Stuff You Should Know - History's Greatest Traitors

Episode Date: August 22, 2013

The annals of history hold a special place for people who have carried out treachery and betrayed their own. Thousands of years later, their names are still synonymous with being a scoundrel around the world. From Marcus Brutus to Vidkun Quisling and more, Josh and Chuck examine some of the bigger turncoats to live -- and exonerate others. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.Works.com. Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. So, Chuck, I have a story for you. All right, let's hear it. Come back with me. Way back machine? Sure. Okay. A couple hours ago. Yeah. So here we are. It's December 22nd, 1972. Oh, yeah. Something really bad is about to happen. Sit down in front of this TV. Okay. Our good friend and hero, Peter Brady, is trying out for the school play. Yeah. It's a story of the American Revolution. I remember that.

He tries out for George Washington, but he doesn't get it. And in fact, the name of this episode that we're sitting here watching on this nice brown and orange shag carpeting is called Everybody Can't Be George Washington. Peter doesn't get the part of George Washington, but he does get another very important part, the part of Benedict Arnold. Well, at first he's like, hey, it's a part. It's a speaking part. I'm pretty happy. I'm going to do my best. I was a tree in my last six plays. Right. This is a huge step up for him until his classmates point out that Benedict Arnold was a traitor. And since Peter's playing a traitor, he must be some sort of traitor too. So basically the whole school turns on him

because he's playing Benedict Arnold. It's really kind of silly. It is very silly. And of course, Peter tries to get out of the play again and again, affecting Laryngitis, pretending he has a limp, all of this stuff for saying he forgets his lines. Yeah, I think I remember that. And finally successful. And then his dad points out that he has turned into a traitor. Now Peter against the whole class as a whole cast. Don't tell me he had a lesson for him and he sat him down and had a talking to it. It was a good one. Yeah, it was a good one. And so Peter goes in and plays Benedict Arnold and knocks it out of the park and learned a lesson in the process. But the whole premise of this episode of Brady Bunch is that Peter was suffering

from a smear campaign started 200 years before by George Washington. And it was so successful that even today you can get a rise out of somebody by calling on Benedict Arnold if they've done something traitorous. Yeah. And we've learned there are quite a few synonyms with traitor that were in fact notorious traitors like if you call someone a Judas, right? Or a Ben and Arnold or what? A Quisling. Yeah. That might be popular in some parts of the world. Right. This is the USA. Sure. So we call people Benedict Arnold. That's right. Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about Benedict Arnold to start. Okay. Well, you know, first of all, we should point out that this is a curated show from our buddy Sam Teagarden. This is the summer of Sam, then. Yeah. We're

continuing into our second summer of Sam. And for those of you that don't know, Sam is a local fan of ours and a good kid. And he's actually on our TV show. He was in an episode, the Make It Rain episode. Yeah. He's one of our softball teammates. Yeah. And Sam's a good guy and he sends in great ideas. So we like to highlight them when we do them. Yeah. All right. So summer Sam. Hey, Sam. Hope you're doing well, buddy. So we're talking about Benedict Arnold and why there was such a smear campaign against them. And it turns out rightfully so, although possibly I think a lot of Arnold's side of the story has been lost to history. Well, yeah. And coincidentally, or not coincidentally, some of these traitors that we're going to mention today,

history is borne out that they may not have been traitors. Yeah. But Benedict Arnold definitely was. No, he was a documented traitor. Yeah. As traitorous and treasonous as you can get as far as in the context of war. Yeah. So early on in life, things started out pretty well. He was born into some wealth. But his family, specifically his father, squandered their fortune with some bad business dealings. Apparently, he was quite a drinker. Oh, you turned into the town drunk. Yeah. Well, that'll do it. They lost their family estate. Yeah. They lost their dough. Three of his sisters, or sorry, siblings died from yellow fever. He had to drop out of school. They became an apothecary. Yeah. So things weren't like Rosie for the guy. Although he did quite well later on

in the military. Well, he did quite well even before that as a merchant. And actually, by the age of 22, was able to buy back his family's estate. Oh, really? Which he then turned around and sold at a profit. Well, good for him. So I guess he wasn't the sentimental type. Flip this estate. Yeah. I think it wasn't that he wanted his family's estate back. He just didn't want to lose out on the potential profit from it, I guess. Yeah. And he seemed like he may have been ADD before there was ADD. Yeah. Yeah. From the sounds of reading his thing, I was just like, man, this kid had ADD. He was always in trouble. He's getting kicked out of school. Yeah. But it was just because he was like busy. Yeah. He wasn't like a bad kid, it seemed like, but he was just

always had something going on. He finally, I guess, found his niche and he did become quite a businessman and fabulously wealthy. But he wasn't wealthy enough, in his opinion, and in fact joined the Sons of Liberty, a revolutionary group in New England because he was mad that his riches were being taxed by England. Yeah. He liked the dough. He did. And he did have a pretty remarkable military career and Jefferson and Washington were big supporters of him for a while. Yeah. But he also suffered. Apparently, there are a lot of petty jealousies that they don't talk about among the founding fathers and the second and third echelons of all these guys. And apparently, Benedict Arnold frequently suffered. Yes. He was slighted a lot. A lot. Yeah. He missed out on

honors and stuff like that. And he doesn't seem like the type to let things go, nor was he the type to air his feelings. So he just kind of sat there and stewed. Right. Yeah. I saw most of the times he was slighted. He fought really hard to get either reassigned or reappointed to the position he was going for. And so you're right. He couldn't let it go. He needed therapy, but instead, he was appointed to run West Point, not the Military Academy. The Fort, right? Yeah. This is pretty, I guess they probably named it after that, didn't they? I think it turned into the Military Academy. Okay. But I think this is before it was an academy. Yeah, it was definitely. Yeah. And so he, you know, went Benedict Arnold on everyone. And little did he know he was being a

Benedict Arnold, but he sold secrets to the British like plans, war secrets, armament locations for about three million bucks. I think it was 10,000 pounds at the time. Yeah. So he, he, the reason he did this ostensibly was, A, because he'd been slighted. Yeah. But also, and this is what it's been lost to history, is that he, he came to believe that the revolution had lost steam, that people running the show didn't really know what they were doing and probably wouldn't form a very good post-revolutionary government if successful. So did he genuinely think the Brits were going to do a better job? Supposedly. That's what historians say. But again, he didn't really, he may have been the type to just kind of say that's what he was thinking to,

and that's what somebody wrote down at some point. But he ultimately said, the colonies are better back in the hands of England again. Gotcha. So not only am I going to try to sell the map to West Point, I'm going to join the British Army, which he did, and led at least two raids against American revolutionary forces. So he really switched sides. Oh yeah. Yeah. And in 1780, I can't believe whoever wrote this article put that, when the plot was intercepted, he went from zero, he wrote a zero. I know. I know. I was, all of a sudden, I was in like an US magazine or something. Or like a Springer show episode. But that's what happened. He was convicted of treason and his name was erased from the record

books. And England promised him, they're like, Hey, if you defect over here, we're going to give you land in Canada. Yeah, we're not going to give you land here. We'll give you land in Canada, some money, and we'll promise your family pensions. And you're going to be a British Provincial Brigadier General. And he's like, that sounds pretty great. But as it turned out, he didn't get that many great assignments in the military in England. He was even sort of, I don't think anyone likes a traitor. No, that's even in England. They're like, yeah, yeah, that comes up again and again. Like, yeah, even the side that you're trying to or whatever, they, yeah, they're like your traitor. Well, I think it's because basically

you're just a big liar. Yeah, you're treacherous. Yeah. And so people are like, How can I trust you? Thanks for doing that. But can you go live in Canada? But it does pop up again and again. Anybody who's ever turned traitor and expected some sort of glory has been sorely disappointed. Yeah. So in England, he was sort of poo poo. Then he moved to Canada. They didn't like him. Yeah. And then he moved back to England and died there without ever like making a whole lot of money or getting any important military action. Right. So sort of a sad ending. It really is. And today, if you go to West Point, there's, I guess, 12 plaques of some of like the head revolutionary generals. Oh, yeah. And his name is literally wiped from the record. It has the year of his birth.

And I think the town of his birth, but his name is not on the plaque any longer. It just says boo. There's a smear or there's a sharpie through it. Right. All right. So that's been an external. Let's go a little further back. Okay. Let's go way back. Okay. I'm talking like maybe 44 B.C. Cassius and Brutus. Yeah. Marcus Junius Brutus the younger. I'm glad you looked that up. Yeah. I'm sure you had a fuller name. Yeah. Brutus. It's like it's like a whole country of share or something. And here's the thing with these guys. They were definitely traders as well, but they're also singled out. Clearly they killed Caesar. We all know in the Ides of March, Caesar the senator and DFL. Yeah. Dictator for life, which self declared.

But they're like 60 dudes that took part in this. Yeah. And Caesar was self declared Caesar fought a civil war. One informed a triumvirate with the people that he vanquished. Yeah. So he wasn't entirely dictatorial, although as like popular opinion started to swell around him, he's like, maybe I will just be leader for life. Let's save all those voting days and I'll just be leader for the rest of the time I'm alive. And Cassius and Brutus had both fought against Caesar in the civil war. Yeah. And despite that, Caesar pardoned both of them and gave them positions of power in his new government and brand new knives and they said right. And they said still not enough. Well, Cassius especially apparently he was very envious of Caesar power. He was the

rabble rouser and that that was ultimately his motive. Although he he used the concept of the Republic of Rome turning into a date dictatorship to lead the the assassination against Caesar. Yeah. And even cooked up evidence and like letters of support to show Brutus because Brutus was much friendlier with Caesar. They were buds. Right. And but he was swayed by Cassius and said, you know what? This is going to be good for our country or our kingdom or whatever they were calling at the time and took part. But they weren't like that the lead. I mean, maybe they cooked it up, but they weren't the initial aggressors. I thought Brutus was the first one to stab Caesar. Now this dude Tilius Simber came out and like pulled down his tunic, first of all. Did he really? Yeah. I

guess he said pulled it down, but I don't know what that means. If he I imagined he was pulling it the hockey jersey, either pants them or no tunics like a shirt thing. So I thought he pulled it over his head like a hockey player might in a fight. It's like reverse pants. Reverse pants them. So Caesar was like, you know, what is this violence going on? And then another dude, Casca, he came at him with a knife and Caesar blocked him away and defended himself and was like, basically, what's going on here? And then that's when everyone 60 guys descended upon him. Wow. Among, you know, Brutus might have been the leader of that pack, though. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, stab the crap out of him. So I knew I thought Brutus was the first one to stab him.

I knew that some other guy was the first one to strike him. And it may have been the guy who reversed pants them. Yeah, Yumi and I were at Pompeii. We actually walked around Pompeii. And there's a table there and it belonged to that guy. Oh, really? And I guess somebody in Pompeii like bought the table of the first guy to strike Caesar and like had it in their via. And it's still there today. And did you eat at it? No, we stared at it. We looked at it from like three meters away. Gotcha. You have to say meters because it's in Italy. That's obnoxious. And apparently only one of the stabs you stabbed 23 times and like continued to be stabbed even after he was on the floor dead. But only one of them was a fatal blow. He was that like the second stab, I think, went

through his heart. And the rest were just, you know, but before that injury when Brutus stabbed him, yeah, Caesar very famously said a two Brute, which literally means and you Brutus or what the hell Brutus? Yeah, you too. And supposedly he kind of gave up at that point, like it killed the spirit when he saw Brutus was involved. Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah, supposedly he didn't want to live in a Brutusless world in a world where even Brutus could assassinate him. So he resigned himself to dying and hence became a hero. It's very sad. It was on my birthday. I had to march. I thought your birthday was, is it the 15th? Why don't you 15th too? But not a march. That's right. So, oh, also too, apparently that was the first autopsy report. Oh, really? First postmortem

death report was made on Caesar. The Greeks, man. If that's true. I've heard the Romans. Whoops. Whatever. I'm really glad I caught that one. Yeah. Yeah. Still probably not going to lead to their email. No, I don't want to see on these two traders. No. Oh, yes. Dante had a special hatred for Brutus and Cassius. And in his inferno, he says that they are being perpetually eaten by two of Lucifer's three mouths. Wow. And the third mouth is reserved for the next guy we'll talk about, a little guy named Judas Iscariot. Oh, really? Yeah. Satan's third mouth. So Lucifer's three mouths are eating Cassius, Brutus, and Judas.

Wow. All right. Judas is one of these that recent evidence has emerged where he may not have been such a traitor, but we'll get into that. But, but then that was refuted as well. All right. Everyone obviously knows the Judas kiss. Very famously, Judas betrayed Jesus. His, he was one of the disciples. He'd betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Yeah. And it was actually a signal to the guards to come and grab him. I guess he was identifying him. Yeah. Apparently the, the Romans didn't know who this Jesus was, at least by sight. And Judas went and said, Hey, you guys want this Jesus? What do you give me? And the signal was like, well, you kiss the guy that's Jesus and we'll come get him. And we'll give you 30 pieces of silver.

30 pieces of silver. I mean, the West egg inflation calculator doesn't go back to, you know, that, that date. But I can imagine it still probably wasn't that much 30 pieces of silver. I have no idea. Well, apparently it was used later on to buy a field to turn into a potter's field to bury unclaimed dead. Oh, really? But I mean, it's field. How much, it couldn't have been that much. Like how much was land going for back then in the Middle East? They had tons of land. 2023 is already well underway, everybody. So don't wait any longer to level up your small business. And the way you can do that is by joining up with stamps.com. That's right. Because with stamps.com, you're going to be able to print your own postage and shipping labels right there from

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we didn't know much about his life at the time, but recently there has been, I think in 2000, one of the gospel, a new gospel was revealed, the gospel of Judas supposedly. Colin, my story. My side of things. And it was, of course, a papyrus document dating to the second century AD. And it was written about in a book called The Lost Gospel. And it portrays this, Judas is more of a facilitator of what Jesus wanted. Basically, Jesus was like, Hey, turn me in because this is my destiny. Like sacrifice yourself. I sacrifice myself. And we all go on to live in heaven and fulfill our destinies. Yeah, which a lot of people were like, Okay, I kind of like this different view

of Judas. And it makes Jesus even more prescient than he appears in the Bible. Because he's betrayed by someone he thought was his friend. In this, he is commanding Judas. He's asking him to do this. So it's just an all around like great view of the story. When, when? But unfortunately, apparently, there's some problems that a lot of scholars, Gnostic scholars have with the translation. And that if you just tweak a few things to the way that the Gnostic scholars think it should be translated, that all just goes right out the window. And actually, Judas is not only a horrible treacherous trader, he's actually a demon from the 13th level of being. Yeah. So quite two different stories, all by changing a few words in

this Coptic text, which isn't the easiest stuff to translate. Like, it's tough, you know, it's not like, and even the person that poo pooed the original translation was like, this is a very hard job, you know, I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose. But that's not what I think it says. Right. And so, and that was April Deconic, a professor of biblical studies at Rice University. And I don't know, did other people come out and support that? I couldn't really find much. I don't know. And apparently, actually, in the Bible, it's hinted at that Jesus could have known about it. But well, doesn't he say like, one of you will betray me? I mean, at least, yeah, he definitely said that. And the last temptation of Christ, who Harvey Keitel does

a pretty good Jesus or a Judas. Yeah, yeah, you know, willing to foe. Yeah, that was a good movie. But yeah, that was how I when I like everything I'd ever heard, I always thought like Jesus knew it was just never as explicit as this Gospel of Judas put it. Right. And in Gospel of Judas, they even claim that Jesus even asked Judas like, Hey, will you do this for me? Right. Do me a solid. So kiss me. Put one right here. Right. So Judas realizes what he's done, feels horribly guilty, tries to give the silver back. The high priests that he's sold Jesus out to won't take the money. And so he throws it on the temple floor. They end up figuring out that it can be used for a potter's field and they use that 30 pieces of silver for that. And then Judas goes off and

hangs himself. Yeah. And I don't think we said Jesus was crucified. I thought that went without saying. Yeah. But in case there's like one person out there was like, What happened to Jesus? Whatever became a Jesus. That's what happened. And then Judas supposedly fell headlong. And his body opened up and there if you go back and read some scholarly translations, they think that his body opened up means that he was left. His body was left hanging for a while. Oh, wow. Out in the heat. And when it finally fell, like a branch broke or whatever and it fell, it kind of ruptured. Gross. Where'd you find that out? I don't remember. Somewhere online. Wow. Yeah. It was, um, yeah, they were talking about how he went headlong. He became headlong. And

they were saying like, if you just switch out like a couple of letters, headlong becomes swollen. And then that would explain why his body opened up. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And now Judas and Judas Kiss are both part of the lexicon and, you know, in terms of betrayals. You know, treacherous, treacherous. I know. Thanks, Sam. How about Chuck? I know you've seen this movie. I love this movie. The assassination of Jesse James by the coward, coward Robert Ford. Yeah, we've talked about it. That is a good movie. Very good movie written and directed by Andrew Dominic and has Paul Schneider and my buddy Paul Schneider. Yeah. Schneids. Right. He listens. Oh, hey.

What's he, is he's in it? Yeah. He's, he's one of the gang and, uh, he's, he's a great actor. He's, we've since become like email pals. That's neat. Yeah. So, uh, that was an excellent movie. I'm sure Schneider did fantastic in it. He did great. Schneids. Schneids. Um, and it seems to me, I don't know a lot about the whole saga of Jesse James, especially his demise. Yeah. But it seemed to be pretty true to everything I've ever heard about it. Yeah. I think the movie was pretty accurate. Yeah. And it was great, like gorgeous to look at. Beautifully filmed. Yeah. Uh, and not just because Brad Pitt was in it. Uh, but Casey Affleck as Robert Ford was amazing. He really did. So anyway, if you haven't seen that movie, go out and see it. In the meantime, we'll spoil it for you.

I think he was nominated for an Academy Award. I can't imagine how he wasn't. Yeah. And he was so creepy. So what's the deal with Jesse James? Well, Jesse James was a member of the James gang. Yeah. The leader. Full partner. Well, I think he and his brother Frank were kind of co-leaders. Oh, really? That's the impression I have. Like Frank Stallone. Yeah. And, um, they, uh, were very successful at robbing trains, robbing people, robbing banks, robbing everything. Yep. And they became outlaw folk heroes. Everybody loved to hate, but they also still loved. Well, they didn't kill people. No, not until the second to last robbery by Jesse James. Yeah. Uh, they botched it and a couple of people died. Most of the James gang was caught and Jesse and Frank went off and assembled

a new gang that included Robert Ford. Yeah. He was pretty new. Um, he had long tried to get in the James gang and, um, was sort of shunned as a little weird and like not the most skilled robber and gunman and it wasn't taken very seriously, which always bothered him. Right. So, um, Jesse James pulls off one last train robbery in 1870 and decides to retire. Frank James retires and Robert Ford kind of tangs along with Jesse James the rest of his life. And, um, the governor of Missouri put a bounty on Jesse James head of, I believe, $10,000, which is pretty substantial for 1870. Sure. And in 1882, Robert Ford took the governor of Missouri up on this. Apparently he met with him. Yeah. And not only said, I'm going to do this.

I want this reward. I'm going to split it with my brother here. Yeah. But I also want to be, I want immunity from my crimes. Yeah. Well, he was supposedly just supposed to capture him. Oh, okay. And, um, did the shooting on his own volition. And, and there's a woodcutting in this article of Jesse James dropping a feather duster, just like he does in the, um, movie. Oh yeah. He stands on a chair in his own home to dust a picture and Robert Ford shoots him in the back of the head. Yeah. And kills him just right there. Very like, uh, low key and anti climactic with his wife home and everything. Yeah. And then they leave. And so Robert Ford kind of, uh, like, I think, uh, Benedict Arnold expected to be considered something of a hero. Yeah. And

he was considered a coward, a zero. Yeah. Yeah. He was actually, he and his brother were both indicted, found guilty, sentenced to hang and pardoned in a single day. That's a heck of a day. Yeah. Pretty like the emotional rollercoaster going on there. And they became, uh, ostracized socially. Um, Robert Ford just became the butt of many jokes. And then finally, um, one day he was confronted by a man who sought him out because he wanted to kill Robert Ford for, to gain his own acclaim. Yeah. Edward O'Kelly, uh, brought a shotgun into, he was, uh, a bar owner, I think at the time Robert Ford was. And after, by the way, they toured in a touring production. Oh yeah. Like recreating the murders. Yeah. Sam Rockwell. Yeah. And, um, so Edward O'Kelly

goes into the bar with a shotgun and says, hello, Bob. He turns around, shoots him in the throat, and he gets a sentence commuted after a petition in his pardoned for killing Robert Ford. Yeah. Back then the mob, mob rule definitely had like, uh, a ground hold. Yeah. I don't know what that is, but I think I got my point across. Yeah. They were like, he was a coward and you shot him. So that makes you a good guy. Exactly. Uh, so that's Robert Ford. You got anything else? Nope. Should we move on to Matahari? Yeah. I knew next to nothing about Matahari. Yeah. Same here. She turned out to be a pretty fascinating woman. Yeah. Possibly not a traitor at all. Yeah. Actually probably not a traitor at all. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about her. Well, um,

she was a very sexual being. She was very close to her father, apparently, who doted on her. And she has been described as, um, sex as being her driving force. And she was said to have an insatiable longing for male attention her entire life. And for the time period, early 1900s, she really, really slept around. Yeah. And she didn't just like you, the sex with the men. She liked them to buy her stuff. Oh yeah. Well, she used it as a means for sure. Yeah. She, um, she blew through a lot of guys' money, right? Yeah. And, um, just loved to live lavishly, racked up tons of debt and, um, became something of a toast among Parisian society, European society, actually. Yeah. She was Dutch. We should point out. Yeah. Her real name was, um,

Margarita Zelle. Yeah. But she looked like Indian and she tried to remake herself as this Indian exotic Indian dancer. I read Indonesian. Oh, Indonesian. Yeah. Because Matahari is, um, Malaysian or Eye of the Dawn, which means sunrise. Gotcha. So her name was sunrise, the stripping dancer. Well, and she, she didn't just dance. Like this was at a time when the Moulin Rouge was like, they were like pulling their skirts up a little bit and showing some ankle and some knickers. And she was like taking it to, you know, another level on stage in people's living rooms. You know, private dances, like traveling dancing, um, like really erotic and exotic stuff for the time. So from what I understand, she was also a sometime prostitute, um, when things were really

bad. Sure. Um, and then she, uh, but ultimately she just kind of went through a succession of, of lovers around Europe. And, uh, at one point she found herself in, um, I guess, in Amsterdam. Oh. And was approached by a German officer and said, Hey, we want you to spy for us. Here's 20,000 Franks and some invisible ink. And, um, you're now a German spy. Right. And she's like, whatever, mine air. Right. Thanks for the money sucker and threw away the invisible ink supposedly and never spied for Germany. But she still had a code name H 21. And as far as Germany was concerned, she was a spy for them, even though she didn't take it seriously apparently and never carried out any spying activities. Right. So she had a reputation as a German spy.

Yeah. Without actually spying yet. Right. And, uh, she was as, uh, this one writer puts it, she was traveling alone. She was wealthy. She was an excellent linguist and very foreign and very educated and admitted to having lovers and like all of this stuff for the time just meant we don't trust you even if we don't have evidence. Right. This makes you untrustworthy. Right. So, at some point the French decided that they were going to recruit her to become a French spy. This is during World War one. Yeah. Even though they already suspected she was a German spy, she was sent around, um, to try to get to, I don't remember what country they were trying to get her into. Of, uh, Vitell. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. She went to Russia. Yeah. She ended up going there

for a little while in exchange for becoming a French spy, agreeing to spy for the French. Exactly. She ended up in Spain and came across this German officer and apparently he suspected her of being a spy. So when she started asking him questions, he gave her old information. Yeah. Well, they went to bed together as well. Sure. We should mention this thing is just rife with sex. Right. And, um, he gave her some old information. This, the Frenchman who, the French intelligence officer who recruited her as a spy, but still suspect her as a German spy, finally said, you know what? I think that what you were really doing was giving French secrets to the German. You're a double agent and we're going to arrest you and she's arrested in France.

Again, no evidence. No evidence whatsoever and tried for treason and convicted. Yeah. And, um, basically Thunder knows that the whole experience and was like, I'm going to hold my head high. I'm going to blow you a kiss right before you shoot me in the firing squad. Well, supposedly it wasn't the firing squad. It was two nuns that she became friends with and her lawyer who also she had slept with. That's who she blew kisses to, but she refused. Oh, I thought she blew. Okay. That's what it said in this article, but I saw elsewhere. It was like to the nuns. She also slept with her headmaster when she was 16. Yeah. And got kicked out of school for it. Yeah. So she refuses a blindfold in the end. She's all dressed up and everything for her execution. She's standing

ankle deep in mud on a cold October day in 1917. Yeah. She refuses to be tied to the pole behind her. She refuses a blindfold and is executed by firing squad. So the weird thing is is about 30 years later, one of the prosecutors in France admitted quote, they didn't have, sorry, here's the quote. There was quote, not enough evidence to flog a cat. Yeah. That she very, very likely did not ever spy for Germany. Yeah. Made that one half hearted attempt in France just to spy for France to make some money and was executed and still didn't protest. I wonder if there's been a good movie on her. Surely there has. I don't know if there's been a recent one. She was tall too. She was like almost six feet tall. Yes, she looks very long.

Yeah, look at her. It's hard to like sometimes it's tough to look at pictures from back then and see the attraction, you know. Yeah. It's just a different time period. Yeah. I think it was the fact that she took off her clothes and was real sexy and tall. Right. Yeah. Slept with everybody. So Mata Hari probably was not a trader and they really had a lot of trouble trying to prove that another famous trader was actually a trader. And that woman was Iva Toguri. Takino. Yeah. Yeah. Tokyo Rose. Yeah. She was, in fact, I'm just going to go ahead and say it. She was not a spy and she was not a treasonous trader because it was proven so and she was pardoned by Gerald Ford. Right. So she was born... So I'm just going to take her off the list.

Okay. We'll finish the story though. Yeah. So it's a worthwhile story. Yeah. Iva Toguri, she was born in America in Los Angeles and had a degree in zoology from UCLA. Yeah. And in 1941, she traveled to Tokyo to take care of an ailing aunt, her family center over there. Yeah. Despite the fact that she didn't really speak Japanese. She hadn't been raised in Japanese culture apparently. Yeah. And it was a lot of culture shock, but she still went over to take care of her aunt nonetheless. And while she was there, she got two jobs. One she was typing for one new service and she got a second job as a typist for one of the radio stations. Yeah. And they're like, hey, you're American, Japanese American and you have a great voice

and you're perfect for this new thing that we're going to do. It's American rock and roll music and we're going to play it for the morale of the troops. And well, to deteriorate the morale. Well, but she, they told her a different story at first though. Oh, okay. They told her it was to boost the morale. Really? Yeah. Like, I don't think she knew what she was getting into. That's crazy. Why would the Japanese boost the morale of the American troops in the Pacific? Well, it was later said that it did in fact boost the morale. They said Americans love the music and thought the Tokyo Rose banter was funny and it lifted their spirits. It's funny. Yeah. Okay. So if they were really trying to do that, it did a pretty poor job of it. Okay. But nonetheless,

she was reporting on things like ships being sunk. Is that correct? Yeah, she called it. Well, that's what she was eventually the one thing that they pinned on her. Okay. Well, then that didn't actually happen. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. So, well, let's get back to the story. World War II goes along. Yeah. She, right. It ends and she tries to get back to America. And as she's doing that, apparently the Japanese government identified her as Tokyo Rose. Yeah. She was orphan Anne was her radio name. Tokyo Rose was just sort of the name of the operation as a whole. Right. And not a single person, even though they tied her to that name, which led to some great confusion, apparently. Yeah. Because they were trying to get her as Tokyo Rose, even though her,

she called herself orphan Anne and there were like 12 women, including her, that were all Tokyo Rose collectively. Yeah. Okay. So the Japanese government says that's Tokyo Rose. And she said, I'm orphan Anne, the American intelligence services of the army investigated her and could find no evidence that she committed any form of treason. And they were going to let her in the country back in her place of birth, because she traveled without a passport. Yeah. And now that she's trying to get back in, she needed a passport. Apparently a lot of veterans groups are like, you can't let Tokyo Rose into the US. Yeah. It was just one guy kind of started the charge and was successful. The reporter had a bondage. Yeah. Yeah. Well, apparently he

got a couple of Japanese guys to commit perjury and present false evidence against Tokyo Rose. Yeah. The two most damaging witnesses actually like just completely lied. Right. The FBI put him up to it, coached them and said, you're going to get tried for treason if you don't do this. So she ended up being tried and convicted for treason and sentenced to 10 years and she got out in 1956 and they tried to deport her and she successfully battled deportation and moved to Chicago. Yeah. She died in 2006. She worked at a retail store until 2006. Her father's store. 2006. She was working in a retail store. Yeah. At 90 years old and nobody even people didn't like come in there to see Tokyo Rose. Like she was just a worker. Yeah. Isn't

that weird? It is. Like such a prominent figure in history and just to ringing people up. Yeah. Like you said, Ford pardoned her. Yeah. Gerald Ford. Then he fell down. Let's talk about the quizzling just briefly. Yeah. The quizzling is we mentioned earlier is another name. If you live in perhaps Norway or maybe other parts of Europe, you might be called a quizzling if you're a trader because of VidCon quizzling. Yeah. He was, he basically tried to seize power after budding up with Hitler in 1940 and said, you know what? I'm going to use this as an opportunity to make Norway my own. Yeah. And he did so for a very, very short time. Yeah. He invited the Nazis to come and invade Norway. They did. He made a power

grab and said, I'm now the ruler of Norway and the Nazis let that slide for about a week. They're like, sure. Sure. He a ruler. Then they installed their own guy as the head of Norway and demoted quizzling to minister president. Yeah. And apparently he went to work sentencing using Norwegian Jews to concentration camps. Yeah. He really bad guy. Yeah. He was very much anti-union. He was a fascist and he was trying to make Norway fascist and he did so. He became the first person to ever announce a coup d'etat on television. That's how he made his power grab. Oh, really? Yeah. I think it was television, although it seems early. So maybe it was radio. But I guess he became the first one to announce it over a broadcast. Right. So after the Nazis were

defeated, he was like, oh, no. Yeah. I have a feeling this is going to end up bad for me. Yeah. And he was convicted of treason, sentenced to death and executed by firing squad. And you are a quizzler. I'm sorry, quizzling. If you collude. Yeah. If you're in Norway and you're a trader, you're a quizzling. Yeah. It's like the Benedict Arnold of Norway. So Chuck, you got anything else? No. And as per usual, this is a top 10 that we do about six of and encourage people to go read the rest, including Robert Hansen who we've talked about. Yeah. Ezra Pound who we talked about in the Insanity Defense. Yeah. And the Cambridge Five, not the Seattle Seven. Or the Jackson Five. Or the Jackson Five. Yeah. And did we skip another one or was that it? I don't

remember. Oh, the intro. We didn't mention the Cleveland Cavaliers, Iyer. Against LeBron, which I just think that's weird. Well, I think that's... Cleveland went berserk. That sort of has passed and there's rumors of him going back to Cleveland anyway. No way, really. Maybe his contract's up and they think that he might love nothing more than to go back there and win a championship. Huh. Well, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see what happens. If you want to learn more about traders, you can type that word into the search bar at housetoforks.com and it'll bring up this article. And since I said search bar, it means it's time for message break. 2023 is already well underway, everybody. So don't wait any longer to level up your small

business. And the way you can do that is by joining up with stamps.com. That's right. Because with stamps.com, you're going to be able to print your own postage and shipping labels right there from your home or office or home office. And you know, it's ready to go in minutes. You can get back to running your business sooner than later. Yep. Stamps.com is like the post office elevated. They have rates you literally can't find anywhere else, which comes in handy because postage rates just increased again, like up to 84% off of USPS and UPS. Plus stamps.com automatically tells you your cheapest and fastest shipping options. So use stamps.com to print postage wherever you do business. All you need is that computer and printer. Set your business up for success. When

you get started with stamps.com today, just use our promo code stuff for a special offer that's going to include a four week trial plus free postage and that free digital scale, no long term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the page and enter our code stuff. You're ready to travel in 2023. And since 1981, gate one travel has been providing more of the world for less. Let gate one handle the planning for you with affordable escorted tours and European river cruises. And right now through January 30th, use promo code heart 20 to receive 20% off your tour. That's promo code heart 20 through January 30th. Visit gate one travel.com

for more information or to book your tour. That's gate the number one travel.com. Once again, use promo code heart 20 through January 30th to receive 20% off your 2023 trip. Now, Chuck, it's time for listener mail. This is cap grass. Hey guys, thanks so much for doing the cap grass syndrome episode. It was amazing timing came out right around Father's Day and my father suffers from the syndrome. It's been very painful to watch. No. Yeah. Wow. During my marriage, we have never lived very close to my parents, but just under three years ago we moved close enough for day trips. About the same time, my dad had a fairly significant stroke and it made the slow progress of vascular dementia Alzheimer's that he also suffers from significantly worse.

Started visiting my dad on a weekly basis. I would spend the day with him while my mom and brother would get the Monday rush orders out. Apparently dad ran a mail order business. When I first started these visits, dad knew who I was. We talked and I shared photos and stories of my kids, but within just six months, the cap grass really took effect. We had to work our way through who this strange lady was who lived there now, my mom, and why did Linda, my mom, leave him and watched his absolute fear when she would walk into the room. He eventually forgot who my brother and I were as well as well as our spouses and kids. Although I had to giggle a little bit during the small amount of time when my husband was the only one of us he knew, because

cap grass affects those closest to you and then works his way out. So the husband wasn't around him as much. So I think he was the only person that he recognized and the wife thought that was kind of funny. Now the dementia and Alzheimer's have progressed to a point of living in the past and not even remembering moment to moment, let alone day to day. He still doesn't know why his family has abandoned him even though we're all around him all the time. I know he lives a very fear-filled and lonely life among strangers. I liken it to living in a nightmare every moment of the day. And it sounds really sad, but she was fairly upbeat in the email that we corresponded with just so people are up there crying and stuff. Thanks for doing the podcast. I want to talk

about how dad is doing. It's tough to explain what he's going through, and now I can just send people to the podcast to learn more about it, which really helped. That is Jill Overturf in Republic, Missouri. Well, thanks a lot, Jill. We appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, and I'd, you know, I hope things improve for your father. Yeah, for sure. If you have a story about something we've talked about ever, we want to hear it, especially if we've helped you explain it to other people. We like that kind of thing. You can tweet to us at SYSK podcast. You can join us on facebook.com slash stuff you should know. You can send us an email to stuffpodcast at discovery.com, and you can always check out our website, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com. You're ready to travel in 2023, and since 1981, Gate One Travel has been providing more of the world for less. Let Gate One handle the planning for you with affordable escorted tours and European Riffer Cruises. And right now, through January 30th, use promo code HEART20 to receive 20% off your tour. That's promo code HEART20 through January 30th. Visit gateonetravel.com for more information or to book your tour. That's gatethenumberonetravel.com. Once again, use promo code HEART20 through January 30th to receive 20% off your 2023 trip. It's been said that a day of traveling will bring a basket full of learning. Fill your basket to the brim in Mississippi with family

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