we're mounting a conference on UFOs. You can come so the rest of us can poo poo your ideas and beliefs.

It was come and share your position on it. That's enormous. That in and of itself is worth remembering the person for. But this was 1969 before you'd even become like a household name or anything like it. Yeah. I like to think we do that. And we still get emails.

So we got one today for people that said it's dangerous to even mention other schools of thought. That's dogmatic. Yeah. And I just, I don't agree. That's dogmatic and close-minded. And don't even bring, don't even email us with that crap. Yeah.

Just don't, don't even bother because we're going to, we're going to make fun of you on the air. Yeah. Because that's not what our show's about. Even if we don't believe something, we like to throw all sides out there because I think discussion is healthy no matter what. Sure.

That's just me. Even when we were mocking crop circles, we still like talked about crop circles. Did we not? It's not like we just pretended like there wasn't such a thing as crop circles. That's right. And we have Carl Sagan, thank for laying that golden

path in front of us. So you want to take a break? I don't want to, but we have to. We need to, man. Yeah. OK. All right. We'll be right back.

Oh. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and nonstop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips? Was that a cereal?

No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper, because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s.

Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s, called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Ah, OK, I see what you're doing.

Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place, because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, god. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS, because I'll be there

for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one.

Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

All right, so we've been beating around the bush here. Have we? Let's talk about, well, not really. We've been getting into it, but let's talk about some of the things that Sagan, he wasn't just some Johnny come lately. He had a degree upon degree. I think he had billions and billions of degrees. Well, he had an undergrad degree.

He had his master's. He had his PhD. He was well-versed in a lot of realms of science, but his big thing was astronomy. Right, he had two degrees in undergrad and master's in physics and then a doctorate in astronomy. And he did a little stint at Harvard. Didn't get tenure.

So he's like, I'm out of here, and Cornell is like, you come to us, and we will treat you like a god. And they did, and they settled in at Cornell and set up his own lab, right? The laboratory for planetary studies. Yes. And that was when he really started to get going. He was doing side work for NASA at the time as well, doing

consulting. He did that throughout his whole career. Formulas, that kind of stuff. When NASA is picking your brain about the Apollo mission, you're doing pretty well for yourself as a scientist. But so he had this potential to really go as science-y as he wanted to with this stuff. And he did in some ways, in a lot of ways, with his

consulting with NASA. But he also kind of pushed NASA into humanity's direction as well. Like the Voyager disks. That's a really great example of it. Like he talked NASA into including disks on Voyager 1 and 2. Are you talking about the golden record?

Yeah. That are basically like, here's some stuff that represents humanity and Earth. Yeah, pretty much like if we ever do find life on Earth, we need to have something to offer them to represent us. There's life elsewhere, you mean? Yeah. What I say, life on Earth.

Yeah. There's life on Earth. It's pretty much documented as fact. Life out there, extraterrestrial life. He said we needed to present ourselves in what Earth is like and what humans are like. So he included 115 images representing the diversity of life and then sounds basically like his wife.

Literally, this is pretty out there. I don't know if marijuana had anything to do with it. I think so. Yeah, his wife, Anne, she created her own sounds for the project. Basically, she meditated and then thought, told the story of the universe by thinking it with her brain. And then those brain waves were translated into music.

And she said, my mind also wandered to my love of my husband. So that was translated. So they blasted. That was her message that they blasted out in space, which is pretty far out. Right. But awesome.

Messages of love. Sure, man. It's pretty neat. He wasn't afraid to show his tender side. No. No, no, he definitely wasn't. He was vulnerable in a lot of ways. And also on those discs, there's, I believe, etchings of

a man and a woman. I think it's etched on the disc. And they're like laser disc size. They're super retro and made of gold, which is pretty cool. And then there's basically a depiction of where Earth is in the Milky Way, I believe. So it's basically saying, we're here. If you ever find this.

Yeah. And then, of course, Voyager, one, I believe, got lost and awakened and became a sentient and then became a god to some beings, remember? And I think Star Trek 1, the first movie. I never saw those. Veager. You never saw any of the Star Trek movies?

Dude, I've never seen one episode of the TV show. I've never seen one episode of The Next Generation. Yeah, no. The only Star Trek thing I've ever ingested was... Our apologies to Will Wheaton, by the way. Was that first movie that J.J. Abrams did? I saw that. I saw the second one of that.

I also saw, I think, Star Trek, maybe one, two, and three. And in one of those, there's this god, Veager, who's like this artificial intelligence. And they finally meet Veager and realize that the oil is blotted out and it's really Voyager 1, the space probe. Wow. That's pretty cool. I thought it was pretty neat, too.

I'm not a Trekkie by any means, but they were still entertaining movies. I just never got into it. I was always a Star Wars guy. Not that they're mutually exclusive, but I don't know. It just didn't grab me. You know, who would have predicted that we go off in a Star Trek tangent and the Carl Sagan episode?

Although I think I've told the story of working on a commercial with William Shatner. You have. Didn't he, like, bend you over a car and pretend to arrest you? No, that was punch. Hey, Shatner was TJ Hooker. It could have happened.

Yeah, he was great, though. He was awesome. He loved being William Shatner. Oh, yeah, man. You can tell that guy wears it like a suit. Yeah, he was awesome. Very nice guy. So we're getting off track again here.

Sagan was sciencey. There was actual science to stuff. As a matter of fact, the idea of the greenhouse effect is rooted partially in his work. Yeah, I mean, that had been around since the late 19th century, but he looked at like a planet like Venus and said, you know what? Venus is really hot.

And I think, why? It's because this greenhouse effect. And then because of that work, people started thinking, well, maybe Earth has a greenhouse effect going on, too. Right. It really opened the door for that line of thought. It did. And he's correct.

Earth definitely does have a greenhouse effect. And it's problematic. Correct. Another one that he's widely cited for is the fate young son paradox. I don't know if he was the one who first pointed this out, or if he just kind of built upon it. And it's still not fully solved yet.

I think so. He and George Mullen figured this out. I'm pretty sure, yeah. So the idea is that Earth, early on in its history, was a ball of ice. But problematically, there was also some liquid water on Earth, too. It wasn't all ice.

This doesn't make much sense, because the sun, as it stands now, is just about enough to keep Earth from being a frozen ball of ice. But back then, when Earth was mostly a frozen ball of ice, the sun was only at 70% of its luminosity, or lumosity. Luminosity. One of those. Luminosity, right?

Yeah, sure. That it is today. And so it doesn't make sense that there should be any liquid water on Earth. And it's called the faint young sun paradox. And I believe they figured out, or they, Sagan and Mullen, said, oh, well, it's the greenhouse effect. Yeah, and I don't think they ever fully settled on that.

No, still, it's outstanding. Yeah. They think it might be a combination of that and some other stuff. That's right. What else did he do? He looked at Titan, Saturn's moon, at one point, and said, you know what?

I think there's organic molecules up there. And that's why it looks red. And he was right. Yeah, he went, ta-da. Yeah, so I mean, he wasn't afraid to throw a wacky hypothesis out there. And that did not do him any favors in the scientific community either.

No, because there is a definite arrogance associated with throwing out the hypothesis and not doing the work, leaving it to other people to do the work. And then you still get the credit for throwing the hypothesis out there. Yeah, it's one of the main reasons why Sagan was highly criticized by some people in the scientific community.

Yeah, there's, in the Smithsonian article, they say there's sort of an unwritten rule among scientists. Thou shalt not speculate, thou shalt not talk about things outside your immediate area of expertise. That's a big one that he transgressed. Yeah, he was all over the place. And thou shalt not horse around on late-night TV talk shows. Yeah, with Carson.

Yeah, he was on Carson two dozen times over a couple of decades and was, like I said, sort of the Neil deGrasse Tyson. He was the go-to when anyone in the press needed anything for television. He was the guy and... Anything that had anything even remotely to do with science. Even if I had to do a theology and somebody wanted a science's opinion of theology,

go to Carl Sagan. And so from Sagan's, at his point of view, he's just furthering science. What's the problem? From the other scientist's point of view, it's like it makes it look like Carl Sagan is trained in everything from astrophysics, which he was, to theology and biology and anthropology

and everyology in between. And he wasn't. True, there's some professional jealousy too, you know? I think you know how it is. Like he's getting all the press and other folks are stuck in a lab doing what they think is the real work. So I kind of get it in a way,

but I just think that people like Bill Nye and Tyson and Sagan are hugely necessary. Sure. You know, you gotta have a face out there furthering it. You definitely do. You know? And you gotta have a media outlet like Parade Magazine to put that face on.

That was his go-to for sure. Oh, was he in there a lot? Oh, yeah. It was... That's the Sunday insert, right? Yeah. And that was kind of the big joke is that he stopped publishing in academic journals

and started publishing in Parade Magazine. And if you remember in our Nuclear Winter episode... Yeah, he was... Did he completely think of that? No. He just furthered it. He was part of a group that was organized that basically said like,

if you guys start setting off nuclear bombs, it's not gonna be this thing that just ends. Like there's going to be this thing called Nuclear Winter. And they hadn't done all the science yet before he went and wrote an article in Parade Magazine and told the world about Nuclear Winter. And then the opinion of the scientists he was working with like really undermined their case

because it sensationalized it. Yeah, but what it also did was it got your average Joe thinking about nuclear war and the Cold War and maybe we shouldn't be zooming toward our own demise at 100 miles an hour. Agreed, man. And that's the big back and forth about Sagan's legacy. Yeah.

Or the actual work he did too. Yeah, and you mentioned the theology. He was famously spiritual agnostic. He was a spiritual agnostic is how he defined himself. Yeah, he didn't classify himself as atheist. No, and the reason why true to Sagan's own way was that he could not scientifically prove that there was not God.

So he said, how can I call myself an atheist? Yep. Which is pretty cool. And actually he's the guy supposedly that coined the term extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. That's what I hear. Does that go back to him?

So he's like skeptics love the dude. Oh yeah. He's the father of the skeptic. But I think he, I don't know, I think he gives skeptics the good name. Sure, but if you want to prove your bones to how hardcore a skeptic you are, you criticize Carl Sagan in the skeptic community.

Oh yeah. You can really show that you're a super skeptic. Right. Sagan was a milk toast as far as skeptics go. Yeah, because he would indulge other lines of thought. Right. But still require proof, but he wouldn't just shut it down right out of the gate.

So we will get back to Carl Sagan right after these messages. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it. And now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it.

It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and nonstop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist?

So leave a code on your best friend's beeper, because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear.

And you won't have to send an SOS, because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy.

You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say, bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, Chuckers, we're back. Yes.

So, um, there was one thing that Carl saying and he would poke fun at himself. He never abandoned it was this idea that possibly maybe, just maybe, um, there was intelligent life out there. Yeah. And, um, I think he wanted there to be for sure. You know, he helped disprove or set the conditions against life being out there for sure. Like for example, he suggested that on Mars, the shifting features of Mars were a result of dust storms. And it turned out he was right, but those dust storms also basically said,

there's probably not life on Mars. Yeah. Just from that reason alone, those horrible dust storms, right? Yeah. And he, um, actually, he wanted to pull it surprise for some of his work. I think he wrote more than a dozen books. But, uh, one of the things he wrote was, uh, contact the novel. Not, uh, you know, he was totally into sci-fi and wrote, you know,

the movie, uh, contact that, uh, McConaughey and Jody Foster. That was based on his novel. And of course that movie was about sending signals into outer space, trying to find life. So you could tell the guy, it was something he loved to talk about and write about. Oh yeah. But he also loved it, uh, like actually that, that kind of research. Yeah. Which is totally up his alley.

Like SETI, um, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence is, is evidence-based and science-based search for extraterrestrials. Right? Yes. That was, that's Carl Sagan through and through. That's just totally him. He was, um, he wanted to believe in extraterrestrial life, but he needed proof to believe in it really. Yeah. He just couldn't make that jump to just saying, yes, they exist without any proof.

Yeah, exactly. So he's writing books. He's, uh, NASA's picking his brain. He's all over the place. And, uh, he eventually, we've talked about his TV show, uh, debuted on, um, well actually, it debuted in 1981. Yeah. I thought 80.

Was it 80? Yeah. Yeah, I think it was 1980. Um, so I must have been nine years old. I was four. I thought I was 10. What month was it? Uh, I don't know.

I don't know anything. Um, but he originally was, the TV series is going to be called Man in the Cosmos. But he, uh, thought that was sexist and he was a feminist. So he said, um, he proposed a couple more titles. Uh, one was called There. Terrible. T-H-E-R-E, uh, with some subtitle. And then the other was Cosmos along with a subtitle.

Um, and he spent like three years around the world filming this thing, right? Yeah. And it just, it was a, it was, it, it's not like it ran for seasons and seasons. It was like a, uh, a single run of shows on PBS that, uh, television event. Yeah. It was a TV event. Exactly. One of the other things he did, which I never knew was he wrote along with the sun now,

because the sun, uh, has a byline, I guess. Jimmy Sagan. Uh, Todd Sagan. No, he's, he's five kids, I think total. Okay. But one of his sons became a sci-fi writer. Another one became more of a science writer. Uh-huh.

So basically he split into two. Yeah. Actually I never thought about it that way. Bam. Um, I just explained his two of his kids' existence. He wrote the, uh, entry for, uh, life. Oh yeah. For encyclopedia Britannica.

Like this is what life is. Yeah. He was a fairly energetic dude, for sure. Yeah, to say the least. I mean, he did Cosmos in his mid-40s, just out of nowhere. He's got a lot of accomplished for a piehead. He really did, you know. He's like the Cypress Hill of, of science.

I don't know. Hey man, they, they put out like three albums in like four or five years. Oh yeah? It's a lot of work. And then retired. Yeah. Sagan did not retire. No, he did not, sir.

He worked up until his death in 1996. Yeah, he dies after battling, um, a bone marrow disease for about a year or so. Two, two years, I think is closer. Um, he's diagnosed with it and he needed a transplant and his sister, uh, stepped up and volunteered to give him a donation and did. And, uh, apparently it wasn't quite enough because he died of an infection after about a year and a half after, um, the, uh, transplant. Yeah.

Just 64 years old. Yeah. Too, way too young. It really is. And in fact, yesterday, the day we're recording this is, uh, November 10th, I believe yesterday was, is what would have been his 81st birthday. Oh yeah. You didn't plan that?

Nope. Wow. That's pretty impressive. Yeah. Speaking to me from billions of light years away. Yeah. That's funny that you say that because somebody wrote to him, um, they said, how do you know that there's not a heaven?

And, um, he had this really great response. He, remember in his archives, he was a pack rat. So he kept a lot of correspondence from it. They found, um, in this, um, article, there's a, a citation of a letter that he wrote to somebody and, um, he says, thanks for your letter. Nothing like the Christian notion of heaven has been found out to about 10 billion light years. And then in parentheses, he puts one light year is almost 6 trillion miles.

Best wishes. And the point is like, he, he, he took the time to write the letter back to this guy. Like he would engage rather than just ignore the letter entirely. So he entertained and indulged people's ideas enough that he would engage with somebody he didn't even know about whether there's heaven or not. And this, this was sent, um, the year he died actually. Oh wow. So he's writing this from his sick bed.

Wow. That's awesome. Uh, as far as whether or not it bothered him, uh, whether or not he was, how he was thought of in the scientific community, um, it kind of all came to a head in 1992. Uh, he was on a list to be included, um, as a nominee for the National Academy of Sciences. Uh, in the end, he was not included and it bothered him. Um, he kind of brushed it off to, to people in public saying that, you know, I didn't think I would get in anyway, but his widow said, uh, quote, it was painful.

It seemed like a, uh, unsolicited slight and quote. And in 1994 they ended up giving him an honorary medal, which was nice, but, uh, that was definitely a big sting for him. Yeah. The National Academy of Sciences said, nope, you're not a member. Yeah. You're not one of us. They basically said that the, the actual research that you did wasn't strong enough.

Right. Which, uh, it's, it sounds like a definite calculated slight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's included in my book. Yeah. For sure, man.

Uh, so my hat is off to you, sir. Forever. Anything else? No, man. I just, uh, someone needs to make a great documentary or movie about the guy. Yeah. You know. Starting Ashton Kutcher.

Okay. That's Carl Sagan. That guy can play anybody. Yeah. Uh, if you want to know more about Carl Sagan, you can start with this delightful little article on how stuff works by typing Carl Sagan in the search bar. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail. Hey guys, my name is Connie.

I've been a listener for a couple of months after my brother turned me on to the show, since I've been completely obsessed and haven't been able to stop listening. I'm on track to become a nurse so I can, I can't get enough of anything science or biology related. I want to thank you for a couple of things. I'm in a base level anatomy class right now and the rigor mortis podcast saved my behind and my grade on my cadaver dissection and muscles test. A lot of the things you covered like the nature of the muscles relationship with ATP and the

integral proteins really helped me pass my exam and not pass out in the cadaver lab. You also even taught my anatomy professor something new about hella cells. No. About that. Last year I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression due to the fact that I can never really fit in the right way. I lost almost all of my friends when I made an early jump from high school to college and being able to count on you two weekly has really helped a little bit with the loneliness

and learning something new is always a healthy distraction from anxiety. So you guys really give me something new and exciting to discuss and learn about twice a week. When you work 40 hours it really goes a long way. Nice. It'd absolutely make his year if you could give a shout out to my brother Matt the physics teacher. That is very nice.

Yeah. He's the reason I started listening to you and sharing a lot of knowledge is really something that has kept us close in spite of our 11 year age difference. It sparked so many interesting and inspired conversations between us. So thank you for what you're doing and helping many of us make it through tough spots. That is much love from Connie from Illinois. So thank you Connie and hello to Matt your brother. Hey Matt the physics teacher.

Yeah. Thanks guys. We love families that listen and bringing people together man. It makes us feel good. Yeah. The family that listens to S.Y.S.K. together stays together. That's right. The dire warning.

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For more on this and thousands of other topics visit howstuffworks.com. From the podcast Hey Dude the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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