Stuff You Should Know - How Bounty Hunters Work

Episode Date: February 25, 2010

In part two of their series on bail, Josh and Chuck talk about bail enforcement agents, a.k.a. bounty hunters. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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No, you didn't, Chuck. And if you had, something would have happened to you. You're right. Yeah, maybe a bounty hunter would have come after you. Part two, Josh, our first ever, well, not true, but this is a two-part suite. Yeah, it's definitely not our first ever. Thank you, Steve, Reader Steve, who sent in the suggestion. Yeah, and again, it was an NPR three-part series on bail in the United States that kind of kicked this thing off. It's, like I said, it's worth reading. Go to NPR.org and you can check it out. I think you'd probably just type bail in their handy search bar.

Yeah. But yeah, we asked the question at the end of the last podcast that came out on Tuesday. Here it is, Thursday. The question was, what happens when you skip bail? Right. And as we've just established, you get a bounty hunter sick done your ass. Right. Yes. In many cases, that is exactly what will happen is a bondsman will hire what they like to be referred to as a bail enforcement agent. But of course, we like to call them bounty hunters because it's just a cooler name. It is a way cooler name. And it's a name that goes back several centuries, right? At least one or two. Well, sure. Are you talking about the Old West?

Yeah. Yeah. When the whole thing started was when, I believe in 1873, a Supreme Court case, Kramer versus Kramer, no? Taylor versus Tainter. Taylor versus Tainter. This case gave bounty hunters authority to act as agents for bail bondsmen. And then starting then, and even if it wasn't a bail bondsman, there would be the wanted poster in the Old West, like bringing back debt or alive. Of course, that's just a bounty on someone's head. Right. Right. Because you bring them back dead. That's not going to do much good in court.

Dead is easier to transport. Yeah. But that's the way it started. And I believe what was Jesse James was worth five grand at his peak. Yeah. Did you go on to the currency converter? I did nearly a hundred grand. Wow. Yeah. I would have thought more. Yeah. But the bail was different then. Like now he would probably be like 10 million. Oh, sure.

Actually, he's worth about a hundred million in adrenaline dollars. Yeah. Yeah. We're basing that on an article by Stephanie Watson, who talked to a very legendary bounty hunter by the name of Bob Burton, right? Yeah. You saw the picture of him, right? I did. And he looks like a total bad dude. Yeah. Carrying the shotgun and the cowboy hat. He has awesome quotes and I just wish we had Sam Elliott in the studio to read them. That'd be pretty cool. That'd be awesome.

Yeah. Bob Burton in, I believe, 2007? Yes. 2007 made 20,000 arrests. Yeah. He and his agents. Yeah. And he's personally made many, many thousand over the last 25 years that he's been in business. Yeah. He's director of the National Enforcement Agency. Yeah.

I guess that's just the name of his company, right? Yeah. So we'll be leaning on him a little bit for some pointers about bounty hunting, right? Yeah. Can we go ahead and issue the first quote? Yeah. God, I wish we had Sam Elliott. As bounty hunters, we're driving around bad neighborhoods talking to stupid people, drinking cold coffee and looking for bad guys, and they talk about the glory of it all. For every buck we make arresting someone, we make a thousand in Adrena dollars.

Right. So he's talking about just the rush of it all. Sure. You run up on a bad guy and you've got your gun in his mouth and you're saying, like, try something, try something and you're pumping. Adrena dollars, buddy. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

So Jesse James would be worth about 100 million in Adrena, or 10% of that is what the bounty hunter would earn, right? Sure. Is the cat out of the bag? I'm not supposed to announce? No, yeah, no, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, they usually get, I think, 10 to 20% of the total amount of bail, right?

Yeah. So they will get this from the bail bondsman. So the bail bondsman obviously doesn't have to pay or not pay the huge amount. Well, yeah, let's recap real quick. When you go to jail, if you contract the services of a bail bondsman, the bail, you pay them a 10% premium and the bail bondsman tells the court, I got this guy. Yes. Technically, this person's in my custody and I will see to it that he or she makes it

to the court appearance, right? Right. And in the meantime, you're out free. And if you skip, then that means supposedly that the bail bondsman is on the hook for you to pay your entire bail. So you gave the bail bondsman a 10% premium, say it was $5,000. They're on the hook to pay the $50,000, right? Indeed.

If they are in a county or a state where they're not, where they don't have the local court system and the local commissioners in their back pocket, then they might actually have to pay that bail. Right. And so they send a bounty hunter after you. Right. OK, so the bounty hunter works for the bail bondsman. Rarely are they one in the same.

Yeah. Two different professions. Chuck, you said back in the wild west, there used to be one imposter that said dead or alive, right? Yeah. It's pretty infrequent these days. A dead thing? Yeah, the dead part.

Yeah, because you want to obviously collect your money and you cannot, as a bounty hunter, bring in a dead suspect because that does no one any good. You don't get any payment and you cannot even do the old rough them up. No, because you can bring a roughed up fugitive to the jail all day long and they're going to say, we're not taking them because the fugitive could say, oh, actually, it was the county that did this to me because they have deeper pockets in the bail or the bounty hunter who did. So yeah, so the idea is to bring them in as gently as possible without excessive force.

And I think they said only three to 4% of the suspects even put up a fight and usually that's just, I'll try to run or I'll swarm around. It's not truly like some big violent confrontation. That was a Bob Burton's estimate. OK. Yeah, but I imagine that's probably pretty exemplary of the rest of the field, right? Yeah. And he also, Bob pointed out that an experienced bounty hunter can make 50 to 80 and

probably up to 100 grand a year provided they don't have like a TV show or a book deal. Right. Which we'll get to in a moment as well. We said in the last podcast that when you sign a bail bond contract, you are signing a document that is unlike any other you're going to ever sign for the rest of your life. Yeah, I didn't know that. You are waiving some serious, serious constitutional rights. Uh-huh.

For one, you are giving the bounty hunter more jurisdiction over capturing you than any police agency. Yeah, you're basically giving them permission to come after you and use almost any kind of means necessary to come and get you. Right. You're waiving any right to extradition within the United States and you're also saying that, you know what, you don't have to read me my Miranda rights and if you know where I live, you can come into my house to try to arrest me as long as you're sure that

it's my house. Let's talk about that. This is amazing that bounty hunters actually have way, way more leeway than cops do. They don't have to have warrants, they can just bust into your house, they can go through your mail, go through your trash, obviously they can tip off, go behind the scenes and do some more unscrupulous things. As long as no one knows about it, then it's all well and good. Yeah, Burton mentioned that he'll tip anywhere from 50 to 300 bucks for like a motel

clerk or bartender or a bouncer to give them a call if you show up. And what do they need to do this, Josh? Very, very little. Not very much. No, it depends. It depends on the state and in Kentucky, Illinois and Oregon, you're not going to find any bounty hunters, you're not going to find any bail bonding companies either. But like we said that you wave your right to extradition or right against extradition

within the United States. So these states are aware that people do come to their states to flee as fugitives. Because no bounty hunters are there. Right, and a bounty hunter is going to come into their state after them. Now say like Kentucky, you can make an arrest as a bounty hunter in Kentucky, but you have to go to their court system first and say, I need a warrant. Yeah, this is actually a pretty, I think it would be the ultimate deal for the bounty hunter is if your suspect goes to Kentucky because basically you go, you get a court

order and then the judge will have a police officer do the dirty work. Yeah, that's Illinois. And arrest the person and then you can have them remanded to your custody so you get the award. Right. So you don't even have to capture them. No, you don't, but I imagine it's probably, if you're a bounty hunter, you probably hate working with the cops because it slows things down, you're

critic and you're not used to playing by the same rules that they are. Yeah, so I imagine it probably is a fly in the ointment when you have to go get somebody in Illinois or something like that. Can they do anything, Josh, they want to, are they completely above the law? No, definitely not. There's one sterling example of what you can't do is cross international lines in pursuit of a fugitive. That's bad news.

One place you don't want to go is Mexico. Yes, that is dog, the alleged racist bounty hunter who has a TV show on A&E. And I call him that because he was famously spouted a bunch of nasty racist things. Did you hear that recording? Yeah, he seems like a big jerk, to be honest, allegedly. But yeah, he actually caught a very famous criminal in Mexico. Yeah, it was Andrew Luster who was the Max Factor heir back in 2003.

You remember that, it was a big deal. Oh yeah, and he got in big trouble for it. He first recouped some of his share of the million bucks and then Mexico said, wait a minute, it's illegal here, you are under arrest, sir, but we'll let you out on bail. Well, they did let him out on bail and his entire job is to bring people back who skip out on bail and he skipped out on bail. He did.

Mexico wanted to extradite this guy, but by that time, he'd already made a name for himself, he was a famous TV star, so Condoleezza Rice writes a letter on his behalf to Mexico saying, just drop extradition, and Mexico's like, no. I'd like to vouch for dog, because I wonder if that's what the letter said. Yeah, I'm sure. Mexico said, no, we're not going to extradite, and the court said, send them to us, he's yet to been sent to them. Well, they dropped the charges.

Oh, they did. Yeah, a couple of years ago, they dropped the charges. So he's off. He's off scot-free, and he's doing his thing. His TV show is suspended for a little while because of the racist remarks in this whole Mexico thing, but it's going strong again. Yeah, because the American public is, they'll forgive you if you will bust down doors on TV for them.

Yeah, who wrote this, actually? This is Stephanie Watson. Stephanie Watson wrote about Dog the Bounty Hunter, his mulleted militia. I thought that was really good. The other thing, Josh, I thought was interesting that they cannot do, and this seems like a pretty big loophole, is they cannot enter the home of a friend or family member to catch you. No.

So it seems like you should just hide out with a friend or family. No, it's becoming quite clear that if you or I ever jump bail, jump bond, right? Sure. We should go stay at the house of a friend or family member in Kentucky. Okay, yeah. I actually do know people in Kentucky. Okay, I need their address. I could go stay with Stacy Horn's parents.

They'd be glad to have me. Well, that was smart Chuck. But they can't come and get me, who cares? They can sit outside the house in the moment you come out, buddy. I'd just, I'd be a shut-in. Okay. Chuck's got it all worked out. I do.

All right, Chuck. But yeah, just about everything else they can do. Sure. Can't rough you up. No. Can't go into Mexico, although they can. Oh, yeah, clearly. They do, and they can't go into the houses of friends or family members.

Right. What are they doing? Like, they're using everything else at their disposal, right? Yeah, they're doing stuff that probably a good detective might do. They're accessing your files and your records, phone records, maybe credit card receipts. Yeah. Asking around on the street, trying to find out where you like to hang out

and shoot pool, that kind of thing. Yeah. And then you stake it out like a cop would, you know? Yeah, some of them use, like, spy gadgets. Yeah. Like, pinhole cameras, that kind of thing. Night vision goggles. Yeah, that'd be cool.

And then, but yeah, it seems like a stakeout is probably one of the bigger parts of the job of a bounty hunter. Yes. Several hours, several days. I would imagine hours if you're really, really lucky. Yeah. And then you make the arrest. Right, Josh, but that's not the most important thing they have to their advantage, is it?

No. Stephanie points out it is what? The element of surprise. Yeah, yeah, I like this. Sure. You can, you're not a police officer. Nope. So you can totally trick anybody any way you can, so you dress up as a meter reader

to get into that house of your friend or family member, right? Sure. Yeah, candy. And all of a sudden they open the door, you say you're a UPS guy, and then no Miranda, no nothing, they just bust in there and put you down the ground. Yeah, that's pretty hinky. It is a little hinky. But it is a real job, it's bona fide.

And you're saying you guys can do this to me when you sign your bail bond contract. Well, exactly, that's the key. Josh, do they carry guns? Oh, yeah, they carry guns. Heck yeah. Depending on the state, you may have to license it with the state in Georgia, where we live. Yes. You have to be 25, you have to have a gun license.

No check. You have to work for only one bail bond. And this is kind of a big deal. There are freelance bounty hunters who will work for anybody. Non-bushido code bounty hunters. Right. Okay. And a lot of states say, no, no, no, you can't do that.

You can be a bounty hunter, but you have to work for an express bail bondsman. And they have to have you on their books, and it can only be him. And if you show up in someone else's books, you're in huge trouble. Right. So you're still a freelancer. Technically, you're not on their staff. In some cases, yes. You're an independent contractor, but you exclusively work with that person.

Right. I think it can go either way. Legally speaking, I don't know practically speaking, but legally speaking, you could either be on their staff or you could be an independent contractor. But once you're contracted with one bail bondsman or bail bonding company, that's it. Gotcha. You know?

Okay. But there are states that allow freelancers. Which ones are those? Do you know? I think it's more, most states allow it rather than fewer states. Gotcha. I know Florida, North Carolina, and South Carolina have rules about freelancing. Well, that's all we care about because we're likely to get arrested here in the Southeast.

Sure. Okay. But not by a freelancer. I got another quote from Mr. Burton. Josh, are you ready? Let's hear it. It's very difficult for a wife to say to her husband when he's walking out the door at midnight with a shotgun, have a nice day at the office.

Yeah. So he said the worry factor, it's still, even though it's usually nonviolent, it's, you know, you're going out on your own without the protection of a police officer as well. Right. So that's a little scary. And there was one other trick that, um, that Burton points out, uh, and it's called finding out the Judas. Yeah.

Remember, we said that in the, uh, bail bonding episode that, uh, in most cases, the bail bond company takes something in collateral from say, uh, your parents, say the title of your parents' house. Sure. Let's say you skip bail anyway. Your parents are probably going to be fairly pissed at you for doing that. Yeah. And now all of a sudden they may say, you know what, I want him back here because

I want to keep my house. Right. So Burton figures out who you've wronged by jumping bail or possibly who you wronged in the first place to get arrested, like a drug dealer, something like that. Uh, and then he'll go, he'll find that person and get the information of where you are, where you like to shoot pool as you put it. All right. That's the Judas, obviously named from the Bible.

Uh, I was about to say Bible character, but I guess the Judas is a real person. Sold out Jesus. That's probably not a real popular name, baby name. What do you think? I don't like Judas and Adolf are right. Right. Yeah. He's going to lose the first and Chuck, lastly, how do you get to be a bounty

hunter, believe it or not, dude, there are schools who are starting to have programs and bounty hunters and degrees. I'm not sure what schools. Oh, I can guess, but they're out there. Sure. And is it like evening and weekend schools, that kind of thing? Probably. Or maybe online schools, which I have to say are gaining more and more accreditation

and credibility. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, before we leave though, I wanted to point out one of the cool little tricks I saw is they'll, they'll rig certain things ahead of time to make it harder for you to escape. Like if they know they're going to go to your house, they'll go to your car first and like jam something in the keyhole, like paper.

Yeah. So if they, if they get away out the back door, all of a sudden they're at their car fumbling with their keys and you walk up with your taser and put them down on the ground or just run and put your, your gun in their mouth. Yeah, you can do that too. And you can be a female. We keep saying him a lot. Yeah.

Yeah, he pointed out that, um, you know, it's a judgment call in the use of force. He said, if you're, um, coming up to a 25 year old girl who, uh, was wanted for kiting checks, he's going to say, look, just come with us. We don't want to handcuff you. That's probably how it usually goes down. Sure. Uh, not like in the movies. You ever seen a good bounty hunter movie?

Uh, dead man. Yeah. Dead man's a good one. We talked about that. What about my favorite Josh was, uh, besides midnight run on the comedy and was the hunter, Steve McQueen's final picture. I never saw that. It's a good one.

I don't know that I've ever seen a Steve McQueen movie. What? Yeah. You never seen bullet. No, you never seen the Great Escape. I think I have seen most of the Great Escape. Isn't Dustin Hoffman in there with some really thick, copile glasses? No, that's Papillon.

Okay. Well, then I've seen Papillon. Steve McQueen was in that though. Okay. So I have seen a Steve McQueen movie. Yeah. Check out the hunter. It's his last movie in 1980.

I always confuse the Great Escape with Hogan's Heroes. Yeah, similar. Yeah. Is that it? That is it. Are we done bounty hunting? We are. That was our two part suite.

Again, check out the NPR expose. I guess you could call it on bail bonning in the United States. It's, it's pretty eye opening. Um, you're always going to want to keep at least a hundred and fifty dollars in your sock, just in case, you know? Sure. Um, and you can also find out more about bail and bounty hunting by typing those words into the search bar, howstuffworks.com, uh,

which leads us, of course, Chuck, to listener mail. Not yet, sir. Oh, yeah. No, first we are going to issue what I believe is our first ever official apology. That can't be right to a people. Well, we apologize all over the place all the time. But this is official because we inadvertently offended, uh, Jehovah's

Witnesses and the listener mail segment, uh, from last week where the kid wrote in about his uncle, who, uh, gave the blood transfusion to the Jehovah's Witness, even though they refused at first. The Portuguese doctor in Brazil. Yes. And, uh, we just, this week, it was Tuesday. Was it? Yeah.

Okay. Well, we just want to apologize officially, uh, to them because we had quite a few Jehovah's Witnesses right in and it came across as, uh, saying that, you know, they were just willing to let their kid die and there were callous and this non-Jehovah's Witnesses saved the day and blah, blah, blah, and that is not what we were thinking at the time. It was just like a, a nice hero letter in my mind. Right.

So sorry guys. We didn't know we had so many of you out there listening to us. And, uh, you also, uh, they also pointed out that bloodless surgery, um, would be a good topic and it's a very viable thing. So we're going to look into that too. Okay. So you feel better? I do.

Okay. So, uh, I guess that's it. Right. Right. And now it's time for listener mail. Yes, Josh. This is from, I'm going to call this Canadian email and we will say that this is from James K and Calgary, Alberta, which is in Canada.

Yes, it is. We've been chided for saying Calgary, Canada. That's like saying Atlanta, the United States. So that's in Alberta and he is a big, uh, devoted listener and basically has mainline them since the end of September, like so many people do. Yeah. They'll discover the podcast and listen like 150 of them and then they hate us. And, uh, not the case with James.

He says, I've listened to every podcast you have to offer and there are no more left, no more, I'm a drowning man, a wash and a sea of confusion and lethargy. I must now live day to day knowing that you will not, cannot be there beside me. I've worked my addiction up to the point of frenzy and then gone cold turkey in an instant and it hurts. It hurts more than you'll ever know. So please, please give me more. The habit might be destructive.

It might be pulling me down away from everything I formally held dear and into the pit of some cesspool of intellectual fervor, but I don't care. I want my fix. I need it. And you're the only ones that can hook me up. Yours forever, James. Wow. She could James has sent us some money.

And he actually pointed out a few stats, uh, 183 podcasts and there's a few more since he wrote in, yeah, 300, oh, sorry, 3,234 minutes. In 234 minutes of information and entertainment. I don't know about either of those. And the first podcast with me does gum really stay in your stomach for seven years. Yeah. Remember those days when we recorded in 10 can? Yep.

Five minutes in 10 can and episodes without me. He says 19. I didn't know there were that many without me, but yeah, we should probably rerecord those 19 or just erase them. No, there were some good topics in there, Chuck, erase. Okay, uh, if you have any ideas for podcast topics, so we can create new podcasts for James and all the other sysk junkies out there, pop it in an email and bang it out to stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com.

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