Stuff You Should Know - Did the CIA test LSD on unsuspecting Americans?

Episode Date: November 11, 2008

As more and more time passes, the Freedom of Information Act provides increasingly disturbing stories of illegal CIA operations. Check out this HowStuffWorks podcast to learn more about MKULTRA and illegal CIA operations in the United States. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm here to help. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye-bye-bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the I Hard radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Brought to you by the reinvented 2012 Camry. It's ready. Are you? Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. This is Chuck. Chuck. Yes, no. I am Chuck. I'm here. I'm with you. Did you prepare today, as usual, that kind of method approach to podcasting? No, I know what you're getting at. No, I did not. You're just feeling a

little hinky or? I'm hinky. That's all I could do. That's what I'm hinky. Can you pull yourself together? I'm together. I'm with it. I'm fine. This is kind of an important one. It's a little out there, but it's all true. It is. Okay, so you're fine. I'm fine. I'm good. Let's do it. Well, we're talking today about a certain set of experiments carried out by a certain government agency as known as the CIA. Yes. And they carried out an experiment with another three-letter word, LSD, right on unsuspecting Americans. Yeah, I think most people would not expect to hear those six letters together in the same sentence. No, this is not widely known. So no, it really isn't. And frankly, it should be. I think it's kind of one of those things that supports just about every

American's notion of what the CIA is up to at any given time. Right. Right. And yet it's just so out there, so fantastic that they actually did this, that it's kind of hard to believe. But this is documented. This actually happened. It did. Okay. Do you want to give a little background first? Well, how about you tell us how we know that this stuff happened? Well, because it's on record. It is on record. It's actually factually on record. Yeah, there are a couple of congressional hearings on it. Exactly. And what amazes me is this happened in the 1950s, which is even less likely, because when you think about LSD acid, as they call it, as the kids call it, you think about the 1970s and or late 60s wood stock. Right. But it was actually in the 1950s when it was

first being experimented with. And we're talking the early 50s, too. Apparently, we were really, you know, full on into the Cold War. And we believed everything we heard about the Russians. We apparently, the CIA found out that the Russians were involved in some sort of truth serum, mind control, mind control, mentoring candidate experiments, right? And they found out that the Swiss pharmaceutical company that will ring a bell of the people who've taken acid and listened to our podcast, Sandos Pharmaceuticals, they had this stuff that was first created by a Swiss chemist named Albert Hoffman. It was LSD 25. And they apparently had 100,000 hits 100 million 100 million hits available to anyone who wanted to buy it was on the open market. They were

legitimate pharmaceutical company. And this is back when, as a lot of people don't know, LSD was an actual legitimate pharmaceutical, right? It was also often used later on for therapy. Did you know that? Well, in the States, Kerry Grant was huge, huge in the acid. Really? I kid you not, my friend. He took many a trip. And he actually, I can't remember who he's married to. It may have been Mia Farrow or somebody. Right. He essentially chased her off by being so insistent about his wife undergoing acid therapy, LSD therapy that she was like, you're a freak. I could see that. Yeah. So, okay, so we're, let's get back to the Sandos thing. Right, forget Kerry Grant. Yeah. They've got 100 million hits of acid on the market, which I mean, really,

the CIA heard this and they're thinking, oh, okay, 100 million hits they could take out New York, LA. The Russians could get this into the water supply. And all of a sudden, we have a population that's not listening to us anymore. Right. I guess they were, they wanted to create some sort of a chaos or mass hysteria or something like that. Or at worst, like the Manchurian candidate program, unwitting assassins who, you know, carried out these murders and had no recollection of doing it or being programmed. So they're like these perfect assassins. Right. They kind of suspected that LSD might help with that kind of thing. So when the CIA hears that these, these hits are on the market, they scramble to buy them. That's what I love. Turns out there's only, yeah, how much?

40,000 I think in the US, good old US government said, we'll take all of them. Yeah. So they bought 40,000 hits of LSD, acid in hand. They start carrying out their own horrific experiments. They went camping. No, I'm just kidding. All right. They built campfires. Right. They went, that's how a burning man actually started. So they're, they're, they have all this acid, and they say, well, okay, we have to figure out how to make our own Manchurian candidates and figure out how to use this as a truth here and myself. It just so happened that this, this acid was purchased at a time that the CIA launched this project called MKUltra. Right. And this project was huge. It actually doesn't stand for anything. I found out. I never found

it either. It doesn't stand. There were some other projects like MK projects that did stand for things, but ultra, it didn't stand for anything, which is unusual. Yeah. So they carry out MKUltra, which is 149 sub projects. And it's this vast range of basically figuring out how to get into people's minds or kill them. Like one, apparently they had magicians come in and TCA operatives. How do you slide of hand to poison people's drinks? Yeah. I can, I can virtually guarantee you a lot of magicians were shot in the back of the head after they gave that class. That was during the big magic freeze of the 1950s. Yeah. Yeah. That would account for it. Yeah. That was one sub project. Another was using electroconvulsive therapy to get people to talk, which I'm sure

was a lot of fun. Yeah. I bet it worked too. Yeah. There was radiation treatments. They wanted to see how much radiation people could be exposed to. And this was actually one of the more horrific aspects of it. There, there's a video on YouTube. If you, I think type in something like MKUltra testimony or radiation testimony, there is a woman who's testifying at a hearing. I think it's one of the 1970s hearings. And she's talking about how she, I think she was an orphan and she and everybody else in the orphanage were made to be test subjects by the L by the CIA, not on LSD, but like radiation and all that. And it's clearly broken. She's a broken person now. She's much older by this time. And it's just crazy to see somebody who actually was experimented on. She's

an American who has all these rights and just got thrown out the window. Well, yeah. And I know that they experimented on prisoners a lot too. Yeah. Specifically black prisoners. Right. So here's where we get into some of the shadier LSD experiments. That's one of them. Right. They go into a black prison and basically against the inmates will, as far as I know, test LSD on them. Now imagine taking LSD in prison. Right. I can't think of anything worse than that combo. No. And these were, like I said, this was an all black prison. And it was just bad. That's just a bad experiment. Another one was they, they, they lured heroin junkies. Yeah, I love this one too. Because and how did they lure them? They paid them in heroin. Yeah. CIA paid these people in

heroin. And this is again documented fact. Right. There is no need for the outside world because we are removed from it and apart from it and in our own universe. On the new podcast, The Turning, Room of Mirrors, we look beneath the delicate veneer of American ballet and the culture formed by its most influential figure, George Balanchine. There are not very many of us that actually grew up with Balanchine. It was like I grew up with Mozart. He could do no wrong. Like he was a god. But what was the cost for the dancers who brought these ballets to life? Were the lines between the professional and the personal were hazy and often crossed. He used to say, what are you looking at, dear? You can't see you. Only I can see you. Most people in the ballet world are more interested

in their experience of watching it than in a dancer's experience of executing it. Listen to The Turning, Room of Mirrors on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The war on drugs impacts everyone. Whether or not you take to America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2,200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that. And now I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss

you off. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are a lot of other experiments going on. And actually, the stuff was so rampant, as you know, Chuck, that the CIA actually developed an acid culture for a while. They did. And within their own system there. Yeah, they used to dose one another at parties.

Right. They used to take it themselves recreationally. Like at any given like LSD conference retreat, something like that. People were probably running around on acid. I know, you know, reading your article, it seemed almost unreal. Yeah, clearly. And it sounded like the 1950s in the CIA. It was almost like a prank, like, you know, hey, Agent 99, let's just go drop some acid and Agent 88 drink there. That's almost precisely what happened. And there'd be like a group who dosed somebody, and then everybody'd be watching them. And like a half hour later, the joke would be on him. He'd spend the next, you know, eight to 12 hours just or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, the CIA was well versed in the in how it felt to take acid. But the CIA operative isn't the average American. No. So they wanted to experiment on normal people. And I say normal kind of unwillingly because they did have a certain criteria of who could be targeted for it. So they went to kind of the seamy underbelly of cities and they found like hookers and junkies and exactly who else. Well, the guy, the pornographers. Yeah, the guy who found these folks posed as a pimp. Is that right? Yeah. Kind of had an alternate personality. Let's talk about these people. All right. There's this guy. All right. His name is Dr. Sidney Gottlieb. Yeah. This guy has a clubfoot. He overcame an almost debilitating stutter.

And he went on to become the chief of the technical division for the CIA. Now, this guy's greatest hits among, you know, carrying out the LSD experiments was developing Agent Orange. Another drug that he had tested by the people who were conducting the CIA or the LSD tests eventually gave way to erectile dysfunction drugs. Right. He did a lot of crazy stuff and some less, less solid evidence can puts him in Africa at the time that Ebola broke out of nowhere. Right. Maybe not a coincidence there. Yeah. Now, is he a medical doctor? Was he? He was a medical doctor. He was probably from what I understand of him. He probably had several doctorates to different degrees. That makes me feel much better. And I think he was also,

no, he may have been a chemist, actually, now that I think about it, but I think he did have medical training as well. That's the guy who's running the head of this. He's the head of this experiment. Right. Right below him is one of the most legendary characters you will ever hear about in your life. George Hunter White. They need to make a biopic film about this guy. I can't believe they haven't already. He originally, White originally started out, he really first made a name for himself by posing as a heroin trafficker for the better part of the 1930s and busting up this Chinese opium ring. And he took down hundreds of people. Right. But to get there, I mean, like, I'm sure he had to smoke opium quite frequently.

Oh, yeah. And he basically infiltrated this. He took a blood oath with this Chinese gang. He was in and he eventually took him down. So that's how he made a name for himself. But he didn't really, I hate to use this cliche. He didn't play by the rules. Not only did he not play by the rules, the guy's totally amoral. He was a completely amoral character. Yeah. A bit of a rogue agent. Yeah. I think he just kind of went whichever way his, his, his, his lies, whichever way the acid told him to go. Pretty much. Yeah. Because he was definitely one of the ones who took the acid. Right. So it all starts with him. Like the, the most that we know about the LSD experiments, they go back to George Hunter White. So White gets tapped by Gottlieb

to carry out these experience experiments. And it all starts in New York. Yeah. He didn't have a safe house or anything like this. This guy was doing these experiments on his friends at first in his apartment in New York, basically having acid parties without telling them that they were going to be taking acid. And actually you could argue that George Hunter White held the first acid parties in the history of the earth. Right. This guy was really, he, he, he'd make up batches of martinis and serve them to his guests. And of course, the, the picture of martini was spiked to God knows how much LSD. Well, that's one of the things too. I was wondering is at the time they, they were just starting to experiment. So they didn't even know what was a full dose,

what, what it would do. I mean, this is how they found out. Yeah. Yeah. And, and he had a, he had a terminology for what happened. If you had a bad trip, he called it the horrors. Right. One of the reasons we know so much about this is because George White kept the diary of notes for his experiments, at least to maintain some semblance of experimentation. He took notes on it. But yeah, so he'd serve his guests martinis, right? And then just sit back and take notes after it started kicking in. There was a whole subgroup of close friends of his that were actually inadvertently recruited. And they would bring their friends and he actually had this kind of a swinger social group, right? And swinger by every definition of the word. White apparently was into spike

hill boots. He'd do anything for a woman in spike hill boots. Yeah. Who wouldn't know, you know, right? His friends were just imagine like the, the 50s, shade ball, porno, swinger groups. And this is what White was at the center at, except he was unbeknownst to all of his friends, a CIA operative experimenting on LSD with them. So this needs to be a film in the works. I'm telling you, I would go see that so many times. So he's carrying all these experiments. And again, there was a certain subgroup of friends who loved it. They years later in the 90s, a lot of this, this information came out and it just fell to the wayside for reasons I can't understand. But a lot of them were like, we loved acid. George loved acid. Like we just took acid

all the time. Some people didn't like acid though. Exactly. Can go one of two ways generally. Yeah. When it comes to LSD. It's not really a middle ground of a thing. No. So there's this one woman in particular named Barbara Newsom. Oh, I felt terrible. And she was like 23, a young mother. Yeah. And she was married and her husband was actually kind of this kind of a cad from what I understand. He was part of White's little swinger group. But I also got the impression that he's kind of peripheral, wanted to be in further, but they just didn't think too highly of them. But White thought his wife was pretty hot. So he waits till her husband's out of town and invites her over. And Barbara Newsom was not really hip to what was going on. No,

she had a young kid at the time. She had a 21th old baby that she brought to the party. Right. So she clearly did not know what was going on. Totally unaware of what was going on. So White doses her anyway, right? Yeah. And the part of the problem was White quickly got bored, especially if you were on a bad trip. He had no, there was no padded room that he took you to or he didn't hand you like a hash pipe or anything like that. Right. You were on your own. He wanted you out of his hair. Right. And that was that. So it was a big bummer for him, I guess. Exactly. At the very least, it made him irritable. So he'd turn you out on the street, just tripping your head off. Right. And that's, that's what became of Barbara Newsom. She was turned down on the

street. She had a bad trip and she went home. She never told anybody about it. Her husband later pieced it together. They eventually divorced. Right. But she didn't even know what happened to her. No. I don't think she had a clue what happened to her. She became depressed. Her marriage fell apart. She ended up being committed on and off for the next 20 years. Right. And also, again, from the research I did, she was probably a little more fragile than the average person. Yeah. And it may, something else could have happened to her in her life that put it through this. Right. The fact is this woman was experimented on. It's documented fact. She was one of White's test subjects. Right. And her life fell apart. Right.

Sure. She kind of represents the bad side of these experiments. Yeah. I would say that's definitely the bad side. And one person died. Isn't that correct? Yeah. Dr. Frank Olson. Yeah. His son really has taken up the charge of trying to get the truth exposed. His father is definitely documented as having been tested on at one of those parties. Right. And now imagine like his father was an army scientist, a research scientist whose specialty was in delivering poison through aerosols. Right. He was a lab rat. He probably, I imagine his social skills weren't as quite refined as maybe White's or anybody else's. He goes to this party and they give him a shot of ghost quantro. Right. And he does not handle it well. No. And this is at

Thanksgiving too. It was around Thanksgiving. These guys clearly had no qualms about, you know, this one lady had a baby, this guy had some of the holidays and he skipped Thanksgiving with his family because he was so freaked out. They actually contacted the closest CIA approved doctor who was, I think, a podiatrist or something like that. Right. But he was the closest physician. I think the guy was in Virginia, which is close by to where this CIA Army conference took place. And so Dr. Olson's just freaking out and he's doing it very loudly. I think he kind of took everybody off guard with his reaction to the LSD. Right. They bring this doctor and the doctor's like, this guy needs some serious care and basically we need to kidnap him. Right. And he has

corns on his feet. Right. To boot. The podiatrist is always notices those things. Yeah. Well, yeah. It's his training. Yeah. So they basically sequester this guy. They call his family and say, your husband isn't going to be home for Thanksgiving. He can't make it. Right. Basically, don't ask any questions or any Thanksgiving as it turns out. Right. Eight days after his bad trip, he goes out the 10th story window of a hotel in New York. Right. And it was apparently suicide. That's how it was ruled. But years later, I think in 1992 or four, his son who actually started a website, the Frank Olson project, very interesting stuff. He had his father's body exhumed and there was evidence of pre-mortem blunt force trauma to the head. Right. Which kind of suggests, you know,

this guy was probably murdered. Exactly. A couple of years after the body was exhumed, Ike Feldman, who posed as the pimp will get to him in a second. In an interview with Spin Magazine, he said, you know, George Hunter White was doing the acid tests in New York at the time this guy went out of the hotel window in New York. Right. So, you know, you put two and two together. No one ever has definitively, but, you know, it kind of seems like the kind of guy White was. He didn't seem to have qualms about stuff like that. No. So, okay, New York's over. Yeah. This is where it gets good and sort of predictable when you look back, but they move the operation to an actually a funded place in San Francisco, of course. The apartment called

The Pad. Yeah. That's literally, it was called The Pad. And basically, I get the impression that White left his swing and social scene and his wife behind in New York, and he goes and takes the show on the road by himself in San Francisco. Right. And at first, let me describe The Pad real quick. It's this little apartment with a kind of bohemian art on the walls and, you know, God knows what else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was probably pretty close. One of the main features is a two-way mirror with the little hollowed out room behind it and that looked out onto the main living room. Okay. So, basically, White used to take a bunch of acid and he would pose as either a merchant semen or like some sort of starving artist. And he'd go into San Francisco

and basically find the prostitutes and the Johns and the drug dealers. And he'd round them up and bring them back to his place and just dose them with acid. Right. And they didn't feel bad because they considered these people just the dregs of society. Yeah. They figured they were degenerates anyway. But, you know, I think that there is probably a pretty wide threshold of, you know, who was fair game. Right. Who wasn't like, I'm sure if you were caught with a nudie mag under your mattress and you were married, they would have considered you fair game. Exactly. The degenerate or whatever. Here's some acid. Yeah. Right. So, at first, White's rounding all these people up, right? And he's basically just partying with them in San Francisco on acid. Gaining their

trust. Right. Eventually, he recruits Ike Feldman, the guy that we mentioned who did that 1994 spin magazine interview. Right. And Ike Feldman is just a badass. He is a tough, grizzled, old fringe of the law cop. Right. Right. He does whatever he, he, he's like the model for Vic Mackey from the shield. Whatever has to be done to get the job done, whatever. It doesn't matter how many times you break the law, if at the end you're bringing in the bad guy or whatever. So, he gets recruited by White, who basically goes and takes his rightful place behind the two-way mirror to watch how Feldman brings in the prostitutes and the Johns. And it got a little freaky from there. Yeah. And it, you know, it kind of made me wonder if the whole culture of San Francisco was

kind of known in the 60s as, you know, the counterculture, the revolution, the, the free love, the summer of love. If the CIA actually kind of helped create this in the 1950s. I can tell you most decidedly it did. Yeah. And the reason why, here's the punchline to the whole thing. This, this is just, this makes this whole thing beautiful and elegant as a mathematician would put it. One of the people who signed up for the legitimate experiments, actually, I think it was at a VA hospital or something, was a fellow by the name of Ken Keezy. Yes. Ken Keezy was an orderly at a mental hospital at the time. He was basically researching for his later book, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Yeah. Keezy's other claim to fame was he was the founder of the Mary Pranksters.

Right. And the Mary Pranksters hung out with the Hell's Angels. Yeah. The Grateful Dead. Wrote around in a colorful bus. And basically were the establishment of the hippie movement. Right. And the, the Tom Wolf book, Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test is a, is a great read. Oh, it's a great book. Yeah. And it really gets into this period in our history. And it's about Keezy and the, and the Mary Pranksters. Yeah. And Keezy was one of these willing participants in a test subject by the CIA on LSD. He was given it a couple of times, realized, holy cow, I love this stuff. Uh-huh. Found out that Sandos was the company that was making it, got a bunch, shared it with his friends. Once it went illegal, he also befriended Stanley

Owensley, who was like the premier underground acid chemist in the sixties. Right. And it all just kind of went from there. Uh-huh. So directly, the CIA led to the birth of the hippie counterculture and any remnants and traces of it still alive today. Yeah. That they later would condemn and, you know, cops would put the beat down on the hippies and the beat nicks. And it's just kind of funny that it was kind of created by the government. It's amazing. It is. It's beautiful. So I, that's the story of the CIA and LSD and the gingerbread man. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So stick around because this seems almost unimportant. We're going to tell you what article makes Chuck want to go out and eat a McRiver too. Right. LSD to the McRiver. Stick around for that

right after this. There is no need for the outside world because we are removed from it and apart from it and in our own universe. On the new podcast, The Turning Room of Mirrors, we look beneath the delicate veneer of American ballet and the culture formed by its most influential figure, George Balanchine. There are not very many of us that actually grew up with Balanchine. It was like I grew up with Mozart. He could do no wrong. Like he was a God. But what was the cost for the dancers who brought these ballets to life where the lines between the professional and the personal were hazy and often crossed? He used to say, what are you looking at, dear? You can't see you. Only I can see you. Most people in the ballet world are more interested in their experience

of watching it than in a dancer's experience of executing it. Listen to The Turning Room of Mirrors on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The War on Drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy, number one, is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that. And I'm the prime example of that. The War on Drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off.

The property is guilty, exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. Cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to The War on Drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, thanks for sticking around. Chuck. Yes. What makes you want to eat a McRibba, man? Well, what doesn't make me want to eat a McRib, Josh? The McRib is a temporary menu item, a featured menu item that you see at McDonald's occasionally. And as you know,

it's some sort of pork product, compressed into the shape of ribs. Bones and all. Yeah, but there are no bones. It's just part of the pork product. It represents the bones. And they put it on an oblong bun, slather it with some sauce, and it's delish. You're preaching to the choir. I know. I'm hooked on them as well. But this isn't a McDonald's commercial. No. So you should tell them the article. Well, it's, I think, top five McDonald's menu items that didn't make it. Yeah. It's a bit of silliness, but it's kind of a fun read. It is. It's very interesting. It's actually, I took it. It's written by our esteemed colleague,

Jane McGrath, who did a heck of a job with it. It's almost this glance into the corporate culture of McDonald's. Right. And marketing and how it goes wrong. Yeah. Terribly wrong. Yeah. There were two things on there that I would like to have seen. Shamrock shake. Yeah. Love the Shamrock shake. I've never had one. Oh, do they're great. And the other was the, what was the one that keeps the hot side hot and the cool side cool? The McDLT. Yes. That's right. That's right. I would have liked to have seen those on there, because I just loved the packaging for the McDLT. Right. The thing was cool.

I think that in the green movement these days, that wouldn't go over, because it's twice the packaging. Exactly. Yeah. Well, you can read all sorts of stuff about the green movement and plenty of menu items that didn't really make it for McDonald's. Right. And don't forget to read about the CIA and LSD. All of them can be found by typing in some clever words in the search bar on howstuffworks.com. Bridgewater, the hit fiction podcast is back. A supernatural thriller presented in immersive 3D by Neural Audio. The Bridgewater Triangle. There is some kind of mystical force in this region that attracts monsters and paranormal activity. There's something beyond our understanding

going on here. Starring Supernatural's Misha Collins, The Walking Dead's Melissa Ponziio, and Rogue One's Alan Tudyk, written by Lauren Shippen and created by me, Aaron Mankey. Listen to Bridgewater on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Attention, Bachelor Nation. He's back. The host of some of America's most dramatic TV moments returns with the most dramatic podcast ever with Chris Harrison. During two decades in reality TV, Chris saw it all. And now he's telling all. It's going to be difficult at times. It'll be funny. We'll push the envelope. We have a lot to talk about. Listen to the most dramatic podcast ever with Chris Harrison on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.